is there such a thing as rock bottom for a BPD?

[ogopogodude]

There is typically "rock bottom"  for an alcoholic, or a drug user, … etc.

But is there REALLY a rock bottom for a BPD?

My ex has lost her husband (me), then our kids (I have full custody), then she lost the house (me live in with our kids after it was court ordered).

What will it take for the BPD to actually "get it", …. ?

I have concluded that there is no rock bottom for a BPD. There just isn't.

[nolisan]

'Change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.'

Guess she hasn't felt enough pain ... .

My ex had a life full of pain but it was "everybody else's fault"... . no change.

Denial is a huge part of the disorder.

[Pearl55]

"The Borderline is much like a tornado that rips through your world, leaving only destruction and chaos in its wake. You can easily lose your home and family, your job or business, your health, your reputation, your friends, etc. Is he/she really worth it? You be the judge."

This almost happened to me. If you are involving with a very smart borderline, you will lose everything. You've been very lucky ogopogo

[ogopogodude]

Jeeez, ... I really did not look at it from that perspective. I guess I am in a position of "accomplishment". 

   I have been looking at things from the other perspective... . like I have been dealt a lousy hand in life by being involved with a BPD spouse that totally overturned my life as well as my kids (temporarily, anyway).

I have salvaged our children's rest of their teenager years, ... so they can have peace and calm now. That is my main goal.

Thanks for your input.

[Numbers]

I'd like to caution against thinking that we are somehow the "lucky" ones after having a borderline smash through our lives. True luck would be if an abuser never entered our lives. I am saying this just so to not get caught into expecting fruits of your pain to materialize out of nowhere and bring you bliss. With a lot of luck and even more hard work you may get you life back, but I see you already are doing a lot and I congratulate you for your successes.

About original question. I'd say no, nothing will bring a high-functioning borderline to its knees. But as "high" and "low" are really just designations created by community, I'd say that there are two types of borderlines - ones who possess the looks and charm required to sustain their lifestyle and those who do not. If a borderline still has tools to attract, he/she will perpetually be externally soothed and would most definitely not be living in a state of "constant pain". In a society of loners, there will always be victims who will fall for attention and/or sex.

So, short of something happenning to a borderline that would rob it of it's toolkit, they will merrily keep living their lives at everyone else's expense.

[ShadowDancer]

Ogopogo,

            Without a doubt yourself and your kids did indeed come out on top irregardless of your fresh wounds. About the "rock" bottom... . well if your on top that makes her already on the bottom. When and where she hits the rock... . who knows, life has a tendency to be a great leveler for us all when we least expect it. For me it's about being "prepared" and rigging your own ship to weather these storms. So when she hits that rocky beach, only time will tell, and hopefully we will not even know about it because we have moved on to voyages upon different seas.

Best of luck and times to you and your kids.

P.S. I tend to agree with 481. They do indeed just tra la la in and out of various victims lives as long as they have the looks to sustain the whornado. But the harsh truth is time waits for no one. Time passes... . looks fade. All things come to an end... . eventually.

Nothing sadder than a 50 year old histrionic waitress dressed up in tight jeans and acting like a 20 year old yo-yo and working on her 5th marriage. Oh wait... . there is something sadder... . when she is 60 and working on her 6th marriage.

[BorisAcusio]

who possess the looks and charm required to sustain their lifestyle and those who do not.

I completely agree. My exBPDgf also lost her husband, their house, her car, her job, the custody of her daughter, and also VERY low functioning with a history of drug abuse so it could mean the rock bottom but it didn't keep her away from repeating the same infiditelity-lying-betraying-entitlement cycle.

She is drop dead georgeus and a master of manipulation/seduction so for the next 10 years - she's 38 - going to have the supply of replacements keeping her floating.

[Pearl55]

Ogopogo

You are very lucky because you've got your kids. Your kids are away from a psycho. My ex is the main carer, I only see my son who is only 7 like once or twice per week. I had to choose between bad and worse and save myself first and then later my son. They are parasites!

[ShadowDancer]

who possess the looks and charm required to sustain their lifestyle and those who do not.

I completely agree. My exBPDgf also lost her husband, their house, her car, her job, the custody of her daughter, and also VERY low functioning with a history of drug abuse so it could mean the rock bottom but it didn't keep her away from repeating the same infiditelity-lying-betraying-entitlement cycle.

She is drop dead georgeus and a master of manipulation/seduction so for the next 10 years - she's 38 - going to have the supply of replacements keeping her floating.

The one that took her pound from me is now 47 with the made for sinning body of a 20 year old. Unworldly how she maintains that gift with the hard life she lives. Drugs, drinking, promiscuity, loss of worldly possessions, so many geographic moves I can't even count. Like a gypsy from one lover to another at the drop of a zipper and still going strong. Boris if it was not for the age difference I'd have to say we know the very same creature. I remember seeing her there in all her glory in the soft flickering of the firelight as she walked across the room to my arms... . I remember thinking how absolutely gorgeous she looked in that instant and the thought crossed my mind... . perfect... . if it was not for the whoreiffic tattoos and the emotional where for all of a 10 year old.  

[Pearl55]

I wish my husband was a low functioning one, high functioning ones are most dangerous ones. How could I prove a psychiatrist is not well himself?  Everyone thinks I'm the carzy one.

[ShadowDancer]

I wish my husband was a low functioning one, high functioning ones are most dangerous ones. How could I prove a psychiatrist is not well himself?  Everyone thinks I'm the carzy one.

Ahh Pearl... . I have read your postings with some interest... . I have come to appreciate you in your candid sharing of your healing journey. I don't think your crazy at all. As a matter of fact... . YOU COOL!

P.S. I have also read that shrinks are often the worst sort of stealth narcs that are known.

[janey62]

The thing I noticed about my pwuBPD is that he copes with his life in small bursts.  Things will be terrible for him, he will be aware that he is perilously close to rock bottom, so he will go stay with friends, or in an expensive hotel, or go walkabout for 3 days, get on a train and go exploring, or make a whole new group of friends in the pub.  He will temporarily forget how bad he is feeling.  He's very good at displacement activities and so hops over the real crisis.

He will remember at some point and get really low and suffer huge remorse and feelings of self loathing, but just in time pick himself up.  Denial forms a large part of his survival tool kit and it kicks back in and saves him.   He is a lot happier and functions better when not in a r/s.

I haven't experienced the type of person who hops from one r/s/bed to another.  Mine is kind of a loner.

OgopogoDude, sounds as if you managed to salvage quite a lot from your brush with BPD, which is great.  I wonder what makes you ask the question about rock bottom?  Are you worrying about her? Or wondering how much she is suffering?

Janey xx

[janey62]

Blimey Pearl, that's a tricky one!  Mine was quite high functioning too and only those very close to him are aware and affected.  I have questioned my own sanity often, for the simple reason that he is so plausible that he often seems like the sane one.

It must be hard for you. 

Janey xx

[BorisAcusio]

who possess the looks and charm required to sustain their lifestyle and those who do not.

I completely agree. My exBPDgf also lost her husband, their house, her car, her job, the custody of her daughter, and also VERY low functioning with a history of drug abuse so it could mean the rock bottom but it didn't keep her away from repeating the same infiditelity-lying-betraying-entitlement cycle.

She is drop dead georgeus and a master of manipulation/seduction so for the next 10 years - she's 38 - going to have the supply of replacements keeping her floating.

The one that took her pound from me is now 47 with the made for sinning body of a 20 year old. Unworldly how she maintains that gift with the hard life she lives. Drugs, drinking, promiscuity, loss of worldly possessions, so many geographic moves I can't even count. Like a gypsy from one lover to another at the drop of a zipper and still going strong. Boris if it was not for the age difference I'd have to say we know the very same creature. I remember seeing her there in all her glory in the soft flickering of the firelight as she walked across the room to my arms... . I remember thinking how absolutely gorgeous she looked in that instant and the thought crossed my mind... . perfect... . if it was not for the whoreiffic tattoos and the emotional where for all of a 10 year old.  

Well, they are pretty much all the same. Mine had a whoreish tatoo too, I have to add, in my post-socialist country tattoos are virtually absent in her age group especially compared to States. Also confessed that she went to a porn audition once and wanted us to participate in a paid webcam sex session when she got unemployed.

Now, she got fired again from the job I got her, in an economic situation where even a 300 dollar per month waiter job is hard to find.

[ShadowDancer]

DAYUM Boris! Completely UNCANNY! The one I knew proposed the web cam deal too. She wanted to do a site for the over 40 set. Said we'd get rich because we were simply "beautiful" together. I choked on my coffee with the proposal. She also lost the job I secured for her. Simply mind blowing in similarities. I hope yours did not break in and rob your house as the one I knew did to me. That cost me over $30,000.00 in losses in cash and goods. Then three months later she calls from jail asking me to bail her out on a separate charge. I said no. I changed my number shortly thereafter. 

[Pearl55]

  He is a lot happier and functions better when not in a r/s

Janey xx [/quote]
This is exactly true for all borderlines because they project their negative feelings and unworthiness to their partners so is best for them to be alone but they don't recognise this themselves!

[BorisAcusio]

That cost me over $30,000.00 in losses in cash and goods. Then three months later she calls from jail asking me to bail her out on a separate charge. I said no. I changed my number shortly thereafter. 

That's scary, man. You're still pretty lucky that she out of your life. I suspect they may have ASPD comorbid.

Some thoughts on the topic from a reputable member, G.J.

G.J.:

AnonNZ,

I have also noticed a difference in some poster's descriptions of their ex's.  Some seem to feel like they are simply "disordered" and are able to have quite a bit of compassion for their ex.  While others find their ex's to be unnecessarily cruel, threatening and controlling at times, and they are incredibly angry about it.

One explanation for this may be that BPD is often "comorbid" with other Personality Disorders, such as APD (Anti-Social Personality Disorder - aka Sociopath).  So, while people's whose ex's have both diagnoses can relate to a lot of what is on this board, they also have another part of things working behind the scenes that someone whose ex was purely BPD may not relate to.

[ShadowDancer]

That cost me over $30,000.00 in losses in cash and goods. Then three months later she calls from jail asking me to bail her out on a separate charge. I said no. I changed my number shortly thereafter. 

That's scary, man. You're still pretty lucky that she out of your life. I suspect they may have ASPD comorbid.

Some thoughts on the topic from a reputable member, G.J.

G.J.:

AnonNZ,

I have also noticed a difference in some poster's descriptions of their ex's.  Some seem to feel like they are simply "disordered" and are able to have quite a bit of compassion for their ex.  While others find their ex's to be unnecessarily cruel, threatening and controlling at times, and they are incredibly angry about it.

One explanation for this may be that BPD is often "comorbid" with other Personality Disorders, such as APD (Anti-Social Personality Disorder - aka Sociopath).  So, while people's whose ex's have both diagnoses can relate to a lot of what is on this board, they also have another part of things working behind the scenes that someone whose ex was purely BPD may not relate to.

Boris there are NO doubts in my mind about the cor"morbid" aspect that was eventually revealed. For sure ASP! What a nightmarish cocktail eh?

[Clearmind]

Statistically speaking 10% complete suicide - they are just the ones diagnosed. It's a very real illness and some of those that do hit rock bottom then and only then get help.

They are victims of circumstance. Exercising empathy does help us to detach. "Getting it" takes tremendous courage to overcome deep seated shame from childhood - it really is sad.

[myself]

Rock bottom may have been the original abuse.

It hasn't exactly been uphill from there.

For most, it's just too far down.

[ShadowDancer]

Yes it is true. There are times when I am capable of and do feel true empathy for them. When one takes in the big picture it truly is so very sad... . and tragic.

[Pearl55]

I do feel sorry for my ex sometimes and when I talked to my psychiatrist about it he said this is because you know for sure he's not able to change but wether you feel empathy for him or not he's not able to feel empathy for anyone and most of the time he viewed you as an idiot.

He said when you feel sorry for him Infact you feel sorry for yourself and projects it to him! It's so sad and I think it's the time to feel sorry for ourselves.

[DiamondSW]

Yes,

I think mine may well have hit rock bottom... . her work (that I arranged) has 'run out' simply because her pupils have finished the exams -so no more work there.  She seems to have fallen out of joy with the church -think she's just got bored of it.  And I think she's really got not much left in her life.  Family have all left her to her devices.  She sits in her room day after day in a student hall and I don't know what hopes/dreams she has left -just a weekly trip to the psychiatrist and a bit (maybe) of prayer.

Must be lonely.  In her case she can't even soothe via sex because I think the sexual abuse has really become too much from her teenage years.  No drinking.  No drugs.  Just a lot of emptyness and self hate.  

Maybe she's met someone.  I don't know -the fact that I got so ill must have affected her.  She's not stupid... .  she's actually a danger to men based upon her moods and emotional behaviour.  

If I could help I would (months ago)-but It's too late (and I wont now)  Sad.  What a waste.  

[janey62]

Hey DiamondSW,

That is sad and I hear that you really feel for her... .  

I think it's important for our own recovery that we try to keep an ability for empathy while trying not to get swamped by sadness... . or anger.  It's a struggle though. 

It is a cruel and evil illness and as non sufferers, no matter how badly we've allowed ourselves to be treated, it is so important to remember that they are ill and didn't ask for this... .

Just be aware of the potential here for FOG though (fear, obligation and guilt) around your ex.  That doesn't help either. 

The way I let go in the end was by realising that I was making him worse, even though I desperately wanted to help him.  It was me in the end that became the trigger for his misery and the target of his rage.  I feel so much better knowing that I'm not doing that any more. 

Janey xx

[DiamondSW]

Hello Janey,

I don't feel the FOG any more really... . maybe the fear, not the other 2. 

I think the diagnosis is a good 'reason' for her actions, but equally I think she knew exactly what she was doing.  If she's got enough talent to extract tens of thousands of pounds off her mother, she's got enough brain cells working to recognise that if she kicks a person enough, he physically cant get up.  She lacked empathy, yes, but she knew the difference b/w right and wrong. 

The only thing that keeps this woman off rock bottom is her mums money... . and that keeps her there as it means she never has to 'grow up' and face the real world. 

A gilded cage and she's the miserable cockatoo in the middle plucking out her own feathers!  Her mother's the cruel owner looking on at something pretty, but never giving it freedom or love.  And cockatoos live a loong time... . what a boring life/existence 

[Iwalk-Heruns]

The way I see it is hitting rock bottom for a healthy person means assessing your situation, understanding your role in it and making changes to your decisions and behaviors.

The problem is with a BPD they are not able to reflect and learn from their behaviors. All rock bottom means to them is to cling to the life raft even tighter and that is at the expense of using someone else to save themselves temporarily. Until the pain of rock bottom wears off and devaluations sets in and they are on to someone else.

I have seen this played out over and over. In fact I am watching it right now. Have been no Contact for months now with BPD but because of certain circumstances I am able to see from a distance as of the last couple of days the relationship he left me for seems to be imploding. He seems visibly distressed.

Very hard for me to watch because I am barely recovered from our relationship and he is already been through all phases of another relationship and looks like it is in the demise phase. Surreal really.

I bet my bottom dollar this will not be a cause for change or any aha moment but just a move on to the next one. It's like life or death to them. They cannot be alone. They will soothe their emotions and fill their emptiness at all cost to themselves and anyone who is in the wrong place at the right time. Wash rinse repeat!

[janey62]

I hear what you're both saying, and agree their behaviour is cruel and incomprehensible and seems to lack any conscience and they will show no empathy at the time of their actions/behaviour. 

My ex is confusing me though because he will and has shown me that he feels bad about what he's said and done afterwards.  It may not last because he can't stand the uncomfortable feelings facing this brings, but it is there. 

That's when he gets depressed and full of self loathing.  He will writhe in agony and cry and say that he hates himself.  This is then followed by a period of calm lasting between i day and several weeks.  But the idealisation and elation creeps in and he goes up then gets brittle and sensitive to noise, people, me, and soon he crashes and takes everything with him usually devaluing me and/or escaping.  That's when he has to make it my fault and try to make himself feel better and deny what he's done.  Like you said, wash rinse repeat!  But there is a moment when he sees clearly what he is and what he's done.  Maybe they don't all have that?

It's almost as if, from what I've read here that there are pwBPD who's behaviour is just more extreme and they are much more vindictive.  Mine never actually did anything to hurt me either physically or materially.  The opposite in fact, because he felt bad he was quite generous with his money, trying to compensate me in a way, though when in a phase he would accuse me of using him etc.  He would pay money into my bank account because he was worried that I didn't have enough, but then would say I was a gold digger... . even though I'd never asked him for any of it.

He also never sought to have a new relationship while we were together or after we split up yet. 

My other thought is that a lot of pwBPD commit suicide.  I guess that's rock bottom.  Even if their motives for doing it are to hurt someone else.  My mother did this.  I think she had co morbid BPD and anxiety and depression and possibly other things too... . she was certainly histrionic, violent and lacked the ability to control her impulses.  She did feel guilty, but I always dreaded that because if often led to suicide attempts. 

Maybe like everything else, there are no rules which apply to all, there are always exceptions.  I hear from a lot of you that your ex was vindictive and dangerous and seemed to have no empathy.  That sucks.  Mine was passive, avoidant, abandoning, devaluing, escapist, verbally abusive, irrational and unpredictable but ultimately sad and guilt ridden.  I know he suffers all the time, except when he's successfully managing to distract himself with new and exciting things. 

Janey