Is it possible to communicate with pBPD?

[karma_gal]

So I posted a few days ago that after years and years of chaos I finally asked my BPDH to leave our home and have decided to file for divorce.

I should have listened to you guys and never answered his e-mails.  So he was going on and on and on about how I was so verbally abusive and that's why the marriage didn't work out.  I knew better than to take the bait, but I did anyway.  I'm not sure if I needed a reason to be pissed off tonight or if I was looking for cheap entertainment or I'm just stupid.  So I reply back, "Can you please articulate for me how you think I was verbally abusive to you?"  I will say that there absolutely were times that I have yelled at him because I could not take another minute of the circular arguments, the crazy accusations that came from nowhere, the projection, the gaslighting.  I should have walked away, but I didn't.  I yelled and screamed and became a complete maniac sometimes because I just wanted him to shut up; I wanted the chaos, the delusions, the insanity to just stop.   

I get back this super long e-mail.  Trust me, that in and of itself is a huge deal; normally I would get two or three words at best because he uses his phone.  Not this time; it went on and on and on about -- what else? -- his feelings.  He told me that I've made him feel like crap, worthless, stupid, ignorant... . the list goes on and on.  He seriously must have spent hours composing this e-mail about his feelings, yet did not give a single example of how I was verbally abusive to him.

So I e-mail him back and say, "Look, I appreciate the time you took to put that together, but that is not what I was looking for.  We are divorcing and I'm not interested in your feelings anymore.  You accused me of being abusive and that bothers me, so I was really looking for concrete examples of how you contend I was abusive so that I can be sure to address it in therapy."

I get yet another e-mail going on and on on about more of his feelings that I guess he didn't cover the first time.

This is insane and highlights one of the biggest issues we had:  He simply does not know how to communicate about anything.  Is this normal for these guys?  How is it that they can take something so easy, so normal like having a conversation and turn it into this giant fiasco where nothing gets accomplished, ever, and make it all about him, when he was supposed to be telling me how I screwed up? 

This has bothered me for a long time and I actually have gone out of my way to ask people I know -- bosses, colleagues, friends, relatives, health professionals -- whether I have a communication problem I need to address.  In every instance, I have been told that I communicate very well and that that was one area I needed no help in.  So clearly the problem is him.  I don't get it. 

[Tausk]

Congrats on your decision.  It must be very difficult for you right now, but it gets better.  Stay on the board and learn about the Disorder.

If you ex is BPD, then communication is very difficult.  For example, his emotions rule his thought process. So if he feels hurt, you must be evil.  And his feelings are always right even if there is no basis in reality.  It's a disorder.  It's bat sht crazy.   Mine would tell me I was abusive all the time, and when I asked how... . I'd get the reptilian eyes with no answer. 

He can't communicate anymore clearly than a traumatized three year old who lives in his own nightmare of terror, fear, and abandonment.  Try and have compassion.  Or at least, try and depersonalize it.   It's not about you.  It's about his incapacity to process emotions as a fully developed human would.  It's very sad. 

It's might get crazier, but you will be better.  Be careful about him stalking, encroachment of boundaries, inappropriate behavior, and the smear campaign.  He's going to tell everyone he can, how terrible and evil you are.  He will believe his words, even if there is no basis. 

Hang in there and continue to read.

[Ironmanrises]

Before you trigger the pwBPD, Yes. After you trigger the pwBPD, No. At least that is how it was for me. Communication with my Medusa became impossible after she was triggered into the other side. I was viewed as "all bad" and thus any communication from me(even me breathing), bothered her. Literally.

[karma_gal]

Thanks, guys, for making me feel a little bit better.  I read those e-mails and I was speechless, and angry, and so over it.  It truly is like trying to communicate with a traumatized three year old -- maybe worse. 

Yes, he is bat hit crazy.  He has been for years, and I hopped aboard the Crazy Train and went along for the ride with him for way too long.  I am beyond glad that I decided to hop off.  As I said, I think I was just looking for a reason to be pissy or something because my life has been so incredibly calm since he left that I almost don't know how to function like this. 

Like I said, I know I have yelled at him, mostly telling him to shut up, to just stop.  There have been times where I have called him names during those arguments that lasted six, seven, eight hours and he just would not stop.  While it was usually after I had been called some pretty vulgar stuff, I was still wrong for slinging mud with him.  I understand that that is considered verbally abusive.  But I know for sure that I was never just this abusive machine who set out or went so far as to wear him down, kill his self-esteem, and leave him blubbering in a corner because I was so mean.  That's why I really, really wanted him to tell me how I was verbally abusive from his standpoint, with concrete examples. 

In the final moments one of the arguments was over his laziness.  He had literally sat around here for three months doing nothing aside from going to work and watching TV.  Had helped with nothing.  Wouldn't even bring trash cans back six feet to the side of the garage even though he walked by them twice a day.  I said to him, "You have been disgustingly lazy and there is no excuse for you doing absolutely nothing to help out around here."  From that, he heard that I called him disgusting and repulsive; said I was controlling because I was telling him that he could never watch TV again; and that I thought he was ignorant and stupid.  I never said any such things.  I said he had been disgustingly lazy.  That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.  I say one thing, pretty clearly, and he hears all this other stuff and then the war is on again.  I just will never understand how this can be. 

I'm so glad that he is going to be someone else's problem now. 

[MrFox]

I will second what Ironman said.  Before my ex was triggered, we actually had pretty good communication.  When she would start to get worked up, I was generally able to calm her down.  Once she was fully triggered, nothing I did or said mattered a single bit.  One minute I was her "soul-mate" and "made for her" and "perfect", the next I was evil, vile, and disgusting.  I tried twice to communicate with her since she devalued me, both times were pointless.  I stopped because it didn't matter.

[Tincup]

I actually agree 100% with Ironman and MrFox.  I was able to calm mine down generally, but once she crossed a certain threshold (fully triggered) nothing mattered a single bit.  Anything I said or did was used against me from that point on. 

Actually the most frustrating for me was either not being able to talk her down (or not knowing if I was successful in talking her down), or not even knowing if she was triggered until I walked into it... . God BPD is frustrating.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Karma Gal, No, I doubt you have a communication problem, and yes, communication is extremely difficult with a pwBPD, particularly after they are triggered (forget about it).  I have a folder full of long-winded emails from my BPDxW, much like the ones you describe.  They consist of long harangues about how terrible I am but zero responsibility on her part.  I have to remind myself that she is neither reasonable nor rational.  So, I would take those messages with a grain of salt.  I admire your decision to move on.  Lucky Jim

[GreenMango]

I do think it is possible to have a conversation if the person isn't ... . As Spock says ... . emotionally compromised.  It's looks like you are the one to leave (happy for you btw it's big move) and he's pretty triggered about it.  Which if he has abandonment issues isn't going to go well for him and be pretty traumatized.

I've been in your shoes about the saying one thing and having it interpreted in catastrophic and out of context way leading to me being "mean" though too.

You asked if it's possible to communicate with a person normally and it is sometimes.  It just special set of skills.  A lot of centered around validating feelings, not validating invalid things, and boundaries.

And sounds like you've reached a limit and you are right you aren't responsible to validate or caretake his feelings anymore.  I dont know Iif you are for long protracted divorce if you are I'd go with LuckyJim on not picking up these gauntlets anymore it just wears a person out and prolongs the conflict.  And sometimes negative aattention is just as rewarding as positive attention when it the onlything kleft.

How is the rest of your moving on plan going?

[blue_skies_ahead]

Karma Gal,

My sitch was very close to yours.  Hours and hours of circituitous discussions where his mind was never on what you were trying to resolve but casting blame and his next insane argument.  I recall one time after hours and hours of hightened conversation that left us both emotionally, mentally and physically drained, at the very end, when I thought perhaps we had made a modest gain, he pulled his chuckwagon right back to the front of the line and I just threw my hands up in resignment. 

He loved to raise his voice as a means of control.  He couldn't bring it down no matter how often you mentioned it, so I kind took on his tick and began yelling back and after hours, would say things I regretted, like asking him if he had a developmental impairment because nothing was computing.  Don't beat yourself up too bad about that.  We are all only human after all and they push us to our limits of understanding, care and tolerance.  It's like fly fishing - a sport - to them only they are at mastery level and we're novices.

I used to feel like my exBPDH flip flopped between a female-like role - waifish - pretending to faint - getting hysterical - threatening to self harm and SOBBING ... . I mean UNCONTROLLABLE with snot pouring out and hyperventillating to the point where I was ready to call an ambulance - THEN it would switch to the raised voice, referring to himself in 3rd person, demanding, demeaning, slamming doors and throwing things, peeling out in his car - RAGING.  I wonder if this is the identity disturbance they talk about with BPD?

Anyhoo - congrats on making a decision to get some space and sanity back.  Be ready for charming and keep up with your therapy.  It was through therapy that I finally got strong enough to put up boundaries that IMMEDIATELY were attacked and my therapist maligned.  In short, give yourself the same love and attention that you once gave away because you need to build yourself up and heal from your trauma.  I know I do.

[blue_skies_ahead]

"charming" was "charming" but it changed after I posted ... . idk?

[blue_skies_ahead]

Is H O O V E R I N G a bad word on here or something?  It keeps changing it to CHARMING?  !

[karma_gal]

You guys are so freaking awesome!  Seriously, thanks so much for being here for me when I needed to vent, reminding me why any contact at all at this point is probably not a good until (at least not until he settles down a bit), and to be kind to myself, because I've been beating myself up pretty badly.  

Blue_skies_ahead, WOW, those circular conversations drove me to the brink of insanity, and I mean that quite literally.  I spent some time thinking about it last night and was ashamed of myself how low I let myself go sometimes to join him on his level.  I have never acted like that in my life, and have no clue where it came from.  Like you I've challenged him on perhaps having mental impairments because he never seemed to comprehend anything at all.  Of course, I used much harsher words than that.  

And trust me, I know how far they push us, and how after a while the only thing to do is push back or walk away.  Unfortunately, I always chose to push back and I need to figure out why.  I can't figure out if I really thought I was going to get through to him, if I wanted to yell and scream like a banshee and tell him how stupid he is in the hopes that he would have an epiphany and agree with me, or if I just really needed an outlet for all of the anger and resentment and since he wouldn't let me leave the house without raging or going with me I had no other outlet except to unleash on him.  I'm pretty sure it's the last one.  There was just never anywhere to go, anywhere to turn and get away from his crap day in and day out.  If I ever tried to leave, he would rage and I would just stay home because it was easier.  If I really needed space, he would insist on coming with me, so I would either take him with me or everyone stayed home; he followed me everywhere in the house, even to the restroom.  I know I made those choices and should have just left him to rage all he wanted and went and did my thing, and I need to figure out why I didn't.  God knows he raged about something else anyway.  

He did call today to talk about taxes, and it turned into a disaster.  It was another crazy-a$$ conversation that made no sense, with him telling me again about how he feels.  I told him again as nicely as I could that I just really didn't give two f&^^s anymore about his feelings and that my role as his mother, therapist, and life planner was over; he was going to have to go to therapy and work the rest out.  

Lesson learned from all of this.  I'll just have to get used to calm and peace in my life and never, ever again think that he can act normally.  Lord knows I should've gotten that message long before now!  

GreenMango:

So far, everything is going okay.  I've been really busy with work this week so that's kept my mind occupied.  I've started sending out resumes for a "real" job so that I know I have steady income, but my freelance work just kicked up another notch today, too.  I have plans to join a friend out for drinks this weekend, and I'm going to spend Sunday cleaning my house and rearranging my room.  I haven't slept in a bedroom in seven years, always sleeping on the couch.  It was usually because he snored so loud, but also because if I was in the bed, he pushed to be intimate to the point where it was nauseating.  So I'm going to have a bedroom proper by the end of the weekend and I'm pretty excited about that!  I've only cried once this week and quickly shook it off.  Honestly, I think I've known the marriage was so dead for so long that I've done a majority of the grieving already.  There's not much to miss at this point. 

[karma_gal]

Is H O O V E R I N G a bad word on here or something?  It keeps changing it to CHARMING?  !

LOL, thanks for posting this because for some reason it made me laugh out loud.  It is a bad word for those of us who have to deal with it, but I can't imagine why the site won't let it be typed out.  Hilarious.  It's the new four-letter four

[rodrod]

Boy, do I feel every single word of what you wrote, and can 1,000,000% relate to what you are talking about. 

The circular arguments, the topic changing, the accusations, the counter attacks, the insults, and all of the rest are impossibly frustrating at times.  Very very hard to stay emotionally detached from the BPD's when all a person wants is a discussion about some small thing that went wrong and the BPD isn't ever ever going to give that and is of course not capable of giving that.  Did I say impossibly frustrating, because if I didn't say impossibly frustrating, then I'll say impossibly frustrating.

I completely understand being dragged into those raging arguments.  The lack of validation and lack of addressing anything said when there is a problem makes me believe that sometimes it's not possible to communicate with BPDs.  At least not when they are in their groove.  At other times, when they are not triggered, yes, communication is possible, but it's so tricky to get to the heart of a problem when you don't know when the BPD is going to go off.  Validating the BPD's feelings helps, but it's so hard sometimes to pour in so much understanding when so little is returned at times.  And, it's just so un-fulfilling to live that way after a long period of time - at least it was for me.

I feel your frustration and I know how easy it is to get drawn back into the e-mails and the text messages and that phone calls time and time again especially when you think that possibly there will be some acknowledgement this time around.  But no, there isn't.  The human need for understanding is so strong, and the frustration so equally strong when we don't get it we go back in for another round of trying to get what we need from the BPD that we love but cannot reach.  We charge in time and time again only to get rebuffed time and time again.  It seems to me that we are fighting against out own very deep human nature when we walk away from an argument with our BPDs that we love because in the argument all we want is a small bit of validation that we need so bad at times and are not going to get.  I think, if it's possible, we need to give ourselves a break from being reeled back in time and time again because of our deep and basic need to be heard and really and truly communicate with our mates, BPD or not.  For me personally, NC is the only way I was ever able to break the cycle, and it broke my heart to leave the BPD that I loved, but eventually it was the only way.  Just a bit of my perspective.  Hope it makes sense and hope it helps.  Wish you and me and all of the rest of us were not here sharing our pain.

[iluminati]

Lovely thread, but believe it or not, karma_gal, you got your straight answer.  He believes that you are responsible for his feelings, and for not managing them just so, you were wrong.  Is it a ridiculous answer?  I would agree.  But it is what he *feels*.  You've obviously decided to go a different direction, but it's clear that he felt your job was to manage your feelings.  That's your take home message. 

Now the next step is to figure out how to deal with being responsible for someone else's emotions and how to move forward from there.