When they go "no contact" does it ever result in...

[mybonnie]

a form of remorse or objectivity on the part of the BPD person who has shut us out?

In other words, does the space and time away from us ever bring about a balance in their minds, where they actually remember all the good and miss us? 

Or is that just wishful thinking.

I suppose my next reading will be along the lines of how to fill the gigantic sad void.  I read suggestions that say to get involved with others and start new hobbies (ha, my D often accused me of making it a hobby to ruin her life so I don't like the word "hobby" that much).  But my point is that these light and airy suggestions seem such shallow substitutes for filling the loss of a relationship with my daughter.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[woodsposse]

I am so sorry to hear where you are.  It is not a good feeling.

But know this, I personally know exactly how you feel.  And I'm sure pretty much everyone here know that feeling.

You ask a good question, and I'm sure others can answer it a little more fully than me, but I'll try with what I know.

I don't think it is a matter of balancing out and remember all the good and miss us.  I tend to believe they know the good and remember it - but it isn't a question of getting shut out because of the "bad".

If they are BPD ... . there is something else at work instead of rational thought which is governed by rational thought.

Outside of the reading of suggestions such as doing other hobbies and such, I would suggest reading some more about what it really is to have this disorder.  You may not be fully able, at this time, to understand what they are going through because we are on the other side.

But through the shared experiences and the fantastic posts and articles here, perhaps you can start to understand (conceptually) what they are going through and how you can better deal with everything.

I know it may not seem like much right now - but please know you are not alone.  And there is a light of understanding and compassion at the end of the tunnel.

[jellibeans]

Dear mybonnie

I don't think there is anything that can take the place of your dd... . that is a hole you will always have. Although the pain you must feel from this separation is intense maybe you can feel content in knowing that it might be giving your dd the pain relief she needs right now... . your relationship is that painful to her? If I would look at it that way then that might give me some comfort that I am helping her in that way.

What I think is very common pwBPD is that things are always changing... . and just when you think this is how it is going to be... . sure enoguh it changes again... . for now your dd doesn't want contact but that doesn't mean she will always feel that way.

Sending a hug your way  

[mybonnie]

Thanks, friends (I feel like you are)... . all the reading, documentary watching and recent therapy is helping me to both understand and to pass the time but then I find myself alone and unable to escape my thoughts of her, my guilt for her condition, and not knowing where she is or if she is okay.

I do like the suggestion that the separation is giving her the relief from pain she needs right now.  I like to picture her surrounded by supportive and sympathetic friends and getting good nutrition and sleep.  I hope and pray that is the case. 

Thank you.

[lever.]

I am sorry to hear about your situation. I know that it is extremely upsetting.

I don't think that time will give your DD objectivity or remorse. It is part of the disorder to re-act mainly from emotional mind...

However I do think that time might allow some of the strong emotion to subside and then she might start to remember some of the positive things about your relationship and begin to miss you.

I very nearly found myself in the same situation recently and had a lot of support on this site and also found it helpful to read Valerie Porr's book.

I also found that, although it is difficult to do, building up aspects of my own life was helpful.

I joined a mindfulness meditation group and worked on radical acceptance.

My initial instinct was to write a long letter to my DD trying to put things right, but I learned on here that trying to explain things was only likely to inflame the situation and alienate her further.

Instead I reached out in a few short e-mails in which I validated her feelings of anger and hurt. I also said that I would accept her decision to go NC if that reduced the stress in her life.

I used a sentence from Valerie Porr's book : "i must have said and done so many things to hurt you for us to get into this situation".

Just as I had given up and sent my 3rd and what I intended to be last e-mail she asked to meet me.

What I found helpful was to be kind to myself, approach her very gently in baby steps and not to have any expectations.

.Really do take care of yourself. Do things you enjoy. Keep faith that she will eventually be back in touch and take time to study the tools on here.

Things are still very difficult between DD and I but I know NC would be very painful.

PS my first e-mail elicited the worst response possible ~ a character assassination of me full of swearing and accusations. I was in tears ~don't give up!

[lever.]

I have just noticed from your second post that you don't know where she is, so have no way of making contact. That makes some of my post irrelevant, but some of it still applies.

All the more reason to take a lot of care of yourself.

When people told me things would change I didn't have much hope~ but they do tend to change, sometimes unexpectedly.

[theplotthickens]

I am following, because my 17 year old plans to cut me out of her life as soon as she turns 18.  However, she has emotionally cut me off long before that, and I have been her target of for so long, that I have grieved the loss of the hope of a normal relationshp for a long time before she plans to cut me off.

I would say that you have to grieve your loss in your own way.  I don't think finding a hobby or making new friends is shallow; it is a coping mechanism for finding a balanced life.  I know that I dream of having a close, loving relationship with my daughter but she is not able to give that.

It has helped me immensely to build a life I am excited about and to recognize and verbalize all the grief and loss that I feel for a "normal" mother-child relationship that will likely never be.  Trying to get validation from a BPD child is a painful and useless endeavor.  It is a black hole.  I don't think they are capable, but that is not a reflection that you as a mother. 

I think we all understand the grief and loss you are going through.  I hope and pray that you find ways to cope and find joy despite the unhappy circumstances you find yourself in.     

[co.jo]

However, I would still like to know if anyone has had experience with their children re-initiating contact and returning to relationship. Or do they stay mired in thinking we are evil forever?

[suchsadness]

I have had the experience of my BPD dd36 initiating contact after she went NC - saying I was dead to her - for about 6 months.  She initiated it when she didn't hear from me for her birthday, but I had sent a card and it was sent back by the post office.  She said she forgave me, for her own sake and was even pleasant until after Christmas.  She got upset with me about her and her sister's situation that I let myself get pulled into and has gone no contact with me again at this point.  I have to say, it is way easier the second time.  I do look at it like it is helping her to stay no contact in that she isn't raging and I am not causing more stress to her.  It is hard not knowing what's going on in her life because at this point she is still homeless and as far as I know without a job as well.

My dh said she only re-established contact with me at the time of her birthday and Christmas because she knew she would be getting money and gifts... . I guess that is entirely possible, especially since she so easily and quickly went back to the no contact status  :'(

[lever.]

What theplotthickens says is so true. Trying to get validation from a BPD child is futile. The relationship is likely to be one-sided whether there is contact or not... That is why building up other aspects of our lives is important even though it doesn't really fill the gap.

I have noticed that the most experienced posters on here have worked on giving and giving with a detached kindness but with no expectations for the relationship.

I am very aware that my DD could break contact again very easily and there is a distance and caution in our  now low contact arrangement.

I have learned a lot from my mindfulness group about letting go. I think it is also important to keep up friendships and interests even if you have to force yourself at first.

I can only respond to the filling the gap part of the post.

Whether the adult child with BPD re-initiates contact under their own motivation or re-evaluates the situation themselves I don't know.

I think what is really hard is that because of their problems we have fallen into our children and their needs being at the centre of our lives and then suddenly there is nothing (or very little).

[vivekananda]

My dd 33 hs been n/c or limited contact for most of the last few years. My experience is that there will be contact when she wants something.

I know she would want to have a 'normal' relationship with us, but because she believes we are the cause of her situation, she also feels she needs to protect herself from us. I do know she loves us dearly also. We are a constant reminder to her that her life is not 'normal', and she wants to avoid that. She probably feels deeply shamed by her situation.

I believe that until she has recovered from her BPD that it is unlikely that we will have a renewed relationship. That being said there is some sort of a relationship in her mind anyway.

I learnt all I could from this board here and elsewhere and now my dh and I are more or unless at a reasonable place of acceptance.  Of course there is the constant grieving... . but like all grieving, it comes and goes and it is no longer that constant ache. We am able to live a full rich life of our own, with this situation.

take care,

Vivek 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SCM]

I have been in a no contact situation with my ddBPD for 17 months now. I can hardly stand the pain and loss and grief of not knowing when and if this situation will reverse. For me is a constant daily pain, unbearable at times.

[pessim-optimist]

a form of remorse or objectivity on the part of the BPD person who has shut us out?

In other words, does the space and time away from us ever bring about a balance in their minds, where they actually remember all the good and miss us? 

Hello mybonnie, 

What you describe is an aspect of so called "splitting" or "black-and-white thinking" which is so confusing to us and so typical with persons suffering from BPD. They either see us as good or bad. And that view of us changes with time according to their emotional state... . So - yes, and no. She most likely will see you as good again at some point, but you cannot expect balance... .

In her book: Get Me Out of Here, Rachel Reiland describes how when she saw her therapist as bad, she could not remember anything good about him, and and when she saw him as good, she could not remember anything bad about him and did not understand why she ever saw him as bad. At those times, she felt remorse, but could not understand how or why she acted the way she did before and felt shame for it... . (It's a very good book that takes you inside of the mind of a person w/BPD, and also it's a book about recovery from BPD, written from the perspective of the sufferer)

There is also a very good workshop in that topic that might help answer your question even better here: Splitting

I suppose my next reading will be along the lines of how to fill the gigantic sad void.

... . But my point is that these light and airy suggestions seem such shallow substitutes for filling the loss of a relationship with my daughter.

Nothing will be able to fill the void or be a substitute, mybonnie... .  

For many of us, life with our person w/BPD gets progressively out of control, and often consumes more than a healthy share of our time, though. So, when there is a break, the loss and void is even greater, and we need to re-learn to live our own life... .

[mybonnie]

lever, thank you for the book suggestion.  I'm happy to see it is one that I downloaded to my kindle just recently.   I have written letters to my DD before her departure, too, in vain efforts to reconnect, explain and offer myself up to her with apology and desire to reconcile. It did elicit a very angry and vulgar response with demands for over the top financial support because afterall, I had admitted my errors, therefore I owed her.  She seemed to enjoy trying to make me feel worse when I was in a pleading mode.  And was not receptive to anything I offered her unless it had no strings, i.e. I put the condition of therapy to the things I offered her and she rejected that.  She believes I need help, not her.  She will only participate as far as telling the therapist how bad I am. I was willing to have that happen if it would at least get her through the door. But it probably would have failed as soon as the therapist asked her to look at her own behaviors.  I'm happy for you to not have had to go NC and hope it stays that way.  Thank you for your thoughtful response, suggestions and reasons to keep hoping.

theplotthickens, I understand the dread you must be feeling. My daughter warned me for a long time that she was going to get me out of her life permanently. She hasn't let me hug her in years and never connected the boundaries I installed as relating to her own actions.  She thought they were just out of the blue and me being mean for the sake of throwing her off balance as she called it.  Until now I could not understand how someone so bright and intelligent could come to those conclusions.  I am coming to accept that she cannot be with me. Right now, I'm mostly just hoping for her safety and well-being.

co.jo and suchsadness, I have to say that my daughter's tolerance of me has largely been due to her financial needs. At one point she seemed interested in healing the relationship but we could not sustain peace.  Mistakes were made on both sides and the intensity was scary to me. I didn't understand why we couldn't talk through things and she didn't understand how I could betray/disrespect her time and again (from her point of view).

Vivek, that must be comforting for you to at least know that your daughter loves you dearly.  I like to think mine does deep down. I think if they didn't, then they wouldn't fight so hard against us.  If I look back into my younger life, I only fought with people who mattered to me.

SCM, my heart aches for you, dear.  Aches for all of us, but I'm so grateful we can at least speak and share.  I wish there were a group locally where I could sit in person with fellow sufferers. I have looked and could not find one and don't have it in me at this time to start one.  Maybe one day.

pessim-optimist, thank you for the links on the book and splitting. I will pursue them. 

It seems what we are all doing is taking on the hurt and pain of our loved ones.  If only that could be enough to help them, then I'd welcome it.  But I seem to be learning that the best thing I can do is seek healthy ways to reduce the pain and shame in my life, forgive myself and learn to not feel guilty for wanting to feel good again, even while she is still suffering and blaming me.  Nobody wants to be that "heartless" person as they describe us... . someone who hurt someone else and then went about life cheerily.  I think the guilt serves me in that way.  If I feel bad then at least I am being punished for the harm I have caused another.   But then I recall all the years that my daughter forgets... . nearly two decades of trying to make it up to her in so many ways... . emotionally, financially, as a friend, mother, listening ear, advisor. I made some mistakes, too, but I owned up to them as soon as I could see them.  And sometimes I was defensive when I wish I had listened.  But nothing was ever good enough nor lasted. 

Thank you all for your input.  May you each be resting well tonight and able to feel some love around you and have peaceful thoughts.

[mybonnie]

P.S.  suchsadness,  I meant to also express my sorrow for you having to live with the unknowing of your daughter's well being and her life as a homeless person. So very excruciating.  Heartfelt hug for you and prayers for your girl to find her way out of this. xoxo 

[lever.]

Dear Mybonnie,

We have all made mistakes, we are all human. Please try to remember the efforts you have made to help your DD rather than dwelling on your mistakes. Holding on to guilt will not help your daughter.

If guilt is justified all you can do is try to make amends and then move on, (which you HAVE done). Sometimes the feeling of guilt is not justified at all.

Punishing yourself will not help your daughter,

Building a positive life for yourself is not heartless. I know many of us would walk over hot coals if it would help our children and I am sure YOU would.

If they won't accept our help  it doesn't help them for us to live in misery.

Detachment with kindness and love is very different to coldness and heartlessness.

If your DD asked for your help I am sure you would be more than ready to give it, in the meantime DO look after your own needs and build up other aspects of your life.

When I wrote to my DD any explanations or neediness on my part did elicit hateful responses.

. She responded a little better when I just validated her feelings and said that I was willing t accept NC if it would make her happier. Advice on here and suggestions in Valerie Porr's book helped me word it.

It was also a very,very shot e-mail with no justifications and little for her to argue with.

It is very painful for these NC situations to arise when we have spent years trying to be emotionally and practically supportive.  to those parents going through this.

[parent of bpd daughter]

I am so sorry you have need to be here - sorry you are going through this. I wish I could say the no contact helps in the end - in my experience it did/does not. Like others say - they call when they want something like money every few years - otherwise - my BPDD is now 34 - no change. Meds have helped her stay stable - but since she refuses therapy - meds are only 1/2 the battle. The hole they leave in us we learn to live with - some of us try filling with food or booze or drugs or men or exercise or shopping or whatever - nothing works. I turn to my spirituality most days to make it through. We must learn to mourn the living - it sucks plain and simple. Sorry for you to go through this.

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, mybonnie 

My situation is a bit different, in that my (diagnosed) BPD adult (37) son has never gone No Contact with us; he is Low-Functioning and therefore tends to blame himself and not others when he has troubles. He is in recovery now, and doing the best he has ever done, and is getting healthier day by day.

The problem for my Husband and me has been my non-BPD son and his (who I believe to be) undiagnosed BPD wife. They are also in their 30's, and have been together for more than 10 years. We never had any communication and relationship problems with that son, until he and my D-I-L got engaged; soon after that, extended periods of Low Contact became No Contact (then some good contact, before the cycle started again).

It became apparent to me, after finding this website and learning about BPD, that the problem was my D-I-L's perceptions of us and the things we said and did, and how she felt and reacted emotionally with us. I realized that my son was supporting his wife, doing his best to keep her happy by "getting angry" at us for pretty innocuous things we did that riled her up.

That continued until early last summer or so, when I read and participated in this Workshop: How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life? and it actually changed my life! It changed how I understood my D-I-L, and changed the way I care about her, and changed the way I communicate with her.

Shortly after learning what I did in that Workshop, our No Contact with our son and D-I-L (which was keeping us from seeing our first grandchild!) became Low Contact with D-I-L & Contact with son. Eventually, our D-I-L resumed full contact with us, and things got friendly and comfortable for all of us. And things are still better than they ever were!

The reason I am telling you all of this is because in my own life--once I learned what I did in that Workshop linked to above--No Contact with my BPD D-I-L and non-BPD son did finally dissipate, and there really has been some changes in their attitudes towards my Husband and me, and I do see a form of objectivity now in how my D-I-L understands and feels about us. The things I learned in that Workshop helped me to understand and communicate with her better, resulting in her changing her attitudes about me. My son (who never really wanted to be NC with us in the first place) has just come along for the ride 

[mybonnie]

I sat down for a few hours and read all the emails that had transpired between DD and me the last 8 years and wow... . the EXACT same dilemmas, arguments, accusations and threats were happening in 2006 that were happening a month ago. Reading those exchanges really helped me see how much my husband and I have done the best we knew how to be there for her offering help, a listening ear, advice and how much verbal abuse and rude behavior has been flung at us.  I'm happy to see that back then I was pretty even minded, too, not over reacting to her rudeness or name calling. I could see times when I could have heard her better and missed the point she was trying to make.  Sometimes I wonder if I was too tolerant and that's why she has not improved. But I think not.  I can see that I had a grave concern that something was very much amiss even though I did not know what it was. Her level of anxiety and doubt about her friendships at the time was paralyzing her. I was trying to get her to detach from that and just focus on getting herself where she wanted to be in life and she was very much focused on the struggles she was having with her friends, some of whom I felt had their own mental problems and were using her to their advantage.  Anyway, it was good to get this perspective and see how weary I am and how much I want to stop what has felt like an endless cycle of misery. Being that I caregive my husband full time I really need to rest and build up my own health.

BPD daughter,  what you say is interesting.  There was a short period of no contact with my DD a few years ago and my guilt told me that she was finally going to get well without me... . and I learned as you found out, it did not work out that way... . when we finally had contact again, she was in pitifully sad and non-functioning condition, really broke my heart and I jumped in and rescued her (not the first nor the last time).  This is what worries me about the no contact.  You'd think they'd be on their own and finally putting things all together even if to prove to us how well they do without us.   This time I've been turning more and more to the spiritual side for support and a couple dear friends who have a lot of patience for me. And this forum! It's helping immensely. I  take my kindle to bed with me most nights and read or listen for the benefit of my education and peace. I have also at times turned to numbing behaviors like you mentioned and don't want to do that anymore as it just makes me feel worse in the long run.

Rapt Reader, what a great testimony to the workshop! Thank you for the link. Life-changing indeed.  I'm so proud of you and happy for your DIL (and son and grandchild) that she has been fortunate to have you in her life. It could have been so much worse for everyone had you not invested in opening up your understanding and acting on what you learned. I'm definitely looking into the workshop.

Thank you, again, lever, for your insight and suggestions.  Reading those old emails helped put a lot into perspective for me. Even though I can see how hard I tried in the past, I definitely did too much of the justification and explaining and defending... . and chasing, too.  Although I think she loved me chasing her as some form of reassurance even though those were the times she stomped on me the hardest. 

I think I may have been a BPD earlier in my life.  If so,  I feel as though I came out of it gradually over the last 10 years... . but I can go back and see my own craziness with the men in my life. My female friendships were good but my intimate relationships were a wreck by and large through my 20's, 30's and even 40's (I'm 59 now) so this gives me a LOT of understanding and patience with this daughter of mine.  I keep thinking, "Well, look at the mess I was at her age."   However, I did support myself financially. I worked hard at my career, probably too hard.  My parents were very proud of my work ethic as an adult.  I had been a lazy child by contrast.  This daughter works off and on but she feels very much like her family (myself and extended members) owe her due to her lousy childhood.  Many of them have helped her but everyone is now at a place where they want to see her take charge of her own life.