Have you ever seen a "Recovered" BPD person?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi there,


When I was seeking out treatment for my BPD mother, I found Marsha Linehan and her awesome Dialectical Skills therapy. It's my understanding that she had BPD, developed these skills, treated herself with them making a full recovery, and then went on to get her doctorate and help others get treated. Her info says that with these Dialectical skills, a person can have an 80% chance at recovery and having a normal life.

My mom went into the Dialectical treatment, and although it wasn't exactly in-line with everything Marsha says is needed, it was very helpful for the longest time. She was in her wise mind, she was fair, kind, and respectful... . and I thought she was well on her way to being able to be a normal, functioning member of society.

Then out of the blue it seemed like, she had to devalue the therapist she put up so high on a pedestal, etc.,. and sabotage the treatment, then saying they were ending it because of lack of funding, saying she'd go to other groups, dropping out or saying they scaled it way back or it's at night and she's not comfortable... . on and on. Aaaand we're right back in the eye of the storm.

I'd like to know what I'm in for... . if I am right in having hope or if I need to start grieving and accepting that her body may be there, but the person inside is never coming back. Marsha Linehan stated that with Dialectical treatment a person has 80% of "recovery." My question to you all is... . have you ever seen a someone overcome it and become a healthy person?

[Valley Quail]

Hi there,


When I was seeking out treatment for my BPD mother, I found Marsha Linehan and her awesome Dialectical Skills therapy. It's my understanding that she had BPD, developed these skills, treated herself with them making a full recovery, and then went on to get her doctorate and help others get treated. Her info says that with these Dialectical skills, a person can have an 80% chance at recovery and having a normal life.

My mom went into the Dialectical treatment, and although it wasn't exactly in-line with everything Marsha says is needed, it was very helpful for the longest time. She was in her wise mind, she was fair, kind, and respectful... . and I thought she was well on her way to being able to be a normal, functioning member of society.

Then out of the blue it seemed like, she had to devalue the therapist she put up so high on a pedestal, etc.,. and sabotage the treatment, then saying they were ending it because of lack of funding, saying she'd go to other groups, dropping out or saying they scaled it way back or it's at night and she's not comfortable... . on and on. Aaaand we're right back in the eye of the storm.

I'd like to know what I'm in for... . if I am right in having hope or if I need to start grieving and accepting that her body may be there, but the person inside is never coming back. Marsha Linehan stated that with Dialectical treatment a person has 80% of "recovery." My question to you all is... . have you ever seen a someone overcome it and become a healthy person?

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, Valley Quail & 

I'm really sorry that your Mom has not wanted to continue with treatment. I am the mother of an adult (37) son who was diagnosed with BPD a year ago after his whole life of struggling with many symptoms and behaviors that started with ADD, and then escalated to BPD as he got older. I'd like to answer your question about people with BPD being helped by Therapy: Yes 

A year ago, my son was admitted to an Intensive In-Patient Dual Diagnosis Center for Suicidal Ideations, Substance Addiction, Depression, ADD & Social Anxiety. During this 21-day Program he was diagnosed with BPD as well, and was treated and taught DBT along with working with a Social Worker, Psychologist and Psychiatrist. He came out of that Program a new guy, and has continued with seeing an Outpatient Therapist weekly, a Neurofeedback Therapist weekly and a Psychiatrist monthly. He is, for all practical purposes, recovering from all of his worst symptoms and behaviors (Suicidal Ideation, Depression, Substance Addiction, most BPD symptoms), and though he still struggles with Social Anxiety, he is a different person and probably wouldn't even be diagnosed with the above-mentioned diagnoses.

The trick that I've found is that the person with BPD needs to understand there is a problem, that there is help for the problem, and then will commit to get the treatments necessary to help the problem. If my son were not so intent on getting over his troubles (and believe me, there were many), and so dedicated to accepting and participating in his treatments, he wouldn't be as far in his recovery process as he is today. He's really doing well... .

One thing you can do is to continue to read all you can on this site, in order to understand how your Mom's mind works, and why she has the symptoms and behaviors that she does. Then, learn the communication tools and techniques we have available here in order for you to learn how to deal with her better. None of us can change anyone except ourselves, but once we do that--and learn how to stop pushing every BPD button in our loved one's body--then our loved one starts changing their reactions to us, making things so much better. Have you checked out Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it, TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth and Radical Acceptance for family members? These links were the most helpful to me when I first learned of my son's BPD diagnosis, and even today--a year later--I use the information learned from them every minute of every day. The answer to your question, Valley Quail, is Yes 

[Valley Quail]

Thank you so very much Rapt Reader. You so nailed it-- the trick is that they need to understand that there is a problem, there's help for the problem, and then will commit to get the treatments necessary to help the problem. And that I need to learn all about how her mind works and avoid the buttons.

I haven't read that one yet... . I'm going to it right now Thanks so very, very much! 

[Valley Quail]

I am concerned that my mother is so addicted to the attention & drama that playing the victim gives her, that it may prevent her from understanding for the long-term that there is a problem, that there is help for it, and to be committed to getting the treatments. Has anyone else seen a BPD person overcome it and become healthy again?

[Rapt Reader]

Hey, Valley Quail... .

I just had a thought. Have you ever heard of (or read) Get Me Out of Here by Rachel Reiland? Or The Buddha & The Borderline? Those are two very good books that not only helped me understand my BPD son better, but he read them both--before me, actually, and he made me read them, too!--and says that they helped him understand himself better, and they were very helpful to his recovery process. They read like novels, not clinical educational materials, and I thought maybe they would be helpful to you and your mother, too. Just a thought... .

I think you can find other books and resources that will not only help answer your questions about your Mom, but could help your Mom, too at this link: Reliable Resources for Family Members. And, another book that my son says really helped him understand himself (he read it on the recommendations of the Center that diagnosed his BPD) is: I Hate You, Don't Leave Me. He says he recommends that book very highly to people with BPD in order for them to get a better handle on why they are the way they are, and he thinks it could help them to get to a point of wanting to get help.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with any of these books, but I thought I'd share my son's "professional BPD guy's" opinion 

[Valley Quail]

Hi Rapt Reader,


    I hadn't heard of "Get Me Out Of Here" or "Buddha & The Borderline". That's awesome that they read like novels. They sound very helpful, I plan on reading them. Thank you so much.

    Thank you also for the link to Reliable Resources for Family Members and the mention of the book "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." I have read excerpts from it I believe, and will read it fully.

     These are great recommendations. Thanks so much for caring. It means so much to me. Hope you have a great night.

[AsianSon]

Thank you so very much Rapt Reader. You so nailed it-- the trick is that they need to understand that there is a problem, there's help for the problem, and then will commit to get the treatments necessary to help the problem. And that I need to learn all about how her mind works and avoid the buttons.

Hi Valley Quail,

I hope you don't mind the late post to your thread, but an idea just hit me.  (And excuse me if the following is old news to you.)

Could your mother have NPD behaviors that have risen to the surface for some reason and triggered the stopping of Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT)?  Or maybe it was a combination of NPD and BPD that caused the switch?

I don't know enough about DBT to know whether it takes NPD into account or works on NPD.

You also mentioned that your mother's therapy "wasn't exactly in-line with everything Marsha says is needed" so maybe it wasn't DBT?

I wish you success.   

[Valley Quail]

Hi AsianSon,

Thanks so much for your reply and great insights. You are so spot-on. I think that she does have some NPD behaviors that have risen to the surface. Thank you so much for mentioning that. I was thinking maybe that could be what is going on, but then I would second-guess myself or brush it off. I really needed to hear that point from someone else. Thanks so much, so glad you saw that... you're very smart.


(She was definitely in DBT, although I mention that it wasn't in line with what Marsha dictates because my mom's sessions were not as often as is specified.) I don't know enough about DBT therapy to know if it works on NPD either. That's a great thought. That would be really awesome and helpful if it did. I have seen that many others can really relate to dealing with a BPD/NPD combination person in their life. Thanks very much for your great insights and understanding.

[AsianSon]

Hi Valley Quail,

You are most welcome!  I hope it turns out to be useful.

And I want to thank you for your many kind words.  I was just moving around the boards and the thought popped into my head. 

Peace to you!

[G.J.]

Hi Valley Quail,

I'm sorry to hear about your struggles with your mom.  It's encouraging that she's at least attempted to get help in the past.  After 11+ years of NC, my uBPD mother apparently still insists she did nothing wrong and that I'm the problem.

Anyway, I have a few thoughts on all of this... .

First, my sister was recently diagnosed with BPD, and the diagnosing T got her accepted into an in-patient psych program that specializes in Borderline.  This T's prognosis for my sister (who has sent other patients to this program, and it's considered one of the best in the country), is that even IF she completes 6 months of in-treatment, she'll never be "normal" but she can be "better."

Now, to be fair, my sister also has some addiction problems and apparently was also diagnosed with a few other things (I don't know what, the T couldn't tell us) but BPD is the predominant diagnosis.  Also, in the last 6 years, she slipped into what I would call a "low functioning" state, whereas prior to that she had been doing reasonably ok (save the emotional issues).  So I imagine that some of the prognosis must have to do with how bad off the person is to start with.

But everything I've read and have been told by other T's about BPD, is that it isn't "curable" per se, but it is manageable and it doesn't have to stay at the level it's at currently.  I think a lot of psychology is that way though.  I don't have any PD's, but I do have some after-affects from my childhood that include abandonment and attachment issues that my T has told me are greatly improvable -- but something I'll have to work on my entire life -- meaning, "not curable."  I don't know that anyone comes out of any therapy "completely cured."   

That being said, I've been told the biggest barrier to treating BPD is the pwBPD's relationship with the T itself.  The problem is, the BPD recreates the same type of "I hate you don't leave me" relationship with the T, and fighting against the idealization/devaluation and keeping the pwBPD somewhere in the middle long enough to stay in treatment and improve, is apparently very difficult.  It sounds like that may have been what happened with your mom?

I've noticed that when a pwBPD is idealizing someone, they want to do everything they can to garner recognition, praise, approval and admiration from that person.  I'm wondering if your mom had been idealizing her T, and therefore was employing the skills she was teaching her, so she could go back to the T and say, "See how wonderful you are?  See how wonderful I am?  I'm doing what you told me to and I'm improving!"  But then when your mom devalued the T (in my hypothesis) she also threw out everything the T taught her, because it hadn't genuinely taken a hold inside her in the first place.?

As to the NPD side of things:  I've done a lot of research on NPD, as I'm pretty sure I've come into contact with NPD's even more than I have BPD's and I find that illness even more disturbing than BPD (if that's possible).  Everything but everything that I've read and have been told, is that NPD is not only NOT curable -- it's not even improvable.  I could go on and on about this, but to summarize:  DBT does not help NPD.  There is currently no treatment for NPD, as most don't go to therapy, and those that do are not there for the right reasons nor will they genuinely open up and work on their problems.  In order to get help, one has to allow themselves to be vulnerable.  And as a wise woman once told me, "Vulnerability is a narcissist's kryptonite.  They will avoid it at all costs."

My opinion is that BPD is a disorder of the mind, while NPD is a disorder of the soul.

All of these things just happen to be my opinion and personal experience and what I've been told... . Not sure if it helps at all, but knowing these things has helped me to manage my expectations for my family members.  It's not what I would have asked for, but knowing is better than not knowing, I suppose!

[Valley Quail]

Hi G.J.--


Thanks very much for for sharing your story and great insights. I'm very sorry for the pain that you have been through.


You hit the nail right on the head, the "I hate you, don't leave me" relationship has been recreated with the therapists. I can see now that you mention it that the need for recognition and approval from the therapist became the goal, and the skills maybe didn't genuinely take hold on the inside. Unfortunately, that is a pattern with most everything--it's never seen through.


The info you gave on NPD is really helpful. I am glad to know the hard truth. It will help me to feel ok about grieving and moving forward... . and help me to avoid the pitfalls of mis-directed hope.


That is so insightful... . that NPD is a disorder of the soul and that BPD is a disorder of the mind... . and that to work on NPD one needs vulnerability, which is the NPD's kryptonite. That really helps put it into perspective. Thank you very much. I would rather know, definitely. This will really help as I move into healing and growing. Thanks so much.