I know I need to change, just don't know how?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I feel overwhelmed by the prospect of the amount of work I have to do on myself.

I know I've got to change, but there is so much and it's so scary to try to shift patterns of behaviour which are fundamental to who I am. 

It's all about relationships, romantic ones.  I googled one of my earliest boyfriends yesterday.  I was 18 and living in London.  He was 19 and a student at one of the universities.  I was working as a waitress and moved in with him.  He is now a CEO of a large empire somewhere in Africa, has a lot of kids and looks very happily married.  It was weird looking at him now.  He is still smiling that huge grin he had then.

I don't know if it's helpful to analyse a relationship that was so far back, but it was very stark, with lots of clues to me I think.

Basically, apart from day to day stuff, we would argue, usually about his infidelity, of his callous treatment of me and most often in bed at night. We would argue and I would sulk.  It was a bit more than sulking actually.  I have a vivid memory of lying next to him in the dark, hostile and rigid, ignoring him, hearing the blood rushing in my veins, feeling desperate, and then I would be crawling across the floor to sit in silence in front of the electric bar fire with my back to him.  He would pretend not to notice my abandonment of him but would eventually order me to come back, at which point I would capitulate and we would snuggle up, he would mutter that he was sorry and I would cry a bit and all would be well again.  This little drama would unfold most nights if I remember.

Eventually we parted company, but I sometimes think about those arguments and how I behaved.  He was often unfaithful to me, and wouldn't come back for several nights, so I had my reasons to be upset.  What's interesting now is that I put up with it at all.  But I think is was part of the drama I was living in my head.  Rejection, abandonment, my trying to bring him to heel by pretending to abandon him when he was actually doing it to me.

It was a sorry episode really but kind of raw and full of clues, as I said.  At 18/19 I had very little sense of myself, no self esteem, was all feelings and acting out.  I desperately wanted a man to come along and make me whole, secure, fill the void, I had nothing else.

Ironically, now I have lots, a career, a home, friends, a son, confidence, self esteem - but I still am looking for that fix, that relationship which will make me whole.  The difference is that now there are other things in my life, it's not the only thing I have, so without it I am less needy. 

I wish that were all.  In fact if I look back at all the relationships I've had, the healthiest (contradiction; most traditional maybe?) was when I was most unhappy!  My son's father.  We were together for about 6 years.  We muddled along, there were moments of love and affection, though he was abandoning, emotionally and I was angry and critical.   I would have to work pretty hard for every scrap of validation or affection from him and most often got rejection, not great really.  I wonder what it was like for him? 

The recent r/s with pwuBPD, who has actually now had at least recognition of his BPD from a professional, was the most lovely and ideal, lots of love and affection, fantasy stuff, but then of course came the deeply contrasting rejection, devaluation and abandonment. 

I've been working up to that one all my life, the pinnacle of my disastrous relationship life!

Every relationship, from that early one, to this last one has followed a similar pattern, with one or two skirmishes with 'nice normal' men who I rejected (not enough pain or drama I suspect).  The pattern has been of me attaching myself to men who were controlling and/or rejecting and abandoning and of me trying to control and change them, to no avail of course... .

So I am overwhelmed with the prospect of having to change this pattern            and of how to change it?

Is being alone now and depressed and thinking and feeling freely going to be enough?  I absolutely can't afford therapy at the moment and am on a waiting list to have my 6-12 free sessions on NHS through my GP, but in the meantime here I am flopping around and gasping like a fish on the deck!

Time is running out - I'm 51 and losing hope of ever finding the peace and happiness I've been looking for all my life, in all the wrong places.  The thing is, I don't know what are the right places? 

I've filled up the emptiness inside myself with study, achievement, career, friendships, family, dogs, art and culture.  But continue to attract chaotic relationships.  I suppose the good thing about recent BPD encounter was that it has left me without my shield of denial.  I can no longer deny that there is a problem and that the problem is me!

On thursday I was at work.  I work in a prison (a recent development in my career path) and was assisting a nurse to dispense opiate substitute meds in a tiny room.  The prisoner who was sat with us became angry and threatening when the nurse asked to see inside his mouth and we both felt threatened.  She called out for the Officer who was outside the door and he was there instantly, tall, strong, bristling with protective righteous calm.  He towered over me and calmly talked the prisoner down.  Two other officers miraculously appeared and the room was full.  I felt safe and protected, though it could still have gone badly if the prisoner had kicked off within that confined space but he didn't.  My point is that this Officer was like a Knight on a charger and I felt safe and protected.  Later on he and I chatted and I made him tea.  He seemed nice and asked me about myself.  He's the sort of man I should fall for, steady, kind, protective, reliable, safe.  I should marry him!

Yet I didn't have that feeling I usually have when I'm attracted to someone.  If I could put my finger on what that is I might have a chance to break the cycle... .   I know it's recognition... . a familiar feeling.  Is it resignation, acceptance of my fate?  Like a rabbit that sees the hawk above it just as it's about to be caught, a rush of adrenalin and excitement and fear?  All so incredibly familiar... .

If anyone's still with me then I salute you!  This tome has been a necessary outpouring, helping me work it out, and I thank you for reading it... .

I tell myself that at least I'm asking myself the questions, even if I don't have the answers - yet. 

Janey x

[janey62]

I feel overwhelmed by the prospect of the amount of work I have to do on myself.

I know I've got to change, but there is so much and it's so scary to try to shift patterns of behaviour which are fundamental to who I am. 

It's all about relationships, romantic ones.  I googled one of my earliest boyfriends yesterday.  I was 18 and living in London.  He was 19 and a student at one of the universities.  I was working as a waitress and moved in with him.  He is now a CEO of a large empire somewhere in Africa, has a lot of kids and looks very happily married.  It was weird looking at him now.  He is still smiling that huge grin he had then.

I don't know if it's helpful to analyse a relationship that was so far back, but it was very stark, with lots of clues to me I think.

Basically, apart from day to day stuff, we would argue, usually about his infidelity, of his callous treatment of me and most often in bed at night. We would argue and I would sulk.  It was a bit more than sulking actually.  I have a vivid memory of lying next to him in the dark, hostile and rigid, ignoring him, hearing the blood rushing in my veins, feeling desperate, and then I would be crawling across the floor to sit in silence in front of the electric bar fire with my back to him.  He would pretend not to notice my abandonment of him but would eventually order me to come back, at which point I would capitulate and we would snuggle up, he would mutter that he was sorry and I would cry a bit and all would be well again.  This little drama would unfold most nights if I remember.

Eventually we parted company, but I sometimes think about those arguments and how I behaved.  He was often unfaithful to me, and wouldn't come back for several nights, so I had my reasons to be upset.  What's interesting now is that I put up with it at all.  But I think is was part of the drama I was living in my head.  Rejection, abandonment, my trying to bring him to heel by pretending to abandon him when he was actually doing it to me.

It was a sorry episode really but kind of raw and full of clues, as I said.  At 18/19 I had very little sense of myself, no self esteem, was all feelings and acting out.  I desperately wanted a man to come along and make me whole, secure, fill the void, I had nothing else.

Ironically, now I have lots, a career, a home, friends, a son, confidence, self esteem - but I still am looking for that fix, that relationship which will make me whole.  The difference is that now there are other things in my life, it's not the only thing I have, so without it I am less needy. 

I wish that were all.  In fact if I look back at all the relationships I've had, the healthiest (contradiction; most traditional maybe?) was when I was most unhappy!  My son's father.  We were together for about 6 years.  We muddled along, there were moments of love and affection, though he was abandoning, emotionally and I was angry and critical.   I would have to work pretty hard for every scrap of validation or affection from him and most often got rejection, not great really.  I wonder what it was like for him? 

The recent r/s with pwuBPD, who has actually now had at least recognition of his BPD from a professional, was the most lovely and ideal, lots of love and affection, fantasy stuff, but then of course came the deeply contrasting rejection, devaluation and abandonment. 

I've been working up to that one all my life, the pinnacle of my disastrous relationship life!

Every relationship, from that early one, to this last one has followed a similar pattern, with one or two skirmishes with 'nice normal' men who I rejected (not enough pain or drama I suspect).  The pattern has been of me attaching myself to men who were controlling and/or rejecting and abandoning and of me trying to control and change them, to no avail of course... .

So I am overwhelmed with the prospect of having to change this pattern            and of how to change it?

Is being alone now and depressed and thinking and feeling freely going to be enough?  I absolutely can't afford therapy at the moment and am on a waiting list to have my 6-12 free sessions on NHS through my GP, but in the meantime here I am flopping around and gasping like a fish on the deck!

Time is running out - I'm 51 and losing hope of ever finding the peace and happiness I've been looking for all my life, in all the wrong places.  The thing is, I don't know what are the right places? 

I've filled up the emptiness inside myself with study, achievement, career, friendships, family, dogs, art and culture.  But continue to attract chaotic relationships.  I suppose the good thing about recent BPD encounter was that it has left me without my shield of denial.  I can no longer deny that there is a problem and that the problem is me!

On thursday I was at work.  I work in a prison (a recent development in my career path) and was assisting a nurse to dispense opiate substitute meds in a tiny room.  The prisoner who was sat with us became angry and threatening when the nurse asked to see inside his mouth and we both felt threatened.  She called out for the Officer who was outside the door and he was there instantly, tall, strong, bristling with protective righteous calm.  He towered over me and calmly talked the prisoner down.  Two other officers miraculously appeared and the room was full.  I felt safe and protected, though it could still have gone badly if the prisoner had kicked off within that confined space but he didn't.  My point is that this Officer was like a Knight on a charger and I felt safe and protected.  Later on he and I chatted and I made him tea.  He seemed nice and asked me about myself.  He's the sort of man I should fall for, steady, kind, protective, reliable, safe.  I should marry him!

Yet I didn't have that feeling I usually have when I'm attracted to someone.  If I could put my finger on what that is I might have a chance to break the cycle... .   I know it's recognition... . a familiar feeling.  Is it resignation, acceptance of my fate?  Like a rabbit that sees the hawk above it just as it's about to be caught, a rush of adrenalin and excitement and fear?  All so incredibly familiar... .

If anyone's still with me then I salute you!  This tome has been a necessary outpouring, helping me work it out, and I thank you for reading it... .

I tell myself that at least I'm asking myself the questions, even if I don't have the answers - yet. 

Janey x

[seeking balance]

Big Questions Janey - Kudos to you for even asking them 

Change is hard... . but once we ask the questions that you are, going backwards to the old ways tend to be even harder... . so keep moving forward, change is worth it 

We learn our attachment styles and our worthiness from our FOO (family of origin).  There are a ton of books on this ... . what were your family dynamics growing up?

[fromheeltoheal]

I suppose the good thing about recent BPD encounter was that it has left me without my shield of denial.

Yep, I'm in the same place Janey; sht's gettin' real.  Right now I've got some regret that I didn't address these issues years, decades ago, but I was trying, in many, many ways, but I never seemed to get there.  It took the pain of borderline abuse to push me over a threshold, apparently, and I am genuinely thankful for the relationship today, although moving forward is murky.  I've been gobbling up books on betrayal bonds and self esteem, really reading them and working the exercises, and I don't know if I'm making progress, but I do know I'm getting real with myself.  Last night a sense of calm came over me, it felt good, I felt like I was doing exactly what I was supposed to be doing, and things didn't worry me, other people's drama didn't affect me.  Something told me that's the right place to be, a centering, and that by building a life from that place the right people and things will come into it.  Like you I've filled up my life with achievement, career, and of course dogs, what would life be without dogs, although I didn't consider it filling anything up, I considered it living, doing what I want.  And then that persistent emptiness and the denial of it.  So the answer seems to be, on my second cup of tea this morning, to stay connected to that center as I build a life, as opposed to running to find it outside myself, something tells me this is going to work, a lot slower than I'm used to living, but slower was probably the answer all along.

Thanks for the post, the connection felt good, and let's decide we're right where we're supposed to be.  I'm in my 50's too, and it's easy to think we're running out of time, but that belief just makes me run more, so better to settle, it is what it is, and settling feels denial-free.

[PrettyPlease]

... . I should marry him!

Yet I didn't have that feeling I usually have when I'm attracted to someone.  If I could put my finger on what that is I might have a chance to break the cycle... .   I know it's recognition... . a familiar feeling.  Is it resignation, acceptance of my fate?  Like a rabbit that sees the hawk above it just as it's about to be caught, a rush of adrenalin and excitement and fear?  All so incredibly familiar... .

If anyone's still with me then I salute you!

And I salute you, janey62, because you're digging, eloquently, at what might be the same problem that's been niggling me for years, in fact since before I knew about BPD. In brief it's: what's normal -- specifically in the realm of intimate attractions. How do we know how to deal with BPD's 'abnormality' if we don't know what normal is.

I agree with what seeking balance points you to: your FOO is important, it affected you -- but I think that we shouldn't overlook the fact that there are genetic things that define how we feel -- and even how fickle we are in that: for example, an article on a study (by a woman, UCLA professor) about the change in women's preferences for type of man with their menstrual cycle: What do women want?... .

From the article:

'... . Their findings suggest that ovulating women have evolved to prefer mates who display sexy traits – such as a masculine body type and facial features, dominant behavior and certain scents – but not traits typically desired in long-term mates.

'So, desires for those masculine characteristics, which are thought to have been markers of high genetic quality in our male ancestors, don't last all month – just the few days in a woman's cycle when she is most likely to pass on genes that, eons ago, might have increased the odds of her offspring surviving and reproducing.

'"Women sometimes get a bad rap for being fickle, but the changes they experience are not arbitrary," said Martie Haselton, a professor of psychology and communication studies at UCLA and the paper's senior author. "Women experience intricately patterned preference shifts even though they might not serve any function in the present."'

Or, to put it another way, we're living in the Digital Age with Paleolithic bodies. Maybe even in our 'normal' state it's no wonder we can't get along -- equipped as we are with triggers and timetables for ancient attractions and fears.

(And then add BPD on top of that?  Yeesh.    )

So, before turning all our attention to what's abnormal, we might save some of it for what's normal. I certainly don't know. But I'm not sure anybody else does either. 

PP

[LettingGo14]

Time is running out - I'm 51 and losing hope of ever finding the peace and happiness I've been looking for all my life, in all the wrong places.  The thing is, I don't know what are the right places? 

I've filled up the emptiness inside myself with study, achievement, career, friendships, family, dogs, art and culture.  But continue to attract chaotic relationships.  I suppose the good thing about recent BPD encounter was that it has left me without my shield of denial.  I can no longer deny that there is a problem and that the problem is me!

Janey,  Thanks for you powerful share.   I heard a story recently where the person talked about each of us having our "true selves" inside -- and like a jewel that has been buried for centuries deep in the earth, it can emerge unscathed and brilliant.   

It's NEVER too late.   One of my favorite quotes is "the only zen you find on a mountaintop is the zen you bring with you."  And my favorite instruction is "start where you are."

We have minds that seek meaning and connection and yet we spend so much time saying, I "should" or I "must."  Have you listened to Brene Brown, or read Anne Lamott, or listened to Tara Brach?   These are really good teachers.   Here's what Anne Lamott posted on her Facebook page on Saturday, April 5th.   I found it amazing, and real, and raw, and present:

April 5, 2014

This is the last Saturday of my fifties. The needle isn't moving to the left or to the right. I don't feel or look 60. I don't feel any age. I have a near-perfect life. However, I grew up on tennis courts and beaches in California during the sixties, where we put baby oil on our skin to deepen the tan, and we got hundreds of sunburns. So maybe that was not ideal. I drank a lot and took a lot of drugs and smoked two packs of Camels (unfiltered) a day until I was 32. I had a baby and then forgot to work out, so things did not get firmer, and higher. So again, not ideal.

My heart is not any age. It is a baby, an elder, a dog, a cat, divine.

My feet, however, frequently hurt.

My skin broke out last week. I filed a new brief with the Fairness Commission,

and am waiting to hear back.

My great blessing is the capacity for radical silliness, and self-care.

I'm pretty spaced out. I don't love how often I bend in to pull out clean wet clothes from the washer, and stand up, having forgotten that I opened the dryer that's above, and smash my head on the door once again. I don't know what the solution to this is, as I refuse to start wearing a helmet indoors. I don't love that I left my engine running for an hour last week, because I came inside to get something, and then got distracted by the dogs, and didn't remember I'd left the engine on. It was a tiny bit scary when a neighbor came to the front door to mention this, and I had to feign nonchalance, and act like it was exactly what I had meant to do all along.

I backed into an expensive truck in the parking lot of Whole Foods last month. Boy, what an asshat THAT guy was. My bumper had fallen off in the mishap, and I had to tie it back on with the shoelaces from my spare running shoes. Sigh.

Wednesday, the day before I turn 60, I am having a periodontal procedure that Stalin might have devised. How festive is that? But that night, my grandson and niece will pelt me with balloons, and we will all overeat together, the most spiritual thing we can do.

Mentally, the same old character defects resurface again and again. I thought I'd be all well by now. Maybe I'm 40% better, calmer, less reactive than I used to be, but the victimized self-righteousness remains strong, and my default response to most problems is still to try and figure out who to blame; whose fault it is, and how to correct his or her behavior, so I can be more comfortable.

My friend Jim says, "I don't judge. I diagnose." That's me.

Spiritually, I have the sophistication of a bright ten year old. My motley crew and my pets are my life. They are why I believe so ferociously in God.

Politically, I am still a little tense. I love that Obama is president. I love Obamacare. My great heroes at sixty are Gloria Steinem and Molly Ivins.

Forgiveness remains a challenge, as does letting go. When people say cheerfully, "Just let go and let God," I still want to stab them in the head with a fork, like a baked potato.

This business of being a human being is infinitely more fraught than I was led to believe. When my son Sam figured out at 7 years old that he and I were not going to die at the exact same moment, he said, "If I had known that, I wouldn't have agreed to be born." That says it for me. It's hard here, and weird. The greatness of love and laughter, the pain of loss, the bearing of one another's burdens, are all mixed up, like the crazy catch-all drawer in the kitchen.

This doesn't really work for me.

If I was God's West Coast rep, I would have a more organized and predictable system.

So we do what we can. Today, I will visit a cherished friend post surgery, and goof around with her kids. I will try to help one person stay clean and sober, just for today. I will loudly celebrate my own sobriety, and also the fact that my writing has not been a total nightmare lately. I am going to go for a hike on these sore feet, and remember Gerard Manley Hopkins, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God." Charged, electrical with life's beauty and light! Wow. Then I will probably buy the new issue of People magazine to read on the couch before my nap, and a sack of the black plums at the market that seemed overpriced yesterday, but not today.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[janey62]

Hey LettingGo,

I like the sound of Anne Lamott, and what she says is really lovely and real.

I'm happy with the idea of starting again from now! 

SB:  My family dynamics were - I was the eldest of 5.  Father left when I was 3 (having fathered two of us) and mother married again and had 3 more children.  I don't remember my father or their relationship, but I do think I was heartbroken that he left.  Her second marriage was a catastrophic episode which lasted 6 years ish.  Mother was depressive, volatile, suicidal, histrionic, strong in some ways - she kept us together (though I was her 'helper'.  She married again twice, was a hippy, got into drugs and absconded from her parental role.  We were kicked out as early as possible.  She made many suicide attempts but the final one was the most effective... .

I was an adult child, angry and somewhat promiscuous from my teens.  Was introduced to drugs/alcohol then too.  Bulimic by age 15 and lost with no idea how to get the love I wanted and needed.  I've kind of felt like that ever since inside, though on the outside I am grown and matured... . I have a great girlfriend; we met at school and have been friends since the age of 12.  I think without that close bond I would have been a lot more lost.  We're still close today.

I've had lots of therapy and come a long way.  Still get that lost feeling though.  I think basically I never really got over the loss of my father.  After my mother died I got to know him and built a relationship with him.  Unfortunately he abandoned me again in my late 30s.  He was having an affair and got me to collude with him; I became his confidant.  I had a part of my father that no-one else did, however when the affair ended and he went back to his wife he cut me off too... . I've not spoken to him since, though I've tried.  He made some excuse and disowned me. 

I know what you mean Pretty Please about the hormones... . I can see that there probably is a pattern hidden in the hormonal changes.  I'm in my menopause at the moment, not sure where that will take me.  A friend told me that things got better or her after her menopause. 

I saw that prison officer again today at work and he gave me a lovely bid smile and asked me how I was!   I think I blushed... .

I suppose the good thing about recent BPD encounter was that it has left me without my shield of denial.

Yep, I'm in the same place Janey; sht's gettin' real.  Right now I've got some regret that I didn't address these issues years, decades ago, but I was trying, in many, many ways, but I never seemed to get there.  It took the pain of borderline abuse to push me over a threshold, apparently, and I am genuinely thankful for the relationship today, although moving forward is murky. 

Thanks for the post, the connection felt good, and let's decide we're right where we're supposed to be.  I'm in my 50's too, and it's easy to think we're running out of time, but that belief just makes me run more, so better to settle, it is what it is, and settling feels denial-free.

Yes, we are right where we're supposed to be FHtoH, and it could be a lot worse.  I too am grateful to my ex; even though it was painful, still is, he taught me a lot.  I had no choice but to face myself and really see who I am and where my bad choices take me. 

It's like I was sat in the back seat of the car and no-one was in the driver's seat and it was crashing, regularly.  All I would do was moan about the crashes and the unfairness of it all, instead of realising I just needed to get in front of the wheel... .

Hugs 

Janey

 

[PrettyPlease]

It's like I was sat in the back seat of the car and no-one was in the driver's seat and it was crashing, regularly.  All I would do was moan about the crashes and the unfairness of it all, instead of realising I just needed to get in front of the wheel... .

Good metaphor. For me this seems to mean being able to say no to people in person. I'm great at holding my own in print (my earliest refuge), and moderately good on the telephone, but being in the presence of another person -- until recently -- seemed to make me unable to know what I wanted. I'd worry instead about what they wanted. "Here, you drive, I don't care where we go. Just don't get mad at me."   

[seeking balance]

You certainly have done a lot of work to this point... . I have finally accepted I am a work in progress - so, as I need to, I am good going back to T and peeling back another one of those emotional layers.

I am 45 and the last 4 years I have dated, but been single in terms of no real significant relationship.  What I can tell you is that I have had more growth from being alone than anything - I have had to work on me and my issues and I think it has helped give me a peace with me.

Every relationship, from that early one, to this last one has followed a similar pattern, with one or two skirmishes with 'nice normal' men who I rejected (not enough pain or drama I suspect).  The pattern has been of me attaching myself to men who were controlling and/or rejecting and abandoning and of me trying to control and change them, to no avail of course... .

So I am overwhelmed with the prospect of having to change this pattern            and of how to change it?

Looking at your FOO you describe - you know what you issue is, honestly - right?  You are attaching attractiveness to intensity... . the only way to change it is to change it and be ok with less intensity and more substance... . make stable and average attractive.  You learned this by your relationship with your father likely - you describe a version of this with each of your significant relationships.  Simply - feeling "WHAT EMOTION HERE" (not enough, replaceable, heartbroken, etc) attaches me to men.  Healing that or at least accepting that is how to change it.

So, this is what I have spent the last few years doing - changing what I am attracted to... . if I feel that intensity I look around for the red flags.  If someone is nice, I give them time and look for the things that are normal. 

I didn't get my poor attachments over night and changing them isn't going to come quickly either - a few years of me working on me without a serious relationship, for a better overall outcome - I am ok with that.

What is it that you really want to change about yourself anyways Janey?

[janey62]

Blimey SB, you're spot on there! 

What I want to change is exactly that, I want normal and nice and to get there I need to heal the wounds of loss of my amazing 'fantasy' father... .

Attractiveness is intensity!  Such a simple concept but it hasn't occurred to me like that before.

I will see a T as soon as finances allow, for more onion peeling.  I had 6 sessions with a T last year through work and she was really helpful, got me thinking in all kinds of directions.  She helped me to be more assertive at work, but the r/s thing I need to unravel myself.  You've helped me tonight SB!

If I think about it, my partners have been more like chaotic rock gods than sensible family guys! 

It will be a challenge and I'm toying with the idea that I need to be alone for a while, though I won't turn down any sensible offers of a date... . just for practice purposes of course.  Actually though, being alone is getting easier by the day.

I have had periods of up to 2 years of being single during the time I was bringing up my son, with a bit of dating here and there, and they have been good in that I have grown and felt stronger.  I was at a point like that when I met the pwBPD and thought mistakenly that here was the one my alone time and growth had led me to... . Wrong!  I had some more learning to do.

[janey62]

I'm great at holding my own in print (my earliest refuge), and moderately good on the telephone, but being in the presence of another person -- until recently -- seemed to make me unable to know what I wanted. I'd worry instead about what they wanted. "Here, you drive, I don't care where we go. Just don't get mad at me."   

PrettyPlease, Do you think that might have been because of a fear of losing their love/respect/friendship if you didn't give them what they wanted? 

It's a tricky one, because if you go along with it, you can't then object to where you end up and extricating yourself becomes agonising... .   How did you overcome this?  You said, 'until recently'... .

Janey

[seeking balance]

Attractiveness is intensity!  Such a simple concept but it hasn't occurred to me like that before.

For me, I attach to "meet the bar, raise the bar" arrogance - yeah, not something I wanted to see at all.

If I think about it, my partners have been more like chaotic rock gods than sensible family guys! 

Well, that certainly is fun!  It depends on what you are looking for and reframing the word "settling".  I am learning to be attracted to simple and average now.

It will be a challenge and I'm toying with the idea that I need to be alone for a while, though I won't turn down any sensible offers of a date... . just for practice purposes of course.  Actually though, being alone is getting easier by the day.

Be honest with yourself on this - are you really sure you want to work on yourself or are you buying time until the next shiny toy walks by?  IF not honest, you will end up in the rabbit hole again is all.

I took a year off without any dating before I started dating again... . just for me.  I turned down all dates and spent that time with me as a choice.  NOT saying you have to do that, but I am saying that the discipline of putting me first has paid off.

[janey62]

You're right SB, even though it burns!  I think I may be a tiny bit addicted to relationships and the thought of opting out for a year is huge... . maybe I could take it a month at a time?  That's what I advise my clients who are in recovery to do.  'One day at a time' is the 12 Step way.

I've known this for a long time actually, that I really need to not think about it or look for the next 'shiny thing' until some significant alone time has been spent.

It's not the first exciting falling in love bit I crave, I actually often wish I could skip that bit because I find it so anxiety provoking.  I long for the 5/10/15 year mark, where all is calm and I can see the road ahead and feel safe.  That's the bit I ache for and have never had... . the family. 

Janey

[janey62]

I do really want to work on myself... .

[seeking balance]

You're right SB, even though it burns!  I think I may be a tiny bit addicted to relationships and the thought of opting out for a year is huge... . maybe I could take it a month at a time?  That's what I advise my clients who are in recovery to do.  'One day at a time' is the 12 Step way.

If you have the discipline to do it this way - that is fine.  But be honest with yourself.

I needed the time and even with it, the first few dates were emotionally challenging to relearn a new way of being in the world.

I've known this for a long time actually, that I really need to not think about it or look for the next 'shiny thing' until some significant alone time has been spent.

From 21 to 41, I was in a serious relationship with no more than 3 months in between... . I knew to do it too before my BPD marriage, but I was in T and I had read many books, maybe I didn't need that time... . yeah right! 

I long for the 5/10/15 year mark, where all is calm and I can see the road ahead and feel safe.  That's the bit I ache for and have never had... . the family. 

I get it - I wanted to belong in a secure family where "me" was enough... . too bad I continued to find the same old attractions.

I am not saying you have to go a year or even a month not dating, but there is a significant shift when I knowingly put my needs first... . and when I said "no" to a date because I was doing what I knew was best for me - there was power in that at a core level.  Learning how to break up with people or just date so I can really see who someone is takes time, but I certainly like me more now and treat my self with more value than I had in the past... . not sure if I would have gotten here any other way.  Sorry for the ramble - I will get off my soapbox now 

[PrettyPlease]

PrettyPlease, Do you think that might have been because of a fear of losing their love/respect/friendship if you didn't give them what they wanted?

I'm not completely sure. I think that's part of it now, but I think the source for me is earlier -- my mother's (and father's) emotional distance, their using of me for their own ends, their failure to respond to some of my emotional needs. Anger was not allowed, for instance, unless it was my mother's. So I think it's a form of fear of abandonment. 

It's a tricky one, because if you go along with it, you can't then object to where you end up and extricating yourself becomes agonising... .   How did you overcome this?  You said, 'until recently'... .

Since becoming conscious of the role of BPD in my life, and of my part in the dance, I've noticed that I've at least begun to notice, in the moment, when people display red flags and odd behaviors (lack of empathy, turning the conversation to themselves too much, too much display of awe about my life, etc.) I don't always notice as soon as I'd like, and I don't always have the social tools to gracefully deal with it when I do notice, but I feel there's a shift. It's no longer a realization that happens several months later when I'm frustrated, trapped, and depressed, like it used to. Better boundaries. Not good boundaries yet, but better.   

[janey62]

Sounds a lot healthier PrettyPlease... .

I wasn't allowed to be angry either - my mother was.  She would respond to our being angry with an explosion!  We learned to be angry silently.  

Yes, I think fear of abandonment is probably more accurate.  Some parents threaten that a lot.  My mother held the ace.  She would threaten suicide, attempt suicide to bring everyone in her life into line, the ultimate abandonment.

Things have changed for me since pwBPD.  Still working out how but I know something's changed.  I'm less able to hide from myself.  I've also noticed the red flags and turned down at least one date because I saw there were several of them.  In fact they were very big and I couldn't not notice.  

I think it's true that we can't go back from this, that's the beauty of it, it was so extreme that going back would be impossible.  I'm just at the stage where I don't yet know where I am, in a sort of holding station.

A place where I learn about my boundaries I think... .