Not sure what to do about this situation

[MusicCity123]

One of my children left home a few years ago to get away from his BPD mother. (my wife)  I am struggling with my own situation at home.  My wife is not as bad as she used to be, but given the right set of circumstances, I know she can be very angry and hurtful.  Anyway, my son has not stepped foot in his house for 3 years and has had little or no contact with his mother in the same amount of time.  He cut her completely off and has recently cut me completely off.  (This whole thing is completely tearing me apart because he and I had a great relationship) I loved being around him.  Now he wants nothing to do with me.  Something happened recently that has bothered me and I dont know what to do about it.

My wife is on Facebook and has many friends on there.  she posted on an innocent enough page about something and then a person she did not recognize posted an insult to her right below it.  It was right out of the blue. Then another person came to her defense and they became friends on Facebook.  Then that friend started to insult her and called her a very bad name.  Then the instant messages started hinting that it was her son.  While this was going on at home, I took over the conversation and found out that it was my son.  He had set her up to become her friend on Facebook so he could call her some names.  I was very shocked.  I revealed that I was now sitting at the computer and he said he never felt validated about his mother treating him horribly.  He then called me by my first name and that was it. (when he calls you by your first name instead of Mom or Dad, it's over in his mind)  I have tried calling him, emailing him etc and he does not respond.  I want to go visit him at work but am afraid that I will not like what I get.  I have never defended my wife with her behaviour.  I always took his side when the abuse happened.  I thought of divorce more times than I can count, but I made a vow to see this through, and although the pain and hurt is more than I can bear, the result of a divorce would be far graver than I could imagine.  I dont know how to handle my own son in this situation.  Is this a normal reaction to a hurt kid?  I want to hug him and tell him I love him, but he wont believe me.  This is just a horrible situation all the way around.  Advice?

[clljhns]

Hi MusicCity123,

Being a child of a uBPD, I can empathize with your son. I am curious as to why you think divorce would have been a worse option to staying. I wondered for many years why my dad would stay, given my mom's abusive behavior.

I don't know to what extent your son was abused. I know you state that you would defend him when you witnessed the abuse, but I wonder if your son feels as if this was enough. Is it possible that there were times that he was abused and you were not around to witness? Is it possible that he shared this with you and did not get validated?

You state that he told you he did not feel validated. This is a powerful statement and one in which I, as a parent, would want to explore with my child. If my daughter ever told me that I did not protect her, or validate her, it would be of utmost importance to address this with her and find the root of her feelings.

I find it interesting that your son created a FB page in which to express his anger and pain to his mom. It sounds as if he does not feel comfortable in expressing this directly. I think you need to consider that if he felt safe to share this with either one of you directly, that he probably would have.

You stated that you want to visit your son at work, but are afraid of the outcome. Perhaps that is the same reason your son doesn't confront you or mom directly.

If my daughter cut off contact, I would ask for a meeting in a neutral space, preferably with a therapist of her choice. I would then be open to hearing what she had to say. I think you should let your son direct how, when, and where any communication should happen. I also think that you should honor his request and if you are aware that mom is not always kind with her actions and words, then perhaps these meetings should occur without mom initially.

I don't know if what I have said resonates with you or even helps. One thing that I think should be the most important part of this equation is your son's requests and needs. If his needs have not been honored in the past, now is a time to show him that you can put him before mom.

Good luck 

[coraliesolange]

If you feel like the situation and feelings involved are intense or volatile, I would definitely suggest not visiting him at work.  That's his livelihood and ending up with a scene (even if you didn't start it) in front of his coworkers will definitely not help smooth things over.  I would be willing to guess that he has some trouble with how to handle anger and confrontation, and depending on how he was treated by your wife I think that's normal for someone in his position.  If you're never allowed to express your feelings then you never learn how.

I'm also curious why divorce would have been the worse option.  I asked my dad many times why he never left my mom and he never gave me an answer that was acceptable to me.  It was always she needs the house or I didn't want to cause problems for you kids (even though it would have been the best thing for us).  I'd definitely like to hear your take on your own situation.

[AsianSon]

Anyway, my son has not stepped foot in his house for 3 years and has had little or no contact with his mother in the same amount of time.  He cut her completely off and has recently cut me completely off.  (This whole thing is completely tearing me apart because he and I had a great relationship) I loved being around him.  Now he wants nothing to do with me.  Something happened recently that has bothered me and I dont know what to do about it.

My wife is on Facebook and has many friends on there.  she posted on an innocent enough page about something and then a person she did not recognize posted an insult to her right below it.  It was right out of the blue. Then another person came to her defense and they became friends on Facebook.  Then that friend started to insult her and called her a very bad name.  Then the instant messages started hinting that it was her son.  While this was going on at home, I took over the conversation and found out that it was my son.  He had set her up to become her friend on Facebook so he could call her some names.  I was very shocked.  I revealed that I was now sitting at the computer and he said he never felt validated about his mother treating him horribly.  He then called me by my first name and that was it. (when he calls you by your first name instead of Mom or Dad, it's over in his mind)  I have tried calling him, emailing him etc and he does not respond.  I want to go visit him at work but am afraid that I will not like what I get.  I have never defended my wife with her behaviour.  I always took his side when the abuse happened.  I thought of divorce more times than I can count, but I made a vow to see this through, and although the pain and hurt is more than I can bear, the result of a divorce would be far graver than I could imagine.  I dont know how to handle my own son in this situation.  Is this a normal reaction to a hurt kid?  I want to hug him and tell him I love him, but he wont believe me.  This is just a horrible situation all the way around.  Advice?

Hi MusicCity123,

My mother is uBPD and my father has some similarities to you.  So I might have some perspective that is similar to that of your son. 

First, what happened during the past 3 years?  You mentioned he recently cut you off, could that be linked to the FB activity and his communications with you there?  Perhaps you can review that for possible clues connected to your son's feeling of not being validated by you. 

As for the FB activity (both to your wife and you), your description sounds like it is out of character for him.  If so, it seems that something major has changed.  So you should prepare accordingly for when you are able to communicate with him. 

I agree with clljhns regarding possible meeting options (rather than at work), and perhaps it is better to start with just yourself and the relationship between the two of you first. 

From my experience, there have been instances of my father "throwing" me or my siblings "under the bus" to placate my uBPDm.  Whether intentional or not (and conscious or not), I think he hurts everyone involved when he does this. 

So I agree with clljhns in that you need to be willing to care for your son first AND own your role in whatever may have happened (factually or from your son's perspective).  Hopefully, this will help you and he restore the relationship between you two.  Progress there might help extend to progress between he and his mother. 

I don't know that any of the above is correct, and I hope these exchanges help. Please keep in touch.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, MusicCity123,

I am sorry you are in such a painful situation.   I can tell you care about your son and that his actions have hurt you. You mention he moved out a few years ago--I assume he is now an adult?

Is this a normal reaction to a hurt kid?

Your son sounds like he is in a lot of pain. I think feeling hurt and angry is definitely a "normal" response to having a parent with BPD. There is often a great deal of emotional trauma as well as a deficit of healthy coping skills being modeled in such an environment. Many adult children of people with BPD suffer from depression, anxiety, PTSD, and even BPD. You may find this article helpful in understanding some of these effects: How a Mother with Borderline Personality Disorder Affects Her Children

While the feelings your son seems to be experiencing may be normal given his upbringing, his behavior is definitely concerning. Creating a phony account in order to harass or insult his mother would not be an example of healthy behavior. It sounds like he may not have yet learned the skills he needs in order to cope with and express his feelings safely.

I revealed that I was now sitting at the computer and he said he never felt validated about his mother treating him horribly.

While it is not a good excuse for his behavior, this is still an important statement. Many of us who had a BPD parent have felt our other parent did not really acknowledge the abuse. I am curious--how did you respond when your son told you he did not feel validated by you?

Right now it sounds like your son is really struggling with his emotions and is not ready to talk with you. If he were, he would respond to your calls and e-mails. I think you are right that you would probably not like the result if you were to drop in on him at work at this point. It looks like he wants some space from you. What can you do to manage your own feelings in this situation? What behaviors can you own and take responsibility for, and what things are beyond your control?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[MusicCity123]

Thanks everyone for your insight and help.  All of the insight and various perspectives are helpful although some of them are like a slap across the face. (not a bad slap mind you, but a cold slap of reality)  The reason I have stayed with my wife basically is that she has nothing else.  No one else to take her in.  She has been a stay at home mother all our married life.  We have a house which she takes care of.   Gardening is one of the few things she gets great enjoyment from and I have always thought (as well as her two sisters) that if removed from that she would commit suicide.  Her mom died a week or two before Christmas this past year and that has been hard on her as well.  I always tried to think that things would change and that we could all get together and start to communicate again.    There has been zero communication between my son and his mom.  Sometimes I think his symptoms reflect her symptoms of BPD.  That worries me.

As far as him being validated,  everyone in all the family is on his side.  Everyone knows about everything in my household.  No one was immune to my wife's BPD.  For the past 2-3 years I wanted to talk about it but was pretty much avoided.  Just small talk on the phone.  the occassional lunch.  I wanted to talk about it but my son did not.

When he told me he did not feel validated about his abuse, I texted back to him that I most certainly was aware and so was everyone else about what happened.  I have never once for a moment believed that any of this was not real and that he was not a victim.  I will say this, this generation uses texting and emails to communicate.  I'm not good with that.  I do my best but I believe in talking one on one face to face.  He does not want to do that.  It seems like the only way he will ever reconcile with me is if I Divorce his mother.  If I divorce his mother things will fall apart in other ways.  I want healing all the way around, but maybe that isnt going to happen at all.    I offered to pay for counseling a year or two ago but he doesnt want to go with me.  My wife will not go to counseling.  I'm rambling now so I will stop.  Thank you all for being patient and offering your help.

[P.F.Change]

When he told me he did not feel validated about his abuse, I texted back to him that I most certainly was aware and so was everyone else about what happened.  I have never once for a moment believed that any of this was not real and that he was not a victim. 

It is good that you believe him. We have some good validation tools here that you may have already seen while working on your relationship with your wife. They may help when communicating with your son as well--they are great in all kinds of relationships. You might look at Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it and TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth.

It seems like the only way he will ever reconcile with me is if I Divorce his mother.

Has he asked you to do this?

I offered to pay for counseling a year or two ago but he doesnt want to go with me.

That was a thoughtful offer. Would it have been for just you and him?

[coraliesolange]

  The reason I have stayed with my wife basically is that she has nothing else.  No one else to take her in.  She has been a stay at home mother all our married life. 

This is essentially what my dad said, too, but he also made comments that it would have hurt us kids if they got divorced.  I don't think he realized exactly how much it hurt us to stay there.  I recognize that my dad was abused and that he didn't always make the best decisions because of it.  Your son may not realize that you've been abused as well.  He may be in too much pain to see what other people are feeling.  I wouldn't recommend saying it to him because he may view it as an excuse, but it might be something you should explore on your own for your own well-being.  If you are afraid to leave your wife because you're afraid she'll kill herself, she is holding you hostage emotionally and it's abuse.  Your son may have picked up some BPD traits from his mother.  It's very common.  I have some also.  And it will make it that much harder to deal with.  Maybe you could try offering to pay for therapy again, and be willing to do group sessions with him.  Has your wife ever agreed to any sort of help?  Have you asked her?  In the end if he chooses to leave the family, that's his decision but at least you can try to let him know that you care and want to try to help.

[coraliesolange]

Also, not sure if you have any privacy but if you do, you might benefit from reading The Borderline Mother.  It's a little pricey but it outlines various common manifestations of BPD in mothers and how it affects their kids as well as outlining common traits of the fathers.  It might give you insight that could help you understand and talk to him.

[P.F.Change]

Also, not sure if you have any privacy but if you do, you might benefit from reading The Borderline Mother.  It's a little pricey but it outlines various common manifestations of BPD in mothers and how it affects their kids as well as outlining common traits of the fathers.  It might give you insight that could help you understand and talk to him.

We have a review of this book here. Understanding the Borderline Mother

[Cassy]

Well, you've made your choice and you're not going to have it both ways. Your commitment to your wife meant more than saving your son or having a relationship with him and it still does. It sucks, but unless he just forgives you in time, I don't think there's anything you can do. You're asking him to basically ignore abuse, but he won't be able to move forward if he does that. It's almost worse that you knew about it... . yet didn't take him out of the situation? A parent's job is to protect their children. Would you have allowed a neighbour to abuse him?

My mother and step-father were that way. Their relationship trumped everything. My step-father died without ever seeing his biological daughter again and my mother is pretty lonely and miserable.

These choices destroy families, especially children. I just don't get it.

[Louise7777]

Im with Cassy. I dont get it either. A parent´s priority must be the kids and not himself (or his wife). You cant make an abused person to forgive and forget. Especially, cause given the opportunity, he will be hurt again.

[rebl.brown]

You've gotten a lot of replies on this one.  In a lot of ways I find you amazing, the fact that you admit anything and are even trying to understand is so important.  Without knowing very much about your situation or your son I would just advocate that you respect him and whatever he needs to do for now.  Maybe in the future he'll be able to renew or heal a relationship with you but please don't go to his work.  BPD's disregard boundaries and what he's been through with his Mom it won't end well.  You're in a terrible situation, you got a little taste of the anger in the last two replies I'm kinda surprised you didn't get more.  We're all influenced by whatever our particular situation was but I see some of my Dad in your words.  He's tried, he sees some of the abuse but if he knew, I mean really knew what went on I think it would kill him.  No matter what you think you do not really know what your son experienced and the only thing you can do now is work on yourself and do everything you can even if that means leaving him alone to respect him.  I was never able to heal my relationship with my father because he could not bear to hear what really happened his own pain was too much for him to listen to any of mine.  I have hated him as much as my mother at times.  He is old and its too late for us but over the years there were many times it might have been different. 

You do  know the old, "I can't work and can't function without you cause all I do is take care of the house" is an old BPD trick.  She's playing the waif on you.  She will never let you go and she will never function well with or without you.  The question is what do YOU want?

[G.J.]

I haven't read all of the responses, so if I'm repeating what others are saying, I apologize.

Dr. Alice Miller did a lot of work in the area of children who grew up in abusive homes.  One thing that her research revealed was that an abused child having another parent or caretaker who acted as a "Sympathetic Witness" was crucial to the child's healthy development.  This is a person who validates the child's experience and tells the child directly and consistently, "It's not your fault.  It is cruel behavior.  It's not ok and I won't abandon you with this."

I'm a daughter of a uBPD mother, and I can tell you that the #1 thing I struggled with in my childhood -- and what later affected me in massive ways as an adult -- was a lack of validation regarding my mother's abusive and crazy behavior (or lack of a Sympathetic Witness).

While my dad was often the one to "come to my rescue" and defend me to my mother, and intervene in our crazy fights, and get her to stop attacking me, etc etc etc... .   I guess I saw a difference between that, and truly sitting me down and saying, "Look, your mom's behavior is NOT ok.  You've done nothing wrong.  This isn't your fault.  She is being inappropriate and abusive.  I may not be able to control her, but I will continue to intervene.  You're not alone with this."

Because I wasn't getting that message directly, I often felt confused about what was going on.  Were these each isolated incidents?  Was I THAT difficult to get along with?  Was mom right and I was really a bad kid?  Were my perceptions of her and our arguments off-base?  Was I overreacting to her tirades?  It turns out that I internalized ALL of those messages in the affirmative, AND I believed that my dad thought those things about me too, because he never directly told me otherwise.  (Or at least not as frequently as my mother was telling me horrible things about myself.)

It's only been recently that my dad and I have spoken about this.  He said that he thought parents weren't supposed to bad-mouth each other, and they were supposed to present a united front, and he was too afraid that if he alerted me to (or acknowledged) just how crazy my mom was, that it would be too difficult for me to deal with.  He also said that he just figured I knew that he thought she was crazy -- he didn't think he had to tell me, as he felt it was obvious.  Little did he understand, that that validation was EXACTLY what I needed, to come out of that situation with a shred of sanity.  It's only now that he and I are communicating about this and he's finally validating me, that I'm starting to heal and get myself emotionally healthy.

The T that is working with both my dad and I, has told him that in a "conventional family" where one parent does not have a PD, his principles hold true.  But when one parent is SO off the charts, the kids really do need to hear, "This isn't ok and it's not your fault."  In my case, my T also told my dad that it would have been most appropriate and in mine and my sister's best interest, had he divorced my mother and then fought for full custody -- no matter how much money, resources, time and grief it took to make it happen.

It also occurs to me that your son may be lumping you in with your wife, just by association.  For instance, my next-door neighbor is an alcoholic with a bad temper.  Her husband is a lovely guy who I enjoy quite a bit.  But when she starts going off on me in a drunken tirade, and he starts playing peace-keeper (not being able to completely take my side, because he has to go to bed with her later that night) -- I end up lumping him in with her.  Her behavior has gotten so bad, that I don't speak to either of them anymore, even though none of this is his fault.  My T said that this is a typical psychological phenomenon.  You can't really "break up" a married couple in your mind, and they end up getting viewed as a "team" even if only one of them is the perpetrator.  If the other stands by and doesn't abandon the abuser, the victim sees them as one in the same.  In retrospect, I often viewed my father in the same light.  He may have been defending me, but he was still married to my abuser.

I know that I also held the notion that my father could control my mother's behavior and make her stop, if he had really wanted to.  Or at the very least, he could have divorced her and taken me with him.  It wasn't until my own friends started having children of their own, and I started seeing how little control they had as parents over the various things and people their children came into contact with -- and how difficult and messy divorces and custody battles are -- that I realized how difficult a position my father had been in.  But that took a lot of maturity and life experience, before I was able to recognize that -- and then associate that knowledge back to my own childhood.

So what to do about your son?  I can't say for sure... .   Maybe you could find a T that's knowledgeable in dealing with mothers with BPD and see what they have to say?  Or maybe you could start going to therapy and when your son sees you making some changes and gaining new insights, maybe he'll feel more compelled to join you?  Or maybe you could send him an email asking him what he needs from you right now?

As for offering to pay for him to go to therapy -- my dad has paid for all of my therapy.  While I appreciate the financial support, because it becomes outrageously expensive -- I have to tell you that I really wish he had just done something about the situation in the first place.  He may have had a "responsibility" to my mother as her husband.  But he brought my sister and I into the world, and we were his innocent children that he had an even greater responsibility to.  I wish he would have gotten us away from her, instead of relying on some shrinks to fix us in the aftermath.

At the very least, maybe send him an email telling him that you love him very much, you miss your relationship with him, you're here if he ever needs anything or decides he wants to talk, but you understand and respect that he's upset and angry, and you won't force yourself on him.  And then maybe just send him an email once a month reiterating all of that, and let him come to you.  He may just really need some time and space from the entire situation.

My biggest piece of advice to you would be this:  I would not necessarily close yourself off to any options (divorce, custody, etc) just because it "seems" impossible.  I know for a fact that my dad's greatest regret in life, that to this day (20 years later) keeps him up at night, is not having gotten me and my sister out of that situation.  The consequences to both of us have been enormous, and even though I was getting good grades, was very active in school, had a good social life, went to college, never did drugs or got in trouble -- internally, I was a MESS.  It has taken YEARS of therapy to even begin to undo the psychological and emotional damage that my mother did to me, as well as what the family dynamics as a whole did to me.  My sister has recently been diagnosed with BPD herself, and my T said it's a direct result of the abuse we suffered as kids.  While my dad didn't perpetrate the crime, I know he feels horrible about the fact that he basically stood by and let it happen (even though it killed him to watch it).

To give you a picture of where my family is at now:  I have been NC with my mother for 12 years.  She has a paltry existence, but that is HER choice to not get help for her problems and make a better life for herself.  Thanks to her, I've done more than a decade of intense therapy, I have a library of self-help and books on Borderline, and I am now attending Al-Anon and Self Empowerment Workshops for added support.  While I'm successful in many areas of my life, my personal life has suffered greatly and I have endured a lot of added abuse, having been conditioned to that kind of behavior and "trained" how to accept it and believe that it's my fault.

I've been NC with my sister for 3 years.  She is anorexic, an alcoholic, a drug addict, and claims to have a sex addiction.  She has been homeless, in the hospital repeatedly from her boyfriend beating her up, is a pathological liar, and at times we've had to have a Private Detective FIND her because we have no idea where she is.  She has recently been diagnosed with BPD and we're working to get her admitted into an in-patient psych facility for the next 6-12 months.  Even IF she agrees to go, her prognosis is very poor.

Things didn't start out this way... .   While my sister showed some subtle signs of BPD in her teens and early 20's, the full-blown stuff didn't start until her 30's, because there was no early intervention.  Years ago, she went to college, had a job, had a social life and wasn't doing TOO bad.  Now, we prepare for her untimely death, every single day... .   And forget the notion of forgiveness, one big happy family, some sort of reconciliation, etc.  That fantasy was given up a LONG time ago by all of us.

I hate to tell you this, but this is what your situation could devolve into, if you just keep letting it ride like my dad did.  Your children are not experiencing your wife in the same manner that you are.  She is their MOTHER.  You are an adult, and she is not the woman who brought you into this world and is responsible for your existence.  Your children not only experienced abuse that they were utterly ill equipped to handle, but it was also done by the very person who is supposed to love, protect and cherish you even when the rest of the world doesn't.  She also just modeled for your children what women are like, and how to expect to be treated by a woman.

Growing up, there was a billboard that had a picture of a really ugly kid on it, with the caption, "A face only a mother could love."  And I used to cry, every time I saw it.  If a mother could love THAT child, how come mine couldn't love ME?  No matter how much therapy I do, I think I'll be asking that question until the day I die.

Just some things to think about.  I wish you luck with your situation.  It's not easy, and I know it's a nightmare for everyone.

[MusicCity123]

If I can ask a question for everyone who has posted on my response.  These people are loved ones, they are family and I know those who suffer from BPD can act cruel and mean at times.  But are they sociopaths ?  I trying to figure all of this out.  My wife can be kind and sweet, even to her own children over the years.  My wife used to read them books at night and laugh and have fun.  My wife took my son (the one who has cut ties completely with me and his mother) to concerts and had good memories.  She even home schooled both my boys for a couple of years.  But as the kids got a little older things would happen, anger and lashing out.  Classic BPD signs that I am now learning about.  But does all the negative negate all the positive?  I think this is why some of us husbands and fathers stay.  We all are hoping for a glimmer of hope that things will change.  Maybe it is a pipe dream but I would like to ask the children of BPD parents who posted on my subject,  Do you ever see yourself forgiving those who hurt you and realizing that this is a mental disorder and not a person just being a b___ and acting out of hatred ?  Believe me I am not saying "forgive and forget" because the damage done to you has been real and has caused lifelong trauma.  I am just asking if you think this condition is something that is deliberate or something these people who suffer from it wish they never had?

I have two boys, both were affected by their mother.  My oldest has forgiven her and although he is not close to his mom, he can come home to visit, they can talk on the phone and he acknowledges the past and has done his best to move on. He says "I love you" to her.  Maybe its all an act and he does this to keep the peace, who knows right?  But he knows that his mother never meant to hurt him with anger. 

My other son has left and cut me off completely.  I emailed him yesterday saying I understand how he feels.  I told him that I would rather have a happy son without me in his life than a miserable son with me in his life. I know what he really wants is me in his life with me being divorced.  But I have to do what I feel is best for me right now.  Anyway I have rambled on too much.  I would like to know what everyone thinks about what I have posted.  I really do want whats best for my family.

[clljhns]

MusicCity123,

"Do you ever see yourself forgiving those who hurt you and realizing that this is a mental disorder and not a person just being a b___ and acting out of hatred ?"

Yes! I have forgiven my parents and pray for the day that they call and say they are sorry and they love me! When I confronted my dad about all of the abuse, I told him then that I did not hate either one of them and that I wished them well. I also told him that all I really wanted was healing for our family. This meant that everything would have to be dealt with openly and honestly! Nothing hidden! No more sweeping things under the carpet! It has been 10 years, and they still haven't called.

I wonder if you can put yourself in your sons shoes? Can you think of a time when someone hurt you and all you wanted was for them to tell you how sorry they were that they did x, y and z? I mean a real heart-felt apology. One that throws open the doors to the pain they caused and shines a light on this wound so that it can begin to heal. Now, if you have such a memory, then remember how validating, comforting, healing, and FORGIVING this all felt. Forgiveness is not something that is perfunctory, it is earned.

Now think about a time when someone hurt you and did not accept responsibility for their actions and words. How did this feel? Did you feel betrayed, unloved, unworthy, and angry? Imagine a child whose very essence and existence depends upon their parents. The child looks to the parent for conformation of their self-worth through acts of compassion and kindness. This is not say that you would not teach your child create boundaries through discipline. BPD's don't have boundaries. They believe that their needs are the MOST important needs at all times. They aren't able to recognize the needs of their children, and therefore after they assault them emotionally, physically, or sexually, they feel better, but are not cognizant of how the child feels in response to their actions.

As to your question about being a sociopath, I don't know your wife and don't know her behaviors. I will tell you that I was married to an anti-social man who constantly gas-lighted me and would actually smile once he had me so upset that I was crying. He denied all of his actions, even when I caught him in one of his many affairs. His answer to me was "Well, I should have just told you, then you wouldn't be so upset." Clearly he had no ability to empathize and has a long train wreck of relationships after we divorced. I took a class on abnormal psychology in college, and he fit the criteria for anti-social personality disorder. I haven't listed all of his behaviors that fit the criteria, but you can look up the DSM-IV definition of a sociopath to see if your wife fits the criteria. I would caution you though, as a licensed T would be better able to make the diagnosis. Have you shared your concerns with your T?

I know I am probably rattling on here, but I hope I have answered your questions. I like  the message you sent your son. Keep doing this. Just remember, he is the wounded one and needs a lot of patience and love. I would also add that I am not so sure that the only resolution your son wants is for you to divorce his mom. I would guess that the ultimate resolution he would want is for mom and you to openly admit everything and then be open to change and healing. You said you want what is best for the family. That is what would be best for the family. If that is not something that mom is willing to explore, then as a parent myself, I would explore other options that would the best for healing of the family.

Peace and blessings

[MusicCity123]

Thank you Clljhns

I appreciate your words.  You just dont know how much I appreciate your words.  I have said "I am sorry" to my son many times"  I tell him I love him everyday through emails and texts.  I put myself in his shoes every night when I am lying in bed trying to fall asleep.  It makes be angry and scared and hurt thinking about how he feels.  He told me once last year when he and I went for a drive.  I told him how sorry I was for the way his mother treated him.  He told me that the past is the past and he forgave me. 

When he lost his job last year I gave him freely 200 dollars here,  100 dollars there,  lots of money when he needed it.  He totalled his car late last year and I gave him my other car.  the one his mother drives and now we only have one car.  I know these things are just things and not necessarily love but I have tried my best to be there for him.

He wants me to divorce his mother.  Plain and simple.  That is his idea of validation.  Until I do that then I guess he will have nothing to do with me.  OK I picture a divorce.  Problem solved !  Right ?  The serious problems would then begin.  The consequences would be pretty harsh.  I have talked with her family about it and it would not end well.  Maybe there is no right answer here, only the wrong one that would be less harmful. 

[clljhns]

Have you read the Hermit, the Queen, the Waif, and the Witch? Look under resources on this site. I think it might give you some insight into your wife's behaviors. Also read how a BPD mother affects her children. Some great resources here for you to explore.

As to giving your son money and a car, I see that as being a parent. Just being supportive when things are a huge struggle for our children.

Saying I'm sorry with no action behind it may be the sticking point for your son. I know that if my parents apologized, and then continued their abusive behaviors, it wouldn't mean much.

I wish you peace.

[G.J.]

Sorry, MusicCity123 -- my response is really long.  But I do hope it's helpful.  I think it's great that you're asking all of these questions and that you want to learn.  There are a lot of helpful resources on this site, as well as books and other websites out there.  It takes a lot of research and time to really begin to understand BPD.  I first found out about it I think back in 2006 or so, and realized my mother was uBPD and finally had a bit of an explanation for my crazy childhood.  It's taken the past 8 years to really start to put the pieces together and understand the nature of this disease.  Now recognizing that I've come into close contact with quite a few BPD's in my life, the patterns and internal-logic of the disease are much more clear to me now.  What I've written is JUST my opinion and personal experiences, but I hope it can at least give you some things to contemplate, and maybe even help along the way. 

These people are loved ones, they are family and I know those who suffer from BPD can act cruel and mean at times.  But are they sociopaths ?

I could not have said this a few years ago, but I do believe all people are a child of God.  And I believe that people's abusive behavior is due to whatever character defects and issues they have accumulated over the years, and have failed to resolve.  I think most people -- especially those in pain, or those who have been abused -- are often just doing whatever they NEED to do, for their very SURVIVAL.  It's been difficult, but I am coming to accept that "if they knew better, they would do better."  But some people were born with limited emotional resources and abilities.  Some were not given the resources and skills they needed to become healthy and mature adults.  Some were abused or neglected so severely that they don't know how to do anything other than perpetuate that same abuse on to others.  Some have become so needy, with so very few inner resources, that they have to take take take from the world and the people around them, and have so little (or absolutely nothing) left over to even think -- much less care -- about how their actions are affecting others, or what someone else may need -- even their own children.

To answer your question directly, my understanding of a Sociopath is someone without a conscience.  Someone who is -- at their core -- truly incapable of feeling empathy.

I do not think that pwBPD ARE Sociopaths, but I DO believe that at times, they BEHAVE sociopathically.  Meaning, I think underneath it all, they have a conscience.  When not feeling needy, threatened, abandoned, etc -- they can put themselves in other's shoes and imagine how the other person might be feeling and care about it.  These are the times that you see their loving, caring, giving behavior.  Reading your children a bedtime story isn't triggering for her.  The children were very young, had not yet started fighting for their individuality and independence, and she felt needed, adored and admired.  Her self-esteem was being "fed" and she felt "full."  When a person feels "full" they have much to give others.

Contrarily, when a person feels "empty" -- and SO empty that they fear for their very emotional survival -- the only thing they can do, is take take take.  Therefore, **when a pwBPD gets triggered** their ability to feel empathy can become non-existent, because they are too overwhelmed with their own needs and feelings.  They don't have the capacity to see and understand how their behavior is affecting someone else.  They don't have the capacity to even CARE what the other person is going through, because they are so consumed with fighting for their emotional survival.  I think to them, it's like they are drowning, and their child is complaining about a stubbed toe.  Mom's gonna save herself from drowning (in her world, that comes in the form of raging, abusing, punishing, blaming, suffocating, etc to avoid abandonment) before she tends to her child's stubbed toe (in his world, his pain, fear, needs, etc).  To the pwBPD, EVERYTHING outside of her pales in comparison to how she's feeling and what she needs.  THAT is how empty and needy she feels inside.  While it doesn't make sense from the outside -- how can they not see the terror and pain their own child is in? -- it makes sense to them.  Little Bobby crying over being yelled at is NOTHING compared to mom feeling like she's fighting for her next breath... .   Does that kind of make sense?

But as the kids got a little older things would happen, anger and lashing out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet you could rewrite this sentence to say:  As the kids started individuating, branching out and becoming their own person, wanting some space from mom, were no longer putting her on a pedestal and agreeing to her every wish and command, started having a life outside of the family, etc -- that's when the anger and lashing out started.

This could also be rewritten to say:  When the kids stopped "feeding" mom, mom felt abandoned and started lashing out, as she had no inner resources to fill herself up on her own.  Mom felt empty, now had nothing to give her children, and felt wronged by her children for abandoning her and no longer providing her with the emotional care-taking that she needed.  In them trying to be their own person, mom felt like she was losing a part of herself, and could not tolerate the "distance" that her kids were rightfully asking for.  Her only coping mechanism when feeling like this is to rage and lash out and say and do crazy things -- thereby punishing her children for doing the exact thing that healthy children are SUPPOSED to do at that age -- separating from mom.

These states of being "filled" versus "empty" (or loving versus raging) don't cross an absolute threshold, from one to the other and then never back again.  pwBPD can cycle through these states in a matter of minutes, hours, days, months, years, etc.  It all depends on outside stimuli and what's going on in their world and whether or not their fear of abandonment is being triggered.  Sometimes they paint people black and others white -- and sometimes they won't adjust their viewpoint on those people.  Sometimes they switch back and forth on the same person -- one day (week, month, year, decade) a person is white, and the next they're black, and then white again.  There's no real "formula" to it that an outsider can see -- and that's what makes it so crazy making for those on the receiving end.

For instance, until I REALLY began to understand BPD, it took me a DECADE to figure out why every single time I got a new job, there was some HUGE irrational drama with my uBPDm.  Now, it's so obvious -- she viewed this as an abandonment.  She feared I'd have less time for her, she feared I'd make new friends, she feared I would have more autonomy and need her less, she feared this meant I was rejecting her.  In response, she created some enormous fight between the two of us, that on the one hand forced me to engage with her, but on the other hand pushed me away ("I hate you, don't leave me".  All I knew, was that mom was furious with me, I had unknowingly done something wrong, I didn't need the stress at that point in my life, and for the life of me I had no idea what was going on or how to make it stop... .   If someone doesn't REALLY understand the inner workings of the mind of a pwBPD, they would never see this pattern or the cause of it.  To expect a child to understand this type of behavior, is asking WAY too much.

But does all the negative negate all the positive?

It's not that the negative NEGATES the positive.  It's that the positive sometimes does not OUTWEIGH the negative.  I can tell you all kinds of lovely qualities about both my mother and my sister, and things I really do like/love about them.  That doesn't mean they're healthy enough for me to maintain a relationship with them.

We all are hoping for a glimmer of hope that things will change.

As I said in my last response, my father kept up that glimmer of hope that one day things will change, all the way to my sister's demise.  Be careful that you're not doing the same.  Once you become willing to see reality for what it is, things get a LOT easier.  You may be forced to make some difficult decisions (right now, my father is working on getting my sister admitted to an in-patient Psych Hospital -- believe me, that is NOT a pleasant thing to accept or deal with, for ANY of us) however, it's better that the situation gets handled appropriately, because THEN there can be some hope for change.  Staying in denial and NOT dealing with situations appropriately, just ENSURES that things will only get worse.

Do you ever see yourself forgiving those who hurt you and realizing that this is a mental disorder and not a person just being a b___ and acting out of hatred ?

Forgiveness is a VERY tricky thing.  There are a lot of components to it, and certain things that make it more difficult or easier on the person doing the forgiving.  I agree with clijhns that if the person doesn't apologize, that's a big barrier to forgiveness.  Even if the person DOES apologize, but still continues the behavior (mom) or still continues to support, ignore or condone the behavior (you) -- that is another huge barrier to forgiveness.  People have been known to forgive even when the other person is not sorry and continues the behavior (victims of concentration camps, Holocaust survivors, etc) but that is extremely difficult, and more the exception than the norm.

Many people spend their LIFETIME trying to figure out how to forgive their abusers.  It typically takes a LOT of therapy, a LOT of inner child work, and a LOT of personal growth and insight to get to that level.  Look to the right on this page under "Survivor's Guide to Childhood Abuse."  There are 21 Steps to recovering from abuse.  Number EIGHTEEN is about forgiveness.  Your son has 17 Steps to work BEFORE he even gets to that place.

Expecting your ~20yo son to be able to forgive his mother for years of abuse is WAY too much to ask of him right now.  The fact that your other son "has" forgiven her, is irrelevant.  They are two different people, had two different experiences with her (unless they're conjoined twins), and your other son may not have "forgiven" your wife on the level that you think he has.  (In fact, I would bet that he hasn't.  I will even go so far as to say, that the son that is acting like everything is ok, may actually be the one you need to worry about more.)

I am just asking if you think this condition is something that is deliberate or something these people who suffer from it wish they never had?

Typically, I think pwBPD have so little self-awareness, that they don't fully recognize just how wrong something is with them.  I also think they don't typically have enough self-esteem to even face it honestly, even if they do recognize it.  In order to "wish they never had it" they have to acknowledge that they have it in the first place.  And then once they acknowledge it, they have a responsibility to DO SOMETHING about it.  But that takes self-esteem, maturity, courage, and a whole host of other things that pwBPD typically don't have enough of.

Do I think it's deliberate?  In that they wake up in the morning saying, "I'm going to make my kid's life a living hell just for the fun of it today" -- definitely not.  (Although, I'll tell you that in my teens and early twenties, it sure did SEEM that way to me.)  So yes, I can have some compassion for them, because they have a mental illness.  But at the same time, just like a diabetic has a responsibility to eat properly, exercise, take their medication and go to the doctor regularly -- pwBPD ALSO have a responsibility to get treatment for their disease.  At least if a diabetic doesn't get help, they are the only person they harm.  When pwBPD don't get treatment, they are not the only person that suffers.

[Louise7777]

Since you asked some questions, Ill try to respond them. Sorry in advance if its not what you expected to hear.

First, my parents are not BPD. But I was raised in a small family, living nearby and I was parentified and abused/ disrespected by uBPD relatives.

You asked if we can forgive.

I cant. They never said Im sorry and above all, never stopped their brutal behaviour. So, given the opportunity, Id get it again. Im NC/ VLC (no contact/ very low contact). Actually, I dont even need to hear an apology, it would be nice to see normal and warm behaviour coming from them. But it will never happen. They are uncapable of realizing the world doesnt revolve around them and their needs.

I can speak from my own experience only and I have seen from this particular uBPD aunt a very cruel and mean sadistic behaviour. Meaning she gets happy when people are sick or not doing well in life in general. I have seen her smirk, her joy when inflicting pain. Maybe shes an extreme case, but she feels no remorse, has no empathy or love for anybody. She uses people as tools. So, she really does it on purpose. To me, whatever the label is (BPD NPD or whatever) makes no difference. What matters is that her behaviour is selfish and cruel. Labelling her mentally ill doesnt justify or explain her actions (at least  thats how I see it).

Regarding your 2 sons and their different reactions: maybe one was the golden child and the other was the scapegoat. Or maybe they just have different personalities and ways to deal with life.

You asked if they are sociopaths. Nobody can diagnose, but I believe  one of mine has many of the traits: incapacity for love, lack of empathy, superficial charm, manipulative, parasitic lifestyle, etc. I got a list from this website, not sure its a good source: www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

[lucyhoneychurch]

Hi, MusicCity... . my goodness... . there are some really awesome, strategic-type posts above. Alot of energy has gone into my fellow grown adult children of uBPDs' responses.

I went back to your initial post in this thread, and this statement of yours made me really curious, and maybe back it up a bit and describe if you'd like what you meant - it would maybe create a background for comments from us further, I don't know:

"My wife is not as bad as she used to be, but given the right set of circumstances, I know she can be very angry and hurtful."

I was curious what you meant about "not as bad as she used to be," how so? and also, some examples of "the right set of circ's," and then what kind of angry and hurtful?

Because based on answers to that, you have a real framework of what your son is dreading. Like forever dreading. Because just that idea that she is still volatile, still "hurtful," whatever "not as bad" might entail - I have a feeling he's thinking, as I did for 40 years... . yes 4-0... . that it was going to be either her or me.  

He doesn't see any silver lining. He sees no reason to expose himself again to what he knew his first 2 decades of life - 2-0 years - what experience(s) has he had except utter misery in her presence?

Him calling you by your first name is actually a sign of his effort to be autonomous. I started the same with both of my parents as I went NC over 12 yrs ago. It helped create a huge space in my head between them and me.  "Mom" and ":)ad" are terms of endearment in affectionate, loving families. I was sick of acting.

I would actually encourage both of them, if you can, to visit this website. Promise them you will never read here on the "parent" page - then don't do it.

Act on what is best for your son's welfare - him finding his inner calm and right to a life without pain and abuse is the only goal you should have. If that involves you, I'll be surprised. Honestly, not trying to be hard on you. Just what I'm reflecting on as a child of a woman like her.

And I am probably your age, early 50s, so it's not like any of this is new to me. All of us here could write textbooks on life with abusive parents.

Tell your sons that there are adults, both young and older, on this website who discuss how to cope, how to keep going, how to work on thriving instead of just surviving a childhood like theirs.

Let them have privacy to post if they are willing to.

Validating words from other targets of abuse could mean so much. It has to me over the years.

You learn that you are not alone. Like any trauma, compassion amongst survivors breeds strength, I think.

I'm very sorry you are living like this.  

[AsianSon]

But are they sociopaths ? 

I think it depends on the definition of sociopath, and from some of your remarks, it seems that intent (or some kind of willfulness) is a part of your definition. 

For example,

Do you ever see yourself forgiving those who hurt you and realizing that this is a mental disorder and not a person just being a b___ and acting out of hatred ?  Believe me I am not saying "forgive and forget" because the damage done to you has been real and has caused lifelong trauma.  I am just asking if you think this condition is something that is deliberate or something these people who suffer from it wish they never had?

Please don't misunderstand me as attacking your question (or view).  For example, I think G.J. probably at least has a similar interpretation:[/quote]

I could not have said this a few years ago, but I do believe all people are a child of God.  And I believe that people's abusive behavior is due to whatever character defects and issues they have accumulated over the years, and have failed to resolve.  I think most people -- especially those in pain, or those who have been abused -- are often just doing whatever they NEED to do, for their very SURVIVAL.  It's been difficult, but I am coming to accept that "if they knew better, they would do better." 

But regarding the idea that a pwBPD isn't aware or doesn't know, I think that human weakness is used as an out even when they are aware.  I think that BPD behaviors, especially when confronted, can generate a great deal of self-justification and self-rationalization which can then take root and used again and again.  And this can be increased by enablers who let the behaviors continue. 

So does sociopath include a person who, when made aware of their hurtful behaviors, is so weak as to justify or rationalize away the behaviors?  The answer could be "yes" because if they know, and give into their weakness, then it might be deliberate to some people. 

But then again, the answer could be "no" because the weakness might be part of the BPD that they have no control over.  I think you and G.J. might see it this way. 

Personally, my answer is "it doesn't matter."  Regardless of the label (whether sociopath, victim of the past, personality disorder, etc), BPD behaviors still cause pain and hurt to others.   

Instead, what matters to me is that I stop or limit the negative effects of the BPD behaviors on me and my family (wife and kids).  Each of your sons seems to have tried their own way to do this for themselves.  The relative success might seem clear, but it is only clear for now.  As time passes, experiences happen, and conditions change, the relative success may also change. 

But does all the negative negate all the positive? 

Again, it depends on the point of view.  None of us can know or feel the exact experience of another person.  So different people with different experiences will answer a comparative question like this one, differently. 

For me, I agree with G.J. in that the negatives outweigh the positives.  Of course this is a balancing issue again. 

I told him that I would rather have a happy son without me in his life than a miserable son with me in his life. I know what he really wants is me in his life with me being divorced.  But I have to do what I feel is best for me right now. 

If your son has actually communicated his express desire to you, I suggest you review some of the techniques in this website so that you are prepared to help him understand your point of view when (or if) you have meaningful communications with him.  While you are a father to him, you are entitled to doing what you feel is right.  The possibility of SET comes to mind. 

But remember that in his mind, he might focus on the fact that you are the father and so have responsibilities to both him and your wife (his mom).  While divorce might seem to be a bright line that seems unambiguous (to him and you), the real issue might be how you treat him vs. how you treat your wife.  And perhaps you and he can focus on that to find options other than divorce. 

I ran across this just today when I called my parents.  My BPDm slowly, but surely, drifted into a suggestion which became a requirement that I meet them in this Saturday.  I said no, because I was doing something else (a boundary), but I am flexible on Sunday to meet them.

Of course this was not acceptable to her and she lost control ("I don't want you to meet me!  I don't need to see you!".  My father then takes the phone to insist that I was inept and unable to please my BPDm.  I understand his point of view, which was that I should cave in to her demands because (the rationalization/justification is that) it would make her happy and be easier for him AND whatever I was thinking doesn't really matter.  (And what is wrong with her wanting to see me on Saturday?) 

The sad part about all this is that he did not put him and me in this situation, and as much as they might insist otherwise, I did not put him and me in this situation.  It was her BPD, but he cannot see it (and probably wouldn't accept it if presented with it).  So he views it as I didn't "go along" to keep her happy.  I view it as BPD must have things her way. 

Did he and I each do what was best for each of us?  I suspect he had a full set of BPD behaviors to deal with after the call ended.  For me, the first few minutes afterward were tough, but then it dissipated faster and faster.  This reply helped me.  Maybe it will help others.     

[G.J.]

Just to clarify, because it sounds like I may have come across in a manner I did not intend... .

So does sociopath include a person who, when made aware of their hurtful behaviors, is so weak as to justify or rationalize away the behaviors?  The answer could be "yes" because if they know, and give into their weakness, then it might be deliberate to some people. 

But then again, the answer could be "no" because the weakness might be part of the BPD that they have no control over.  I think you and G.J. might see it this way.

My straight-up answer is:  I don't think any of us can truly speak to anyone else's "intent" regarding anything.  Additionally, I believe we are also incapable of accurately knowing whether or not someone else DOES have the strength to get help, but is using weakness as an excuse -- or if they are TRULY that weak and cannot do what it takes to face themselves and make changes.

I personally CHOOSE to believe that "if they knew better, they'd do better."  Whether or not that's accurate, I have no idea.  But it helps me attain a level of forgiveness (which is for MY benefit, not theirs) and let go of my bitterness and resentment.

THIS statement, I 100% agree with, and think is really the only important issue at hand:

Personally, my answer is "it doesn't matter."  Regardless of the label (whether sociopath, victim of the past, personality disorder, etc), BPD behaviors still cause pain and hurt to others.

I used to get very wrapped up in "intent."  As if somehow if they didn't MEAN to be hurting me, then the abuse wasn't really THAT bad and maybe I had an obligation to stand by this person.  But after decades of torturing myself with this nonsensical idea, one beautiful day, it finally dawned on me: WHO CARES what their intent is?  Who CARES if they can or can't stop it if they wanted to?  I'm still being abused!  Making a decision on how to handle the situation, based on the other person's INTENT, is like saying, "I'll stand in the middle of the street in front of this speeding car coming at me, and as long as the driver doesn't MEAN to hit me, then I'll let him do it.  I'll only move out of the way if he actually AIMS for me and knows he's going to run me down."

MY job is not to save, help, fix or enable mentally ill people.  MY job is to take care of MYSELF.  Be responsible for my own mental health.  Create my own happiness.  Set boundaries.  Honor my feelings and needs.  And take control over the only thing I can: My OWN behavior and choices.

Focusing on yourself and allowing other adults to take care of THEMSELVES, is not selfish.  It's the healthy way to live.  A lot of people don't realize that enabling, fixing, helping, saving, covering up for, cleaning up after, apologizing for, etc another adult (no matter WHO they are) is not loving, responsible, selfless, caring behavior.  It's actually codependent and controlling behavior.

PS -- I "second" everything lucyhoneychurch said.

[clljhns]

Hi MusicCity123,

You have received some very powerful and insightful responses to your questions. I wonder how you are feeling about all of this? Is any of this making sense, or does this feel like you drew a target on your back for everyone to throw darts at? I hope you aren't feeling this way.

I am wondering if this has created a huge mental shift and divide within you at this point? I say this because in reading through your post, I noticed that you are expressing a great deal of anxiety and pressure over your sons position of you and mom divorcing.

I also wonder about your FOO. Are there any connections between familial patterns that make this situation seem familiar? Often, when we are raised in homes where chaos reigns and there are poor boundaries, we tend to gravitate to a mate who will help create the same experience. Please understand that I am not trying to place blame on your FOO, just trying connect any dots that we haven't looked at.

Looking at this from your perspective I understand how frightening this whole situation must be. I hear you when you talk about the harsh reality of divorcing your wife, and how you are concerned about how this will affect your wife. I am not advocating that you do this, I am just wondering if your frame of reference might change if you saw her as a mother and not your wife. It is a really tricky situation when looking at the dynamics of relationships between husband/wife and parent/child. These relationships are different on many levels, and yet share some of the same components. For example, all relationships, whether parent/child or husband/wife,  need to be based on trust, respect, individual self-worth, and security. The parent/child relationship is unique in that it is the foundation from which the child must grow and navigate this scary world. Parents are the safe-harbor for their children, they are the first people to empower their children to trust themselves and develop a healthy sense of self. I found this website which you might find helpful: www.empoweringparents.com/blog/effective-parenting/4-tips-for-a-healthy-parent-child-relationship/#.

I don't want to overwhelm you with too much, as I sense that you feel that you are caught between a rock and a hard place. It takes time to work through such a convoluted situation, and I am glad that you have a T to help you navigate through this, as well as the bpdfamily.

Peace and blessings!

[P.F.Change]

If I can ask a question for everyone who has posted on my response.  These people are loved ones, they are family and I know those who suffer from BPD can act cruel and mean at times.  But are they sociopaths ? 

"Sociopath" and "psychopath" are terms not clearly defined that are sometimes used to refer to people with AntiSocial Personality Disorder (ASPD). This disorder can be co-morbid with Borderline PD, but not necessarily. DIFFERENCES/COMORBIDITY: Borderline and Antisocial Personality Disorder

But does all the negative negate all the positive?

I think it depends on the person.

In many ways my mother did the best she could. She tried to be involved at our schools and make sure we had opportunities to grow and learn. She would take us to concerts and on trips. She taught us to play cards and for the most part was generous and hospitable to our friends. There were good things there. While I don't think the negative negates the positive, the reverse is also untrue: the positive does not negate the negative. Every parent is human and has strengths and weaknesses, but when a parent abuses their child it causes some very deep psychological trauma. In some cases, yes, an adult child's need for space after this kind of abuse can sometimes outweigh or even negate positive aspects of the relationship.

I believe my mother did what she could with the tools she had, and that she probably really wanted to be a good mother, however she was scary enough and mean enough the rest of the time that it took a lot of therapy for me to get over feeling terrified and furious at her. Now I feel neutral toward her and care about her as a human being, but I do not feel affection for her or miss doing things with her. Our contact is very limited. I don't think she is a bad person. I think she is a sad person.

I have two boys, both were affected by their mother.  My oldest has forgiven her and although he is not close to his mom, he can come home to visit, they can talk on the phone and he acknowledges the past and has done his best to move on. He says "I love you" to her.  Maybe its all an act and he does this to keep the peace, who knows right?  But he knows that his mother never meant to hurt him with anger. 

My other son has left and cut me off completely.  I emailed him yesterday saying I understand how he feels.  I told him that I would rather have a happy son without me in his life than a miserable son with me in his life. I know what he really wants is me in his life with me being divorced.  But I have to do what I feel is best for me right now.  Anyway I have rambled on too much.  I would like to know what everyone thinks about what I have posted.  I really do want whats best for my family.

Your two sons are two different people with different personalities--including different strengths and weaknesses--and even though they grew up in the same house may have had very different relationships with their mother. Many people with BPD split their children so that one is "all good" and one is "all bad." This can lead to very different psychological outcomes for the children. It is great that your older son has been able to find a place where he feels at peace with his relationship with his mother. However just because he has done this doesn't mean your younger son is wrong for not being in the same place or having different needs.

I think what you wrote to him about wanting him to be happy even if that means you are not a part of his life is a very loving thing to say. You mention that he wants you to divorce his mother in order to have contact with you--has he explicitly said this, or are you inferring? Either way, he is an adult with a right to make decisions about his relationships; so are you.

Perhaps he does not understand that validation is not the same thing as total agreement. Maybe he wants you to see his mother exactly the same way he does so that he can feel there is someone on his "team," or that your getting divorced would somehow make life easier for him. I used to wish my parents would get divorced, too. Now that I am older I can see that it might not have made things any better for me--maybe mother would have gotten full custody which would mean even more time alone with her; maybe they would have re-married people who were even more abusive; who can say what might have come of it? Reality is, they did not divorce, and they are unlikely to do so in the future. I had to learn to accept this reality.

I think it is possible for you to validate his experience and feelings while choosing your own path. This workshop might help:Validation--Tips and Traps for Parents It is also possible to have a relationship with your son apart from your wife, if you both agree to that. Right now I am able to speak to my father on the phone and talk about things that aren't that deep. I used to want him to hear me and agree with me, and now I understand that with him that isn't possible. If your son has the space he needs, he may eventually be able to come to a place of acceptance where there can be some limited connection between you, though a lot of that depends on what he is willing to do.

Have you ever considered talking with a therapist on your own about any of this, MusicCity123? It can help a great deal.

[AsianSon]

Just to clarify, because it sounds like I may have come across in a manner I did not intend... .

So does sociopath include a person who, when made aware of their hurtful behaviors, is so weak as to justify or rationalize away the behaviors?  The answer could be "yes" because if they know, and give into their weakness, then it might be deliberate to some people. 

But then again, the answer could be "no" because the weakness might be part of the BPD that they have no control over.  I think you and G.J. might see it this way.

My straight-up answer is:  I don't think any of us can truly speak to anyone else's "intent" regarding anything.  Additionally, I believe we are also incapable of accurately knowing whether or not someone else DOES have the strength to get help, but is using weakness as an excuse -- or if they are TRULY that weak and cannot do what it takes to face themselves and make changes.

I personally CHOOSE to believe that "if they knew better, they'd do better."  Whether or not that's accurate, I have no idea.  But it helps me attain a level of forgiveness (which is for MY benefit, not theirs) and let go of my bitterness and resentment.

THIS statement, I 100% agree with, and think is really the only important issue at hand:

Personally, my answer is "it doesn't matter."  Regardless of the label (whether sociopath, victim of the past, personality disorder, etc), BPD behaviors still cause pain and hurt to others.

Hi G.J.,

I apologize for misunderstanding your views.  I'm glad to learn that you and I share the idea that "it doesn't matter." 

And regarding "intent," I have found that it raises some interesting questions.  For example, a person can make a very offensive remark with intent, which makes it hard for the recipient of the remark to let it pass.  On the other hand, the person may have made the very offensive remark with complete ignorance of how it would be received.  The recipient may find it far less hurtful in this case. 

I often use an "ignorance" test to help guide my response in some situations. 

And now that I think about it, I suppose it is possible to view pwBPD as being "ignorant" of their own behavior.  Personally, this seems to lead me into a kind of compassion or "radical acceptance" frame of mind:  if the pwBPD is ignorant, the behaviors seem less hurtful (or at least easier to accept).  So my work to stop or limit the negative effects is a little easier.   

[AsianSon]

Thank you P.F.Change.  Your post is very eloquent and meaningful to me. 

The link to Validation is also greatly appreciated!

Have a good day and weekend!

[Louise7777]

I forgot to answer about the "But does all the negative negate all the positive? "

No, it doesnt. But let´s assume the question is regarding a husband and wife r/s. If the husband punches the wife and then apologizes and gives her flowers, does that make it better? To me, clearly not.

I guess we live in cultures where "the mother" is a huge title and its sanctified.

Long time ago I was listening a radio show where a pshycologist answers questions live, with audience. A guy asked what he was doing wrong towards his mom, cause the more he pleased her, the worst she behaved. While she adored his sister (her daughter). He kept justifying and explaining himself, saying all he does for her. The pshycologist said something Ill never forget, was a breakthrough moment for me, something like "you wouldnt accept that behaviour from a friend. Why do you take it from your mother? Thats unacceptable behaviour and shouldnt be rewarded with aditional love on top of more abuse".

What Im saying is that we unadvertdly enable bad behaviour, we justify their abuse: shes your mother, she did this for you, he´s your grandpa, he´s older and frail, etc... . But the reality is, there´s no justification for abusing another person.

[MusicCity123]

I have read all the posts above and will have to re-read them a bunch of times to gain insight from all these different posts.  I thank all of you for posting.  You folks are the only ones I am sharing this stuff with and I appreciate it greatly.  The thing that is forefront in my life right now is the relationship with my son.  I have had many dreams over the past month since our relationship was severed.  Last night I had a dream that I was walking with a work friend through a store. I turned a corner and there was my son.  We looked at each other and he took one step backward. I wanted to hug him.  (I have always hugged both my boys since they were babies. Even in public when they were adults and they always hugged back)   He said I cant hug you.  He seemed large and I seemed very small in this weird dream.  IT kind of reminded me of that song "Someone that I used to know" by the singer Gotye.  That song has always scared the heck out of me.  I woke up at around 4 am and laid in bed thinking about the past and how much I wish I could have changed things. I guess I was too tired to force my mind to think other thoughts.  I feel two things basically. The stronger feeing is one of compassion for my son.  I really love the guy.  I hate it that he is hurting.  I hate it when my kids are hurting.  The second thought is guilt.  I feel guilty about not doing the right thing back when my kids were younger.   I tried to step in and defend them,. and when their mother was not around we did talk about things, but if that was good enough then , what I am going through today would not have happened right. I replay old scenarios over and over again and I imagine what I should have done differently.  That doesn't help things.  Anyway Take care all.  I promise to read carefully every post.  I really want to do the best thing for everyone.  even me.

[clljhns]

Hi MusicCity123,

Glad to hear from you again! Interesting dream. Karl Jung has a wonderful book about dreams. Dreams are a way for the mind to make sense of our daily lives and situations. We file things away and "dump" information we don't need.

I think that it is wonderful that you are taking the time to assess the situation from the perspective of your role in it. This is a very brave and courageous step! It can be difficult to see our part in our children's pain, and many will never take ownership of this because of how uncomfortable it makes them feel emotionally.

You folks are the only ones I am sharing this stuff with and I appreciate it greatly.

I was wondering about this statement. Are you seeing a therapist? I thought that I read that in one of your previous posts, I could be wrong. Do you have any close family or friends that you can share this with? If you do have close friends or family and are not sharing this, I am curious as to why? Not that I am insinuating that you should not share here. I am just wondering what is keeping you from reaching out to your support group close to you?

Last night I had a dream that I was walking with a work friend through a store. I turned a corner and there was my son.  We looked at each other and he took one step backward. I wanted to hug him.

I know how painful this must be, I am sorry this is happening between you and your son.

What about mom? Does she express any grief over the loss of contact with son?

Keep us updated.