I desperately need help

[zenwexler]

Ok, So I won’t go into all of the basic details because at this point its all pretty generic. She has BPD. Untreated. We dated for roughly 8 months. We broke up last July. It has been a brutal breakup. At first I was relieved. To be finally free. I told her we couldn’t be friends. She said ok but I could tell she wasn’t really acknowledging it. She texted me a few days later and was like “uggghhhhh, I hate this, I want you in my life” So of course I crumbled and we maintained at texting relationship. I’m in Philly, she moved to New York for ballet. Once she got there everything changed. She always tried to present to me how amazing and happy she was. Which were all lies. She was miserable. She got injured and needed very serious surgery but completely kept that hidden from me.

We did this song and dance where I would say unless you want to get back together I don’t want to be friends. She would say ok, then casually text me a week later. I would ignore her then she would either call me names or come up with some crazy emergency, mind you these were “real” but she methodically saved them. The first month I tried to pull away she said she cut herself, I of course tried to help her and she was like “eh, it’s no big deal. I only did it once, by the way have you hooked up with anyone?” I was furious and blown away.  A couple days later said the same thing, cant’ be friends, then a couple weeks later same casual text, then emergency text, “thanks for wishing me good luck on my very dangerous surgery” the surgery wasn’t happening for another two months! I had no knowledge she was even injured. Then went through it again, said we can’t be friends. Same thing went down, she said “oh my god, I was in a car accident!” I then found out that the car accident was real, but small, and she told me two days after it already happened. During all this time she kept asking me if I hooked up with anyone.

She lives in North Carolina, she went home for the surgery for a couple of months. She actually ended up getting back together with her ex.  She hinted to me that they were together saying how she has to make money to pay for all her flights to go back home. I distanced myself because obviously I was hurt. I bought her a Christmas present and she made the joke, hey you should pay for my flight home, pretty much saying pay for me to see my bf. Then a month later after NC because she thought I was out of the country. She called me. We talked caught up. She was really sweet, then she went on to tell me about how all these guys are into her. How she got back with her ex, but then it didn’t work out because she was moving back to NYC but she’s already seeing this great guy in new York. She then asked if I wanted to meet him! That blew me away.

I texted her a few days later saying if you’re seeing someone then I don’t think it’s appropriate we talk. She texted me a hundred times and called me 15 times in three days. We finally talked. I told her that if you ever see us getting back together then we can remain friends. She said she NEVER sees us getting back together. I said then why do you not let me go? Why do you fight so much to keep me in your life. She told me she got over me really quickly, which is obviously a lie and never sees us getting back together, that it’s just friendly. She also said that she barely loved me, that she was still in love with her ex from North Carolina while we dated. They only dated for two months in the summer before I met her. She told me they were madly in love yet he broke up with her. This obviously really hurt. She told me she loved me 2 months into our relationship! Then a month later she broke up with me, then we got back together.  So I said ok, then we can’t be friends. Of course I wished her the best and distanced myself once again. She then texted me a few weeks later saying hey just checking in on you, I ignored it.

Then a couple weeks later she called me, I didn’t answer. I then texted her. I felt strong. Within the third text she asked to hangout. I skipped over the question just kept it casual. We’ve been texting back and forth now for the last week or so, she’s asked to hang out multiple times. The one night she texted me saying that she could live without going out to bars and stuff. She’s only been in that scene for 2 months and is already over it! Something she was obsessing over before she got there.  I was like oh no, you’re not having fun? She quickly back tracked and was like no no I am, it’s more the people I’m with. Just a weird statement to make. I think she was a little tipsy and revealed a little too much of her unhappiness to me and tried to cover it up. While we text she always calls me by full first name. She knows that only girls who love me and close family members who love me call me that. Which is true. So when she calls me that she knows what she’s doing because I told her when we were dating that its comforting to hear my full name. That I know I’m in the presence of someone who cares about me a lot.

She then came out and wanted to tell me that she wanted to “make sure” I was completely over her. I said she had nothing to worry about, she kept asking me if I was. She said she didn’t want to send mixed signals and asked me that if I had feelings for her would I let her know.  I finally said yes I’m over her. Which obviously I’m not. She then was like good good, so I guess I should tell you I have a bf.  And I kept cool and was like yeah I figured. She was surprised that I knew and was casual. Of course she asked me again to meet him, which makes no sense at all. I lied and said yeah, maybe we can do a double date or something!

This whole experience has been so disheartening. She truly only makes an effort when I pull away. I don’t know what she wants from me. I know she still has feelings for me, I mean, if she was in a happy and healthy relationship with this new guy, then there is no way I would be hearing from her, there is no way she or he would want to meet me! Just none of it makes sense. Every time I pull away she doesn’t even last a month before contacting me. These reasons are why I’m on the fence because I went to counseling. My therapist’s main goal is trying to get me to recognize that this girl is literally incapable of having a happy and healthy loving relationship and that she is a major manipulator. Which I can’t deny, even when we dated she made me put in all the work to maintain the relationship. She is very much a spoiled princess. With a very intense career path, ballet. She’s young, she’s only 20. I’m 25. She was extremely needy, she would get stomachaches frequently and would make me pinky swear that she wouldn’t throw up. She also makes her mom pinky swear that her mother won’t die, every time when she talks on the phone to her, which is everyday like 3 times a day. 

All her exes have left her. It seems like everyone eventually leaves her. Of course she acts like everything is amazing with this new guy but again, if everything was amazing I wouldn’t be renting any space in her head. I think oh man, maybe shes happy and not crazy with him, but I know that can’t be true. She’s probably just as abusive and manipulative to him as she was to me. Lets face it, if she did change then A. she wouldn’t be texting me, and B. She would probably be a lot nicer and sweeter to me rather then, “look how much fun I’m having. Everyone loves me!”  I can’t help but feel that if I wait it out and be a good friend to her. She’ll see that I really am one of the few guys that are willing to put up with her chaos. That I’m willing to stand by her, help her, work with her. When we first dated she told me that she’s crazy, and that I will want to breakup with her. It’s funny because that was the truest statement she ever said to me, but I want to stand by her. I know we can be happy together. I know there is a good girl deep down inside. I just go back and forth from saying ok, let me do this and wait it out or she’s a lost cause, she is incapable of being in a healthy relationship with anyone and was extremely abusive towards me, narcissistic, self centered, highly emotional and that she needs to mature and seek counseling.

I just wanted to add that before we broke up for good she wrote me this letter saying how much I mean to her and how amazing of a guy I am to stand by her, and that I always am the one to make things right when we fight. She also said that she thinks it's amazing that I would drive an hour and a half twice a week to see her. She would rarely drive to my place. She then went on to say though that I need to be sweeter and nicer, which is insane because her letter pretty much said how amazing I am! She's the one that needed to be nicer and sweeter to me!

She abused me so much, blaming me for every problem. I was never good enough. I used to beg her to just be nice to me. I told her that if she would just be sweet and kind to me, have sex with me (jokingly)  I would literally do anything for her. I don't ask for much.

Any insight or help would be greatly appreciated. I truly am torn. It’s like nothing I ever do is right by this girl.

[In_n_Out]

Some quick advice:

1. So much easier said than done, but if you can get a clean break and go No Contact (NC) by blocking her phone, texting, email, facebook and every other possible way of having her contact you, that would be best.  You're young and there's so much more out there than to be a full time babysitter to a pwBPD's emotions; because that is what you are or will become should you stick around.

That said, if you must, then keep these in mind:

1. Take everything that they say when it comes to you with a grain of salt.  She will project her shame/fear/anger/sadness upon you to mask her emotions.  It's her actions that will tell the true story.  She will trick you with the words, watch her actions. (Wasn't this the same advice that the wise Father told the young apprentice Father in the Exorcist to watch for when conducting the exorcism in the movie "The Exorcist"?... . hmmmm).

2. Attachments (you and others) are very much child-parent like.  It is hard for her to break those attachments because it is like asking her to leave a parent.  That is why when you push away, she tries to pull you back in.  When you try to get close, she will feel engulfed and smothered and then push you away.  You will be in an ever cycle of push-pull with her.

3. Learn to enjoy the "silent treatment" that you will get from her.  When she feels so shamed about herself, she will tell you how much *you* hurt her and she will then go cold turkey on you.  The more you plead, the more she ignores you.  When she does, take the time to focus on yourself and get your stuff squared away.  Connect with friends and keep active and healthy.  She will see that and then eventually (maybe) come back around.

4. If you just want some "normalcy" in the relationship, you wont get it. The highs will be unbelievable but the lows will be miserable and lonely.  When in a low, you wont be able to sleep because you'll lay in bed all night trying to analyze her to figure out what the hell she's thinking... . or doing... . and with whom.  Your days will be filled with moments of being ok to suddenly you are hit with a deep depression and you will suffer withdrawals (such as now).  Once things have soured in the relationship, the highs will be less frequent and the lows will become more frequent; especially if they feel that you are beginning to see through their mask.

5. Arm yourself with knowledge. Take advantage of materials here and read books about BPD.  The one book that really helped me (did I say "help?" was "Loving someone with BPD".  At least you'll get an idea of "why" but you wont understand and you won't be able to make them understand.  You will get frustrated because when things are happy and going good, she will do *something* to derail it because she will feel shame for being in such a happy place... . she will feel that she doesn't deserve that happiness and she will attempt to derail it.  You will have to learn how to help regulate her emotions to bring her out of dysregulation and as close to her "baseline" as possible.  Keeping in mind, her "baseline" is a nons state of mild agitation at best.  

There's probably more that others can chime in with.  The short answer is, run - don't walk if you can make yourself do that and if for some reason you just can't, then know that it will take a lot of work, effort, emotion, frustration and boundary setting/enforcement just to get through a day or two with her.

Good luck!

[zenwexler]

Thank you so much for your in depth response. A part of me wants to run but I still do truly feel like she still cares. You say watch her actions not her words. Her words say I don't want to be with you but her actions say please stay in my life. So the fact that I believe she still has feelings for me is what keeps me around. But it hurts because she is dating someone else. She tries to flaunt it to me. The other day she said sorry for the delayed response. I was eating dinner then had a loong phone call. Insinuating she was talking to her new bf. I mean when she does things like that it just screams to me that she's not over me. I mean if she was in a happy and healthy relationship I would not be hearing from her!

[diega]

Thank you so much for your in depth response. A part of me wants to run but I still do truly feel like she still cares. You say watch her actions not her words. Her words say I don't want to be with you but her actions say please stay in my life. So the fact that I believe she still has feelings for me is what keeps me around. But it hurts because she is dating someone else. She tries to flaunt it to me. The other day she said sorry for the delayed response. I was eating dinner then had a loong phone call. Insinuating she was talking to her new bf. I mean when she does things like that it just screams to me that she's not over me. I mean if she was in a happy and healthy relationship I would not be hearing from her!

well, if u want to know what's most likely in it for you if u ended up with this person go read the posts for the people that have stayed  and are trying to cope. it's very difficult and does not sound fun at all. in no out is right--if u could no contact would be best. i would run if i were you! easier said for me cuae i'm done with the BPD exbf.    the question I might be asking isn't why is she doing this... or does she still like  you etc etc...   but what is it in you that makes you want to stick around for someone who already is involved. with someone else.?

Whether she is happy or not, the red flags are screaming that she is not a happy or healthy type of person. 

[zenwexler]

Because I think we could potentially have an amazing relationship together. Especially now that I know she has Bpd. And every time I go nc she hunts me down. We both wont let each other go. And I guess I disregard her relationship because again I know she has to still care. I mean no one fights that hard to keep a "friend" in their life.

[zenwexler]

Thank you for replying. It means a lot.

[diega]

Because I think we could potentially have an amazing relationship together. Especially now that I know she has Bpd. And every time I go nc she hunts me down. We both wont let each other go. And I guess I disregard her relationship because again I know she has to still care. I mean no one fights that hard to keep a "friend" in their life.

no offense to you, but just cause she 'hunts you down' after NC does not mean she 'cares.'  its part of the BPD.

my mom does not care at all. she is cruel and almost inhumane but yet when i  was gone she tried to get me back. it wasn't cause she cared.  i'm just saying that this pattern of 'charming'  (which is the term used on these boards when the BPD tries to get you back after nc or little contact)... that does not mean caring from the BPD.  one could argue taht she may care still or ahtver... thats fine... but all i'm saying is that the charming thing does not mean caring.   have you read the other posts on the other boards?    anyway. good luck.

[woodsposse]

I'll make my reply even simpler.

what do you want?

do you want to be on the roller coaster or not?

she has shown you exactly who and what she is. Either you want to be in it or not.

it is that simple.

best of luck in whichever way you go... . but always remember, your happiness starts and ends with you.

[zenwexler]

Honestly. I know if I stay I'm in for a roller coaster ride. Even when I have simple day dreams about us doing fun stuff my still includes me saying things like what's wrong ok. I'm sorry. Sure. We can do whatever you want. So it's already ingrained in me. But I want another chance with her. I want to put the lessons I learned into action. I mean we've been broken up all this time and I have dived into these blogs and forums. I have even read books. I'm trying so hard to do everything I can. Just nothing seems to work with her. She just always has me running in circles with my head cut off. I just want one more chance to see if things would be different. And in the end if BPD is really bad as it seems to be. Then most likely her relationship will fail with this guy. Just like her past ones. And better believe they don't care enough to sign up for this blog. To read books on BPD. To do anything they can.

[woodsposse]

So you say you know if you go back it will be a roller coaster... . but you want to see if this time it would be different?

how does that work?

[zenwexler]

Well I guess my hope is that with my understanding of BPD the roller coaster ride won't be as bad

[In_n_Out]

If you want a journal of what the roller coaster ride would most likely be like with the triangulation and your new knowledge, read my threads entitled "R/S advice, BPD style". 

[woodsposse]

Well I guess my hope is that with my understanding of BPD the roller coaster ride won't be as bad

I'm not trying to be flippant or rude - but you already know what the ride is like. 

My question to you is - know that you have an understanding of what BPD is from the boards... . but you already know what your S/O is like in her disorder... . why do you think going back to it will be any different?

[zenwexler]

I don't think you're being rude at all. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. And I think things may be different because I'll be better equipped. I'll be able to manage my emotions better and not get so bitter and resentful of her behavior because I know she doesn't mean to. I also think that we both were in such stressful situations when we dated and that now we both may be in better places.

[woodsposse]

Just because a person has a disorder, doesn't give them a right to treat you however they want.

Just because you may feel you are better equipped with information regarding the disorder... . why do you have to handle your emotions when someone... .

Look at it like this.

I know that some people in our society have had it rough.  They may be out of work.  They may be on drugs.  They may be desparate.  Okay.  That explains their situation.  But does that give them the right to come at you with a weapon, rob you - beat you up - take out their frustrations on you?

And just because you know that they may be acting on things that may be beyond their control... . you mean to tell me that if one of these drug fueled idiots came at you with a gun to get your money to go buy drugs it would be okay with you simply because you can "understand" where they are at?

Come on... . really?

[zenwexler]

I mean you're absolutely right. I just empathize with her. I feel bad. I put up with a ton of abuse from her. Now doubt about that. But I don't know. I want her in my life and I know she wants me in hers. This has been a brutal situation. I don't take this lightly at all. It sucks. Not only is the girl that I care about most hijacked by BPD but she's also in a relationship. It's a double edged sword.

[woodsposse]

My friend,  I can't - nor would I suggest doing one thing or the other.  I'm just trying to point out the obviousness in what you are saying.

You say she wants you - but she is with someone else.

You say you want to be with her - but she abuses you.

You empathize with her - but she abuses you.

Make no mistake - she isn't hijacked by BPD.  It's not like she was "normal" and got bit by a radioactive spider and became BPDWoman.  This is who she is.  She has shown you who she is. Unless she gets serious long term therapy... . this is who she is.

So your choice is clear.

Be with someone who abuses you - or don't.  There is not middle ground.  You can't "talk" them out of anything... . you can't even 'love' them out of anything.  That's like you trying to talk me out of being tall.

I'm tall.  I was born tall.  I'll always be tall. 

Now... . if you were in a r/s with someone who had a diagnosis and wanted tools to try and make the r/s work... . there is an app for that (well, a link, anyway).

But that is something totally and completely different than what I'm discussing.

Please re-read what you are writing and see if you find your own set of comments which are diametrically opposed to one another.

remember... . you are in control of your life and your life only.  If you want good in it (which mostly all of us do)  then that is up to you.  Your happiness starts and ends with you.

[zenwexler]

I know you're right. Trust me. I do. I'm just hopeful that things could be different. And that in time we could even go to counseling together. I mean she has bf yet she texts me all the time. So how nice can she really be? I get it. I do. And that's a good comparison about being tall. But you really don't think things could be different at all? Even after all her bfs leave her? You don't think she will realize that I'm the only one that stands by her besides her immediate family?

[diega]

I know you're right. Trust me. I do. I'm just hopeful that things could be different. And that in time we could even go to counseling together. I mean she has bf yet she texts me all the time. So how nice can she really be? I get it. I do. And that's a good comparison about being tall. But you really don't think things could be different at all? Even after all her bfs leave her? You don't think she will realize that I'm the only one that stands by her besides her immediate family?

[/quote

i meant 'charming' in my other reply not '[charming"  . what was i thinking when i wrote that?

yes... . i was going to write things ssimilar to woodsposse but i feel you already have your mind made  up. so live and learn.  it doesn't make sense to us who have been there and the signs seems so obvious... . but i guess without expeiencing the utter total hell BPD can be... . i guess you want to try it out anyway.  i feel no amount of logic or anythng anyone says will sway you.  and it's your journey of course. 

[woodsposse]

But you really don't think things could be different? Even after all her bfs leave her? You don't think she will realize that I'm the only one that stands by her besides her immediate family?

Nope.

[zenwexler]

I just feel like i can't win with her. She says she wants to be friends but she's not very nice. She asked if I was seeing someone and wanted to know all the details. She then wanted to tell me about her new bf and was like or is it a sensitive subject. And to be honest, she wasn't being nice. She just wants to see how I react. She told me that he's super chill and is exactly what she needs. He balances out her nerves. I mean can that be true? Is she actually sweet and nice to him or she just as mean and demanding as she is to him? Because as soon as she said that she ended the text by saying so will you add me on facebook? Which she has asked me to do a hundred times since unfriending her. She's so relentless. If this guy is so amazing why is she texting me?

[woodsposse]

I just feel like i can't win with her. She says she wants to be friends but she's not very nice. She asked if I was seeing someone and wanted to know all the details. She then wanted to tell me about her new bf and was like or is it a sensitive subject. And to be honest, she wasn't being nice. She just wants to see how I react. She told me that he's super chill and is exactly what she needs. He balances out her nerves. I mean can that be true? Is she actually sweet and nice to him or she just as mean and demanding as she is to him? Because as soon as she said that she ended the text by saying so will you add me on facebook? Which she has asked me to do a hundred times since unfriending her. She's so relentless. If this guy is so amazing why is she texting me?

May I be frank?

Why are you so concerned?

She isn't nice to you.  She abused you.  You don't want to friend her - or befriend her.  She is insensitive with her boundary busting.  And, even broken up, is making you self doubt.

What exactly is the dilemma?  It's like you are looking for validation as to why you should jump back on the crazytrain and drive it straight into crazy town.

I can't speak for anyone else... . nor would I suggest you go one way or the other (stay vs leave) - but... . really... . even in your posts you are oscillating back and forth and back again and I can't participate in validating your intentions (one way or the other) if you don't know what they are.

So... . I ask again - what do you want to do?

Your happiness starts and ends with you.  We are all here for you.  Can you be here for you? 

[zenwexler]

You're right. Everything you say is on point. What I truly truly want is a another chance with this girl. Perfect scenario would be that I do what is necessary to move on but also in doing so strengthening my relationship with her. I want to move on, but the thought of just waving good bye and never talking to her again makes me extremely sad. I can't help but feel that we both want each other in our lives. Even if she does abuse me and treat me poorly. This has been an extremely difficult journey. I can't help but laugh sometimes after I wipe away the tears. I mean, I've been on the internet from the moment it has existed back with AOL 3.0. NEVER have I ever signed up on a forum or blog or anything. In fact, whenever I read blogs or comments on other sites I always think to myself, who actually signs up an account and takes the time to write stuff. And here I am. Grateful that a site like this even exists filled with people that actually care enough to help.

[woodsposse]

Healthy people do not accept abuse.

[Finding_Ground]

I agree with Woods

[zenwexler]

it's funny, a part of me is actually scared to be her friend because with the off chance that she manages to be nice and a good friend it would only make me sadder that we're not together. It's almost like every time she abuses me it's more reassurance that she does have serous issues

[changingme]

I'm just hopeful that things could be different. And that in time we could even go to counseling together. I mean she has bf yet she texts me all the time.

Hi again Zenwexler,

Before I knew about BPD I used to be think this same way all the time; being very hopeful that if I could just get him to see things differently, get him to therapy, get us to therapy together, etc.  Then, like I have mentioned to you, I finally learned about BPD years later.  And GUESS WHAT I DID? I remained hopeful, if I could just get him to see BPD, get him to therapy, get us to therapy together., etc.  And it wasn't the countless recycles or the things he may have done that hurt me the most, is that I believed in a hope more than I loved my own life and sanity.  As time went on I started asking different questions.  Even if I was able to pull him back from his gf... . did I really want to turn those tables, becomes his current girlfriend while he texts his ex all the time?  I had so much hope in my vision that I hadn't even realized that I eventually became "the other woman" 

[zenwexler]

So there is just truly no hope? We can't be friends? I'll never be able to "get her back" She'll always just take and never give? She'll always be up and down nice and mean? It's not me she does it with everyone? I mean these pills are just so hard to swallow.

[changingme]

Nope... . nope... . nope... . yes... . yes... . yes... . and yes it is very hard to accept and I'm sorry you are in this situation that you would need to accept such an unjust thing in your life.

[zenwexler]

Lets just say I do want to detach from her.  Although I admit I lack the strength at the moment do I just stop? I just go NC? I mean we've just spent the last two weeks catching up and rebuilding our lines of communication. We have been through this cycle like 5 times already. She's going to start to think I'm the crazy one!