I desperately need help

[Love Is Not Enough]

Why I submit myself to being abused even just as a friend

Exactly.

Why?

Think about how much better your life would be if you put as much thought into yourself as you do into her.

[woodsposse]

I do agree with a lot of what you say. I do one hundred percent need to man up and move on. I do disagree though about you saying she doesn't care. In the sense of. Regular person yes, caring is shown MUCH differently. But she can't let me go either. Just last night she was texting me at midnight asking how serious I am with this girl I know. I know she still cares. I'm not saying she's ready to jump into a relationship with me but I know she's still cares. But regardless even when she cares vs doesn't she's still the same person. She's still the manipulative condescending narcissistic person. She's contansy devaluing me. Constantly trying to paint me black. And when I just roll with it and not try to explain how I'm not black, it disarms her for a second then she gets right back to it. You say I don't have anger. But man I get into an angry sadness a lot. I'm furious at this girl. I go back and forth between wanting to kiss her and push her. She's not a nice person. She sucks at life. She's beneath me. Yet I chase her. That's my own personal demon. Why I submit myself to being abused even just as a friend 

Please please please understand this.  Everything you describes is how a person who doesn't care about you treats you.  You have to get to a point where you understand this.

[goldylamont]

I do agree with a lot of what you say. I do one hundred percent need to man up and move on. I do disagree though about you saying she doesn't care. In the sense of. Regular person yes, caring is shown MUCH differently. But she can't let me go either. Just last night she was texting me at midnight asking how serious I am with this girl I know. I know she still cares. I'm not saying she's ready to jump into a relationship with me but I know she's still cares. But regardless even when she cares vs doesn't she's still the same person. She's still the manipulative condescending narcissistic person. She's contansy devaluing me. Constantly trying to paint me black. And when I just roll with it and not try to explain how I'm not black, it disarms her for a second then she gets right back to it. You say I don't have anger. But man I get into an angry sadness a lot. I'm furious at this girl. I go back and forth between wanting to kiss her and push her. She's not a nice person. She sucks at life. She's beneath me. Yet I chase her. That's my own personal demon. Why I submit myself to being abused even just as a friend 

she's texting you at midnight because she's hoping to mess things up with you and this girl because midnight would be the time that you two might have been together. i don't mean to sound cold, only to draw contrast to what you are calling "caring". think of people in your life that love and care for you--your family and friends. i'm sure you can see a big difference in the way they care for you and the way she 'cares'. her jealousy over this other girl could be completely fabricated. or she could just be doing the old extinction burst because she wants to keep you in (a long) line for her benefit (not yours).

i ended a healthy r/s with an ex about 9 months ago--i still care deeply for her. it does get to me some if i think about her seeing other guys--but, see, i CARE about her so i'm not going to hold her back. she deserves happiness, because she's a beautiful person. as long as whoever she is with is respectful and brings her joy then i'm happy and ok and i'll deal with my own issues if i have any because i truly care for and respect her. your ex is not looking out for your best interests. not only has she disregarded your feelings and needs, but she is actively provoking you (spelled 'emotional abuse' for whatever reasons she may have. this is *not* care. sure she obviously still is connected to you, she may be concerned about your whereabouts but the reason she's doing what she's doing has nothing to do with caring for you, and everything to do with her disorder.

over time we all learn to depersonalize this stuff. it's a painful realization seeing that your ex doesn't truly care for you. however you can also depersonalize most of the traumatic and painful things she says as this has nothing to do with you either--again, it's the disorder.

my xBPDgf contacted me many months after we went full NC. and it was a short and cordial conversation--but i knew the game already zenwexler, i knew she did not and could never truly care about me. so i didn't bite and ignored further contact. and thank god i did she went on to plow through several other men in no time so disaster averted. it would have delayed my healing to interpret her silliness as caring.

i'm wishing you well, i know this is terribly hard. hang in there ok?

[zenwexler]

I love when you guys don't let me get away and hit me with the straight hard truths. I ar ignore the fact that she is incapable of caring about not just me but anyone truly. I guess what's she's doing now is as close as she'll ever get. Which is clearly not even close to what I want in life. And you're right. It does make it easier knowing that it's not me. It's her disorder. That when she devalues me I can't take it personally. That it truly has nothing to do with me. What I need to start doing is truly accepting that she's incapable of love. That there is no hope. I feel like until I can truly accept that then I'll be able to fully move on.

[goldylamont]

I love when you guys don't let me get away and hit me with the straight hard truths. I ar ignore the fact that she is incapable of caring about not just me but anyone truly. I guess what's she's doing now is as close as she'll ever get. Which is clearly not even close to what I want in life. And you're right. It does make it easier knowing that it's not me. It's her disorder. That when she devalues me I can't take it personally. That it truly has nothing to do with me. What I need to start doing is truly accepting that she's incapable of love. That there is no hope. I feel like until I can truly accept that then I'll be able to fully move on.

^^ very well put zenwexler. understand that you are already moving on--you're just in the early stages of it. but i'm sure you're ahead of where you were at say 6 months ago. you are talking here, you are in therapy, you are having the realizations that you outlined above. it takes courage to do this. a lot more than from a normal breakup. remember that this new awareness represents your strength. so congratulate yourself on this.  you will slip up and fall back many times, so just realize that this is also normal. and every time you come to a realization like the one above allow it to settle and bask in it for a while. i consider myself 'strong' and relatively mentally healthy--but i'm 2 years out and 1 year NC and there's still some processing left for me to do which is why i'm still here  . so you have to look at the loong game with this. i wouldn't worry so much about completely moving on--i think it better to think of moving through with as much love, respect, dignity and kick-assness that you can muster. and when you just can't do this, then stop and grieve for a bit. but you *will* move through.

you are learning early and have time on your side. when you do meet mrs. right you are going to be a seasoned person of character who truly understands how valuable her love truly is. long game. best to you z

[Runningbare]

I'l give you a little idea about depth of care for a BPD.

They have no care for themselves, it has to come from everyone else.

I have spent countless hours with mines mother at hospitals, comforting her, fetching things, generally caring.

When my father died, I got a text of the news, as I was reading it, she went off in jealousy because someone had text, and that I was reading it. After multiple attempts to tell her what it was, I just gave up and sat with my own thoughts, it was a couple of hours before the ranting and then silent treatment subsided and I related the news. She huffed, well I didnt know, and stormed of again.

Two days later I went to the races as he and my grandfather were avid and successful punters. It was a reasonably good day and I had drunk most of the day, we were on a courtesy bus to get home and she had been texting throughout the afternoon. She wanted to get off at a pub near home on the way back so of course thats what we did. I was sitting talking to a couple of people she knew, and a guy with a tear in his eye and odd demeaner sat down and started questioning who I was, out of the corner of my eye I noticed her behind me, I turned to see her with the flaunting dirty girl face on. He was the new sex partner she had been texting all afternoon. I turned to him and just smiled knowingly, he just shrunk off and disappeared. When we got to her place I didnt have my car there and had been drinking all day anyway, thinking I was trapped she launched into a tyrade of abuse about me feeling sorry for myself, I looked at her walked out and jumped the fence out of her yard, walked 10km to the highway and hitchhiked the 40 min drive home at about 3 in the morning.

A week later I went to the funeral and stayed with a mate for the night as it was a 3 hour drive away, she had text all day during and after the funeral and all night, saying how she couldnt wait for me to get home, I arrived home the next day and she had disappeared from contact, 3 days later she turned up. she had been with the guy from the pub until he upset her and she blew up from... . as she put it... . not screwing her as well as I do.

Understand, thats how they care.

[Runningbare]

Dont feel bad about her sucking you in or embarrassed about what behavior you have endured, we have all been there to some extent, believe it or not, there is much worse behavior of hers, that I would struggle to admit to enduring. And yet somehow she can beg soo convincingly for the chance to do it again.

I dont understand what the evil magic is they wield, just know it works, otherwise this site wouldnt be here. 

[AimingforMastery]

Thank you to all of you for this discussion.

If it helps the O/P at all - I am a newbie with an ex(?) GF (aged 30) who has BPD.

I set a boundary 6 months ago that unless she did EMDR therapy I wanted nothing to do with her. She has done it now for many months and is genuinely committed to it, but also admits to feelings of wanting to quit it. There are signs of positive change now but it is slow work and there are still enough crazy behaviours to make anyone go gray... . (She just left for a third time... . who knows who to, who knows to do what... etc etc.)

My point is even with EMDR and genuine commitment, healing takes a great deal of time and there is no guarantee.

So to the O/P, I would never tell you what to do, but without consistent, long term commitment by her to a type of therapy that works, in my humble opinion you have zero shot at happiness with her.

In my situation, I am also aware that it likely gets worse... . before it (IF it) gets better.

Try EMDR yourself to see why you are attracted to someone who abuses you.

Very best to you and all - and thanks, this site is awesome.

[zenwexler]

I'm one week no contact and I feel like screaming! Especially because I'm surprised she hasn't tried to contact me. My only thought is that she knows I'm out in San Diego and all her efforts of trying to bring me down have failed. Still hurts either way

[woodsposse]

 

Your pain is understandable and normal.  Give it some time and cut yourself a little slack.

remember, the pain you are feeling right now is only within you.  Meaning, it is not being brought on by an outside force - so therefore, you can manage it with continued focus on the only person who matters... . and that is you.

You got this.  I promise.   

[Fanie]

Get out now

Find a new life

You will never regret it

[Fanie]

Mort Fertell

         Calls it "Emotional Rape"

Wow - I can feel it sometimes deep inside . . . . .

Goodluck Buddy . . . . .

[zenwexler]

So when we first broke up I got her a plant. She just moved and so I thought it would be nice. Well that was last July. And I'm trying to go no contact and suprise suprise she texts me saying how that plant is still alive! I always take those types of comments as "I miss you but I just can't bring myself to say it."

In a week state I responded... . I just said oh nice. I'm sure you take good care of it. She then texted me at three in the morning. Like what was she possibly doing up at that hour? She never stays up past 11 and then she texts me at three in the morning when she has a bf?


Ridiculous.

[zenwexler]

She always speaks in code. She knows I just got to San Diego. She's still in New York

Her: Actually when I left for Christmas my roommates didn't water it and it apparently completely died and then it came back to life!

Me:Haha. See. Its like it's owner. It's a plant that never gives up!

Her: You are so weird. Thats sweet but... . also kinda weird. Hows san Diego?

Me: San Diego is great! It's absolutely gorgeous here. The weather is literally perfect. It's always warm but not too hot and sunny. It's kind of crazy. And the people are so nice. I'm very impressed so far.

Her: Omg thats so cool I wanna go. But ny will do for now, especially since I got mah peeps here. I just hate winter

Me: I know right? Winter gets old fast. Its crazy. Everything is out doors. Even the mall! Sign with a ballet company in Cali. Haha You really would love it here. Plus it's pretty close to your brother. I want my whole family to come out!

Her: Okay settle, im not moving out there haha i have another year here at least


Her: I'll go when you come back so we dont run into each other.  Haha jk

Me: who says I'm coming back?

Her: then I guess I won't come

Me:

Her: huh?

It's just always riddles. New York will do for now. I got my peeps here. Like if she was happy with friends and her bf she wouldn't make comments like that. It's just so bizarre to me.

[AimingforMastery]

Zen,

If (?), as it appears she has a bf and BPD (untreated?), why don't you replace NC (no contact) with NC (new contact) - as in join e harmony or match or something to get this behind you once and for all. I'm not telling you what to do, but my gf has BPD and I know how tough this is, and my gf is doing intensive treatment and improving and it still ripping my health apart.

You had a good life and I doubt you need this. As hard a sit is, if my gf was seeing someone else I'd have to accept its over - riddles or no riddles. In fact these riddles show you owe it to yourself to MOVE ON - in my humble opinion - and find a healthier partner.

GOOD LUCK

[Emelie Emelie]

Hey Zen - I read this thread from the beginning today.  I'm not sure if you've read my story but I was exactly where you are.  We had dated about a year, a drama filled year, and then he suddenly dumped me.  I was absolutely devastated.  A freaking mess for months.  Went to Therapy.  We kept in contact.  Five months later he begged me to get back together.  Had never loved a woman as much as he loved me.  Was determined to do whatever it took to make our relationship work.  DBT, support groups, quit drinking, you name it.  Full court press.  EVERYONE told me I was crazy.  My Therapist essentially told me there was no hope.  But hey... . he was really committed to making it work and I had spent hours on these boards and read a dozen books on BPD and learned communication techniques and I really thought I could do it better this time.  I was also afraid if I never tried I'd spend the rest of my life wondering.  And I loved him.  So I went back.  Over the strong objections of everyone in my life (including my teenaged daughter). 

It didn't take a year.  Same exact pattern but he dumped me four months later this time.  The pain is actually worse this time around.  I believed he was really committed to this relationship and so was I. 

[woodsposse]

There are some great points in AimingForMastery's post.  As hard as it is - having an ex who now has someone else in their life... . that pretty much is a reality check that it is over - riddles or no riddles.  And I know how difficult it is to accept it, but that is what it is.

My exPDw ripped me to shreds during the last years of our marriage.  I didn't know up from down.  It was horrible.  Although all the signs were there she was lining up my replacement and treating me like I didn't exist, I still held on during all the stressful game playing times, even thinking that if I just held on and even tried not to upset her that things could get back to normal and we could love each other.

That never happened.

Then the big split finally happened whether I wanted it or not, I just knew there was nothing else I could do and it was killing me.  So I said "go if you have to go".  But even then - she still couldn't leave me alone.

Once I started dating someone (even in the messed up state I was in), she still came crashing through the door and really put my head in a tail spin.  This went on for practically the whole time I was dating my new GF. Slowly I had to pull away from her (my ex-wife) while still trying to maintain that I was stable with my new GF.

Some days were better than others.  Some days sucked.

In the end, two things happened.

One... . I finally went LC with my ex... . then NC... . and I could finally detach and felt okay and acceptance came in for what we had been going through.  The disorder is a beast... . and although I could finally understand what I was dealing with, I had to figure out why I stayed in it so long.  Which lead me to understand what I brought to the table (my own FOO and childhood trauma issues).  So I came to acceptance of that as well.

The other thing which happened was, not two months after finally being stable with my split/divoce and not speaking to my ex and getting all stable and stuff... . me and my GF split up.  

I'm slowly coming to the realization that although I thought I was having a great new relationship after my split with my wife, all I had really done was get myself involved with someone (who was really great to be with) too fast and brought way too much baggage for our r/s to continue in any healthy way.

This is turning out to be a little more difficult for me to handle than I thought.  Mostly because I wish I had had the understanding I have now about what I had gone through with my wife all those years.  I wish I had finally understood that I was continuing to work out a pattern of dysfunctional relationships in some attempt to correct whatever was going on from my childhood.  Albeit unconsciously.

I did have a great time with my GF.  And I wish it didn't have to end.  But ultimately I know that I wasn't 100% ready to go forward with anyone because I was still connected to my ex.  Which is normal.

But neither my new GF nor I deserved to have my ex in the mix clouding up my head.  I'm positive, among other things, it was my baggage and connection to my ex which ultimately lead to us breaking up.  But, conversely - if I had known 18 short months ago what I know now, I'm positive my GF and I wouldn't have been together to start anyway.

Not to say that the relationship was dysfunctional.  It's just my emotions were so raw and her and I both deserved for them to be healed more to see if there was something more we could have had.  I don't know if there was.  All  I know is that part of me felt so good because I was with someone who wasn't trampling on me that I didn't care about anything else.

And I'm more responsible than that.  Not just to others, but to myself.

So, yes, I let a lot of things slip past me which I probably shouldn't have or normally wouldn't because it just felt good to be with her (or anyone who wasn't my  ex).  So in a way, my ex was with me during the entire relationship... . which, again, wasn't fair.

All of that is to say this... . try and see the reality of where you are.  you deserve to be healthy.

[AimingforMastery]

Great post Woodsposse.

The hardest things of all are to know are they making real progress - maybe 1 in 10 do - and whether the final straw has happened; and of course to work why are you in it in the first place!

Wishing you health and happiness.

[antjs]

Thank you so much for your in depth response. A part of me wants to run but I still do truly feel like she still cares. You say watch her actions not her words. Her words say I don't want to be with you but her actions say please stay in my life. So the fact that I believe she still has feelings for me is what keeps me around. But it hurts because she is dating someone else. She tries to flaunt it to me. The other day she said sorry for the delayed response. I was eating dinner then had a loong phone call. Insinuating she was talking to her new bf. I mean when she does things like that it just screams to me that she's not over me. I mean if she was in a happy and healthy relationship I would not be hearing from her!

please read about triangulation in abusive relationships. you seem young and healthy and are not too involved with this person yet. go to the leaving board and read about nons who have been married for 20 or 30 years and woke up one day to find their BPD have left in a flick of any eye leaving husband\wife and children behind and getting a new bf\gf within a week. too much sad and miserable stories. i myself have been in this chaos for 3 months and i have learned it the hard way. JUST RUN, MAINTAIN NO CONTACT AND DEAL WITH YOUR FEELINGS ON UR OWN UNTIL THEY GO AWAY. i am now recovering but came back to the undecided forum to help people.

[AimingforMastery]

Antony,

Great post for everyone. I am an undecided. I would welcome your views on my thread - "Advice sought" - as my gf is getting extensive treatment.

[zenwexler]

I know i'm doing this to myself. I know it's on me now. I am just so irritated! I sent her a picture of a dolphin. She loves sea life. What does she say? That I need new shoes. I was like haha uh ok. I got plenty of shoes.  she then said:

"you always have to make your point, ah, somethings never change. I don't know how we ever lasted as long as we did with all the fights. You have to admit, we were not good together."

Like really? All that because I sent her a freaking text of a cute dolphin. And then she wants to put on me saying I haven't changed? It makes me just want to scream.

One side of me wants to just say nothing, ignore her forever. The other side of me wants to say

"we stayed together because once upon a time we cared about each other. But now that has passed, We've moved on, and quite frankly I don't really enjoy this friendship much either. Then just go NC... . for REAL this time.

[AimingforMastery]

Zen,

Let's decode and then decode again... .

Decode # 1 - she hates the fact that you get her more than the guy she's with, so she lashes out

Decode # 2 - she can not take responsibility, she is betraying her current man saying this and betraying you

So - don't reply at all. She is a betrayer in her nature. Go NC now and never ever turn back.

[zenwexler]

Aimingfor is that really what you think? Because that's how I feel too. It just hurts when she puts it on me and says things like I haven't changed. Because all I have ever done lately is be as perfect as I can be. I literally kill her with  kindness and just absorb all her abuse and let it just roll of me. Aka I vent here  but it goes unoticed. She makes comments like the above and it just makes me more frustrated and confused

[AimingforMastery]

look, I cant tell you what to do.

BUT IF

1) she is getting now help, and

2) she has another man

3) she treats you badly

THEN RUN LIKE HELL

[AimingforMastery]

typo - she is NOT getting help - not "NOW"

[zenwexler]

So I wrote this,

" I'm sorry that yesterday you felt that way that I was like trying to argue or prove my point. I can definitely see how it came off like that. I really wasn't. I think things just got lost in translation through text. One of the drawbacks of only speaking through texts!

I really was just trying to send you a trailer about a movie that I thought you would like about how terrible sea world is and a picture of a dolphin and how my area is really conscious of marine life

Her response?

"Yesssss I know. Are you sure you don't want to get back together? I just want to make sure."

[AimingforMastery]

I am guessing clearly you would like to?

All I can say is unless she is in treatment I wouldn't.

Does she have a bf at this time?

Have you done EMDR to see why you are hooked?

[zenwexler]

Yes I told her no though, that you have a bf.

She said she is falling for her new guy. Suprise surpsie. She has ''fallen'' for every guy she has ever dated!

She asked because she just wants to make sure that I don't want to get back together. That there's not a doubt that she doesn't want to get back together with me.

So then it's like uhhh ok, then stop texting me!

[AimingforMastery]

Look, get clarity with your self.

If you want her back then you have to set clear boundaries and conditions - i.e. GET WELL and 110% loyalty.

If you genuinely think she has a real chance of doing that my advice would be say that, or otherwise walk.

I have said to my gf the following:-

1) - you must get therapy or I am gone - SHE is doing that now intensively

2) - you must be loyal 110% - assuming she is being truthful, she is doing that now and wants me to meet her parents now

3) - you must start being considerate and nicer to me - beginning to... .

But even then my health is failing and I have anxiety just thinking about her after what she has put me through.

So know what you want, evaluate if she can do it, then either ask her to or LEAVE FOR GOOD.

[zenwexler]

I've asked her! She said she never wants to get back together, that she's falling for her new guy yet she texts me all the time and every time I pull away she comes chasing after me.

If I could convince her to give me another chance. I would, but that proves to be difficult. She just wants to do this dance forever. I guess she gets enjoyment out of it.

I told her I think it's best we no longer talk,

She ok why?

I think I may just say You know I just want you to be happy. If you don't know that by now then I'll  never be able to convince you. Good bye

And just leave it at that. I don't know. She just freaking hurts me over and over