Empathy a BIG problem

[clljhns]

Hi all,

I was scanning all the articles available to read on the site. I was struck by several articles about supporting the BPD person and how to show empathy to them. Am I the only one who feels that these people do NOT need empathy? Maybe I just am so angry about the lack of love and kindness I so desperately needed (as all of my siblings needed) from my parents that I can't even consider having empathy for them.

Maybe it is just that all of us kids were made responsible for THIER feelings. Our feelings were never considered! If one of us was hurt or crying, we didn't get tender attention. We were yelled at and even cursed for being a burden!

I don't see how I could ever feel empathy for my parents! I do have some kind of empathy/guilt concerning my siblings, because we were all victims. But, now, as an adult, I am not tolerant of their shenanigans and refuse to support their delusional thoughts and destructive behaviors.

Am I just getting too old (am 49) to even care what their perspectives/feelings are (all family member), or could I have just been conditioned to not care?

I have always had difficulty tapping into emotions, so it could also just be a copping mechanism for me. Anyone else have difficulty feeling empathy for the BPD in their life?

[tryintogetby]

No, I don't think you're wrong to feel that way at all.  As adult children, we spent our wholefreakinglives being empathetic to them, reading them, watching them, caring for them, and it's completely right & appropriate to say, "What about me & my needs and my life and my emotions?" <3

[AnnieSurvivor]

I also see no need to feel empathy - if you don't want to try and feel empathy, so be it.  My goal at this point is not to feel empathy for my uBPD mother, but some level of sympathy now that I have a better understanding about why she behaves as she does.  That does not mean that sympathy extends to letting her mistreat me, walk over my boundaries, etc. 

I think the idea that we are "supposed" to have empathy comes from the FOG - society says "you should always look out for your family."  But we know that doesn't always apply- and it is dangerous to do so in some cases.

[Ziggiddy]

clljhns

I feel for you to have been yelled at when you were upset. It couldn't have been easy to go through that.

As for empathy,  i think mine's been exhausted. None left. Maybe that means I have a trace of the disorder. It's one of the characteristics isn't it? or is that NPD? Any which way -if  you feel squeezed for all the energy emotion and empathy you have and you receive so very little of it in return it leaves you feeling drained and like "why would I want to?" In a 'normal' relationship you can empathise with each other - isn't that what we are doing here? But when the BPD'd person wants empathy and validation there doesn't seem to be an effect. You can  validate till the cows come home and they still want more. I think it's part of a healthy boundary to say "Sorry - you have to learn to soothe yourself a bit." It feels like a rejection of belief to me. Like all the reassurance and understanding doesn't enter in and it is asked for again tomorrow. Maybe I'm just bitter as i begin to understand this disorder and maybe later on I'll change my mind but right now i think they can learn to study and research and see a therapist the same way we can and then maybe, if they learn to empathise with me, I can do the same for them.

Man I just reread that. it seems harsh and a little judgmental to me. BPD'd people need love too. I just don't have it in ME to deliver it right nowPeace )x

[clljhns]

Ziggiddy,

I wonder if what I am really dealing with is guilt over not feeling empathy for them. I agree with what you said about the BPD making the choice to get help, just as we here on this site have. I also agree that they deserve love and kindness, just like anyone else. But, damn!, I just don't want to be the one put in firing line again. Maybe that is the difference. Maybe they need someone who they do not have a relationship with to give them empathy. Okay. Reality check. BPD's are exhausting people to deal with. I really wouldn't wish any of my family on my worst enemy.

Okay, so back to the beginning. Yes, they need empathy. I just know it won't be me. Maybe I can learn to send them positive feelings through the ether, but not in person.

Thanks for your reply!

[Obibens]

Believe me, I can relate to the feeling in this post.  But there is also a big difference between empathy and sympathy.  Empathy can be looked at as being able to understanding what others are feeling because you have experienced it yourself or can put yourself in their shoes.  I can usually empathize with the emotions of anger, hurt, betrayal that they are feeling. I had those many times in many of the same situations.  I can also empathize with feeling out of control in those situations. 

Sympathy is more like acknowledging another person's emotional hardships and providing comfort and assurance.  THAT is definately what I struggle with and I have a feeling that's what most of the posts on this board refer to.  I know (or at least can imagine) what it's like to feel the way they feel at times.  But that doesn't mean I need to always provide comfort and assurance for those emotions, especially when they are directed at me.  But, my empathy allows me to make the better choice to disengage and protect myself.  Not to lash out in return.  Because that gets me nowhere.   At least thats what I TRY to do,

But I don't think lack of sympathy is a disorder, I think it's a choice.  And I think that's what we may be really talking about.

[lost and found]

We all want empathy deep down inside, but the borderlines in my family don't ask for that - they ask for sympathy (of the feel sorry for me variety) or control. Mostly control. It is the manipulativeness that makes it so very, very hard to step back and say, well they are probably doing this because they feel horrible. Well, the manipulativeness and the abuse. It's pretty hard to feel for somebody when they are raging and hurling insults at you.

It's also easier to feel for somebody when you see them taking some responsibility for themselves and trying to get better. If they just create chaos and unhappiness and then expect people to pay attention because these bad things that they created happened, it's pretty easy to get burnt out on that. And then I hear how heartless I am. I can get sucked into feeling guilty pretty quickly, because I would feel bad for anybody else. I would try to help anybody else. It's just that I know the background and how they brought 95% of their problems onto themselves. I also know how futile it is to try to help. They run through money, opportunity, and professional assistance in an instant.

Another thing that nags at me is - there are a lot of people out there who have been abused, neglected, etc. It isn't a contest to see who is hurting the most. But most people don't purposely attack others, verbally or physically, because they are hurting. That is really where I lose sympathy, empathy, or anything along those lines. I can feel for the problems that some of my BPD family members have in their lives, but the outright cruelty - and that is ongoing, not some momentary emotional lashing out, but really a constant - that's where they lose me.

[Louise7777]

"BPD's are exhausting people to deal with. I really wouldn't wish any of my family on my worst enemy."

I cant help but laughing at that one.  I agree completely, they are exhausting and draining. Even with NC or VLC I still have the effects of decades witnessing/ being the target of their behaviours.

My parents were not BPD, but 2 aunts are, so this created a lot of havoc and chaos. Not to mention the enablers around.

clljhns, I think most of us feel the same. Specially cause its not something that happened in a distant past and stopped, it continues to this day. For example, I have been dealing with my mom´s depression for over a year and none of my 2 aunts has ever phoned to ask about their sister. They have no empathy whatesoever. No need to say we were always there for them, helping them, taking to places, visiting, rushing when hearing fake suicide threats, etc. They are not capable of a simple "how are you doing?". One of them is specially malevolent and gets happy when others are down.

I feel they created their own particular hell and now they can live on it. Never looked for help. I was parentified by them, even not being their daughter... . I heard a lot of complaints like I was a therapist... . Im done, people are responsible for their own lives. And above all, they dont care about anybody else.

[clljhns]

Wow L&F this statement really spoke to me: "It's also easier to feel for somebody when you see them taking some responsibility for themselves and trying to get better."

This is exactly what I am getting at. I have no problem offering my time, energy, and emotions to someone who holds themselves accountable and wants to get better.

"I know (or at least can imagine) what it's like to feel the way they feel at times.  But that doesn't mean I need to always provide comfort and assurance for those emotions, especially when they are directed at me."

Yes, Obibens! I agree! That is why I took the blind-fold off and stepped out of the firing line.

"I feel they created their own particular hell and now they can live on it. Never looked for help." Yep. That sums it up, Louise7777.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, clljhns,

You are asking some good questions. I think it is understandable that you don't want to think about your parents' feelings. It is hard on children who are taught to be the emotional caretakers in a family at the expense of their own needs.

The reason we emphasize validation tools like S.E.T. here is that they do help with to reduce conflict because when the other person feels heard and understood, emotions are less likely to escalate. This helps in all kinds of relationships, not just with people who have BPD. Another thing to keep in mind is that while all of the articles here can probably benefit the entire membership, many of them are written for an audience of relationship partners. A relationship between romantic partners is different in many ways (or should be) than a relationship between a parent and child. Those of us who had a parent with BPD usually had an improperly balanced parent-child relationship where we were taught to feel responsible for a parent's feelings from a very young age. Learning to assert a distinct self and maintain healthy emotional boundaries are some important goals for us. Do you remember which articles left you feeling uneasy about empathy?

I think Obibens makes a good point that there is a difference between empathy and sympathy. In case it helps, here is the way I think of it (very similar):

empathy ("feeling into": Putting yourself in someone else's shoes or being able to identify what they are feeling because you have felt similarly yourself

sympathy("feeling with": Feeling the same way as someone else

apathy("without feeling": Feeling indifferent or lacking concern

Examples of empathy might be:

"I imagine I would feel devastated if I was told I wouldn't be allowed to be alone with my grandchildren, too."

"I remember a time I got punched in the stomach. He must be in a lot of pain to say those words are like a punch in the stomach."

"I can see why she's feeling excited about her new boyfriend. It feels good to fall in love."

"We all want to feel heard and understood."

"I feel lonely sometimes, too."

Practicing empathy does not require me to "offer my time, energy, and emotions" to anyone. It is not the same thing as agreeing with someone else's feelings or running to help them feel better. I don't have to match my emotional state to someone else's in order to understand it. I also don't have to agree with their point of view; I can have my own thoughts and feelings even while acknowledging theirs. I can also have empathy without feeling a need to fix or change what someone is feeling.

I don't have to say:

"Oh, you poor thing, what can I do to help?"

"You're right, your boss is a total scumbag."

"It would be awful to be homeless, of course I will lend you some money for rent."

"I feel terrible that you are upset, I am so sorry I said no."

Of course, I understand that sometimes even just trying to put oneself in someone else's shoes can be exhausting. (<--See what I did there?   ) It is hard to have empathy for others when we are struggling with our own emotions. This is one reason why people with BPD struggle with empathy, too. It is ok if you are not feeling ready to identify what your mother may be feeling. Sometimes we have to learn to take care of ourselves first--we have spent a lot of energy suppressing our own emotions and needs, so identifying what we are feeling is important, too.

Does any of that help?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[clljhns]

P.F. Change,

Yes! It does help. As the particular article, I know that I found it under resources. I think the focus of the article was about learning to have empathy for the BPD, but with boundaries.

I think the one thing that I recognize is that I am back in the cycle of grief. Even though I haven't had a relationship with my parents in many years, I did attempt to reconnect with my sister just five months ago. Oldest sister has definitely let her cheese slip of her cracker, so there really wasn't any need to continue to engage. Other sister seemed so normal and welcoming at first. You know, "Oh, I am so happy to hear from you! I thought about you a lot and love and miss you!" I was so traumatized by my last encounter with this sister, that all I would do is text or email. I couldn't even think about hearing her sobbing and vacillating between Waif and Queen.

It seemed to go well for several months, and then she pulled out her paranoid demon and hurled insults at me. Unprovoked. I was back in the whole anger and grief process. Not just with my sisters, buy now with my whole family. I am so hurt and disappointed that I don't have any of my FOO in my life. Feels really strange, even though I have a family of choice and my daughter. It still feels as if every time I want to build a bridge to them, they come with their wrecking balls ready to knock it down. Self-fulfilling prophecy on their part? I will reject you before you can reject me? Or perhaps I just have a child's view of my family, and not an adults perspective.

I can see where I am still angry with them, and hence my post about having trouble having empathy for any of them, not just my parents.

Thank you so much for asking the questions, giving me an opportunity to do some more reflection of my own emotions and the work I still have to do. I am so grateful that I have found this site and cannot tell how incredibly important this outlet is for me to share my thoughts, feelings, and experiences with safe and compassionate people! 

[diega]

Hi all,

I was scanning all the articles available to read on the site. I was struck by several articles about supporting the BPD person and how to show empathy to them. Am I the only one who feels that these people do NOT need empathy? Maybe I just am so angry about the lack of love and kindness I so desperately needed (as all of my siblings needed) from my parents that I can't even consider having empathy for them.

Maybe it is just that all of us kids were made responsible for THIER feelings. Our feelings were never considered! If one of us was hurt or crying, we didn't get tender attention. We were yelled at and even cursed for being a burden!

I don't see how I could ever feel empathy for my parents! I do have some kind of empathy/guilt concerning my siblings, because we were all victims. But, now, as an adult, I am not tolerant of their shenanigans and refuse to support their delusional thoughts and destructive behaviors.

Am I just getting too old (am 49) to even care what their perspectives/feelings are (all family member), or could I have just been conditioned to not care?

I have always had difficulty tapping into emotions, so it could also just be a copping mechanism for me. Anyone else have difficulty feeling empathy for the BPD in their life?

nope. no empathy. it's waaay too confusing and only ends up hurting me. besides if i had a boyfriend who beat the ___ out of me no one would even consider that i should have empathy for him.  so... that is how i feel about my BPD m.  she just happened to have been my mother but her abusive-in-every-way behavior deserves no empathy.  I don't want to spend energy hating her either but I prefer feeling indifference to her vs anything else.  i just don't want to give her any more energy than she has already taken. It's different for each person. My sister has BPD and she is kind hearted and generous and is one of those BPD's who really believes her feelings even if they are way  off base. my mother knows exactly what she is doing, and she victimizes. that is almost evil to me. so even though i do feel sorry for her sometimes and i am full of angry at her quite often... the preferred feeling would be indifference. i think if you do not feel empathy that is okay. i think it's a good thing if the person was abusive to you especially.

[clljhns]

Thank you Diega,

she just happened to have been my mother

You know this is definitely one of the things that I clung to for many years. Just trying to help separate from mom by doing this. I am happy to know that you have dealt with the anger her abuse caused you. I really thought that I had this all behind me, but nope, got slapped in the face with the realization that I am still angry. I think reading those articles just fueled my rage, but I guess this was really a good thing, as I had not recognized this was happening.

Maybe one day we can all put these painful experiences behind us and have true peace. Feeling a little tired of the whole mess.

Peace and blessings 

[Ziggiddy]

clljhns

It may not be useful to you but I thought I'd share this as a sidepoint. My brother identified my parents' bizarre behaviours over 20 years ago and seceded from the family. Like you, he reached out on occasion. He tried to find some semblance of a r'ship with each of us except my dad. (Another day for that post methinks!) I had my own anger all balled up at him for the way he was when we were kids but that was magnified and stirred up over and over by BPDm's consistent and relentless 'propaganda' about him.

I truly believed he was treating her terribly and unkindly and was wholly without natural feelings without ever really paying attention to the facts.

My sister to whom he sent loan after loan, whom he always visited when in the state (he lives 3000km away) always took her whole family out for meals or treats, bought her kids presents etc etc used to trash him as much as mum did.

He would always make an effort to visit mum, take her places, bought her things - big things a fridge, car repairs etc, help her with household stuff - moving heavy things, making arrangements for a hundred different things for her, paid for her to visit him (flights, fuel, took time off work, cooked every meal, washed every dish, took her wherever she wanted to go) without any fanfare or pomp and ceremony the way the rest of my family would and STILL I believed her so sad stories about his lack of respect, how he didn't honour her, would limit the amount of time she could spend with his friends, try and enforce his rules on her in his house. Blah blah. I bought it. I bought it ALL and hated him for it.

And then we began a reconciliation process as I became more aware of mum's problems. it has been 10 years in the doings but I finally see how the influence of her distortions 'kept us all loyal' to her. My sister still won't respond to his texts emails always cancels or unavailable when he's here. And now as I rebuild my own sense of self he is my staunchest anchor and my means to reality (if he saw me getting flogged and thought it was brutal then maybe I don't have to minimise it and dismiss it as 'the way all parents disciplined their kids)

My point is that your family members may be so enthralled and occupied by their own demons as you say that they simply cannot see the true nature of this bizarre disorder. One of them may have an epiphany moment that is followed up by effort on working the problem. Ok it's not always likely and it may be too much to hope for, but the fact that it happened to me gives me hope that it could happen for others although that hope is not a strong one! That's MY decision to protect myself whilst not wholly giving up. You may need something else

I can completely understand your frustration and sadness. You made yourself vulnerable to your sister and even had some hope of improvement in your r'ship with her which makes the sudden attack even more painful as it squashed renewed good feelings and gave you a rough setback. I am such an amateur at all this but I have to commend you for getting back up after the knockdown and rebooting your own healing. And I have just learned something new again - that I am not going to continue reading anything or listening to anyone that twangs with me. Everyone has a different take on how to deal with the effects of this but 'bad associations spoil useful habits' And if that 'bad association' leaps out from a book or a person or an article and it ain't helping or it's inflammatory well ... . I think I'll just walk away from it. For now ;o)

I hope you get some peace. And a hot chocolate maybe? )

[clljhns]

Oh, Ziggiddy,

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I do still hold out hope for a reconciliation, but this would mean that they would have to be healthy. I guess all things are possible.

[quote I am such an amateur at all this but I have to commend you for getting back up after the knockdown and rebooting your own healing.][/quote]
Thank you, again! I just look forward to the day when I am no longer haunted by these demons.

I hope you get some peace. And a hot chocolate maybe?

Had to smile at this.  All things chocolate make life better! 

[Coral]

Having empathy for my BPD sibling is easier for me than not having it.  It's rather like having empathy for a rabid dog.  My heart is touched by the dog's plight but I'm not going to get bit (I'll see to that) and may even be the one to put the dog out of its misery.

Not having empathy puts my sib and me on the same dance floor and I get enraged because she's stomping so hard, she's damaging the dance floor.  Empathy allows me to have some separation.

[Ziggiddy]

clljhns - hey I know what you mean. It can get so serious and we can get to dwelling on pain and feel futile and nothing is as good a balm as a great laugh. I have just been surfing Disney pages and smiling like anything.

Also i saw an article this morning about a surgeon who had burnout and what he called 'compassion fatigue' it's like your compassion jug is empty so you stop feeling  sympathetic to others. It's protection so you don't breakdown from emotion overload. You may be experiencing this rather than a lack of empathy. After you have rested your wounds and found some joy in other parts of life so this doesn't dominate you may find your compassion levels ready to rise again.

Sending peace

[sandraD]

I am really angry that I had to have a mother with this disorder.  She has never been normal and today I told her that I was not going to listen to any more excuses of why she was abusive to me and my siblings and to my children. She just does not comprehend how bad she treats people and since I have started taking up for my rights as a person who deserves to be treated with kindness and respect, her anger towards me has greatly increased.  I really resent her for being the way she is and I wished I could have had a better mother in my life.  I think I would be happier if I just did not ever see her again in this lifetime. 

[StarStruck]

Hi - I do feel sorry for my mother when I think how she turned out that way (BPD) but thats where it stops. I have worked hard to put myself first and that's were it stays. It's self protection, just because they have been damaged and have lack of empathy doesn't mean you have to feel sorry for them at the expense of oneself. Their behavior shouldn't be justified with regards to the victims having a life on their own - the rot has to stop somewhere.

[clljhns]

Ziggiddy, thanks for giving me another perspective on this. I think this could be part of it. Just tired of the roller-coaster ride. I do the same thing, look at or watch things that make me laugh. Laughter is the best medicine!

SandraD. I know where you are coming from. I am so sorry that your mother is getting angrier in response to you getting healthy. Stay strong! You are doing he right thing for you!

StarStruck, yea, I feel sorry for them all. I just can't imagine being tormented on a daily basis by their emotional and mental afflictions. I guess because I have worked to hard to rid myself of fleas, I just don't understand why anyone would accept themselves like this and feel that it is good enough.

Peace and blessings to all