Meeting tomorrow - giving her an ultimatum

[spicelover]

Hey Guys,

I've been apart from my girl for nearly 7 weeks now.  During the past 7 weeks I've had very little communication with her, except she will text me from time to time (especially on the weekends), to encourage me to "pick up" if I want.  I know that's her just wanting me to reassure her that I'm not moving on.  I've expressed my love for her many times, and only just come to the realisation that she may be BPD.

If I send her anything mushy at all... . she ignores me.  But if I send her a normal friendly text she will reply nearly straight away.  It's really strange.  She wants the "dust to settle" to see where things go, but definitely wants to work on herself for now.  I get that... . but I don't understand what the "dust settling" actually means.  She has turned up at my workplace a couple of times for a chat and coffee which really got to me.  At the time I had decided to let her go and move on, but when she visited it really affected me.  I started wanting to know if there was anything left to work on again.

Anyway, so tomorrow we are meeting for lunch.  I was going to ask her to either start dating me again (very slowly starting with 1 date, and taking it from there - we'd prevously been living together) and trying to figure things out, and showing her all of the changes I'd made over the past 7 weeks that were apparently making her unhappy (mainly to do with issues from my past - ex-wife)... . if she doesn't want to do that I will then draw a very clear line for her and ask her to leave me alone.  No more texts, no more visits, nothing.  Is that a bad thing to do?  I really still do love her, but WOW my heart can't take any more of this punishment.  I'm physically sick most days worrying about it all, and I miss her so much I can't eat.

Any help would be greatly appreciated...

[Confused?]

That's a scary story to hear. Mine was very similar into talking after being split and just being friendly. As soon as I would say I love her nothing in return. I had suspicions of her seeing someone else so I would not give in without the truth. She continued to lie and saying she would never hurt me, why would I accuse her of such things. After a week of lies it was just a bunch of arguing over the phone and her on the defense. She called me one Sunday night after a weekend of no talking. She said she was sorry and loved me. I said ur not sorry then I told her the lies she she was telling her roommates and me about where she was. Saw her at the grocery store with my replacement the next day.

It makes me sick to think if I reacted the way I did the whole relationship that I might be back with her and that guy would be on the side. The one thing I had left for her besides pity was trust and that was completely gone. Just left with pity now and now it's not my problem.

[Confused?]

If it seems like she is only talking to you when it's convenient for her then I would proceed with absolute caution. I loved mine too but you know in your gut when something's wrong. My whole relationship she would talk to me every second of everyday. So when she said she needed time to think an this an that it was a huge red flag

[spicelover]

Thanks guys, I genuinely don't believe she'd be seeing someone else yet.  I've seen her Facebook (yeah stupid idea), and it's all plastered with me still.  I think she's just having a melt-down.  We've agreed where to meet, and she's very cheery on the texts. 

I think either way I'm going to be happy tomorrow.  Either we're starting fresh... . OR, I can move on and I won't look back.  It will be hard, but I know it will be for the best.  I won't be with someone who can't show me respect when I've opened my heart to them like I have.  I've been nothing but a perfect boyfriend (except for that one night)... . and she will live to rue the day she let me go if she does.  If she doesn't, then I'll put my heart and soul into making it work.  The choice will be hers.

I can't go through another day of pain like this so it has to happen...

Any tips/suggestions on how best to handle?

[heartandwhole]

Hi spicelover,

Welcome to the site.  I'm sorry that you are hurting, sudden breakups like that are so difficult.  You've found a place with tons of tools to help, and members who will support you in whatever you decide to do.

Any tips/suggestions on how best to handle?

I would caution thinking that this lunch meeting will be the end-all, be-all of your new and improved life.   A lot of wonderful things may be said, but that doesn't mean anything will change if you get back together. 

I recommend going in knowing exactly what you want, and what you will, and will not accept going forward.  It is up to you to clearly define your boundaries.  It's not enough to just see what she says and react to that.

I encourage you to check out the communication tools on the Staying board, and here is another link that will be helpful for you:

The Do's and Don'ts for a BP relationship

Remember, without a commitment on her part to get help and support as well as you, little is likely to change.

Let us know how it goes. 

heartandwhole

[bpdspell]

I agree with heart and whole. The staying board will always prove invaluable to you. It's ok it you aren't ready to detach but please remember that taking things slow in a recycle will not eradicate or slow down your ex's mental illness. It lives within her so it's best that you learn strategies on how to co-exist within a borderline relationship.

There really are no "ultimatums" in a borderline relationship. If you're going to be with a borderline you have to accept that an untreated borderline will always have a strong tendency to be triggered. Your needs will not be met because her BPD compromises her ability to emotionally validate you. The push/pull antics and all of the trouble's that you've experienced with her before will not magically go away just because you miss each other and have had a significant amount of time apart.

I too was physically sick when my ex and I didn't speak for three weeks. We both missed each other terribly and slowly but surely we recycled with a couple of day of bliss then BOOM…right back to where we started but even worse as our bond of trust had been completely destroyed due to his lies and cheating and my inclination to hold back.  I honestly had no clue about narcissism, BPD or what I was really up against.

It's hard to process mental illness when a person looks completely normal on the outside. The more we recycled the faster his mask would drop and it's so heartbreaking. Please read all you can about BPD, narcissism and more importantly protect yourself and your heart.

Spell

[Skip]

Then one night she went out with her friends for a few drinks, came home and was very drunk.  She started telling me about her night out, and I asked about one of our mutual friends (who she thinks is very attractive), and she punched me really hard in the groin and asked why I wanted to know about her?  i was shocked I just asked if she was there.  This got me really angry so i tipped my glass of water on her (it was half full but still I probably should have restrained). We said a heap of mean things to each other, and she ran off.  I settled down and went to find her to apologise and give her a hug, but she was gone.  By this stage is was midnight, so I went outside to find her and there she was half naked in the garden on t he phone to my PARENTS.  I couldn't believe why she'd call them at that time of the night.  She'd lost it... . so I tried to grab to phone from her and she started screaming at the top of her lungs that I was trying to kill her.  I was mortified.  I followed her back into the house into our bedroom. We had a little struggle over the phone and she was screaming.  All of the neighbours were waking up, it was just awful.  So got the phone, apologised to them and said I'd call them back in the morning and hung up.  She attacked me to get her phone back and started grabbing at my throat and scratched all down with her fingernails and there was blood all down my neck and shirt - this is when I should have walked away.  instead I pushed her away very hard and she fell onto the side of the bed and hurt her arm.  it was terrible.  I was disgusted in myself, and I went to hug her and try to settle her down, but she kicked me and ran off with the phone.  She went to her sisters that night and never came back.

spicelover, this was domestic violence.  :)oesn't matter who started it... .  

There really are no "ultimatums" in a borderline relationship.

Ultimatums don't work well in love... . BPD or not.  It isn't likely going to make your relationship get back on track.

She's a women first and foremost - she is responding to your casual txts but not your romantic txts.  We can't be sure what the exact message is, but "I need space right now" is certainly part of it.  Generally, in any relationship, when one partner needs space, its most constructive to give it.

Remember, you overpowered her in the fight - don't try to overpower her here.  :)on't try to control this (by pushing or by pulling).  It's not a healthy move.

I might suggest going to lunch and being the nice guy that you can be and let her be in control.  Start off casual and stay there unless she opens the door for more.  And if she does, follow her, don't take the lead.  Be a nice likable guy.

Aside from lunch, have you talked to you therapist about your mixed feeling here.  On one hand you are tagging her as 9.9 on a BPD Richter Scale and on the other, you are thinking of giving her the "love me or set me free" speech.  That's a real contrast.  

You still have a bit if sorting to do here - monster or beauty or somewhere in between - right?  Who is she?  Who are you?  Is this a good mix?

Hard questions.  I have struggled with them myself - even if you don't know, keep trying - it get clearer.

She maybe asking the very same questions, too.  That's a good thing.

Skip

PS, Don't be a doormat.  I would certainly slip in - "are you wanting to see others?" - and hear the answer and don't follow it up.  Be prepared with a simple answer to this question yourself.

[spicelover]

Thanks guys,

@Skip: yes it was an ugly night.  I'm so sad that it got to that and full accept my own responsibility over my part.

She's definitely indicated that she needs space - which is her main message.  What I don't understand is what this means.  Which is really what I'd like to get out of today's meeting.  I was willing to step away and let her sort out what she needs, but the fact that she turns up to my work and follows up with emails to tell me how great I look and sound afterwards really messes with me. 

Last week I asked her if she wanted me to stop pursuing her and to just leave her alone (I did this via text as I don't really see her except for the random pop-ups), and she told me she couldn't say right now, but she "still feels", but we'll see where things are "after the dust settles".  She keeps saying that dust settling thing.  Again, I'm really confused because she won't just let me go, but won't let me into her life.  So I feel like I need to make the choice now. 

Does that make any sense?

Maybe I'm starting to go a little nuts   

[Skip]

She says she needs space.  

Space typically means she is overloaded with it all, has reasons to stay and reasons to let go, just doesn't want to deal with it right now because it is overwhelming.  She wants to step back and get perspective.

What I don't understand is what this means.  

It means no pressure.  It also means that pressure will push her further away.

I'm really confused because she won't just let me go, but won't let me into her life.  

It's an uncomfortable place to be... . for anyone.

So I feel like I need to make the choice now.    

I think your choices are:

End it by telling her - which will push her away

Force ultimatum - which will push her away

Accept the "space" in a clingy way* -  which will push her away

Accept the "space" in a manly way - neutral to pulling her toward you

Beg -  which will push her away

One of these let's you be strong, seed the best possible feelings with her, and gives you some options.

When someone wants space, the best thing is to give a lot of it.  :)on't be clingy - "I need to know, now" - just be strong - "OK, space is fine, no problem".

Again, don't be a doormat.  You decide how much space is too much space given the situation.  At  __ weeks and with no one else involved -  you can leave the door open. At __  + ____ weeks, it's time to start moving on, keep the door cracked.   If someone is involved, step away for good, etc.

Hope this helps.  It's not an easy time and seven weeks is long, but not too long - it's getting there.

Skip


* asking her to make up her mind

[LettingGo14]

I think your choices are:

End it by telling her - which will push her away

End it by ultimatum - which will push her away

Accept the "space" in a clingy way* -  which will push her away

Accept the "space" in a manly way - neutral to pulling her toward you

Beg -  which will push her away

One of these let's you be strong, seed the best possible feelings with her, and gives you options.

This is good advice.  I wish I had illustrated my options so succinctly when I faced the situation. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Skip, based completely on experience.

[spicelover]

Thanks again Skip,

I think the problem is that yes, I was willing to step away, and really I have.  We might talk once a week, but then she started turning up in person at my workplace, which really put the spanner in the works for me.  Then after the first time she did that sent me a bunch of emails that night telling me how great I was doing etc... . and that she was so impressed.  That set me back to square one.

I guess the point of today is to say yes, I'll give her space but would like to remain committed to each other.  If she doesn't want that, then no more contact.  That's fair enough right?  That's not clingy?

[Skip]

Thanks again Skip,

I think the problem is that yes, I was willing to step away, and really I have.  We might talk once a week, but then she started turning up in person at my workplace, which really put the spanner in the works for me.  Then after the first time she did that sent me a bunch of emails that night telling me how great I was doing etc... . and that she was so impressed.  That set me back to square one.

I guess the point of today is to say yes, I'll give her space but would like to remain committed to each other.  If she doesn't want that, then no more contact.  That's fair enough right?  That's not clingy?

If that's your value/boundary it would sound like this... .

"I understand you want some space - does that mean you're not dating and not going to get involved with others while we sort this out?"

If she says "I don't know", accept that (and decide later if it's a walk for you - it may just be a test or honest uncertainty)

If she asks, how do you feel about it - tell her you hear her - "I wanted to know where you are" (hard I know).

If she asks, what do you want to do - tell her your preference - "I would prefer that we both felt like it was important to stay committed until we sort this out."

If she asks, what are you going to do - tell her your preference - "I have to think about it."

Do yourself a favor - leave it open for her to tell you the truth.  :)on't force her answer - it will bite you in the long run - confuse you, if you do.

Good mental health is hard.  It means making hard choices like this one.  

[spicelover]

That is my boundary yeah.  I guess I'm just in limbo.  I feel like she's just keeping me dangling on a piece of string while she's doing what she has to do, meanwhile I am waiting around.  It is a terrible feeling, but I want to man up a bit and get her to face some reality that I can't go on like that.  I still love her, and I know it's a long road if we were to get back together, but I think it would be worth trying.  If she doesn't want to do that now I need to let her go for my own sanity.

[spicelover]

So it didn't go well at all.  She really has gone on me.  I'm feeling very empty right now.  Just some notes on how some of the conversation went for anyone interested if you're going through something similar:

• She still couldn't get past the fact I had an ex-wife and thought herself as a "rebound" for me



• She thinks I used her to make my ex-wife jealous by projecting our "perfect relationship"



• She said some harsh stuff like "all of my friends think I look so much happier now", which is hurtful, as when we were together she used to say stuff like "all of my friends say I've never looked so happy" hmmm



• All of my friends are trying to set me up again, and want me to "get back in the saddle" - nice



• She accused me of "keeping tabs" on her as one of our mutual friends was on the phone to her boss (as he's a client), and said to say hello to her. So she instantly thought I was using him to SPY on her... . the paranoia in this girl WOW



• When I suggested she moved back in with her original housemate (she's really lost right now), she accused me of wanting to spy on her ... . I don't know why she thinks I'd want to spy on her



• She asked if she could block me on Facebook (I'd already unfriended her), and she said that it was too painful to see my posts. I said why don't you just not look at my page? She said she couldn't help it... . so I blocked her when I got back to work to save her the bother, and also unfriended all of her friends just in case



• She wouldn't see a counsellor together as she wants to work her own life out first (fair enough)

[BorisAcusio]

How many times are you going to keep hurting yourself... ? What are you some kind of sadist... ? Do you enjoy being tortured by this person...  would you willingly tie yourself up and let someone shock you?  Thats is what you are basically doing being with her...  The push/pull cycle repeats...  each time she feels that she is losing you, she will throw you scraps and make you believe it will be different this time...  how many cycles are you willing to go through before you end up giving up?  How much time has past by where its been mostly bad and hardly any good in the relationship...  Why do you continue to be with this person hoping for a different outcome when shes proven to be incapable of giving you what you want... ?  Once you bring your own needs to the table she will hate you.  You arent allowed to have needs of your own... you were put on earth to fill her needs and save her...  Anything less than that and you will see the monster that they really are.

Was it all worth it... ?  Being with this person, what did it cost you?  It cost me a lot... but im finally off the roller coaster and i will never get back on that ride again.

What i didn't realize is i was playing a game i couldnt win.  

You can't make them happy, nothing you do will ever be enough... You could give them the moon and they still wouldnt be happy.  You could sacrifice your own life for them and they still wouldnt believe that you cared. Nothing you do will ever make them happy... Remember this.

Maybe you'd like to try... ? hmm... how to keep them somewhat happy lets see...

1. Be a complete doormat.

2. Never blame them for anything, even if they really are wrong.

3.  Validate every feeling they have at the cost of your own.

4. Give up all your own needs

5. do not expect to get as much as you put in

6. Do not expect to be loved like you love them

7. Do not ever disappoint them in anyway

8. Do not ever tell them they are wrong

9. treat them like children.

10. let them rage at you for no reason and take it.

Does this sound like a normal healthy relationship to you? Can you possibly be happy with this kind of person for the rest of your life?

[Skip]

Why is she ending the relationship?

[spicelover]

Hey Skip,

Well it has been because of the mounting pressure of my ex-wife being in our life to some degree because of the kids.  She couldn't handle that at all.  So it's been a constant struggle for her.  I told her yesterday how much I'd managed things for my ex-wife now and the changes I've made to the way we communicate (I like it being easy and amicable but that apparently meant I wanted her back), and all of the great things I've done lately. 

She basically turned every single thing I had to say yesterday right aound on me.  The fact that I'd changed the way I communicate with my ex-wife meant that I'd had to speak to her and spend time with her figuring it out.  I told her that it was all for her sake so it would make our relationship easier, because it should be about us.  But no that wasn't good enough.  She accused me of using her to make my ex-wife jealous then.  And it went downhill from there.  Pretty much everything I said, she found a problem with.

She said she's just not ready to talk about all of that stuff, and needs to be alone for now.  Fair enough.  But she's out partying all the time, so it doesn't look like she's spending time to work on herself, it just looks like she's having fun.  Maybe she is, maybe she isn't, but I can't keep hanging around.  She said to me that I need to make the choice to move on, and not ask her what she'd like.  She forced me to make the decision, and to be honest I can't wait around.  I said I'd wait, but she said no promises.  That could be a year or more.  Then we could get back together and she might do the same thing?  Not a great life at all.

She's since sent a bunch of emails and wants to come and see me, but I'm asking her to leave me alone.  She's not having a good couple of days that's for sure

Spice

[Skip]

Well it has been because of the mounting pressure of my ex-wife being in our life to some degree because of the kids.  She couldn't handle that at all.  So it's been a constant struggle for her.

So she is not seeing herself fitting is as a stepmom or operating in a blended family.

I read this today:

My boyfriend of two years has two daughters, age 7 and 6... . they are good girls, although a little crazy and unruly, and they adore me but I can't shake the unhappy feeling that having them in my life brings to me. I feel like such a horrible person, they are not rude or difficult children, and yet I dread when they are over or when we will be spending time with them. When I am with them, it's usually not as bad as I imagined but I get myself so worked up. They are very needy and I get so irritated with stupid little things like when they go into the refrigerator and eat food I've bought or use my things. Most of the time I keep my mouth shut but I feel myself getting so annoyed at them and at the situation in general. When I don't see them I feel great and I don't miss them but as soon as the prospect of seeing them comes up, I'm miserable. I don't know why I feel this way, especially considering they are good girls and they really love me. I like them but I can't feel love for them. I'm afraid to marry my boyfriend and take on this role of stepmother for a lifetime. And after reading so many posts of how things seem to get so much worse, I just dread the future. Why do I feel this way? Will it ever get better?

Being a stepmom is hard, and sacrificing (the kids are #1), and there are many horror stories out there.  She is not unique in struggling to make sense of the bio-parents relationship to each other and living in the shadow of all they shared together.

Well it has been because of the mounting pressure of my ex-wife being in our life to some degree because of the kids.  She couldn't handle that at all.  So it's been a constant struggle for her.  I told her yesterday how much I'd managed things for my ex-wife now and the changes I've made to the way we communicate (I like it being easy and amicable but that apparently meant I wanted her back), and all of the great things I've done lately.  

Respectfully, you sound like you see this as her deal/deficiency and feel she just needs to follow your game plan. Have you underestimated the sacrifice she feels she must make.

She said to me that I need to make the choice to move on, and not ask her what she'd like.  She forced me to make the decision, and to be honest I can't wait around.

Spice', in the spirit of trying to help you, I'm going to say something a little hard.  These two sentences say a lot about how you listen and interpret what she says - it's all about your needs.   I'm not saying you don't do a lot for her - I am saying that you maybe don't hear her - you patronize her.  Your comments the last two days are more abot getting her to comply rather than to understand her.

and all of the great things I've done lately.  

She's not seeing it this way.  :)o you know where the disconnect is?  :)o you want to know?  Would it change anything in th way you approach all of this?

This may simply be a situation where she can't buy into the lifestyle you are offering her, or the way you are offering it to her (she may feel in 4th place), or she may be seriously ill (a relationship stability disorder), or someplace in the middle.

I don't know... . there is a lot going on here.

[HappyNihilist]

spicelover, you're in a tough place and I'm very sorry.

Respectfully, you sound like you see this as her deal/deficiency and feel she just needs to follow your game plan. Have you underestimated the sacrifice she feels she must make.

Whether she has a PD or not, she is a human who must make her own choices and way in life. If she's telling you that she's not up for this, then listen to her. Don't just override her feelings and what she is saying with what you want it to be.

Maybe you'd like to try... ? hmm... how to keep them somewhat happy lets see...

1. Be a complete doormat.

2. Never blame them for anything, even if they really are wrong.

3.  Validate every feeling they have at the cost of your own.

4. Give up all your own needs

5. do not expect to get as much as you put in

6. Do not expect to be loved like you love them

7. Do not ever disappoint them in anyway

8. Do not ever tell them they are wrong

9. treat them like children.

10. let them rage at you for no reason and take it.

Does this sound like a normal healthy relationship to you? Can you possibly be happy with this kind of person for the rest of your life?

And even if you do all of those things, they STILL won't be happy. Eventually they will despise you for doing all of those things. They will despise you for loving them, because they believe they are "broken" and unlovable, and that anyone who does put up with them -- and who sacrifices their own well-being to try to placate their childish, disordered behavior -- must have something wrong with them.

You cannot win. You will not win. It's best to cut your losses now and move on.

[spicelover]

You guys are so right.  I guess it was such a hard to swallow after seeing how great she was with the kids, and told me how much she loved them.  She was always on my case about having them over more.  Maybe it was some kind of power thing over my ex-wife.  Who knows.  I probably never will.

[Skip]

Maybe it was some kind of power thing over my ex-wife.  Who knows.  I probably never will.

Might be sun spots.  

Forget about BPD for a moment.

One thing about any relationship is the importance of being able to see what the other person is struggling with.  Its easy to see our side - not so easy to see the other persons side - especially when they conflict.

We don't want to just write it all off to "they are nuts".

Childless "stepmothers to be" face some real challenges.  All childless stepmothers to be face these.  We have CSM in this community working through the complexities, demands, and sacrifices of the role.  Read about it.  If you are particularly oblivious and unsympathetic about it all... . that could be a problem both with her and the next partner.

Add to this the domestic violence.  And in domestic violence, its not about who started it - its more about two partners engaging and escalating it.  That tends to get worse, not better with time.  What you see as "reacting to her" (throwing water on her, knocking her down, wrestling the phone away from her) will likely be seen by any women as over powering her and dangerous.  We're men - if we physically engage a women, thats all anyone (police, parents, friends, therapist) needs to know to tell her to stay away.

Your stuff.

Now if she is a highly sensitive person, has BPD traits, or qualifies as having Borderline Personalty Disorder she is going to it is going to even harder for her to navigate all the above than for the average person.   A highly sensitive person, or one with BPD traits, or qualifies as having Borderline Personalty Disorder already has deep internal troubles that can be challenging in a less complicated relationship.

Her stuff.

Everything you describe sounds like she still has a deep attachment to you but that there are things in your day to day life together that are too complicated or painful for her to deal with and/or she doesn't see you listening.  

At the same time, it sounds like you still have a deep attachment to her and can't navigate the mixed signals she is feeling and sending - I'd struggle with it too - its really painful to love someone and have them take a trial separation.

All I can say is that the more you try to manipulate her back in (dramatically withdrawing from her), fighting with her, invalidating her, making ultimatums... . the more complicated and hopeless this gets.

You can charm a person back - you can't make a logical argument for their return or manipulate them back (for long, anyway).  

She said to me that I need to make the choice to move on, and not ask her what she'd like.

This is really important.  Don't engage her in this discussion anymore. Don't do the push and pull back thing anymore.  Yes, she struggles with it and it feels like control, but it is just making this worse on many levels.

If it was me, I'd playback in my mind all the things she said, man up and understand what it is that is causing her conflict, empathize and validate her (without conditions) - and then let go of trying to control the situation.  

If she wants to see you, make that decision each time based on the how you feel about it (yes I can meet you for coffee today, no I'm busy, maybe next week).  Once you lift all the haze from both of you, you will be able to read her pretty well and decide it getting together for coffee on Tuesday is a good thing or not.

Theres a fine line between giving this room to heal and come around and her just needing you to hold her hand while she detaches. You don't want to do the latter.

Just some thoughts... . if you have any hopes of salvaging this (which seems to be what you are saying).

If you're done - there are lots of reasons (the same reasons she has, actually) to say its time to write this one off and learn from it - then the last letter can be your final word.

[spicelover]

Skip, this is the most thoughtful and insightful messages I've had from anyone (not just this forum but anywhere).  It struck a chord in me and I'm saving it.  Yes, I do want to salvage our relationship.  I love her still, and think about her a lot.  I'm so sad to think of the hurt she's experiencing, and I would do anything for a hug and kiss from her again.  I truly miss her as my best friend.

Now I'm lost.  What do I do now?  I shouldn't contact her again or it will look like I'm nuts.  One day I want to date her, the next I say I don't want her to contact me, the next I want to talk again?  I'd look like the one who needs help (I probably do right now).  I'm actually very lost. 

[Skip]

You could send her a 1 line email and say something like - "In thinking about the last three days, I owe you and apology for being so hot and cold. I'm running on pure emotion.  I need to stop that. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.  I need to learn to listen better."

Don't ask for anything (directly or indirectly), don't invite a response or discourage one, don't talk about kisses - just hang it out there that you need to listen.  It's ambiguous - if there is a next time, you'll listen (don't say this).  Unconditional apologies are the best.

Then you may want to open discussions on staying and talk through what she has been saying to you -try to understand what she is saying.  That will help to know even if this is over.

The co-parenting board might also help. There are some stepmoms there.  Also good for future.

Personal inventory might help on the DV stuff.

Do this for you.

[spicelover]

Thank you Skip.  Thank you so much.  I've sent the email, and don't expect a response.  I hope she's ok, and I know I will be.  I'll keep reading your suggestions

[spicelover]

Ok, so I had an update from the bank and emailed it through to her (all about the house), and asked if she was good with it all and I could transfer some money on Monday.  She's not replying.  I think she look the stuff I sent to her yesterday morning a little rough.  She's gone from sending multiple emails saying that she just wants things to be happy again and lots of smiley faces (still with passive agressive messages in the emails), but to just completely shut off.

I'll let her chill and wait to hear back I guess.  If nothing then the house settlement stuff will just stagnate I guess.

[spicelover]

Ok, so over the weekend I was doing fine.  Until Saturday I had to text her about some stuff to do with the house.  She called me straight away and before you know it she was attacking me.  Telling me how I was using her again etc... I got really upset and bit back.  I told her how I felt like the minute things got bad she ran.  She didn't even try to work on things with me.  Bad ending.  I left by saying let's just leave it and move on.

Meanwhile, I discovered she was texting my ex-wife this weekend asking her questions probing for information.  Also, she contacted one of my friends and really wanted to catch up with him for a drink (he's attached and she knows that and there's nothing between them at all - trust me).  And he just told her he was busy and let it at that.  I wish she'd just be out of my life.  She doesn't want me in hers at all, but she's probing around the place.  I feel like I don't know where she'll show up and I'm always on edge

[AwakenedOne]

Hi spicelover,

Sorry things didn't smooth out with your ex. Is the best way to deal with her just strictly business conversation now about the house? If she talks about the relationship you could just change the subject or just nod and smile not to engage in an argument with her. Just an option if that's how your feeling. I don't know what to make of her texting your wife. Did you ask your ex-wife whats up?

AO

[spicelover]

Thanks AO,

Yeah my ex-wife was telling me that she was asking about her situation etc... . stuff that I'd said was happening that she didn't believe.  It was like she was checking up on me and if I was telling the truth.  Very strange.

It's like she's going through the motions slowly, and thinking things through.  But after our talk on Saturday that just doesn't make sense because she was adamant things will never work between us.  She is so paranoid about everything.  It's like her mind has just gone to a whole new level and I don't know her at all

[AwakenedOne]

Thanks AO,

Yeah my ex-wife was telling me that she was asking about her situation etc... . stuff that I'd said was happening that she didn't believe.  It was like she was checking up on me and if I was telling the truth.  Very strange.

It's like she's going through the motions slowly, and thinking things through.  But after our talk on Saturday that just doesn't make sense because she was adamant things will never work between us.  She is so paranoid about everything.  It's like her mind has just gone to a whole new level and I don't know her at all

I know how that feels.

I think all you can do at this point is be nice, don't argue with her no matter what - if you can help it, keep it light, really light conversation, act like your ok (your not deeply sad), keep it businesslike, friendly and give her space. If she approaches you about giving it another try you got a decision then to make. I would not approach her on that at all considering her past and the present actions. If she doesn't ever approach you like that, still cool... .   at least no grief and arguments and hopefully she will help you with the house payments. Of course don't put your life on hold for her unless that's a gamble you want to make. Sound like a plan?

[spicelover]

I know how that feels.

I think all you can do at this point is be nice, don't argue with her no matter what - if you can help it, keep it light, really light conversation, act like your ok (your not deeply sad), keep it businesslike, friendly and give her space. If she approaches you about giving it another try you got a decision then to make. I would not approach her on that at all considering her past and the present actions. If she doesn't ever approach you like that, still cool... .   at least no grief and arguments and hopefully she will help you with the house payments. Of course don't put your life on hold for her unless that's a gamble you want to make. Sound like a plan?

Yes it does.  Thanks AO.  I've never taken a breakup this bad.  It's been 7 weeks and feels like yesterday.  Although my memories are fading of happiness and being replaced with all of this constant sadness.

The thing that hurts the most is how she views me now.  She's made out to all of her friends and family (who all think she's so lovely - as would anyone who met her - she's actually a beautiful happy person 99% of the time) that I was just a horror during the entire relationship and how toxic things were.  The whole while was telling me how happy I made her.  It's really shaken me up to the core.  I'm questioning myself now every day and feel like a bad guy.  I am beginning to hate myself which I've not felt like this ever.