Is it possible to depersonalize BPD in a son or daughter?

[MammaMia]

I was just reading about depersonalizing BPD in relationships in another post.

Question:  How does one "depersonalize" BPD when the person affected is a son or daughter?

This is an infinitely more complex issue.   Is it even possible?

Any ideas? 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

I am not sure waht this means... . can you explain more?

[MammaMia]

When a relationship goes bad, it is possible to emotionally disconnect and walk away at some point. 

When dealing with adult BPD children, I am unsure it is possible to disconnect entirely due to the emotional bonds we have for them.  We can go NC but do we ever really stop thinking about them, their disorder, and the "what ifs" associated with mental illness, even as adults?

We can become un-enmeshed, but everything is so much more complex than a traditional relationship.

Perhaps only parents with adult BPD children really understand the conflicts here.  I guess I was just thinking out loud. 

[jellibeans]

I am not sure that is possible... . to totally disconnect from a child... . I don't think I could do it.

I read some of the post about relationship and their breakups and I kind of thought about that... . how although hard they can walk away from the relationship and move on... . that is why there is so much pain for epole with adult children... . it really is totaly different and the pain so deep. I guess it more of learning how to live with that hurt and that pain.

[MammaMia]

Exactly.  I understand BPD relationships and breakups are extremely painful and often devastate nons... . but perhaps they do not fully realize how fortunate they are.  Parents with BPD children face an entirely different reality.

Thank you.  Take care.

[PaulaJeanne]

Oh Mamma Mia, Do I know how you feel!

Even when my daughter is at her absolute worst, she gets that look on her face. It's a total disregulation look that only a mother could love (or recognize)... . I worry about her.

There was a time when she was 16, 17, 18... . I was waiting for the phone call to tell me she was dead somewhere. I tried to numb myself. Wine, xanax,and during the day throwing myself into my work. That's how I got through it. But I have been unable to depersonalize. I don't think it's possible for a mother to do that. What you said

Exactly.  I understand BPD relationships and breakups are extremely painful and often devastate nons... . but perhaps they do not fully realize how fortunate they are.  Parents with BPD children face an entirely different reality.

Someone once mentioned to me that I can't even die in peace. That's for sure!

[MammaMia]

PaulaJeanne

Thank you. 

[jeb]

To MammaMia,

Sometimes when a BPDadult child chooses to be NC for an indefinite period of time I have to wonder how long I want to keep bearing the pain.  When will tthey come back if they come back and will you have finally come to some kind of peace with the situation just to have everything come unglued again?  That is my situation at the moment and although she says she needs to work through her issues and that she does love me, I don't know if she really understands what love is.

I know for me the more time that goes by, the more I will become disengaged if only for my own sanity.  But as others have said they are your children and how can one completely disconnect from someone you have either given birth to or adopted and loved for such a long time despite everything they put us through.  I don't think there is a one size fits all answer.

[MammaMia]

Jeb

Thank you.

[qcarolr]

For me, even in the midst of a desire to put a force field between DD27 and myself when she is in her worst state, there is a connection that will always be there. For me, it is a practice of learning to accept that hurt into my life in some way that allows me to feel the good parts of each day. Radical Acceptance, a DBT skill, has been helpful for me.

This question has been on my mind, in my heart, a lot the past few days. As time goes by with DD putting effort into making it through each day of her work release program, I can sense she is getting worn my this effort. I find myself starting to put my shield up prepared for a cycle down.

From a brain-based perspective, I think as parents there is a built in connection to a child. Perhaps there are some who do not form a healthy bond. For each of us parents that are here seeking support, we have a strong bond with our child(ren).

We each find a way to live within this. There is no one answer. I am so very grateful bpdfamily is here for me. A safe place to share whatever I need to say.

qcr

[lever.]

You put this well qcr. I have worked on radical acceptance and I have tried to train myself not to react from emotional mind. At times I feel as if I have become more emotionally detached from my daughter.

However she will always be my child and there will always be a bond. I will always hurt to some degree when she hurts.

The only other person I feel the same way about is her sister- hence the horrible feeling of divided loyalties when there are difficulties between them.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Kate4queen]

I think I depersonalize by taking myself out of the equation. I try very hard not to let my son know how much he hurts me with the things he says, I try not to take things personally, I don't defend myself anymore or get into spiral pointless arguments about the past. I try and deal with the issue he is raging about, strip it down to its essentials and offer the practical help I am able to give him within my own personal boundaries.

Of course that makes me sound like a saint. That doesn't mean I don't have anxiety over every communication, spend hours writing emails I'll never send or feeling sick with anxiety. But I've realized that even when he's not raging he's still trying to reel me in by other means and I just can't do that anymore. I'm emotionally spent. So I do what I can and leave it at that.

[hopeangel]

I know this pain so well, we can never detach but we can offer ourselves as much healing and self-care, kindness and forgiveness as we can.

The thing is these things are actually ESSENTIAL to do for the good of our relationship with our pwBPD not least because we need to survive strongly in order to support them AND because they very often have deep-seated pain and shame about the way they treat us after the event, whether they show it or not!

Imagine being unable to help yourself destroy your loved ones emotionally - how much shame would that induce in you - if they were able to self-care and be resilient and still be strong for you whilst setting boundaries regarding what they would not let you do to them, how much would that relieve your burden of shame and help you feel a little more supported and free?

They need us to restore ourselves and not drown!

[Gloria3260]

I am at the very beginning of my journey with my ds16, yet I understand exactly what you are saying.  When my son is saying terrible things to me I disengage from the situation and focus on how my reaction will help or hurt him in his present state of mind.  I love him, but at that moment, I don't care about the words, or the hurt. I remove myself from the situation as his mother.  I treat him as if he were a stranger whose words can't hurt me because at that moment, he is a stranger to me.  It is like giving CPR  to someone who falls inf ront of you.  You help them because it is the humane thing to do, not because they are dear to you.

[pessim-optimist]

I think that many parents contemplate doing this when the pain gets too deep, and they are at the very end of their coping rope.

I think that some might even make the decision to disconnect and be done, because at the time that seems like a logical and tempting proposition.

After a while though, they realize that the bond is part of their soul and it just isn't possible to 'divorce' your child... .

My husband has asked me a couple of times: "Is there a 'Leaving' forum for parents?" When I said: "no", he asked "why?" and I said "Just wait a few days, you'll know why." And sure enough, after several days, he said: "You are right, she is my daughter, I will always love her, no matter what... . "

[qcarolr]

I have been on a roller-coaster of detach-connect-detach-connect for so very long it seems to be my 'normal'. It is so unhealthy for me and everyone else in my family. I am so searching for a way to 'be' more stable within myself while accepting my DD27's roller-coaster life running in circles around me. As my dh has become more open about his true feelings with our family, he agrees with this description.

I know deep in my soul that my attachment cannot be severed with my DD, dh has shared his common belief with this. When we try to detach we are miserable. DD continues to reach out to us for anything we are willing to offer. Her requests are not unreasonable - if she was a 'normal' kid we would help her out with rides and food. She is now very appreciative and expresses her sense of shame at not being able to contribute to the family. Why do we feel compelled to deny ourselves the connection here?

DD is currently in a work release program as part of a sentence for multiple misdemeanor cases - DUI, harassment and no-contact order violations, shoplifting. She has been failing at her bond/probation/treatment court ordered for over 2 years now. She does not feel at fault in any of these charges (except the shoplifting) which makes it even harder to comply. Drug use and toxic friends have also been contributing factors. She is now doing her best to comply with the work release, she is the most stable that I have ever experienced with her (no drugs or alcohol; new chronic health issues she wants to heal; new desire to move her life in better direction). She is still drawn to a high need to have a man in her life, though hard to manage this r/s with both of them in jail program.

I hear "giving her rides, etc. is enabling - stop doing it"; "you are obsessed with your D and need to make space in your life for other things"; "don't sacrifice all your savings to help her, she will fail anyway"; etc.

We are raising our gd8 since she was baby. DD can no longer live in our home. We cannot afford to pay rent for  her. There is no affordable housing in our area after severe flooding last fall with great loss of property, and she will not qualify for about 5 years staying out of legal trouble for public assistance. She has lived homeless mostly past 5 years, even when technically living in our home (gone 3-4 days a week) which has been very de-stablizing for her.

It is unconscionable for dh and I at this point to know DD will be living homeless after she gets off work release in September and all the hard effort she is putting in will dissolve - if she does not have any other options to choose. She deserves a place to live that does not use 100% of her income.

Gotta go - gd wants to something without me on computer.

qcr

[chooselove]

I think de-personalizing may be most important when it's a son or daughter because the powerful desire we have to help them is what keeps them able to both hurt us and use us, over and over. There are spouses who would put up with this but eventually many of them move on and once they mourn the relationship can usually start anew.  As a parent we don't have that option of replacing the child relationship with someone else.  I'm only recently "detached" from my adult daughter who is near 40. I couldn't have done it before now.  I wasn't emotionally able, nor was I willing.  But that changed this year due to many things, primarily because she was finally in a place where I felt she could live safely and also because I reached an awareness that I had to quit allowing her back in only to have things erupt in yet another hurtful rage. However, detachment is not the same as not caring deeply for her, as she will be in my thoughts forever and I know in some way, I will remain in hers, too.  With past relationships, once I got over them, I hardly thought of the person again and would feel gratitude that they were out of my life, even if they had broken my heart, because I came to grow and realize how we were not right for each other.  I don't anticipate that ever happening with feelings for my daughter. I will always carry hope and yearning for reconciliation and I hold powerful faith that if it can't happen while on Earth then it will happen in the hereafter when we have shed our worldly hangups and experience profound forgiveness and understanding for each other.   Right now she cannot hear that I love her.  She cannot even tolerate the words and holds her hands over her ears if I try to say them to her. It means to much to her to continue to mistrust me and to believe what the thoughts in her head are saying.  If I try to get close to her then I'm manipulating, she says, and if I detach, then I'm cold-hearted, she also says.  There is nothing at all I can do. I have come at her from all angles, even giving in and confessing that I am all the things she accuses me of, in dire efforts to mend things.  All that did was give her "evidence" to promote her  stories about me.   God, I love her and miss her... . but there's an essence of peace in letting her go now and I hope it lingers because I don't want to go back to that desperate longing and sense of guilt and responsibility for her life and well being. My personal life, my marriage and my extended family have paid such a price and my mother worried about me in the years before she passed away. I'd like to look toward "Heaven" and say, "Hey, Mom, I'm okay now, don't worry," and continue to think positive for my daughter, to believe that she will be okay, too.  But it's imperative to de-personalize in the process, it seems. 

[qcarolr]

I met with a friend who is a mentor/sponsor for me. The one thing she said that really sticks with me today is that the desires of my heart for my DD are OK. Of course I want her to be OK, be safe, have healthy relationships, be well... . There are very few people around me that can acknowledge that my deep love for my DD is OK and not 'harmful' for me.

Then I can better able think about how powerless I am in her life, choose to find ways to take better care of myself - in my other relationships, in finding and doing things I get joy from, in taking care of my personal needs and health... .

When I am able to get these in balance - in daily practice - then I can better discern which of my Dd's expressed needs fit what I am able to give, and keep in balance.

It is very tricky. I am very fortunate to have this time right now when DD seems more stable, appreciative, self-reflective, putting effort into each day.

I try to keep my chin up. Stop looking at my feet. Let the smile show on my face when I see so much good around me.

Only with DD living away from our home is any balance possible.  I am coming to accept this as reality. I cannot know how her life will look any more than she can. So I am committed to stop trying to predict the future. What a stubborn old pattern to change - to replace with something better. Mindfulness, centering prayer, staying in the moment as much as possible are all good tools.

Not sure I understand the work 'depersonalize' as it applies here. Maybe I will have to look it up.

qcr

[qcarolr]

depersonalize (dɪˈpɜːsnəˌlaɪz) or depersonalise

vb (tr)

1. to deprive (a person, organization, system, etc) of individual or personal qualities; render impersonal

2. (Psychology) to cause (someone) to lose his sense of personal identity

[C19: from de- + personal + -ize]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

I really think this topic is discussing the concept of 'not taking things so personally'. This is really different than what the word 'depersoanlize' means.  There have been periods in my life when I have been in a 'depersonalized state' of dissociation. I believe it is part of my bipolarII issues and chronic stress - it is an escape from reality. Maybe this is what came up for me using this term in this discussion.

If I could choose a title it would be something like "Is it possible to take behaviors of my son or daughter with BPD less personally?". Just my humble thoughts.

qcr

[MammaMia]

What I meant by depersonalizing BPD is to recognize the behavior as a symptom of the disorder.  It is created by an abnormal thought process, not a cognitive thought process.

Once we accept that the hurtful rants and bad behavior are not personal attacks, we can learn to invalidate them. However, even after doing that, we often continue to feel a sense of illogical pain and a desire for normalcy that is not possible.

Are we creating some of our own pain?

[chooselove]

Yes, depersonalize is that to me, too... . not letting the shame or guilt coming at me have an affect on me by believing things she's saying about me are true.  I have observed and had it pointed out to me by my therapist that she is projecting her own shame on me and it's very interesting to listen to what she says because it gives great insight into how she feels about herself.  What she's doing is shedding the shame by placing it on me so that she can feel better and not have to face it.  Very sad, actually, because we love them so much and hate to see them thinking like this... . but we preserve ourselves to not be led into the mud puddle of damaging emotions. I've taken the shame on before and it is devastating.   These days I feel pretty good other than the occasional twinge I feel when I think about the people who believe her stories about me.  But even that has become easier to shake off.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[MammaMia]

chooselove

EXACTLY!  The only way to protect ourselves emotionally is to understand that their anger is NOT  directed at us personally but, as you said, a reflection of their feelings about themselves.   I also agree, that these projections provide insight into what they are internalizing.

Once we learn to acknowledge this, and not react negatively, the better equipped we are to cope with the abusive language and insults.  We cannot allow them to push our buttons and make us feel inferior and shameful.  

To make this work, requires that we separate THEIR PERCEPTIONS from what WE KNOW to be reality and remind ourselves daily that their perceptions are not honest or true to anyone but them.  They are a symptom of a devastating disorder.  We may not be able to change how they view us, but we can choose not to let it affect the way we see ourselves.

[qcarolr]

To make this work, requires that we separate THEIR PERCEPTIONS from what WE KNOW to be reality and remind ourselves daily that their perceptions are not honest or true to anyone but them.  They are a symptom of a devastating disorder.  We may not be able to change how they view us, but we can choose not to let it affect the way we see ourselves.

This helps me understand this so much better. I still struggle to not make my DD's problems into my problems and then I feel so powerless as I do not have the ability to solve the problems - they do not belong to me! I have to step off this spiral. I think this is what my T was trying to tell me today. I have to continue to try for a more peaceful mind - mindfulness. Wonder why this is so hard for me right now?

qcr