what this therapist said shocked me

[truthbeknown]

I recently engaged into coaching with a therapist that says she specializes in BPD.   She is in another state and her services are for coaching online.   I hired her as  a coach because she told me she doesn't do therapy over the phone but could help coach me in dealing with a BPD person.   After spending a few sessions giving her the background we started to get into some of my issues.  I got some good advise from her the first month we worked together but our last sessions have me concerned.  

First, a little background.  I have struggled career wise and financially since the divorce (3 years ago).  The damage and the poor choices i made back then are still affecting me now.  I was a professional health practitioner and basically let my license lapse while i was still married to my ex.   I just didn't stick up for myself back then and gave my power away.  Fast forward to the present, I have been unable to get my life back on track financially.  To get my license back i would need to have a certain amount of money (which i am lacking) and the company that had given the subcontract of work to the people that employed me terminated the contract with our subcontractor at the end of December of last year.  To make matters worse, i started getting sick.  I thought it was all the stress of no job etc.  However, i discovered that the home that i was renting was infested with mold and my health and my cats health quickly declined.  I knew I needed to get out of that place and I had  a friend two states away that said I could come live with her while I got myself healthy again.   She had a friend that could keep my cat.  Unfortunately, my friend has now exhibited signs of what my ex wife used to do to me when we lived together.  I want to get out of this situation but I'm broke and trying to save up money but the flow is slow and tideous.  I want to move out and get my own place as soon as i can.  I had hoped to see if i could get my license in this state but it won't be any easier than back in my home state.  

Meanwhile, the coach/counselor that i am speaking with told me that she thinks i've just traded one problem (that with the mother of my children) for another.  And therefore, she suggested that if i want to be a dad and that is the most important thing to me that I try to talk to my exwife about moving back in with her. She basically was saying that i "should" until the kids were 18 (my youngest is 9). I told her that I thought i could do if for some time maybe like 6 months but that it could be hard on the kids once i move back out (not to mention the confrontations my ex and I have the potential for).  She said that the body of evidence doesn't support that divorces are good for kids and that as a parent who co-created these children, i don't get to decide if i want to put myself first or take of my needs first and lead this bachlor life.   I swear I heard her say something  about "being entitled to be a bachlor" and after her speech about what we as parents of divorced children get to do or don't get to do I confronted her about that. She said she didn't use that word and i wish i had recorded the call. I asked her if she feels that it is better for two people who are in conflict to live together than to live apart?  I asked her if she thinks that I would rather be some "swinging" partner because she made reference to being a single divorced dad as one who might enjoy the bachlor life.   Now, I do admit that last week i explained to her that my ex has let some man come into her life and my childs life and he comes over and cooks for them and does other things.  She replaced another friend who used to do that when i was married to her.  When her friend found a new boyfriend, my ex casted her aside and found this man.  He is a gay man who has a husband.  That to me is not a problem. However, i did mention to the counselor/coach that he is overly involved with my kids etc and seems to be there alot.  Therefore, she is feeling that as a healthy parent I should sacrifice myself and my needs in order to protect the children.   I am questioning this because if that had worked in the past I would have stayed in the marriage.  She asked me for divorce, continued to devalue me etc.  I might be able to influence some choices that are better for the kids if i lived there but I can't see staying there long term.   Also, in regard to the coach/counselor, I have never heard of coaches and counselors giving advise or telling a client what they should do.  When i confronted her on this, she said something to the effect that she will help me get whatever i want.  Because i told her that my identity  was linked to that of being a good father she has taken this approach with me. She said, if i were to tell her that it was more important to have a career then be with my children then i she will help me with that.  I felt like that was a double bind!

 My question to any of you out there:  doens't her reaction and advise seem black and white? here i am trying to get help with an ex that has BPD and i feel that the solutions I'm being offered are black and white. She told me i could either choose to pursue a thriving career or go back to live with my ex and be the best dad I can be and be there to protect the kids but that i couldn't have both!    I'm in shock right now.  Please comment.

[GaGrl]

Yes, I'll certainly comment.

I'm a certified executive coach.  A principle of professional coaching is that the coach is not there to "tell" but rather to pose the questions and scenarios that help the coachee come to his or her conclusion.

So in most of the schools of coaching with which I'm familiar, a coach would not settle on two diametrically opposed positions and put the coachee in a position of choosing -- and the coachee would have come to the decision as to what the various options would be, not the coach.  The coach would then be (again) ASKING questions that help the coachee evaluate options.

[Turkish]

It sounds like this coach has let her own ideological agendas trump her professionalism.

In my case, I felt it better to be apart, rather than have my uBPDx try to mirror her parents' dysfunctional r/s out in front of our children. Then they would have a good chance of growing up like her, or at least thinking many unacceptable behaviors and abuses were normal. I did it for me, and I also did it for my kids.

Your wife said she wanted the divorce. You removed youself from the situation for your own mental health. Your coach's snide comments about the "bachelor life" were just that, also demeaning. Would a bachelor life loving man engage in coaching like this?

I'm sorry for your fiancial situation and living conditions. Hopefully you can get those back on track with time. The least thing you need in dealing with this is to be morally judged by a professional who is supposed to be helping you, not controlling you life.

[clljhns]

Hi truthbeknown,

I was intrigued by the title to your post. I don't normally respond to posts on this board, as I am not in this situation. However, I would second what Gagrl said. I would imagine that a coach would follow the same protocol as a therapist. I could be wrong, as I have never had a coach before. I will tell you that my therapist NEVER told me what decisions I should make. She would ask questions and we would explore the options given the answer to my question. She always asked me what felt right for me to do, and would validate my feelings and situation.

This sounds like a terrible and sticky situation that you are currently in. Do you have any family or close friends that live in the same state as your child? I also am wondering if there are any services that you can tap into to receive help in that state. One thing that I am thinking about is a homeless shelter. I know this is not what you want, but there are services available to help get you back on your feet. Many homeless shelters assign caseworkers to those living in the shelter and can make connections for you that you may not be aware of . You might also consider a live-in aide position with an elderly person. Sometimes you don't have to be certified, and with your background this might be a good fit. You might also explore the possibility of a local church in the community where your child lives. I don't know if this would not fit with your belief system, but if it does, they might be able to offer some assistance as well.

I wish all the best.  

[truthbeknown]

thanks for the comments. I feel bad enough about being in my situation.  I didnt need additional judgement. She told me if I was mad at her to say so. I wasnt mad just shocked at her lack of boundaries. I don't think that is something one can explain to another.

lots to think about.   

[Narellan]

She's crossed some boundaries for sure. I wouldn't go back. Engage another psychologist if u can. In Aust our GP can recommend someone and you are entitled to ten free visits per year. I don't know if that helps you but I'd definitely look into an alternative x

[momtara]

I don't think what she said made any sense.

Why move back in with a BPD ex wife?  She could file a restraining order, make false charges, cause you 24 hour emotional stress and fear, etc., etc.

That's just bizarre.

The standard advice is that two parents who are not fighting and live apart are better for a kid than parents in conflict.

Moving closer to your child might benefit the child or you, but you don't have to move in with your ex.

I'm speechless.

[truthbeknown]

Here perspective is that by living in the house where my small children are gives me the chance to protect them more.  She's afraid of what kind of environment they live in if my ex is allowing a male friend to come into the house and essentially be a care-giver.  Even though he is a gay man, she feels this is not optimal for the kids.  Also, i told her that my ex has taken sleeping pills in the past, left medication lying around and the kids have to cook for themselves.  I agree that this is NOT optimal, but I can't see staying there for a long term situation.  The reason she encouraged this was because i told her that i lost my job, got sick and now i'm staying with a friend (a woman) and suddenly I was starting to get similar behavior from this woman I'm am friends with as my ex wife (albeit not as bad).  So i think she felt that if I had to choose between the two I "should" go back with my ex. so that I can at least be around my kids and protect them.   Now, while i am open to taking in this information and there are some valid points to consider, the way she framed it and told me that i don't have a choice was very disconcerting to me.   

When I lived in the state where my kids are, I saw them 1/2 time.  They were constantly being manipulated against me because i had a different household and my ex was jealous and controlling of my time with them.   This therapist/coach initially told me that being out of state was probably better because it would take the stress of the kids going back and forth.   Now her tune has changed because we talked about my ex wife being a horder and not having control over things.  It seems like the coach goes back and forth and takes extremes so i'm losing faith in her.  I also felt like she was trying to make me feel narcassistic for being out here.  However, the decision to live with this friend was out of need and some extenuating circumstances.  It's not like I met some woman online and decided to move away from my kids!  I got sick, lost my rented home due to mold and this friend was the only one who was able to put me up with my cat.  If I had the money to stay in a hotel near my kids, I would have.   So I feel she is all over the place and then started to tell me it was because this is what i wanted.  Gosh, felt like I was talking to my ex.  I have a high sensitivity for being manipulated or for the facts to be manipulated at this point in my life. 

[Narellan]

I feel for you so much truth be known. When your kids are little every part of you screams out to protect them. I lived with my pi polar ex husband for 15 years longer than I should have. My third beautiful son was unplanned and I cried for a week when I found out I was pregnant. No one could understand why I was iver roughy with sadness, but I knew I was trapped for many years now with a man I was afraid of. And I really thought he was too unstable to take care of them. So I stayed until my baby was 13 years old. And then I started to get really sick, lost weight couldn't function in that home. It took everything I had to end the marriage. I'm 2 years out of it now and my boys are living with me, I bought a house and they stay with their dad routinely. They are old enough now to see things for what they are.

I don't have any advice for you, except to say I feel your health will suffer more if u move back in. Can u try to get some government assistance and rent a place somewhere close to your babies? If she is so unwell, can you suggest she needs a break and maybe she can move to her gay friends? And u move back into the family home? You do have a right to be the primary caretaker if your children. I refused to leave the family home and managed to get him to leave to give us all some space. This meant I could save some money and get on my feet a bit. Take care xx

[momtara]

Well, if it's a lesser of two evils, then maybe I could see that as a suggestion, but not as a very good one.

"Also, i told her that my ex has taken sleeping pills in the past, left medication lying around and the kids have to cook for themselves."

Sounds more like you should start documenting, building evidence, and try to eventually make a case for more custody.  I know it's not easy to prove this stuff when out of the house. 

Then again... . maybe that's a reason to move back in for a short time.  You could carry a tape recorder and document some of this stuff.  But if it's going to confuse the kids, or make her think you're back permanently, I don't know.

[truthbeknown]

Momtara,

yes, my concern is always for the children even though my ex does her best to convey otherwise.   If I were to go back there and then eventually leave again it could create a sort of trauma for my younger kids again.  I know a collegue in another state that went through a similar thing.  The difference is that his exwife is very outwardly disordered. In other words she would be the type to claim untrue thing, bring strange men into the house for sexual proclivities etc.  He has been unsuccessful in getting custody despite all the evidence.  Therefore, I suppose I feel sometimes that it won't make any difference.  The court systems are broken and I'm just doing the best I can to see my kids, get my life back on track etc.  The coach that i had referred to initially told me that this was a good thing for both me and the kids so that I could get a break from the "war zone".  It's so ironic that now she wants me to go back into the war zone.  I wish i was able to protect my children from this illness (that's how i look at it) but it is so hard.  If it hadn't been for the children I think it would be easier to repair this and move on. I could except that I attracted this type of person because of who I am.  However, it's hard to watch my kids get hurt so much, be a constant target for abuse and now experience my older children being swayed to believe the lies she creates.  I might consider seeing if I could stay with my ex on weekends when i go back to visit in order to collect evidence.  However, my ex is very deviously smart and will probably be on guard most of the time i would be there.  For example, she hords and there isn't a place in her room where you can see the floor but I'm sure she would stay in her room or lock the door so i couldn't go in if I stayed there.  Lots of things to think about.  I'm taking my time to digest all the options before i choose.

[ForeverDad]

Here perspective is that by living in the house where my small children are gives me the chance to protect them more... .

When I lived in the state where my kids are, I saw them 1/2 time.

Hmm, rather than moving back in with ex (recycle, backwards move) it would be prudent to move back to the area where you had been living and get back to that 50% time and then work back to getting your licensing again.

Doctors, therapists, and yes even coaches, come in all flavors and level of competency, perceptiveness, experience, etc.  It sounds like this one is not a good one for you, or at least the concept of returning to the relationship.  Why?  As already mentioned, the problem when dealing with BPD relationships is staying too long.  For her to recommend going back could be a backwards step back.  For example, you said ex caused you to drop your licensing, going back would not resolve that problem, just prolong it.

Staying (or going back) "for the children" is not a solution.  With the current order - or even back in the BPD den - you can't be with them 100% of the time, you have to sleep, work, etc, so there will always be times you can't be there to protect them.

As my son's GAL told me when a long court action was wrapping up, "Because of you he will be okay."  Yes, your ex has behaviors that can't be ignored, but wouldn't moving back to the area and resuming your parenting time be better overall than going back to her?

[truthbeknown]

Forever dad,

Yes, i believe moving closer would be beneficial and that is my goal. Right now I'm in a huge financial crisis because i lost my job and got sick at the same time.  I am applying for jobs in Minnesota and Illinois in order to get some income coming in.  If i have to stay in Minnesota for the summer and go back every other weekend that would be a good start.  However, I definately would like to be closer to them.  I still need some support/coaching help because when i was sharing time with the ex, she was sabotaging their time with me.  It became very stressful for my kids and therefore me.  It seems  like her goal is to make it as difficult as possible to share the time with the kids. One example is that she would not make my son be accountable for his homework while she had them on a weekend and then on Monday and Tuesday night with me he was spending all his time catching up.  She was really good at getting him to associate being with me as negative because he would have to do all his homework at my place.  That's just one example but the sabotaging events like that go on and on. 

So while being closer is the goal, i would still have to get help in dealing with my stress and my childrens' stress over such events.

[ForeverDad]

It seems  like her goal is to make it as difficult as possible to share the time with the kids.

It seems?  Sadly, it's a typical pattern (in acting-out disorders such as BPD, etc) to obstruct and/or sabotage the other parent's parenting.

The peer support here is helpful though being anonymous, remote and written limits it a bit.  Some have visited Al-Anon for support as well.  Not counselors or therapists, just 'survivors' but it is helpful, I've heard.  Also, many counselors offer sliding scale fees.  Check out the local resources too, often local and state agencies can provide inexpensive counseling services in addition to jobs resources.

There is light at the end of the tunnel.  Give recovery time.  Meanwhile, keep working on income and employability.  Every little bit helps you to reach your goals.

[truthbeknown]

Thanks

[Skip]

I recently engaged into coaching with a therapist that says she specializes in BPD.   She is in another state and her services are for coaching online.   I hired her as  a coach because she told me she doesn't do therapy over the phone but could help coach me in dealing with a BPD person.

You may want to give thought to the bait and switch and what it means... . why would someone let yo know that they are a therapist but will only engage you as a "coach"?  The likely answer is to bypass state laws and review boards and professional oversight that are in place to protect you.  Treating BPD is a highly specialized practice area - there are not very many therapists with professional experience in this area, and most are PhD or MD's or in specialized practices and often with close University affiliations.

Have you seen this thread?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=161211.30

Moving back with an ex-spouse is certainly not conventional advice unless it is something you brought to the table.  

if i want to be a dad and that is the most important thing to me that I try to talk to my exwife about moving back in with her. She basically was saying that i "should" until the kids were 18 (my youngest is 9). I told her that I thought i could do if for some time maybe like 6 months but that it could be hard on the kids once i move back out (not to mention the confrontations my ex and I have the potential for).  

Do you want to play a major role in your children's lives, or are you starting to let go of that or simply too overwhelmed to do it?  That may be the first thing to consider here.  Moving out of state was a significant move.  How do you feel about it?  As ForeverDad suggests, if you want to lay a major role in their lives, going back to 50% as soon as possible is important.  If at a distance, having quality time is important including regular contact.

But what is it that you want?

This article is interesting - Why Fathers Give Up

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=92549.0

[ennie]

 She said that the body of evidence doesn't support that divorces are good for kids and that as a parent who co-created these children, i don't get to decide if i want to put myself first or take of my needs first and lead this bachlor life.  

I just wanted to comment on this part.  The statistics are that children are most well adjusted as adults with parents who stay together in a marriage that is not high conflict; that the next best thing is having divorce parents with at least one home that is not high conflict; that married in a high conflict situation is next best; and that worst is high conflict in two homes with divorced parents.  Who knows how much this says about divorce versus the nature of living with high conflict people and their likelihood of staying together!  It could just be that the most conflictual people tend to get divorced, and that the conflict is what is hard on kids. 

The point here is that the literature does not support you staying with your ex "for the children" if there is a lot of conflict.  It supports what is the least amount of conflict, and if you can do that in the same home, that is best for the kids.  If you cannot, it is not best. 

The other part of this is that kids perceive conflict even if one person is responding passively.  So my DH was hit and verbally abused in front of the kids when he was married to his BPD ex, and though he just avoided this behavior and tried to be "nice" most of the time, the kids still show signs of being exposed to high conflict, and talk about their parents fighting, even projecting more on their dad.  I was not there, so I do not know what really happened, but BPD mom has told me that he never hit her or hurt her. 

I cannot find the article that compares the four scenarios, with level of conflict and divorce as variables, but here is a helpful article: 

www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-divorce-bad-for-children/

I think the overall point is that recent research shows that high conflict is harmful to kids, and if you can figure out a way to create a home that does not have a lot of conflict for your children, that is the best thing you can do. 

Good luck!

[ForeverDad]

Though not specifically commented on in this thread, your example as parent now will have a deep impact on the children in the future.  It may not seem so at first but likely years from now when the children are grown, choosing their own relationships and starting their own families, they'll remark to you how your example benefited them.

What example is that?  That you did not tolerate or appease (wimp out) when facing conflictual, dysfunctional or unhealthy behaviors and patterns of behavior, that you would not be a party to it even if it meant ending the marriage and setting up your own separate but stable home to parent in.  Sadly, considering the likelihood that 'staying' or 'returning' means living life as an appeaser, doormat, whipping boy, there just isn't a benefit to living as parent on another's dictatorial terms and whims.  You need to set boundaries for behaviors, what is acceptable and what is not.  You need to be able to help the children see why you have boundaries.  You need to validate them when they do make insightful observations and not invalidate them just to avoid scenes or problems.  Your example may not be perfect but it should be balanced, considerate yet firm, focused on the long term and the future, in short, a good example overall.

If you stay or return to your spouse - as things are now - what example would that be for the children, day in and day out?  How would they know what real normal is without living it with you at least part of their lives away from the chaos, unpredictable moods and conflicting demands?

[Turkish]

Though not specifically commented on in this thread, your example as parent now will have a deep impact on the children in the future.  It may not seem so at first but likely years from now when the children are grown, choosing their own relationships and starting their own families, they'll remark to you how your example benefited them.

What example is that?  That you did not tolerate or appease (wimp out) when facing conflictual, dysfunctional or unhealthy behaviors and patterns of behavior, that you would not be a party to it even if it meant ending the marriage and setting up your own separate but stable home to parent in.  Sadly, considering the likelihood that 'staying' or 'returning' means living life as an appeaser, doormat, whipping boy, there just isn't a benefit to living as parent on another's dictatorial terms and whims.  You need to set boundaries for behaviors, what is acceptable and what is not.  You need to be able to help the children see why you have boundaries.  You need to validate them when they do make insightful observations and not invalidate them just to avoid scenes or problems.  Your example may not be perfect but it should be balanced, considerate yet firm, focused on the long term and the future, in short, a good example overall.

If you stay or return to your spouse - as things are now - what example would that be for the children, day in and day out?  How would they know what real normal is without living it with you at least part of their lives away from the chaos, unpredictable moods and conflicting demands?

Though my uBPDx had already effectively ended our r/s by cheating and not stopping, this is precisely why I "technically" ended it and kicked her out (though it took 4 months). She was mirroring her parents' dysfunctional marriage, and I let myself be wrapped up in it: a serially cheating, neglectful and somewhat abusive Father, and the long suffering, co-dependent mother who stayed "for the children." She bemoaned the fact that she was like her mother to anyone who would listen, but in reality, it was the opposite. It's better apart, with one more stable household (mine), so the kids didn't pick up and mirror the dysfunctional dynamic later in life. Whatever happens at their mom's house with her boyfriend I cannot control, but I can control my home and my relationship with the kids, and set the example of stability.

[truthbeknown]

Makes sense. My plan now is to get a job that gets me back on my feet. If i get it in the current state, i will save up to go back to the state where the kids are at.  I think that coach/therapist may know the definition of BPD but she has not lived with it or has enough experience to reflect what you guys know and are able to comment on.  I appreciate all of your imput and will keep you updated on my situation.