her "monster" quality to me as a child

[BabeRuthless]

I am curious about others' experience and feedback of BPD parents -- especially moms/grandmothers/other female caregivers -- whose behavior or personality may be perceived by victims as "evil" or demonic in some way, or "witch-like." It's hard to bring this up, as these words can be loaded and somewhat vague. But one of my most disturbing memories of my BPD grandmother was of her intense, unrelenting, destructive fear/terror, rage, hate, and prejudice... . and her "monster" quality to me as a child. I was so very frightened and intimidated that I never pictured her as having had parents or been a child herself... . She was a "monster," who seemed to have sprung, wholy formed, from... . where? I remember lying in bed at night believing my heart would stop.

When I have tried to describe this to other family members, they ask, "What did she actually DO to hurt you?" I am then so confused and upset that I can hardly respond. And I'm a competent, functioning adult!

Did anyone else have an experience like this?

[Lise]

When I have tried to describe this to other family members, they ask, "What did she actually DO to hurt you?" I am then so confused and upset that I can hardly respond. And I'm a competent, functioning adult!

Did anyone else have an experience like this?

In short: Yes!

I think that you are describing a very common issue, that many of us would recognize: The silent terrorizing, where it's not so much what is said, but how it's said. It's not so much the act, but the look in her eyes while she does it. It's not so much the birthday card, but the message written between the lines, etc.

This is part of what makes it so difficult to pinpoint the abuse and stand up to it, it can so easily be dismissed a a misunderstanding, and you're left doubting your own sanity.

It's so hard to describe to others why a seemingly harmless phrase can send chills down our spine, and why it's so hard to defend oneself when attempts to safeguard one's boundaries can so easily be misconstrued as overly dramatic behavior.

[HappyChappy]

BabeRuthless - sounds very familiar. Read around the subject and it'll start to explain itself.

With BPD there is a chategory called "Witch". As per the evil thing - Naraccists & BPD don't intend to be evil, but they simply don't care about anyone but themselves. Their lack of empathy allowes them to be evil without remourse. Their view is that it's wrong for us to do this, but they are superior so it's total exceptable for them.

Looking at your gran as a 6 year old may help. 6 year old Kids love to scare each other, it gives them a sence of control. BPD often use your room 101 against you. The doubting your sanity thing - this is purposly caused by "gas lighting". BPD make you doubt yourself on purpose (contol again). As for others not seeing this, or saying it's just words. BPD fear being caugth out, so they hide their abuse well (unless in a rage). Pycological abuse is easier to hide, that a smack in the face. If other don't see it - this is because denial is a normal way to deal with such behavior. After all, we're all taught bload is thicker than water, and honour your elders etc... . etc... . Hope that helps. Don't expect others to see, if you want to win them over, do it slowly and with current examples. Remember BPD are experts at makeing people doubt your memories, and discreaditing you. Also remember BPD don't realy change (especially if very old), and can get dangerous if you try and expose them. They will fight you, try to discredit you and possibly worse. Also if you try and abruptly abandon or reject them - think "Bunny Boiler" in the film "Fatel Attraction" but again there's a spectrum and Bunny Boilers are at the extream end.

[BabeRuthless]

Lise and Happy: Thanks for your informative and comforting insights. I know now that I am not alone and that I haven't lost my own mind! When I was little, my GM seemed to me like someone with a preternatural power over others, and hatred so intense and degrading that it seemed evil to me. I remember imagining (or fearing) that she could "pick up" objects and hurl them across the room with her mind... . or that she could harm other people simply by thinking about them. She was of the "Borderline Mother" witch description, which I read with recognition and relief, having seen nowhere else such a dead-ringer description of my grandmother's psychopathology. 

One more question: Does anyone else here feel that they were a prisoner of their BPD caregiver? While my grandmother didn't lock me in a closet or tie me down, I was her hostage and under her total physical and emotional control. I couldn't escape, except within and by reading books. She wouldn't allow me to do household chores - I think she feared exertion, and that I was fragile. I wasn't allowed to bathe unattended or wash my own hair. She sometimes gave me enemas and laxatives and asked about my bowel movements. (Sorry to sound so personal). Did anyone else have experiences like this?

[BreatheDeep]

Yes. Exactly and by BPDm enjoyed it. I don't want to think about it, but I'm glad to see I'm not alone, well I mean, I'm sorry you went through it but it means we are not alone. I thought it must be too weird to happen to anyone else in the world.

Maybe we can talk it about it more later.

[jessienbp]

BabeRuthless -- So sorry you had to go through that.


"It's not so much the act, but the look in her eyes while she does it."

That is so on-target.

The eyes radiate pure HATRED.

And sometimes they seem to go flat just like a shark's.

That along with the clenched teeth, contorted face, and expression of unmitigated, out-of-control rage, as though they would as soon kill you as look at you, is just terrifying.

I know I have PTSD from being raised by my mother.

I've found EMDR can be helpful -- I've tried it and it worked well on a memory of my dad apparently dropping dead in front of me -- but there are so many memories of my mother's abusiveness and terrorizing that having a session on each of them would take decades. Some I was too young to remember, although my earliest memory is my mother trying to attack me physically while my dad rather ineffectually held me in his arms and tried to shield me with his body. I must have been maybe 2. (Dad was not at all abusive, but had no strength to stand up to my mother -- he was severely depressed and anxious -- and anyway she divorced him when I was 4. Intensely jealous of any relationship i had with him thereafter, and anyway he lived 300 miles away and died when I was 17. God help me, I wish it were the reverse. I know that's a terrible thing to say, but it's true.)

p.s. Giving unnecessary enemas (for the giver's gratification, not out of ignorance) is a known form of child abuse.

[BabeRuthless]

Jess: Thanks for your reply. Looking back, it seems to me that my GM was trying to purge herself and us of anything unclean, and was striving to be "pure" on both physical and emotional/spiritual levels... . to have absolute control. She never allowed my grandfather to drive the car when we went places. She was paranoid, suspicious, and reclusive. She was extremely arch, morally. She was very intelligent and high-functioning (and a voracious reader), though not educated. 

The dark world in her mind, and I think from her past, was projected onto us constantly, and as a result, we grew up scared of everything/everyone, self loathing, and feeling unworthy of space on the planet. She made us believe we were fragile and would not be safe without her. She "emasculated" people, both men and women, by overpowering them and wearing them out. She taught us that men were not to be trusted, that we were in perpetual danger of being attacked or harmed, and communicated that sex was evil and dirty. She was polite and charming outside the house, then said vile things about others when the door was closed. She was an overpowering, dominating, suffocating, intrusive presence. She has been a spectre in my mind and heart my whole life, still bringing dread and anxiety to me decades later.

I've read elsewhere here of folks of my GM's generation who lived through the Great Depression, poverty, etc. I am SURE this affected my GM, too. She guarded constantly against deprivation and owing anything to anyone.

Thanks, Jessie. While I wouldn't wish these conditions on anyone, I am so glad I'm in good company here. 

 

[czarsmom]

Baberuthless, my mom was just like this.  I know exactly what you are talking about.  She was sadistic in her abuse of me.  She would soul rape me, and then when she saw how upset and hurt I was, there would be this little sick, twisted smile on her face. 

I do believe there are actually evil spirits, and that some people are under their influence.  The way she acted was just so unnatural and out there.  I believe my mom was influenced by evil spirits.

[BabeRuthless]

Czar: I have had this thought so many times over the years that I'm embarrassed to admit it. Sometimes, I dismiss it by telling myself that I was a child and didn't know what I was seeing and feeling with my grandmother. Somehow, "evil" has seemed the best metaphor or descriptor for what was happening. Very confusing and disturbing.

Often, I think of my BPD grandmother and the experience with her like a violent car accident: I want to go past it, but I can't stop staring. I feel frozen in horror, like, "What WAS that I just saw and felt?" What is its essential nature, and why does it have such a grip on me? Is it possible to have some peace around it, to learn to cope with it, without really understanding it? To accept it, somehow, and try to let it go?

I woke up this morning on Mother's Day with all kinds of thoughts. Recently, I read a blog post by a woman with BPD who described her illness as an "emotional sunburn." I also think sometimes of the emotions of BPD folks as a radio turned up way too loud, or a piece of old camera film that absorbs and records every minute detail of its experience in an over-vivid, over-the-top way. A few days ago, I also ran across the phrase "emotional hemophilia" for BPD... . no boundaries, and unmanageable emotions spilling all over and damaging others. My mother is like that.

I was very young when my GM did the enemas and I have only vague memories of them... . I don't recall her facial expression while this was going on. But I do remember a feeling of absolute determination on her part: she was going to do what she was going to do. She had a monstrous, all-consuming intensity about her.

[P.F.Change]

Often, I think of my BPD grandmother and the experience with her like a violent car accident: I want to go past it, but I can't stop staring. I feel frozen in horror, like, "What WAS that I just saw and felt?" What is its essential nature, and why does it have such a grip on me? Is it possible to have some peace around it, to learn to cope with it, without really understanding it? To accept it, somehow, and try to let it go?

This remembering is an important part of the recovery process. Have you taken a look at the Remembering stages of the Survivor's Guide in the right hand margin? Yes, it is possible to learn to cope and find peace. Do you have a therapist to help with this? I also did EMDR for PTSD and found it tremendously helpful.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[czarsmom]

Babe Ruthless, M Scott Peck wrote a great book about evil people.  He believes there are such a thing, and I do too.  His book is called "People of the Lie". I would recommend it, I think it would help you.

[jessienbp]

There are definitely evil people. Serial killers, sociopaths of all stripes... .

My experience with my mother was more like -- that she was not intrinsically evil through and through and all the time; but seems to become "possessed" by something that looks(ed) and behaves(ed) like an evil spirit, at random times, or when triggered by things i can't even guess at, or whatever goes on in the mind of a queen/witch. The "possession" is/was all too frequent, but not omnipresent. She does a lot of charity work and has tons and tons of friends, who must get some kindness/generosity out of her, presumably?

I am not sure if i believe in literal possession, though i don't rule it out as an impossibility, and I sure don't know if that's what's happening to BPDs -- I'm not sure even the psychiatric profession knows that much about exactly what's going on inside them, or why.

But admittedly it sure does look exactly like an evil demon has just replaced the person when they go into sadistic/lying/manipulative/torture mode.

Curious: Baberuthless, was your GM always and consistently abusive to you, or did she do the "switch" thing? If the former, she *would* qualify as evil.

[BabeRuthless]

My GM did the "switch" thing; at rare moments, she was nurturing. But most of the time, she was angry and hostile and suffocating.

Jessie: As you said of your mother, at times she seemed to be "possessed" by an energy or by intense emotions (anger, fear, hatred) that were frightening to me and that I've always conceived of like a virus: unseen but "catchable" and lethal. As I've read elsewhere of some pwBPD, she didn't seem capable of real intimacy... . She trusted no one, not even my grandfather, her husband. She seemed so very alone and untouchable.

Czar: Just read about the Peck book yesterday and am very interested in looking at it. I still hesitate to think about the person of my GM as evil, but her behavior was destructive, damning, and killing on the heart, soul, mind levels. 

P.F.: Thanks for the good suggestion about reviewing the "Remembering" section of Survivor's Guide... . I will look for it. One thing I hate to admit, but which is dawning on me, too: the fear that if I let this go, there will be nothing interesting or distinctive left about me. That this twistedness was somehow the most significant, defining thing about my life. That I don't deserve love or attention unless I am constantly suffering or a victim. I feel ashamed to admit this... . My GM was very good at making people feel worthless, that they needed her to survive, and that life is suffering.   

[BabeRuthless]

P.F.: Want to qualify last statement slightly. It sounds pathetic when I write it down. It reminds me of material related to Adult Children of Alcoholics admitting that we are addicted to drama and don't know what "normal" is. Having loved ones with BPD feels like that at times.

Also, I'm having great trouble not being consumed with this as it's in my present as well as my past. My mother is uBPD, and my identical twin is diagnosed with borderline traits. My sister has had an even rougher go than I have (she fits the "waif" profile), and we have unwittingly reinforced each other's trauma over years by ruminating about the horrors we experienced together. I used to think we were just supporting each other, until I realized two years ago that we were fueling each other's continued trauma responses. I have constant anxiety and guilt about my twin, and I need to address this. Somehow, trying to let go of this feels like it would be betraying her. I DO need professional help! o:) 

Finally, I am one who has always wanted to understand and conquer everything... . I think this in in part to cover up the abject helplessness I felt as a child. Not letting go of BPD... . remembering it, trying to plumb its depths... . and not letting others forget it (the parents who abandoned me to my mentally ill caregiver) has been pressingly important for me. But I see that this is hurting me and others, and I need to cope differently. Sorry so long... . Didn't mean to ramble. It is just such a relief to be sharing this with people who understand. 

[jessienbp]

Baberuthless --

Do NOT fear that if you get over the issues of being a victim of a BPD caretaker, you will somehow become uninteresting or not distinctive. Or be unlovable.

I, as mentioned elsewhere, got myself back in the clutches of my uNPD mother and am becoming less interesting by the day as I decompensate into this helpless pudding of depression.

But before that, after a lot of work, I had a sort of golden age when I lived 3,000 miles away from her, was financially independent, wasn't disabled, saw some good therapists, had healthy friends/SOs, etc., and she therefore had much, much less influence over me.

And I was a much more interesting and distinctive person. Able to achieve some interesting things workwise, published a couple of short stories (my life dream), was able to help others instead of being this current sinkhole of needing help, had hobbies (interesting ones like exploring caves and aerobic boxing) -- and, to quote Stuart Smalley, ":)oggone it, people liked me." (I just got a social media message out of the blue from a boyfriend of 10 years ago, then just a doctor and now the dean of a medical school, who looked me up to write me and tell me I had been one of the most influential people in his life.) So, when the power of my uNPD mother was at an ebb, I was a real person, not a tormented puppet living in fear and victimhood.

Plus, you'll like yourself. Try to imagine that. I know it's hard from where you stand now, because I didn't for so long and used to think that developing a sense of self-esteem was as possible as growing a tail. Then with therapy and a healthier environment and most crucially when a continent away from mom (and with some help from medication), I did. Like myself. All of a sudden now I am directly back in her constantly undermining power, I don't anymore -- but I can remember the feeling, and it is miraculous. A never-ending, delightful, astonishing "Wow. it happened."

You will not be diminished. You *were* diminished against your power and your will. You will grow and become the person you were meant to be.

[BabeRuthless]

Jess: I am inspired by your story... . Thank you! You made my day. There is hope. Your insights and support are exactly what I needed today. You sound like such a talented and alive, and aware person... . I am glad we can be here for each other. Because of you, my day has changed. I'm running to work and can't find the emoticons, but here's a big SMILE SMILE!

[P.F.Change]

One thing I hate to admit, but which is dawning on me, too: the fear that if I let this go, there will be nothing interesting or distinctive left about me. That this twistedness was somehow the most significant, defining thing about my life. That I don't deserve love or attention unless I am constantly suffering or a victim. I feel ashamed to admit this... . My GM was very good at making people feel worthless, that they needed her to survive, and that life is suffering.   

I don't think it is pathetic to admit this. I think acknowledging your thoughts and feelings is the first step if you want to change something about them. It sounds like you have tied your sense of identity to being a victim. What would it be like to identify as a Survivor instead? It may take time, but you can create a new "normal."

I have constant anxiety and guilt about my twin, and I need to address this. Somehow, trying to let go of this feels like it would be betraying her. I DO need professional help! o:)  

I think it is really great when someone can identify areas where they need help and then actually ask for it. That is a way we take charge of our own healing. I was resistant to the idea of therapy for a long time, but I'm glad I took the risk of asking for help, because it taught me a lot. I definitely needed professional help, and it's good that I took care of that need.

What are you feeling anxious and guilty about when it comes to your sister? Is it hard to let her make her own decisions and experience the consequences? Do you have trouble maintaining healthy boundaries with her?

But I see that this is hurting me and others, and I need to cope differently.

Looking for information to try and gain understanding is one way to help us process what we have been through. Studying up about BPD is not a bad thing. It is also not a bad thing to acknowledge your hurt and anger and put the responsibility for the abuse and neglect you went through where it belongs. This is where the Survivor's Guide can be helpful--you will see these stages are part of the process. What I hear from you is that you no longer want to hold onto that resentment that comes from a Victim mentality, and that you would like to learn another way to cope. Is that right? Do you think this has anything to do with shame?

A couple of workshops that may have some relevant insights are:

Respecting our anger

Are we co-dependent?

Toxic shame--what is it and what can we do about it?

I am interested to hear what you think.

PF

[BabeRuthless]

P.F. -- Thanks for your thoughtful response. I looked at materials on anger, shame, etc., and they hit the mark. Am realizing, after decades, that I live in that shame, and almost everything seems to trigger it. Maybe this is where withdrawal and avoidance have come in... . if most people and situations trigger such shame, it's easier to be paralyzed, frozen, and numb. 

Re: my identical twin, this is a growth and change area that feels intimidating and almost impossible. I feel toward her that we were like soldiers in a trench together (with our BPD grandmother) who got bombarded and almost killed... . and somehow we got stuck there. This is another fact of my life that I feel deep shame over... . that I have not yet learned how to transform my part in this relationship. She has struggled with depression, anxiety, alcoholism, and BPD features since we were young teenagers, and I have horrible guilt that I haven't been able to "save" her or ease her pain. Our coping patterns have been different: I am a striver/overachiever and am in much more secure life position now than she. Our relationship has been a great blessing in some ways, but also confounding and binding. Having an identical twin in a deeply disturbed family puts one at risk, from the very start of life, for co-dependency. If she's happy, I'm happy; if she goes down, I go down.   

Did you happen to see the picture/video viral on the Web last week re: the twin girls, born by C-section, who entered the world holding hands? This is my relationship with my BPD-feature identical twin. In a sense, "I am her, and she is me."

Long enough for one post. I will look forward to continued conversation. Thank you, P.F... . your post is helping open my eyes. Am grateful to be here.   

     

[jessienbp]

For your guilt about not being able to "save" your sister, you might find Al-Anon helpful. It would directly address her alcoholism issue, and the rest, too.

I mean your guilt about those things.

[BabeRuthless]

Jess: I have been going to Al-Anon for about two years... . You're right; it's very helpful. It has awakened me to the depth of this co-dependency, and this awareness is so painful for me.