Is he really crazy…or just trying to make me feel crazy

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I saw the exBPDbf today and he started going on this rant of why I just can't care about his feelings…during this rant he says things like "remember when my mom was dying, you just wanted me to go to walmart" or "when I went to my dads on his birthday you got angry" ….the crazy thing is I am the one that encouraged him to go to his dads and take flowers…and when his mom was dying I was there every moment trying to support him the best i could. There are many examples where I am just baffled…. I feel like he really believes these stories that make me out to be a cold heartless b___…or else I am completely delusional and living in a fantasy world. Does anyone have any experience with this? Does he really see things this way, he never sees the reality which is I am kind and supportive and encouraging…or does he just not want to admit it. Its so hard to completely detach while deeply wanting to help him see the good in me. I wish I didn't care! I know that I shouldn't!

[guitargrl]

I saw the exBPDbf today and he started going on this rant of why I just can't care about his feelings…during this rant he says things like "remember when my mom was dying, you just wanted me to go to walmart" or "when I went to my dads on his birthday you got angry" ….the crazy thing is I am the one that encouraged him to go to his dads and take flowers…and when his mom was dying I was there every moment trying to support him the best i could. There are many examples where I am just baffled…. I feel like he really believes these stories that make me out to be a cold heartless b___…or else I am completely delusional and living in a fantasy world. Does anyone have any experience with this? Does he really see things this way, he never sees the reality which is I am kind and supportive and encouraging…or does he just not want to admit it. Its so hard to completely detach while deeply wanting to help him see the good in me. I wish I didn't care! I know that I shouldn't!

[Emelie Emelie]

Oh yes.  My actions were often "misinterpreted".  I said "I'm trying to apologize and not doing a very good job of it".  He says "You even admitted you can't apologize."  I offer he and his son tickets to a major league ball game which happens to be on the same day as a boring family obligation of mine and "I don't want him around my family".  I call his 90 year old mother Mrs. X because she hasn't asked me to call her by her first name and I am keeping distance between myself and his family.  There's projection and gas lighting.  And yes... . you start to feel crazy.  You're not crazy.  The dynamic is crazy. 

[toomanytears]

I saw the exBPDbf today and he started going on this rant of why I just can't care about his feelings…during this rant he says things like "remember when my mom was dying, you just wanted me to go to walmart" or "when I went to my dads on his birthday you got angry" ….the crazy thing is I am the one that encouraged him to go to his dads and take flowers…and when his mom was dying I was there every moment trying to support him the best i could. There are many examples where I am just baffled…. I feel like he really believes these stories that make me out to be a cold heartless b___…or else I am completely delusional and living in a fantasy world. Does anyone have any experience with this? Does he really see things this way, he never sees the reality which is I am kind and supportive and encouraging…or does he just not want to admit it. Its so hard to completely detach while deeply wanting to help him see the good in me. I wish I didn't care! I know that I shouldn't!

I know it is so, so hard. You are not delusional. He is gaslighting you. Think of it this way: it's precisely because you have so much good in you that he has to make up these stories - to justify his bad behaviour. Mine did the same, all the time, for over 30 years.

It kills me that he is now painting me black to all his new found friends and my replacement. There is nothing I can do about it but try to distract myself when these thoughts pop into my head. There's rather a good book I've just started to dip into called 'How to train a wild elephant'. It's based on mindfulness and has some interesting suggestions that help when those negative thoughts come drifting in from the left field.

Remember, you are the good one.

[Ihope2]

"Its so hard to completely detach while deeply wanting to help him see the good in me"

This is exactly how we are hooked, Guitargrl!  I know this feeling so well.

This is what keeps us on the ":)rama Triangle", forever playing the rescuer or being the victim to our BPD partner/family member.

I read that the only way to get off the drama triangle is via the persecutor role.  Not that that means that we have to get ugly, but when we shift the dynamics in a healthy way and refuse to be the rescuer or victim any more, or even for that matter, to get constantly hooked into them thinking we are their persecutor, this, in itself, makes us seem like the biggest persecutor out!

You have to hold the feelings of guilt, shame and anger about being perceived as such.  I don't think I would ever have been able to make a "breakthrough" with my soon to be ex BPDh, to make him see that I only meant well, and  never intentionally tried to harm him.  It is a no-win situation being in a relationship with a person with BPD who does not have insight into their own emotional life and is unable to separate "their issues" from "your issues".  You will be up against their mental and emotional distortions and all of it is fuelled by their great abandonment fears and a drive to punish the other. 

The best is to try to detach and stop ruminating about whether we can ever make them trust us and see the genuineness and the goodwill coming from our side.  It is futile.

[2010]

Does he really see things this way, he never sees the reality which is I am kind and supportive and encouraging…or does he just not want to admit it. Its so hard to completely detach while deeply wanting to help him see the good in me.

Borderline personality disorder is a distorted belief system where an internalized "punitive parent" loops on an inner tape in the mind of the Borderline. It is a hidden tape until it is triggered. This punitive parent is cruel and admonishing and causes him allot of internal shame which then gets displaced upon you.

Much of the coping mechanisms he has for this cruelty involve the constant search for an idealized partner, one who will "complete him" yet will not trigger the "punitive parent." Because this is fantasy thinking, reality testing always causes problems. Relationships become anxiety ridden with blame for the reasons that a person with BPD cannot self soothe the defectiveness they feel and the partner (that's you- the formerly idealized and perfect love) is now the stand-in for the internalized parent that the angry child blames. In other words, you will be blamed for just about everything that is wrong, because BPD is about shame and defectiveness, mistrust and blame for the failure to become separate and whole without another human being to attach to.

Unfortunately, the human beings that get involved with people with BPD are hurt by blame. They try harder to please, understand and fix the disorder, not realizing that this creates more "punitiveness" in the mind of the Borderline.

during this rant he says things like "remember when my mom was dying, you just wanted me to go to walmart" or "when I went to my dads on his birthday you got angry"

He is gaslighting you.

It's not gaslighting, it's a distorted perception of you, and yes, he really believes what he says, especially when triggered. This is a disorder and these thoughts are not done to gaslight you but to transfer or displace the punitive parent on to you where it can be resolved.

You, on the other hand, have no idea of what it is that you've done, because with all due respect, you are merely a cipher for the disorder. A cipher allows for the distorted thoughts to surface where they may become compulsively repetitious if you stay with each other for years. This is a disorder. There really isn't much you can do about that except retreat.

I read that the only way to get off the drama triangle is via the persecutor role.

The only way off the drama triangle is as a victim.  

[Narellan]

I got off the drama cycle as a persecutor. I was a victim in that he was the persecutor and replaced me with my best friend who is trying to rescue him. I was unknowingly the victim for a long time. Once I discovered their affair, I deleted them both from my life. She's still in shock, I'm still NC with him. I feel like the last man standing that I got one up on both of them by discovering their betrayal. But I left the triangle with my head held high and left them to wonder what the f happened. That's how I got out.

[guitargrl]

Thanks everyone for the replies and insight…this board is a life saver to me!

[toomanytears]

Does he really see things this way, he never sees the reality which is I am kind and supportive and encouraging…or does he just not want to admit it. Its so hard to completely detach while deeply wanting to help him see the good in me.

Borderline personality disorder is a distorted belief system where an internalized "punitive parent" loops on an inner tape in the mind of the Borderline. It is a hidden tape until it is triggered. This punitive parent is cruel and admonishing and causes him allot of internal shame which then gets displaced upon you.

Much of the coping mechanisms he has for this cruelty involve the constant search for an idealized partner, one who will "complete him" yet will not trigger the "punitive parent." Because this is fantasy thinking, reality testing always causes problems. Relationships become anxiety ridden with blame for the reasons that a person with BPD cannot self soothe the defectiveness they feel and the partner (that's you- the formerly idealized and perfect love) is now the stand-in for the internalized parent that the angry child blames. In other words, you will be blamed for just about everything that is wrong, because BPD is about shame and defectiveness, mistrust and blame for the failure to become separate and whole without another human being to attach to.

Unfortunately, the human beings that get involved with people with BPD are hurt by blame. They try harder to please, understand and fix the disorder, not realizing that this creates more "punitiveness" in the mind of the Borderline.

during this rant he says things like "remember when my mom was dying, you just wanted me to go to walmart" or "when I went to my dads on his birthday you got angry"

He is gaslighting you.

It's not gaslighting, it's a distorted perception of you, and yes, he really believes what he says, especially when triggered. This is a disorder and these thoughts are not done to gaslight you but to transfer or displace the punitive parent on to you where it can be resolved.

You, on the other hand, have no idea of what it is that you've done, because with all due respect, you are merely a cipher for the disorder. A cipher allows for the distorted thoughts to surface where they may become compulsively repetitious if you stay with each other for years. This is a disorder. There really isn't much you can do about that except retreat.

I read that the only way to get off the drama triangle is via the persecutor role.

The only way off the drama triangle is as a victim.  

This is so well put 2010.

Just to clarify I meant that to guitargrl the effect of this BPD behaviour is  one of gaslighting. You are right, the BPD does not consciously do this to their partners.

Your observation about the punative parent is fascinating.  Towards the end of our 31 year marriage I began to get a very strong feeling that i was slowly transforming into my BPDh's mother. I can't explain it, but his behaviour towards me shifted as if I had become someone else in his eyes. Once I caught sight of him at the kitchen table and I saw on his face and in his body language not a 55 year old man but a teenage boy who resented the presence of his parent standing over him while he ate his supper. it was almost scary.

My BPDh lost his beloved sister to leukemia at 10 and that left him on his own with two already very dysfunctional  and punative parents - an abused mother and an abusive father. Less than a year later his sister was replaced with a baby brother. I think his feelings of rejection became well and truly embedded at that point. Poor guy didn't have a chance... . while I'm devastated by his  behaviour towards me I do feel very, very sad for him... .

[going places]

I saw the exBPDbf today and he started going on this rant of why I just can't care about his feelings…during this rant he says things like "remember when my mom was dying, you just wanted me to go to walmart" or "when I went to my dads on his birthday you got angry" ….the crazy thing is I am the one that encouraged him to go to his dads and take flowers…and when his mom was dying I was there every moment trying to support him the best i could. There are many examples where I am just baffled…. I feel like he really believes these stories that make me out to be a cold heartless b___…or else I am completely delusional and living in a fantasy world.

I have walked miles and miles in your shoes... .

Does anyone have any experience with this? Does he really see things this way, he never sees the reality which is I am kind and supportive and encouraging…or does he just not want to admit it. Its so hard to completely detach while deeply wanting to help him see the good in me. I wish I didn't care! I know that I shouldn't!

For me personally, my STBEXDH 'tried' to do this to me all the time.

He would twist reality, tweek reality just enough thinking he could 'confuse' me into believing his made up bull crap.

I honestly believe in HIS MIND he lies so much, that his lies become his reality, and he "really thinks" things went down the way he 'remembers'... . when actually, reality is nothing like what is going on in his head.

IMHO I simply would never talk to the exbf ever again.

Manipulation is a very powerful tool to lure you in and enslave you one again.

[antjs]

A BPD's mind and thoughts is like a stock market controlled by a lobby. sudden changes that are not logical or realistic. one moment he\she thinks of you as the best thing in the world (white) and the next moment you are the most horrible person on earth (black). that's called splitting and it is a defensive mechanism they use in order not to take the blame on themselves. they never say sorry. they never think that they have done anything wrong in their lives. My exBPD got an abortion after sleeping with a work colleague soon after her divorce. she blamed him for accepting to have sex with her ! and he was the reason that she went through this abortion ! (i then found that she gets angry if you try to use any sexual protection method with her ! ) If you were too good to make a big mistake with them, they will just imagine stuff that you did not make, repeat it in their head till they truly believe it. If they do not do this, that will break their system and they will face emotions they can not handle cause their emotional growth stopped at childhood. You have to be split black, its only a projection of daddy\mommy when he\she was young. If i were to sum up BPD in 2 expressions that would be DENIAL and FEAR OF ABANDONMENT.

[Narellan]

Thanks Antony your post is amazing and a really positive reminder to me.