Lying

[Runningbare]

I can see that mine is an extreme case of BPD. And everyone has different reasons why getting away may not be a simple option... . BUT... . listening, interpreting and trying to understand is what got me into this trouble in the first place . She is definately better, but she will never be right. For me the lies are what simply cant be overcome.

[gary seven]

How prevalent is lying as a part of BPD?

it's like their oxygen

When do they most lie?

when they are awake

How can you tell?

their lips are moving

Thanks... .

Brilliant

Just love the above!

One of my slow to develop skills is recognizing the lies she tells one family member/therapist/program she uses to set me up for yet another negative response. 

Like trying to align two opposite magnetic poles.  She ought to understand physics, my youngest one does. 

As her pronouncements become more acute and frequent, I know we are about to get on that not-so-lazy-susan for another spin.

Treatment/Remedy:  Put on my own oxygen mask first.  In the past I used to say to myself, " try not to think about it." That kept me stuck for many years.  The oxygen is so much more liberating.

[corraline]

The lying and all of the excuses for it and his projecting the reasons for it onto me was dangerous for my mental health. He knew my FOO issues well, and being someone in the mental health profession himself gave him more tools to do so.

I became so confused and questioned my reality at times. I'm still trying to get my head straight about it all.    Seriously scary stuff.

[sweetheart]

Hello All

This is a great thread. Funny and sad all at the same time.

In the beginning I used to call my dBPDh on the lying because it was just so in my face LYING! You will all know of course any challenge to a lie automatically invalidates the pwBPD, so everything is then way worse. So I have learnt to leave everything well alone now. It took some eight years of trial and error, and sometimes I am still left open-mouthed at the audacity of my dBPDh lies. If I know it to be a lie now, I just say that this is not how I remember events and then just listen.

It's funny but the lies are not an aspect of this disorder that bother me; I have learnt to accept that when my dBPDh is out of the house without me I can never know for sure what is happening, so I no longer ask or even wonder about it.  Surprisingly this sits alright with me now. I also accept that for my dBPDh the lies represent an aspect of his reality, sad 

Waverider you outline the pathology of lying for pwBPD really well, and AimingforMastery brilliant anecdotal insight 

[letmeout]

I asked my BPDex's parents why he lied about everything, all the time.

His mother responded that he was born with a lie in his mouth.

Like a little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, he would deny that you saw what you saw, and try to convince you that you imagined it.  He thought everyone else lied like he did because for him it was the normal thing to do. 

Are most BPD people born without a conscious?

[AimingforMastery]

This may run counter to the thread but I am working with an Indian mystic to help understand my gf. I have to say he has really helped. Until the next What the heck just happened it has been plain sailing by listening to his advice.

Of course this may be short lived, but so far every time he has been proved right.

This does not mean I will not say bye anyway, but... . I am learning a great deal from him.

Is he teaching you listen and interpret better?

He is actually telling me reassuring things that she is not as bad as I fear. and so far everything he has said has been accurate. (Unbelievably!)

In terms of lying he says she only lies a little.

He also says my using the BPD label is damaging to her.

And he says all I need to do is radiate being calm & soothing, and let her know that is what expected and simply never get mad - and if necessary remove myself in order to stay calm, then get calm, and then return calm - and continue to stand in love, and express myself from standing in love.

As she sees this she slowly understand mine is the only way. Calm & loving.

Ultimately it leaves her no choice.

[AimingforMastery]

By the way if anyone wants an introduction to his chap, let me know. He is not expensive, and has brought me much peace in the chaos.

... . which is priceless.

[waverider]

This may run counter to the thread but I am working with an Indian mystic to help understand my gf. I have to say he has really helped. Until the next What the heck just happened it has been plain sailing by listening to his advice.

Of course this may be short lived, but so far every time he has been proved right.

This does not mean I will not say bye anyway, but... . I am learning a great deal from him.

Is he teaching you listen and interpret better?

He is actually telling me reassuring things that she is not as bad as I fear. and so far everything he has said has been accurate. (Unbelievably!)

In terms of lying he says she only lies a little.

He also says my using the BPD label is damaging to her.

And he says all I need to do is radiate being calm & soothing, and let her know that is what expected and simply never get mad - and if necessary remove myself in order to stay calm, then get calm, and then return calm - and continue to stand in love, and express myself from standing in love.

As she sees this she slowly understand mine is the only way. Calm & loving.

Ultimately it leaves her no choice.

Sounds like he is teaching you to remove perceived threat and criticism your partner may feel you are radiating. Which in turn negates a lot of her motive to cover up. Most lying, not all, is driven by a feeling of fear of discovery. Allying the fear will lesson the fibbing. Probably not eliminate it though as it is too ingrained, almost instinctive.

All this is good, but is very hard to do. We can but try our best 

[Perdita]

To add to all the exceptionally accurate accounts here. When you try to combat the lies by looking futher or investigating anything that is said. Realise that to everyone else they know, you are being portrayed as jealous, insecure and stupid. Which eventually is what you become to some extent anyway.

I became so confused and questioned my reality at times. I'm still trying to get my head straight about it all.    Seriously scary stuff.

This is very true.  You start to question your own sanity, constantly second guessing yourself and generally turning into someone you don't recognize anymore.

[FigureIt]

I completely agree that you question your sanity.  Especially when they claim they said something or did something and you know it didn't happen.  You do begin to second guess yourself.

[AimingforMastery]

This may run counter to the thread but I am working with an Indian mystic to help understand my gf. I have to say he has really helped. Until the next What the heck just happened it has been plain sailing by listening to his advice.

Of course this may be short lived, but so far every time he has been proved right.

This does not mean I will not say bye anyway, but... . I am learning a great deal from him.

Is he teaching you listen and interpret better?

He is actually telling me reassuring things that she is not as bad as I fear. and so far everything he has said has been accurate. (Unbelievably!)

In terms of lying he says she only lies a little.

He also says my using the BPD label is damaging to her.

And he says all I need to do is radiate being calm & soothing, and let her know that is what expected and simply never get mad - and if necessary remove myself in order to stay calm, then get calm, and then return calm - and continue to stand in love, and express myself from standing in love.

As she sees this she slowly understand mine is the only way. Calm & loving.

Ultimately it leaves her no choice.

Sounds like he is teaching you to remove perceived threat and criticism your partner may feel you are radiating. Which in turn negates a lot of her motive to cover up. Most lying, not all, is driven by a feeling of fear of discovery. Allying the fear will lesson the fibbing. Probably not eliminate it though as it is too ingrained, almost instinctive.

All this is good, but is very hard to do. We can but try our best 

thanks waverider.

Yes, that is much of it. He goes further still, and suggests not caring, in that our state of being is so powerful who cares if she is nice or not nice, that is nothing to do with me and her stuff. Of course this is easier to do in my situation where I am not living with her... but it is still very hard to do.

In any event, it is great advice - focus on your own state of being and continually being a loving, honest person.

If she loves you she will be with you, if she does not - that's fine too - as you are more than fine just the way you are.

JUST BE

[waverider]

This is good advice also, as you are removing the control her reactions have over your life, hence reducing your own risk of resentment. It also helps by reducing your instinct for reactive responses, which simply fuels the escalation.

Perhaps "not caring" is not the right term, more "removing your dependency on her behavior" might be better. The former can be invalidating (triggering) whereas the latter is taking a responsibility away from her (easing source of triggers). If something she does visibly affects you she will then go on to pile on the nonsense to deflect responsibility.

Sometimes small shifts in perception can make all the difference

[AimingforMastery]

This is good advice also, as you are removing the control her reactions have over your life, hence reducing your own risk of resentment. It also helps by reducing your instinct for reactive responses, which simply fuels the escalation.

Perhaps "not caring" is not the right term, more "removing your dependency on her behavior" might be better. The former can be invalidating (triggering) whereas the latter is taking a responsibility away from her (easing source of triggers). If something she does visibly affects you she will then go on to pile on the nonsense to deflect responsibility.

Sometimes small shifts in perception can make all the difference

Yes, those refinements re accurate waverider. The essence of his teaching is to be powerfully in your own state of being so that other's behavior does not affect you. Or at least far less so. Strong sense of self... . - which is quite ironic given the lack of sense of self in most BPD's... .

[waverider]

Ironically it is often the nons lack of self that causes us to fall for a pwBPD when they are in the idealization phase, rather than seeing the red flag. When we met them we did not see their lack of self, we just saw them reflecting us and so we bonded. We needed their validation

This is why we have to fix us first, odds are we had weak boundaries in the first place.

[sweetheart]

Oh Waverider that is a scarily insightful post about our own lack of self. A therapist friend of mine said following in love with a pwBPD is like following in love with yourself. I am reminded of the myth of Narcissus who fell in love with his own reflection and died because he could not see that it was himself. There is more to it than that,  but your post really resonated with me - ouch.

[sweetheart]

Scary Freudian slip- I meant falling not following  I think maybe following is better.

[FigureIt]

Ironically it is often the nons lack of self that causes us to fall for a pwBPD when they are in the idealization phase, rather than seeing the red flag. When we met them we did not see their lack of self, we just saw them reflecting us and so we bonded. We needed their validation

This is why we have to fix us first, odds are we had weak boundaries in the first place.

I completely agree waverider that we nons lack(ed) something in our self that caused us to fall for the pwBPD.  I know that I had been verbally and emotionally beaten down by my exhusband and that my current uBPDbf said ALL the right things and that I completely ignored all the  .  It frustrates me that I saw those   and ignored them.  But now I need to make myself strong, yet ignoring/avoiding his behavior can be very difficult.  They are SOO consuming sometimes.  I truly think he demands more attention then my 8yr old child.

[mywifecrazy]

I completely agree waverider that we nons lack(ed) something in our self that caused us to fall for the pwBPD.  It frustrates me that I saw those   and ignored them.

Completely agree also. I've posted it before and I'll post it again. "It's going to be a healthy relationship for me or NO relationship". I'm not looking for a relationship to make me happy. I want to be happy and healthy on my own first and then if God wills it to meet someone who is also happy and healthy on her own.

I think that's at the CORE of all failed relationships. Unhealthy people looking elsewhere to fill the void of what makes them unhappy or

I need to keep doing the work to change the person that I was that TOTALLY IGNORED all the  . I mean I was shown so many   that you would have thought I was at a communist rally but I CHOSE to ignore them because I thought I was in LOVE! Turns out my idea of LOVE was skewed.

I also need to accept the fact that there were  about me too and change the things about me that I can change!

[FigureIt]

I mean I was shown so many   that you would have thought I was at a communist rally but I CHOSE to ignore them because I thought I was in LOVE! Turns out my idea of LOVE was skewed.

I also need to accept the fact that there were  about me too and change the things about me that I can change!

Total LOL to the communist rally!  Also, I don't know if I would say my idea of LOVE was skewed, but that my uBPDbf said the right things at the start that made me believe it was love. 

I don't believe (or at least in my bf) that he knows what or how to love.

[waverider]

It is ok to love yourself, just dont project that love onto what is only a reflection of yourself.

[mywifecrazy]

Also, I don't know if I would say my idea of LOVE was skewed, but that my uBPDbf said the right things at the start that made me believe it was love. 

I don't believe (or at least in my bf) that he knows what or how to love.

Yes I was unsure if I really meant it that way. I think I did TRUELY love her even though I didn't have a healthy understanding of what love is like I do now. But was it real love as the person I loved wasn't real but just an image created to have me THINK I was in love. Yes I feel the way you do. My X was manipulating to GET me to love her.

Very complicated stuff!

[letmeout]

How prevalent is lying as a part of BPD?

it's like their oxygen

When do they most lie?

when they are awake

How can you tell?

their lips are moving

Thanks... .

I read this the other day, and it just cracked me up all over again!

[JackBlacknBlue]

I assume everything coming from my uBPD is a lie at this point.  The 4 year history of inconsequential and serious lies has taught me it is more refreshing to discover something was a truth than the persistent disappointment of finding out things were lies. 

[123Phoebe]

It is ok to love yourself, just dont project that love onto what is only a reflection of yourself.

Is it okay to love this? ^^   

Aw, waverider, you rule!  That is so what we 'nons' tend to do, isn't it?  Is it our own need for validation that we seek out/soak up idealization in someone mirroring us.  Wow.  It's so simple, yet until we're ready to receive the message, it's all convoluted and this way and that... . complicated.

At least, I think that's what you meant?  Maybe?

Are we even projecting our real selves in the beginning?

[waverider]

It is ok to love yourself, just dont project that love onto what is only a reflection of yourself.

Is it okay to love this? ^^   

Aw, waverider, you rule!  That is so what we 'nons' tend to do, isn't it?  Is it our own need for validation that we seek out/soak up idealization in someone mirroring us.  Wow.  It's so simple, yet until we're ready to receive the message, it's all convoluted and this way and that... . complicated.

At least, I think that's what you meant?  Maybe?

Are we even projecting our real selves in the beginning?

Correct, if you can see yourself for who you are and learn to appreciate yourself you will not be so vulnerable, or needy for, the opinions of others, whether good or bad. Your life decisions and attitude towards others will be more centered as a consequence.

[thicker skin]

Lying isn't part of the diagnostic criteria for BPD... . Healthy nons tell the odd porky " of course you don't look fat in that dress... . Mmm, dinner was lovely... . Oh my! What a beautiful baby " if we were all completely honest, all of the time, we'd hurt people. It's the reason for the lie that hurts ie if we are hiding things we'd be too ashamed to admit, or protecting someone's feelings when we know that the truth is just a hurtful and worthless opinion.

Of course, some of us may have lied because even though the truth might be acceptable to rational people, to a disordered person, it would be the key to Hells door. I've done this when I was meeting his psychiatrist.

Being able to trust and thinking that everyone else is lying has proved to be a bigger issue in my relationship. 100 people could stand in a line and swear blind that I was at work, not meeting a random for sex, but he would still believe his own reality.

Does he lie? Well, I wasn't looking for it for years and the ones he did tell were the sort I could rationalise as human nature. However, the more paranoid he became, the more he lied and accused others of lying. To trust even his own family members is dropping his guard and opening himself up for future abuse. He wouldn't want to be an idiot and get taken for a ride.

He lies about people lying, in order to justify his trust issues. It's damaged some good people, but he would never recognise it though. His internal world would collapse if he took a long look at the mistaken, sometimes horrific things he's concluded and been grossly wrong about.

It's not his fault though. If a pilot flies over his house whilst I'm in the garden, he's asking to be accused of watching me :-)

[Perdita]

Also, I don't know if I would say my idea of LOVE was skewed, but that my uBPDbf said the right things at the start that made me believe it was love.

Same here.  My idea of love wasn't skewed and I certainly wasn't even looking for love and had been happily single for years by choice.  He said and did all the right things, was considerate and caring (or pretended to be).  I thought it was love because the facade he put up was so convincing.  I never saw him as some knight in shinning armour, but rather as a good, down to earth, solid guy.  I never felt that he was going out of his way to impress me, but rather that he was just being himself.  Now like most everyone here I am left having to face that the guy I thought he was never really existed.  He still pretends to be that guy a lot of the time, but I have uncovered way too many serious lies and secrets to still believe that he is for real. 

I don't believe (or at least in my bf) that he knows what or how to love.

Same with mine.  So far I have figured out that to him real love is something that is only possible from a distance.

[waverider]

Also, I don't know if I would say my idea of LOVE was skewed, but that my uBPDbf said the right things at the start that made me believe it was love.

Same here.  My idea of love wasn't skewed and I certainly wasn't even looking for love and had been happily single for years by choice.  He said and did all the right things, was considerate and caring (or pretended to be).  I thought it was love because the facade he put up was so convincing.  I never saw him as some knight in shinning armour, but rather as a good, down to earth, solid guy.  I never felt that he was going out of his way to impress me, but rather that he was just being himself.  Now like most everyone here I am left having to face that the guy I thought he was never really existed.  He still pretends to be that guy a lot of the time, but I have uncovered way too many serious lies and secrets to still believe that he is for real. 

The reason it is so convincing is because they are not deliberately trying to sell you an image like a con artist, they are just naturally mirroring you. When they tell you they like what you like, they do, they have adopted your interests and taken them on board. It's not deliberate faking for effect. They have simply "borrowed' your image. In that moment they believe it.

It seems genuine, because it is, it just can't last as it doesn't come from an inner self.

[Perdita]

The reason it is so convincing is because they are not deliberately trying to sell you an image like a con artist, they are just naturally mirroring you. When they tell you they like what you like, they do, they have adopted your interests and taken them on board. It's not deliberate faking for effect. They have simply "borrowed' your image. In that moment they believe it.

This doesn't apply in my case as he certainly never adopted my interests even in the least.  It was always about what he liked and about what he wanted to do.  Mirroring me and my interests were nowhere on the radar.

[slimmiller]

Interesting convo... .


For me, whatever my exBPD says is a lie until she proves her words with actions.

She does not think she is lying (and actually she has NEVER lied in her mind ) because she truly believes it while she is saying it.

If she dont follow through its always, yes but... . this happened. I didnt know I had to do this... . blah blah. Just empty words.


So until I see action to back up words, everything and I mean everything she says, to me, is a lie