Don't They See a Pattern?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Talking to a friend about this... . if all of their relationships seem to follow the same pattern don't they begin to see it at some point?  Idealize, cling, devalue, discard?  Sometimes followed by recycle.  My ex knows he has BPD... . he's read at least one book about it.  Even the diagnostic criteria (which I know he's read): A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.  I've talked to him about when I've felt idealized and devalued.  Wouldn't this "click" somewhere along the line? 

[Emelie Emelie]

Talking to a friend about this... . if all of their relationships seem to follow the same pattern don't they begin to see it at some point?  Idealize, cling, devalue, discard?  Sometimes followed by recycle.  My ex knows he has BPD... . he's read at least one book about it.  Even the diagnostic criteria (which I know he's read): A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.  I've talked to him about when I've felt idealized and devalued.  Wouldn't this "click" somewhere along the line? 

[guitargrl]

I have wondered this same thing too… and mentioned as kindly as possible that we look at the patterns of this in all his relationships…still always my fault... .

[Emelie Emelie]

Yes... . as kindly as possible!  When we got back together this time I, very gently, suggested that there are patterns to the conflicts we had.  You're aware of your reactions and I'm learning about mine.  I think we need to discuss some strategies to deal with our reactions to situations that got us into trouble before.  Not necessary... . he had it "handled".  He now realized how wonderful I was (idealized) and could separate his irritability etc. from his feelings about me.  And then of course there were those support groups he was going to go to... .

[willy45]

Ha ha. That's funny. That's the whole entire problem, isn't it? They can't! It is always someone else's problem and fault. It has to be. I think they feel so much shame about who they are and their past that anything that comes close to touching that self-hatred must be immediately rejected/projected. It's a matter of survival. For real. The key is to accept these things as fact. It's weird. I know. Trust me. But, they just don't have that capacity to self-reflect in this way. They reflect. They can reflect on all the things you did to trigger them. But they can't reflect on why it triggers them or that there might be something wrong for it to even be a trigger. They immediately blame and externalize. How can you then expect them to see a 'pattern' other than 'other people are crazy'.

I just was looking through the 'staying board'. Holy ___. Have a look at some of those threads. Sure. Some seem to have some 'success' (i.e. they don't have raging screaming matches every day). But most of them are stories of people trying to bash their heads against a brick wall exactly for this reason. Their partners can't see the patterns, can't take ownership of what they are bringing to the table, constantly have circular arguments, constant drama, rages for no apparent reason, and, from what I can tell... . a huge break down in self-esteem on the part of the 'nons'. So many of them are trying to practice 'detachment' from these weird cycles. Seems to weird to me. Why would you want to be in a relationship with someone that you had to actively and constantly 'detach' from. Why be in the relationship at all? Isn't that the whole point of being in a relationship? To feel attachment? So weird.

Anyhow, I'm rambling, I know... . but there is a point here. And that point is that no matter how much logic or facts are used to try to get them to see their patterns, it isn't going to make a lick of difference. They are just going to see you as 'attacking' them and provides them with more validation that you are really the one at fault. It is maddening. It is infuriating. It is BPD.

The further I get from this whole thing, the more I feel like I dodged a bullet. Hopefully you are starting to get whiffs of those feelings. They are fleeting at first... . but over time you will be able to see the patterns and see that they are about him and that is really sad for him that he can't see that. But, happy for you that you no longer have to deal with it... .

[corraline]

When I learned from one of my ex's close friend of 25 years that he has behaved this way in all of his relationships , i told him what she said during a heated discussion where i pulled this one out to defend myself . It was one of those times where he was blaming me again and saying it was all about my trust issues.   (yes i feel terribly guilty for breaking this persons confidence )

Anyhow, he said that she did not have any idea of the complexity of those relationships.  He also told me that this friend hated men, was not well herself and abused her own husband.  Basically discredited her big time.

Now I can understand defending oneself. I also understand his friend wasn't there to fully understand the complexity of these relationships, but i also understand that the obvious is ... . there is a pattern that has been experienced and witnessed in his relationships ,( this woman continues a friendship with one of them in particular ) i experienced it, and so did they regardless of the complexities in these relationships

[Emelie Emelie]

Willy I think you're absolutely right about their shame.  My exBF had a lot of shame and guilt and he repressed it with every fiber of his being.  Anything that made him acknowledge that would be too big of a threat to his self image.  That's why when I got really mad after break up #2 and called him on a lot of the crap he'd done and his behaviors I really thought I'd be painted black for-evah! 

[willy45]

Aren't all relationships complex?

[Pecator]

Aye, EE

If in a court of law she would have no case.

We had many recycles, but four were most significant.

The first break compares in significance only to the last. I was "downsized" in my job. My status in this country depended upon my employment. She replaced me a week later. It is documentable from emails of her sister and sessions (together) with her T that she feared I would be forcibly taken away from her. But the reason she cheated on me was due to a 30 second episode on a dance floor.

I spent two months "proving" my love for her transcends immigration issues.

The second came when my regional manager said he had no ambition to deal with visa issues and just wanted me to go back home (this is US/Canada). She ended it over a text from a friend that I hadn't spoke to in several years. This lasted a month while she tried unsuccessfully to date others.

The third happened on the night before my hearing to get the visa I needed to stay in Canada. Instead of being there to help me through the most trying time, she went out with friends and claimed I was being too clingy. This lasted only a couple of weeks. No dating. She seemed to understand that during the stressful times, taking time to breathe was the best solution.

The last, and final time, came as everything we worked for over the past year was successfully coming to pass. During a session with a couples' T, she expressed a fear that she was just my life boat and that I would leave her. She ran back to the replacement of scenario one a week later.

All of this is documentable and provable in a court of law... .


But she will never touch this narrative

[ScotisGone74]

I would have to agree with Willy 100% .    To answer  the question, no, they don't ever see a pattern in their behavior, because if they ever did that could be a flaw of theirs , and if they actually realized they had a flaw they would disintergrate.     They have too much shame and guilt to have room to be able to accept a flaw, which is why they are always so defensive, paranoid, and blaming of others.      

Also in regards to what Willy had to say I just don't get it either now that I've been out and away from the BPD relationship loop why someone would truly want to be with these people in a committed relationship.     If you are having to constantly detach yourself from your partner that you love then really what is the point of the whole relationship?     A true loving and lasting relationship works toward attachment in a non smothering  non cling on way in its own due time, not detachment

[cosmonaut]

This is a good question.  I do think my ex knew that there was something wrong with her.  She said to me on numerous occasions that she was sorry she wasn't normal, that she wished she was normal, that she was sorry she couldn't be a better girlfriend like a normal woman.  We talked so many times about her going to therapy, and she said many times how much she needed to go.  One time she even said to me "I need to get some help or I'm going to lose my family and you and everyone I love".  At the time, that broke my heart and I immediately assured her I was never going to leave her and that the problems she was facing weren't her fault.  Now I think it was a real moment of clarity for her.  I think she was trying to say something to me that I wasn't hearing.  Ultimately, she didn't end up going to therapy - there was no real follow through despite all my efforts.  I think she was very scared of therapy.  I think she was afraid that someone would see behind the mask.

[maternal]

They really have no sense of identity, right?  I don't imagine that if you struggle with who you are on such a deep and fundamental level that you'd be able to rationalize those patterns, regardless of who's pointing them out and how.

My ex knew something was wrong.  He'd been diagnosed, but wouldn't acknowledge it any further than the one time he'd confessed that diagnosis to me.  He would often tell me that he'd run from himself if he could.  He'd say how it was unfair that I only got half a boyfriend and he'll never be the man that I deserve and that he's not worth all this trouble and other such things.  I was aware that what was difficult for me to deal with was far, far more difficult for him.  Perhaps that's why I stayed, I knew that at the root of all of it was a huge, dark hole full of an emptiness that I'd never be able to understand. 

[corraline]

my ex did really strange things like... .   leaving weird clues...

ie   when we were first together he would quack like a duck while drifting off to sleep

drifting off to sleep, he would say other things like, "going for a men's massage"

"watching all of the interesting pu**y walking by"

he would leave things behind on my computer about sex addiction

he sent me a text message from the bathroom at the pub once when his friend had just come over and his friend was talking about some woman he was pursuing and getting all racy about it... . saying " guess so and so is trying to say " i'm a slut too "

many other little not so cryptic clues... . when i questioned these things  he always had a great little answer for them... . i chose to buy into it, i was too invested in my hope that he was telling the truth and i swept it under the carpet   ugh.


If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck its a duck.

[blissful_camper]

Interesting thread.  

My ex was in 'I'm going to fix myself mode' when our relationship began.  He openly admitted that he knew his issues and patterns, knew that what he brought to the table was destructive, and that all of his relationships were basically the same (unhealthy) due to him.  Taking responsibility was one of the tools that he used to suck me in, and feel sorry for him.  

What happened next is he pretended to be in therapy for about 6 months.  It was a lie.  

As the relationship progressed, he denied that his previous relationships were unhealthy.  He would ask how I could have known what those relationships were, forgetting he had told me what they were.  When I reminded him, that's when he started getting really verbally abusive.  The abuse that came out of his mouth was vile. ("Somebody should knock you off your chair." ("You think you know everything." ("You think you're above everyone."  ("Oh! now you're gonna cry?" ("You have dark circles under your eyes, you look like sh_t."

Oh yes.  

It was a cycle of taking responsibility when it served a purpose, and then denial followed by abuse.

He doesn't want help even though he knows he has major issues.  Some of that is shame-based.  Some of that is denial. But what it really kinda boils down to is he believes that he just needs to find the right shoe that fits (a partner who will tolerate it) and then, everyone else (all of his previous partners) are to blame because look! this one is sticking around.  

Blissful "thank goddess I left" Camper

[corraline]

my experience too blissful. yes and thank goodness we left.

[blissful_camper]

my experience too blissful. yes and thank goodness we left.

 corraline

[blissful_camper]

     

Also in regards to what Willy had to say I just don't get it either now that I've been out and away from the BPD relationship loop why someone would truly want to be with these people in a committed relationship.     If you are having to constantly detach yourself from your partner that you love then really what is the point of the whole relationship?     A true loving and lasting relationship works toward attachment in a non smothering  non cling on way in its own due time, not detachment

Good question.  I don't get it either. 

My ex dangled carrots.  It kept his partners hopeful and those women stuck it out for years.  (Except for me  ).   Just a thought. 

Blissful "proud of herself for leaving" Camper

[corraline]

Blissful "proud of herself for leaving" Camper

so loving it !

[corraline]

there's a thread with a funny idea about a nonBPD dating site.

i think i will start a non BPD cheer leading squad instead !

[blissful_camper]

Blissful "proud of herself for leaving" Camper

so loving it !

Whew!  It was a long year.   

[Narellan]

Mine saw a pattern. He told me in reference of our relationship "without knowing it you have helped me leave behind problems I've been battling with on my own for my whole life"

When we split a couple weeks later he then told my friend " I guess now she will just move on to the next guy and start another cycle".  projection.

I don't do that, but he does and has his whole life.

I didn't help him leave behind his problems.

But both of these comments show me he's aware he has BPD.

[laelle]

My exbf understood perfectly his own illness.  He is the one who told me that he was BPD.  In my experience, they understand, but are really unable to react any differently.

You are their pain reliever and they need that pain relief to keep them from having to deal with some deep emotions that challenge their very existence. 

Sometimes you are their savior and sometimes you are their enemy.  They need you to be both.

You cant be everything to someone and still be yourself.  The ironic part of it all is that we try to be that everything for them, and are eventually devalued and discarded anyway.

[sirhero]

They definitely(some) see a pattern. My ex, in moments of clarity, knew she had problems and knew she was the source of many issues in her life. The thing is, they can't control their actions. She has told me during these lucid moments that she never tried to hurt me or anyone that she cares about deeply and the things she says or does that are hurtful she never means. She just can't control herself. Sadly that wasn't enough to keep our relationship going, but it did help me understand her a bit better. So yes I do think they see a pattern, some more than others. Remember not all of our exes are the same.

[kba1969]

Willy I think you're absolutely right about their shame.  My exBF had a lot of shame and guilt and he repressed it with every fiber of his being.  Anything that made him acknowledge that would be too big of a threat to his self image.  That's why when I got really mad after break up #2 and called him on a lot of the crap he'd done and his behaviors I really thought I'd be painted black for-evah! 

I called my X out on all she did as well as naming all the guys that I knew she was with.  I think I'm being painted black and have been before.  Are you saying I won't be black forever?  I kinda like being painted black, it's helped me stay NC for day 8 today   Yay for me!

[Narellan]

No you may not be painted black forever. I was black a few times then white and recycled 4 times. I think I'm still black as its 10 weeks NC today the longest time ever and he's moved on bagging me to my friend. It's easier to be black if you want to stay NC, but I'm petrified when he splits me white he's going to pursue for a recycle. I'm not going back this time.

[BorisAcusio]

Willy I think you're absolutely right about their shame.  My exBF had a lot of shame and guilt and he repressed it with every fiber of his being.  Anything that made him acknowledge that would be too big of a threat to his self image.  That's why when I got really mad after break up #2 and called him on a lot of the crap he'd done and his behaviors I really thought I'd be painted black for-evah! 

I called my X out on all she did as well as naming all the guys that I knew she was with.  I think I'm being painted black and have been before.  Are you saying I won't be black forever?  I kinda like being painted black, it's helped me stay NC for day 8 today   Yay for me!

Lot of shame? More than you will ever feel. Guilt? The very definition of splitting excludes the possibility of experiencing guilt. Repression is in fact, a more advanced, higher level defence mechanism, alien to pwBPD.

[NotASnowflake]

Interesting thread.  

My ex was in 'I'm going to fix myself mode' when our relationship began.  He openly admitted that he knew his issues and patterns, knew that what he brought to the table was destructive, and that all of his relationships were basically the same (unhealthy) due to him.  Taking responsibility was one of the tools that he used to suck me in, and feel sorry for him.  

Yeah, I got this one too. According to her when we met, all of her previous relationships ended because she was a b___, but she was working on the problem. That's been 15 years ago and now she says she's "making progress". Even though the mood swings are happening more frequently and more intensely right now than perhaps ever in our relationship and she has exploded on her family and created chaos there too. But she doesn't see that because I'm the crazy one, her family's all crazy. It's everyone else except her.

I just was looking through the 'staying board'. Holy ___. Have a look at some of those threads. Sure. Some seem to have some 'success' (i.e. they don't have raging screaming matches every day). But most of them are stories of people trying to bash their heads against a brick wall exactly for this reason. Their partners can't see the patterns, can't take ownership of what they are bringing to the table, constantly have circular arguments, constant drama, rages for no apparent reason, and, from what I can tell... . a huge break down in self-esteem on the part of the 'nons'. So many of them are trying to practice 'detachment' from these weird cycles. Seems to weird to me. Why would you want to be in a relationship with someone that you had to actively and constantly 'detach' from. Why be in the relationship at all? Isn't that the whole point of being in a relationship? To feel attachment? So weird.

Yeah, I'm currently on the undecided board. But every time I read the staying board, this is what I see and I don't know if I can handle this. One post said that it's basically accepting a relationship that is more like 80/20 (or worse) rather than a 50/50 relationship. I know that marriage is tough and it takes work, but it's not supposed to be this hard.

[Lion Fire]

 my ex could not see a pattern.

She has been diagnosed with BPD and also sectioned after an attempted suicide last year. I even went with her to a counseling session where she and two professionals openly spoke about her BPD. She said she was on top of things and one of the shrinks agreed. I had to contain myself from shaking my head and intervening. She is so bright, charming and articulate she could sell anything to anyone, me included 

She would reflect regularly... . this would always be the same. She would identify the trigger and then work out why it was triggering her and then change/cut out/leave the trigger whether that be a job, a friend, food, a place or partner... . whatever... . She would often talk about having regularly purged toxic people out of her life over the years. All of her boyfriends had been users, wasters and abusers too 

She talked an amazing game. She has self help books and spiritual literature and paraphernalia wall to wall in her home. She's done countless mindfulness retreats and courses, cleansing processes and practices Reiki. Her ambition is to be a psychotherapist smh ! She meditates & prays daily. I mean, on the surface she should be the female equivalent of the Dalai Lama  In my state of fantasy I believed she was an enlightened soul at one stage 

I first met her in a 12 step fellowship. She told me in Feb that she'd been 9 years clean and sober. Turns out she's been drinking occasionally for that whole period because she "doesn't have issues with alcohol". I asked her why she attended so many 12 step meetings over the years and she couldn't really answer me. She had problems with people there too so would hop around groups to "avoid toxic people"

she floats from branch to branch like a butterfly and never sticks with anything. I first mistook this for curiosity but know I know she just can't hold anything down for long.

No, she doesn't see a pattern but is very swift at spotting patterns and defects in others, perhaps she'll be a brilliant psychotherapist after all 

[lemon flower]

yes, I think they can see a pattern: precisely; they see a pattern of failures... .

my ex blames himself for having ruined all his former r/ships (including the last one with me) and generally blames himself for all the wrong desisions he took in his life.

but as several people mentioned here above, blaming himself and feeling miserable doesn't prevent him for following the same path all over again, as he is always driven by the same fear (of being alone) and keeps on struggling with his poor emotional intelligence, the dysregulations and his disordered thinking patterns... .

I know he's trying really hard to understand what goes wrong every time but his thoughts are too blurred... .

[kba1969]

yes, I think they can see a pattern: precisely; they see a pattern of failures... .

my ex blames himself for having ruined all his former r/ships (including the last one with me) and generally blames himself for all the wrong desisions he took in his life.

but as several people mentioned here above, blaming himself and feeling miserable doesn't prevent him for following the same path all over again, as he is always driven by the same fear (of being alone) and keeps on struggling with his poor emotional intelligence, the dysregulations and his disordered thinking patterns... .

I know he's trying really hard to understand what goes wrong every time but his thoughts are too blurred... .

That's gotta be a hard life to live, my x apologized to me for screwing everything up.  I feel that she says that to me and me only though for I have seen signs of her not being truthful with others about what really happened with us.  I personally wouldn't want to tell someone I slept with 5 people or more and ruined a really nice guys (me) life, temporarily of course. 

[antjs]

my exBPD is 29 years old. She has 3 ex-fiances, 1 ex-husband, 4 ex-boyfriends and 2 ABORTIONS. she victimized herself during the idealization phase and did not take any responsibility for it. When devaluation phase started i knew why it did not work with all these guys (she was even Triangulation with her exbf during the devaluation phase). During break-up i faced her over text with all her abuse, dominance, Triangulation, gas-lighting, daddy issues, mood swings, promiscuity. I even sent her some articles about BPD. she painted me black of course and gave me the silent treatment. These BPDs u can not win an argument with them using logical or rationale. to be honest u can not win with them at all.