validation vs. manipulation

[leza]

My dd22 is self supportive and not as bad as some however, in her needing validation I fear she may actually be manipulating. How do I know where to find the balance. I am on a fixed income and can't help her much but I do help where I can.  Like car insurance. I find her wanting extra things - although cheap -it leaves me wondering are these extra things necessary for her to feel my love or just her way of manipulating me?  I love her very much and would do anything I can for her but, at the same time I do not want to stumble her. Nor do I want to feed into this manipulating process.  Help me find the balance.  Her situation is she's attending college full time and working a full time job. She makes enough money for extra curricular activities but cannot pay her car payment, which she is always happy for me to pay. I have decided to 'just let it be' meaning either she pays the payment or it doesn't get paid.  Is this good or bad?

   

Also she is recycling bf. This breaks my heart, Is there anyway that I can help her? Get her attention?  Help her see what she is doing?  I appreciate any help, thx.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[hopeangel]

Hi Leza!

An awful lot of BPD behaviour comes across as manipulative and I too have given more than I could afford in the past due to the pressure of these sort of behaviours. 

After reading Valarie Porr's book 'overcoming BPD' I do now realise that the person with BPD is not intending to manipulate as much as they have not developed the executive skill necessary for adult life so they lean on us heavily long after it is still appropriate.  I have learned that, although not done deliberately, (they usually feel they desperately need our help!) it is still not the best thing to give them everything they say they need as that is 'enabling' ie taking away their opportunity to learn to get these things for themselves, I was so guilty of this, I just thought 'oh my poor dd is unwell and I am fine so I will help her' now I understand I was not helping her, quite the opposite I was enabling and stunting her ability to learn to be independent.

Now that the penny has dropped with me I have (mostly) stopped enabling, like you have yourself, and dd is finding ways to get things for herself!

I think validation is not so much helping them get things it is more about respecting their feelings (however strange we think those feelings) and communicating this understanding to them so they feel less isolated in the strange world of BPD.

In my opinion you are doing the right thing by letting your dd work this payment out for herself. 

It is very hard for us parents to be tough as the maternal bond makes it so difficult to stand back a little! 

[leza]

I understand giving her the chance to get her independence and I respect that.  But my situation is my dd is my 3rd child, each poss. a BPD. The other 2 no longer communicate with me at all for 10+ years. I feel this is my last hope to have one of my children in my life.  I desperately do not want to permanently sever these ties, but do want the best for her. I feel it's such a 'delicate dance'.  At this point, I'm almost afraid to communicate with her because:  what if I forget the communication skills and say the wrong thing,  what if she changes her phone number and I  lose touch,  I do not know where she lives now - she just moved in with another new bf.  The fear of loss is high.  I do not want to stumble her but, it's been such a difficult road with her siblings, I wish I had found this site sooner, things would have been better.

[hopeangel]

I understand Leza and this is so very hard on you!

You are currently in the FOG - Fear, Obligation and Guilt, generally brought about by close proximity to a person we love with BPD.

We have to get out of the FOG in order to operate effectively because otherwise we cannot help ourselves or our person with BPD whilst we are lost in the FOG.

It IS a delicate dance and I do appreciate your fear of losing the contact with this one remaining child with BPD, no wonder you feel so discouraged, I was exactly the same when having just lost both my parents my dd's BPD became full-blown - I felt I couldn't bear to lose another family member and my boundaries were non-existant, I made her worse as well because she needed the security of me knowing what was what and being strong - she even said this a few times ie 'you don't show me right from wrong, you don't teach me how to behave!' I was too scared to!

I get where you are coming from and, take it fro me, it's very hard to make the transition but the first step is to read and read and learn all the lessons on the right of this board, read about the tools and just take it all in, it will become second nature to respond in an effective way and SOMETIMES you get to see some improvements, other times not so much but it is SO worth it for the times you feel you can make a difference.

I know you wish you found us earlier but its never too late to effect change, I know because I DID change and then I saw change in dd in response, not straight away and you do suffer extinction bursts of bad behaviour but you get enough success to make it worth persevering with!  I say this but I do know every child is different and an individual who happens to have BPD but I really feel the tools and skills can change things around for us and then, instead of being afraid in the FOG, we can see where we can take back some of our own power and see a little more clearly how we can help to heal the relationship.

Validation is key to communicating in your dd's own language, she cannot hear you if she doesn't feel heard and these are the skills we need to learn since they do not come naturally to us nonBPDs - indeed why would we know these things?

We are here for you now and I swear its never too late!

Maybe you could reach out to your other children in a small way when you have got the hang of the communication skills? You CAN learn them, I know its hard it just takes time but they sink in eventually and then they are there for you to use! Never give up - its so worth it when you get some results however small!

[jellibeans]

Dear  leza

I really think hopeangel has given you some good advise. I am going to post some links at the end of my post for your to read regarding the FOG etc... .

Do you think you might approach this problem in steps? Maybe a compromise of sorts? How about offering to pay half for the next 3 months then decrease to 1/3 for another 3 months until you stop all help? Is that something that you think could work? or maybe something else similar so the sudden shock doesn't hit your dd too hard?


Workshop - US: What it means to be in the “FOG”

US: Ragephobia - the fear of being raged upon

US: as victims

hang in there leza... . you are a kind and loving parent.

[leza]

Thx very much, hopeangel & jellibeans, I am taking notes, will read related articles, and pray for patience in myself as well as dd.  How long does it usually take a person to 'grasp' this new language? 

One of my biggest fears in setting boundaries was that she would just step out of my life forever, but I agree that if I 'wean' from helping her, it should be a smoother transition.  Sounds like good advice, and soo simple, I can't believe I didn't think of it myself.

Now the next big question, how do I get her to look at BPD related info?

[jellibeans]

leza

It is my experience that it is better to let the professional handle that if possible. My dd16 has asked me several times about BPD and I always tell her to talk to her T about it. I feel I will come off as being too judgemental and negative ... . You might be able to buy a book and leave it out somewhere for her to see. That might catch her interest... .

[leza]

Thanks for your direction, I had dinner tonight with dd. It went well, I give myself a B+   I was validating, patient, constantly looking for positive things to discuss and focusing on her interests. She opened up and shared. I noticed throughout the conversation that her eyes were fixed on mine. Like she was constantly reading my mind. I remembered reading how BPDd read your emotions and 'I saw it'. I remained calm, focused on breathing and tried to center the entire evening around her.

My reward was I got to spend time with my dd, I know she's ok, she has achievable goals' - at least today she does.  When she tried to 'tell me what I need to do in order to help her' I just said things like 'we'll see' or  'I'll think about that'.

I know this is all just getting started and there are land mines ahead, I probably set a few tonight and am not even aware of it yet. I'll deal with those as they blow up.

This was one of the best evenings we've shared in a while. 'Whew' I really feel I can take a deep breath now and start planning for the next move... . setting boundaries!  Keep giving me advice... . I'm gonna need it ... . for probably... . forever!  Thanks lots

[hopeangel]

That is very good news leza! Well done! 

Its wonderful to see the tools working it really gives a bit of hope that we can make a real difference over time!

I too have noticed my dd looking deep into my eyes kind of paranoid and questioning my intentions, it is quite unnerving but you just gotta do what you did and press on with what you are saying!  You did great!   

[madmom]

Good job on the dinner with dd.  My husband and I recently did the same thing with our dd, she thought she needed money for rent (she had let a "friend" borrow money and guess what, they didn't pay it back so we used empathy about that situation instead of saying I told you so) so she came to us and asked us for some money we "hold" for her. (more about that in a little bit) Anyway, we listened and instead of just handing the money over like we usually do we said, something about not sure if we could do that, we needed a little time to think about it and wanted to know what her plan was so that this didn't keep happening.  We told her we would be available two evenings from then to talk about it again.  Well, we got a text the day we were to meet again that said she was going to work it out on her own.  We waited and didn't interfere (living in the FOG is something we are guilty of)  Guess what, she worked it out.  She realized that she did have the money, it was just going to be pretty tight for a few weeks, but that she could make all her bills work.  We talked about it, and it gave me lots of opportunity to validate and praise.  My daughter has a huge problem with lying, so I hope she is telling me the truth, but this time I think she is.  Anyway about the money we "hold" for her, we have been walking this BPD path for a very long time, and one of the things that reoccurs is her holding a job, having money in various accounts, such as a Christmas Club, vacation savings etc.  It all goes along well for several months and then she looses the job or gives all of her extra money away to help a "friend".  She is always so sure they will pay her back, that they are trustworthy people etc. and then of course, it usually goes south and she is stuck.  A few years ago, she agreed to start giving us a small sum of money each month that we put in a savings account for her, that her name isn't on.  This is "emergency" money for her.  We control it as she does accept that she doesn't manage money well and may need it.  We are lucky that she is willing and accepting of doing this and trusts us to make good judgements about when she can/will need to use it.  Anyway, just thought you might want to hear another story and that it is ok to say no to requests. Like you, we pay for a some things, like a cell phone so that we know she has one and can reach out in an emergency, maybe that is enabling, but right now for me it is peace of mind.  Good luck, one thing I have definitely found is that this is a good place to get ideas and support. 

[leza]

OK, here we go... . Next step.  I text her to see how she was today... . interestingly she ask me the same... . not her norm. She's just all over me. I feel that she senses 'something is up'.  She can smell my fear!

During dinner, she brought up the fact that she can't pay her bills -several times, but I just let it go on by - without responding - yea me! 

But today, I reflect on the conversation and realize she mentioned going out to clubs, partying with friends, etc.  WHY do I see the obvious... . and she doesn't!  Money only goes so far.  So she tells me how her bills are all late.  A few minutes later she tells me about her weekend plans. Before learning about BPD, I would have just responded - "pay your bills", there would have been and explosion, etc.   So now I am here wondering... . ok... . now what?  I am trying to be 'cool' and under control but... . Do I just wait until she just 'gets it' that I'm not going to offer money... .    Or do I actually address this issue with her.  In a very tactful way?  One bill at a time? 

Help? 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

I think maybe SET is a good place to start with... . when she brings it up I would ask questions about what she is going to do... . try to let her take responsiblity for solving her bill problems... . maybe ask if she needs help with writing up a budget so she can prevent being in this same position again... . maybe there are some webistes that have resource for people trying to keep within a budget... . you are doing great... . keep it up.

[mimis]

Leeza, let me know how you made out. I have same problem with my uBPDD- always asking me to help her out with her bills and I crumble each time.

[leza]

Thanks jellibeans, I will refer back to SET and get ready for next,next event.

dd says she had already spoke to person at her bank to do a budget... . yea right... The numbers she told me on her budget were ridiculous!  I offered to help her do a budget and she says  "Mom ... . there just isn't anymore money, I need help paying ... . F------ Bill"  It's very strongly implied that I'm just supposed to hop into the argument and say, sure I'm happy to help!

In the past when she needed help, she would drop subtle hints and thank me for any help.

Is she so aggressive now because the BPD is getting worse or is it because she is under so much pressure with school/work/bf?  Or is she getting so aggressive because she feels me pulling away? 

[hopeangel]

I would think maybe the latter, when they feel you withdraw the usual help there is usually what is known as 'extinction burst' which is basically a last big push to get you to comply.

It is very tempting at that point to cave in under the pressure for a quiet life however, if you do, you lose all the ground you gained so just weather the storm and eventually it will subside and she will then learn that you are not going to do it anymore.

I have found it very helpful to communicate just how much help I AM prepared to give and where I am drawing the line and why (because I can't afford everything you want and also you need to learn to get things for yourself as an adult!), then stick to these boundaries unless YOU chose to offer something else to them (if you do, explain why you want to help out and the reason why its different in this instance, otherwise its business as usual to them and back to the drawing board for you!  )

[leza]

I am trying so hard to understand all this 'new' language that I am physically getting a headache - is this normal? I have to put all this down and go outside and just 'breathe' and do something physical. 

How long does it usually take a person to 'get a grasp' on this new concept?

In reading the causes of BPD, I'm trying to look back at ... . my life, and what did I do to mess up my children.  As a child, I was raised by wolves... . no joke!  I know all this is subconscious, but as a young adult, I went to college, studies psychology, got into self-help books - I KNEW something wasn't right in my head... . just not sure what it was. But whatever it was, I was determined to Fix it... . I was NOT gonna mess up my kids life like my parents messed me up!  So obviously this runs deeper that I could fix with the tools available 25 years ago.  When was BPD recognized?  Is there any way this could be inherited?  I'm reading articles on this site everyday, I'm ready for the cure... .  I wish it were that simple, one thing I have learned is that 'things worth having are worth working for'... . I'm working hard and I really appreciate all the advice, and experiences of everyone. Plz. hang in there with me.

[jellibeans]

Leza

Please don't beat yourself up and search for answers on how this could have happened to your dd. That is a waste of energy and does nothing to improve your current position.

Here are some links that look at self discovery... . That I good in a sense that we look at our part of the problem and how we can change our responses and improve our relationships.

Take a hard and honest look at yourself:

TEST: What's your conflict style?

Peter Neidig, a psychologist who studied spousal abuse and developed an inyeresting system for identifying conflict styles. There are 4 styles that fall on two scales: relationship goals and personal goals. What is your style? How is it affecting your family?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=117339.0

TEST: Personality traits

The Bowen Institute studies the lineage of problems in families.  The current prevalence estimate is that about 20 percent of the U.S. population are affected by mental disorders during a given year. We are often the last to see itin ourselves. Seeing it is mopre than half the battle to dealing with it.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128254.0

Young Schema Questionnaire (YSQ)

Pain is what drives us to break through and get beyond our own coping mechanisms and search for the real answer to our struggles - to fix what is defective and live a life that is not marred by a fixable emotional defect. But getting past the protective coping is the key... . and hard.  We can all see how a pwBPD struggles to do this.  We struggle too.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=202548.0

Are we victims?

A tough question when it comes to our children. Who's really the victim? Who has the power? If we believe that we are helpless, does that prevent us from working towards effective change? As a victim, it is easy to just give up and stop trying.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=114232.0

Are we Co-Dependent?

How often have you tried to "fix" someone else's mistake? How many times do you put your needs aside because your SO seem more important or because you fear how they would respond? It's easy to get sucked into the care-taking role and think that you are doing the right thing.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0

These articles I think are very helpful... . I especially liked the victim article... . at one point I realized that was a role I was chosing for myself. Look to the right a lesson 2 you don't have to read all this in one day... . there are also videos that you can watch and I have found that to be just as helpful. We are here for you!

[hopeangel]

I have found out i have had classic co-dependent traits all my life!

The thing is we all have something but it isnt necessarily that we did wrong we are just all compatable with different people but unfortunately our children are what they are and a child with BPD is sometimes in need of things we haven't known how to give!  How are we to know?

Valerie Porr explains BPD better than any other literature I have read! It is a biological disorder and has a tendency to be passed down genetically but then upbringing can trigger this predisposition into the illness but when she says upbringing, it doesn't mean we were cruel or bad parents for our other children it is just that we did not identify the 'different' BPD child (and neither did anyone else!) therefore we did NOT know they had special needs and we would need different parenting skills for them.

All we need to do is move forward and examine what we now need to change, not dwell on the fact we did not do these years ago, guilt and shame only leads us back into the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) and we cannot help from there!

jellibeans is right and that is wonderful information and if we can identify  ourselves and own our own issues we can move towards a more healing relationship!  Knowledge is the key!

It really seeps into your brain gradually as you educate yourself but then  you can understand it! I wouldn't rush this process, just plod on and read and learn then take a break then come back to it and it goes in eventually!

You are doing so well and there is no need at all to beat yourself up! If you were a bad uncaring mother you wouldn't be here! You will get there in your own time and that's fine!

[lever.]

Hello Leza

I have been looking at your thread. I do sympathize with your situation-it sounds like you are walking a tightrope- desperately wanting to maintain a relationship with your daughter but wanting to set appropriate boundaries.

My experience is different from yours as I have quite a positive relationship with my other adult child. However I have also been in fear of loosing my relationship with my daughter and young grandchildren.

I did get to a point where I was fearful of setting any boundaries and was doing everything she wanted in order to avoid this. Before she had the children I was fearful of her rages and suicide attempts, now I was afraid of loosing the relationship.

What I have found most helpful is to use lots of validation ( as you have been doing) to try to improve our relationship but also to let go of the fear. I think things have been better since she is aware that she can no longer manipulate me. If the relationship goes I will be distressed but will leave the ball in her court.

It must be extremely distressing to have little contact with more than one child and I am reluctant to give advice but I do really feel for you and I hope you find the information and support on here helpful  I also have found Valerie Porr's book to be very helpful and would like to support others in recommending it

[leza]

I am happy to report that VALIDATION works!  In texting with my dd, I used the line of thought that 'when I was in college, I was so poor I couldn't afford to change my mind' & 'all I ate all day long was a pack of crackers'... this is true so I am not lying.  But I told her how fondly I look back on my college days because although my finances were tight, I made things work out.  Also, that it was a satisfying feeling knowing that I did good.   I told her that I want her to be able to look back and be proud of herself. 

After commending her over and over, I was afraid that she would 'see thru' my line of reasoning, but she agreed with me.  It did take a few days and I was so afraid that I wouldn't hear from her for a while... . but,she called, we talked, and it was all positive.

Thanks to all you wonderful people, I appreciate you very much.

This ball game is just getting started, so stay close.

[madmom]

Great job!   Any little success (yours and/or your daughters) is reason to continue to hope.  I am glad things went well and that you are finding the support you need on your journey!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Oh, Leza, I'd like to join tr in congratulating you on your success 

It's wonderful when we use the tools and techniques we learn about and talk about on this site, and find them to make things--even if just a little--better!

What I found is that the first time I tentatively (and clumsily!) used S.E.T. with my BPD son, and headed off a rage that would've happened for sure had I not used it, I was stunned and pleasantly surprised. And it gave me the motivation to read more, learn more, and use Validation and S.E.T. from then on out. And use it for everyone else in my family ( BPD or not   ). And you know what? I think I'm a better, nicer person because of it... .