BPD & Remorse

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is how I observed my uBPDstbxw showed remorse during this time in our relationship:



[1-6 Months]           - N/A, I can't remember any major incidents during this time to take note of.

[6 Months - 1 year]  - Many "sorry" and many tears and many "I wont do it agains" and "Your such a good person". Seemed to be for the most part very honest and heartfelt apologies.

[1-2 years]             - A huge increase of "sorry" and expressed remorse. Estimated increase of "sorry" multiplied x-10 more than in previous period. This meant the acting out and raging multiplied x-10 also. During this time apologies seemed to be very noticeable and less heartfelt. Lame "sorry" was expressed such as "sorry you got hurt" & "sorry it bothered you". There were still times in 1-2 year mark that it seemed heartfelt but this was rare during that time.

[2-4 years]              - Sorry was a word during this period very rarely heard. Very little remorse could be clearly seen. There were times after being hit or some wild rage she would just sit and watch tv like I don't exist and "the hell with him" attitude by her. At this point sorry is replaced by "you made me do it" & "you deserve it" or there would basically be no comment given. Just a "hit and run" so to speak. The acting out and rage during this period multiplied by another x-20 from the previous year. Extremely little remorse shown.

4yr[Breakup Day]      -[9 Months NC] "Your the devil,bad,not a man,you are cra*p" and then thrown away with little to no emotion, the only emotion a seething rage. No remorse or contact for the next 9 Months.

I would be interested in learning from members of the [Leaving Board] - What were your observations of remorse in your ex?

Peace,

AO

[AwakenedOne]

This is how I observed my uBPDstbxw showed remorse during this time in our relationship:



[1-6 Months]           - N/A, I can't remember any major incidents during this time to take note of.

[6 Months - 1 year]  - Many "sorry" and many tears and many "I wont do it agains" and "Your such a good person". Seemed to be for the most part very honest and heartfelt apologies.

[1-2 years]             - A huge increase of "sorry" and expressed remorse. Estimated increase of "sorry" multiplied x-10 more than in previous period. This meant the acting out and raging multiplied x-10 also. During this time apologies seemed to be very noticeable and less heartfelt. Lame "sorry" was expressed such as "sorry you got hurt" & "sorry it bothered you". There were still times in 1-2 year mark that it seemed heartfelt but this was rare during that time.

[2-4 years]              - Sorry was a word during this period very rarely heard. Very little remorse could be clearly seen. There were times after being hit or some wild rage she would just sit and watch tv like I don't exist and "the hell with him" attitude by her. At this point sorry is replaced by "you made me do it" & "you deserve it" or there would basically be no comment given. Just a "hit and run" so to speak. The acting out and rage during this period multiplied by another x-20 from the previous year. Extremely little remorse shown.

4yr[Breakup Day]      -[9 Months NC] "Your the devil,bad,not a man,you are cra*p" and then thrown away with little to no emotion, the only emotion a seething rage. No remorse or contact for the next 9 Months.

I would be interested in learning from members of the [Leaving Board] - What were your observations of remorse in your ex?

Peace,

AO

[fromheeltoheal]

Wow Awakened, I guess we were on the speedy path; we cycled through all of the phases you mention in less than a year.  The last thing she said to me, as I was leaving her for good, was "I'm sorry you're not having a good time right now", after a solid week of abuse, rages, general overall causticness, with the attitude that I was just supposed to deal with it, and absolutely no awareness of or concern for what I was feeling.  Whoa.  Flashback.

I did get a somewhat remorseful email about 8 months later, apologies and all, although they were outweighed by the obvious and barely cloaked devaluations and manipulations.  Thank god I didn't respond; it was obvious where that would have gone.  It was impossible to take anything she said sincerely by then, too many hidden agendas, lies, facades, she only let loose with the real truth when she thought it would get her something she wanted.

[Infared]

I was in for 5years... . it was all good the mirroring, her family loved me etc. ... . there was low self esteem and now I see clearly how she had no sense of self... . she needed me for her identity... . but I'm pretty sure she was also cheating on me for the last 2 years, but I had no clue. She was a master at lying & deceiving.  When she decided to run off with new hero, I was presented with a stranger that I never met and there has been absolutely no remorse from that point.  One day she just turned into someone else. She has her new prop and can openly revel in attempting to cause me pain. I have never seen anything like it?

If she is with him they act out in some caustic way to hurt me. Together?

They still do this years later. So bizarre.

If she is alone, she tries to walk up to me with this warm look on her face like we are still together(she is just trying to set the hook so she can abuse me)... . I NEVER let her get near me and I do WHATEVER I have to to have no contact. Some who don't understand say I am foolish to show my feelings... . but I know enough now that she is soo sick and I am protecting myself first and foremost and she only sees that I give her absolutely NO power over me.  NONE. EVER. I know it makes her crazy. BPD's cannot stand having no direct control, when they desire it.

I know that people here know exactly what  I am talking about. People who have not been with a BPD don't know what I am talking about... .

There is some kind of emotion going on with her that I have not engaged with her in any way for years... . but there is NEVER any sign of remorse. Not ever.

I am sure she never thinks that there is anything wrong with her behavior. Truly ill.

[Narellan]

I never heard the words I'm sorry. I was only with him for 4 months and recycled 3 times with declarations of how much he missed me, and what he had been going through. Kind of justifying his behaviour but never apologising for it.

NYE he ran out on me after sex at 7 pm, went home to his mum. I told him in a text he had made me feel cheap and I was upset. He said he can't handle the turmoil he feels. He needed to clear his head, get me out of his head.

A few months later it came up in conversations again, and he was quiet for a really long time, then said " I made a mistake" that was a breakthrough for me. Still not a sorry but the nearest thing I got to one.

A really bad experience happened early on in our relationship. We were out at the beach in an isolated place, and he rolled himself a joint, and a small one for me. I don't take drugs ever, but a couple of times had a drag of one of his. I thought that's what he gave me and I smoked it pretty quickly, a bit paranoid we were going to get caught. He panicked when he knew i had already smoked it so fast. I then had an overdose which made me feel like I was going to die. I was paralysed and hallucinating. To cut a long story short, after an hour I could move again with help, and then I started vomiting I was soo sick. He held my hair back from my face and said " I'm so sorry you had a bad reaction to that Narellan" no sorry I nearly killed you by giving you an unknown substance without you knowing!

The weirdest thing about that experience was that I felt like he SAVED my life by talking me through it all and looking after me. He ditched me and went NC for 2 weeks after that. Said it had completely freaked him out. But never took any responsibility for it .

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

[1-2 years]             - A huge increase of "sorry" and expressed remorse. Estimated increase of "sorry" multiplied x-10 more than in previous period. This meant the acting out and raging multiplied x-10 also. During this time apologies seemed to be very noticeable and less heartfelt. Lame "sorry" was expressed such as "sorry you got hurt" & "sorry it bothered you". There were still times in 1-2 year mark that it seemed heartfelt but this was rare during that time.

This is what happened to me exactly.

The next morning after she was all sobered up (maybe drunk still). I used to go to work and she would send me an email saying " I am so sorry about last night, you deserve better, I love you" . She did it too often that I just didn't say anything anymore.  Was so frustratring, but I knew that if I confronted her, I was going to open a big can of worms. It is sad when I think about it, but I almost like I ignored it to avoid conflicts with her... .


There is a ton more of stuff I could tell on here, but I am actually skeptical about it because you nver dknow if she may be on this boards as well. Dont you guys wonder? if you're ex is on these boards as well and give your Identity away? maybe I am being too paranoid, but I do wonder.

[Narellan]

I feel very sure my exBPD would never be on this site. I was paranoid at one point that my former best friend( short term replacement ) would find me on here as I'd mentioned it once to her. She wasn't really listening to me though she was texting on her phone. Probably texting him now I think about it. :/

They would have to do a lot of reading across the boards to find us.

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

Hi Narellan,

Yeah, It would be such conicidence... I wonder if some of the Ex's Exes are here too hehe... .

[Narellan]

Haha maybe... My posts are very open so if anyone was looking , they would identify me pretty easily. However, I've never told anyone about that beach story for obvious reasons!

[Tausk]

For all these behaviors that seem confusing, I have to bring myself to remember that my ex is still the terrified, abused, three year old, with limited abilities, and who is living the very nightmare of her existence with the Disorder.

My exgfwBPD never really felt remorse or guilt.  She only felt shame, which was either repressed or erupted upon me through anger and projection.  Shame is how we feel about ourselves, Guilt/Remorse is how we feel about our actions.   Shame is a baser emotion than guilt. Remorse is a higher emotion that involves self awareness and and the ability to take responsibility for one's actions. 

When a want is the same as a need, as with my exgfwBPD, there is no guilt or responsibility, only shame.  If you stole a loaf of bread because your children were starving, you might feel shame, but probably limited guilt because you were acting on a need.   For my ex, the want and the need were the same. 

Or in another perspective, it's like a three year who impulsively steals a cookie and gets caught.  While being scolded, he may say he's sorry, but he really doesn't have the capacity to take responsibility for his actions.  He saw the cookie and at three years old he doesn't have the impulse control and executive decision making capacity to deny his desires.  His want for the cookie is the same as his need for the cookie.  And he does not have the ability to take responsibility for his actions.  But he feels great shame at her mother's scolding.

So he'll say he's sorry if he's forced to say it.  But inside he's feeling towards his mother is,, "You are mean and abusive, and I hate you!"  And he's really only sorry for getting caught or that you are mad.  Thus the, "I'm sorry your are mad" responses that so many of us have heard. 

The limited capacity for remorse,  self -responsibility, empathy essentially means that my ex will never change.  The capacity for self reflection and real adaptation are simply not within her.  Believe me we tried.  We went to counseling and learned ways to apologize.  But in the end she couldn't do it.   

It's not that she didn't want to apologize and take responsibility.   It's that she simply didn't have the capacity to take responsibility for her actions.  Her emotional development was arrested at the toddler age, and the pathways were never developed.  Emotional growth is simply beyond her.

The Disorder is a B___.  The Disorder is more powerful than me. The Disorder does not want happiness.  The Disorder always wins. 

Sadness.

T

[Narellan]

Tausk Thankyou for your post. The last section of statements about the disorder I took a photo of on my phone to remind me. So true and so sad. And so devastating to so many lives.

[BorisAcusio]

For all these behaviors that seem confusing, I have to bring myself to remember that my ex is still the terrified, abused, three year old, with limited abilities, and who is living the very nightmare of her existence with the Disorder.

My exgfwBPD never really felt remorse or guilt.  She only felt shame, which was either repressed or erupted upon me through anger and projection.  Shame is how we feel about ourselves, Guilt/Remorse is how we feel about our actions.   Shame is a baser emotion than guilt. Remorse is a higher emotion that involves self awareness and and the ability to take responsibility for one's actions.  

When a want is the same as a need, as with my exgfwBPD, there is no guilt or responsibility, only shame.  If you stole a loaf of bread because your children were starving, you might feel shame, but probably limited guilt because you were acting on a need.   For my ex, the want and the need were the same.  

Or in another perspective, it's like a three year who impulsively steals a cookie and gets caught.  While being scolded, he may say he's sorry, but he really doesn't have the capacity to take responsibility for his actions.  He saw the cookie and at three years old he doesn't have the impulse control and executive decision making capacity to deny his desires.  His want for the cookie is the same as his need for the cookie.  And he does not have the ability to take responsibility for his actions.  But he feels great shame at her mother's scolding.

So he'll say he's sorry if he's forced to say it.  But inside he's feeling towards his mother is,, "You are mean and abusive, and I hate you!"  And he's really only sorry for getting caught or that you are mad.  Thus the, "I'm sorry your are mad" responses that so many of us have heard.  

The limited capacity for remorse,  self -responsibility, empathy essentially means that my ex will never change.  The capacity for self reflection and real adaptation are simply not within her.  Believe me we tried.  We went to counseling and learned ways to apologize.  But in the end she couldn't do it.  

It's not that she didn't want to apologize and take responsibility.   It's that she simply didn't have the capacity to take responsibility for her actions.  Her emotional development was arrested at the toddler age, and the pathways were never developed.  Emotional growth is simply beyond her.

The Disorder is a B___.  The Disorder is more powerful than me. The Disorder does not want happiness.  The Disorder always wins.  

Sadness.

T

I would make this post as a sticky. It's nicely summarize what modern psychology knows about BPD, while remaining perfectly understandable.

[Infared]

Thanks Tausk... . "It's not that she didn't want to apologize and take responsibility.   It's that she simply didn't have the capacity to take responsibility for her actions.  Her emotional development was arrested at the toddler age, and the pathways were never developed.  Emotional growth is simply beyond her. "

This is my repeated experience. I had to learn to expect exactly this and nothing more. If I expected more I was always disappointed and heartbroken. It repeatedly tore me up emotionally... . but it is what it is. It is the reality of the situation. Acceptance is key to my survival.

[Tolou]

I hadn't seen her almost 10 months, no contact by my choice, I left.  We worked together but she was out for that whole time because of the break-up... .

She told me she had gotten cancer, I felt so guilty for not going to be there for her.  When she returned to work, she basicly belittled me around the job making me out to be a ass.  One day we ended up talking, when asked her about had she was and the cancer... . she says "I lied, I was desperate"... . that I guess was the closest to an apology... . she then later in the conversation said she was going to therapy 3 times a week, and I must think she was a "3 year old" (her own words, maybe she was doing dbt?)... . then she asked if I wanted to "hangout"... . I said no, I was too scared that she might try harm herself again and I didn't want to be in that type of realtionship with anyone... . she put her head down sulking, said okay thanks, and walked away... . I desperately wanted to kiss her and hold and say I will be there for you, but she embarrassed me so much at work I couldn't risk any of that pain again.  that was July 2013, I see her 5 times a week and haven't said a word to her and try not to make any eye-contact when we cross paths... .

I don't know what she feels, but I'm sure I'm the mean and evil person that God brought into her life because I couldn't tolerate anymore of the suicide threats, dated for 3 months, knew her for 6, here I am two years later and I'm just happy she's stable, leaves me alone... . I worked hard on detachment emotionally, but it si a little harder for me since I have to see her all time... . I feel like an ass for not talking to her, or looking at her, but I never forget what I went through and that she almost took her life several times, I just can't live on the edge like that.  I know trigger her worst fears, made some mistakes too, but damn, I knew nothing of this disorder, and I feel content that I tried my best to help, it just wasn't enough. I agree she probbaly feels more shame and guilt than remorese, if anything at all.

[Lion Fire]

I got a few apologies but nothing that had real depth tbh:

- once after a heavy one way row, she tried to embrace me and I recoiled . She said with what seemed like genuine remorse " i have really hurt you, I've really damaged you... " This was fleeting and she followed this shortly after with "ok, it's time to move on... "

- she admitted to acting "disgustingly" one time... . I was surprised... . then she followed it with a justification that she had felt "cornered and trapped" by MY dysfunction and  and it was perhaps a misguided reaction but her way of not accepting MY emotional illness and putting her foot down to "unacceptable behaviour"

- the last time we had a meaningful telephone conversation a few weeks ago, she told me to go away and heal MY "core wounds and traumas" and she would be waiting for me to return to her a renewed man so that we could live our dream again. I said to her that terrible things had happened between us, reminded her of some things she did and said,  and there had been dreadful consequences and hurt caused. She became defensive and said " look, i'm sorry, OK"... . she went on to repeat the " I felt trapped and cornered" story.

It swung back to me.

So, there were some apologies, but never a heartfelt, hands up amend. She always rationalised her actions and turned the blame to my "core traumas", failings and inabilities in an intimite relationship... There was very little accountability.

[going places]

Remorse

noun

1.deep and painful regret for wrongdoing; compunction.

2. a sense of deep regret and guilt for some misdeed

Synonyms

1. contrition. See regret.

Based upon the definition in the dictionary?

My STBEXH showed none, zero, no remorse whatsoever.

EVER FOR ANYTHING.

I am not being a drama queen by exaggerating.

I mean never ever for anything ever in 24 years has he ever shown remorse.

He used the 'magic eraser' word "Sorry" (he thinks that when he says he's sorry, everything is magically erased, and it's all brand new like nothing happened) ALL THE TIME.

He even said "I know this is my fault".

See, he thought if he said "this is my fault, and I am sorry" to enough people they would turn on me and say "well, he did admit it and say he was sorry".

WRONG.

He's sorry, he got caught.

He's only trying to save face now.

I lived with the monster... . I know his game.

So no, there was NO remorse, only another scene in his 'act' using words from a script, not from his heart (because he doesn't have one).

THAT is why detaching has become easier.

KNOWING that everything was a 'show' and NOTHING was real stops all the rumination, the 'well what if's' and all that nonsense.

[55suns]

This is how I observed my uBPDstbxw showed remorse during this time in our relationship:



[1-6 Months]           - N/A, I can't remember any major incidents during this time to take note of.

[6 Months - 1 year]  - Many "sorry" and many tears and many "I wont do it agains" and "Your such a good person". Seemed to be for the most part very honest and heartfelt apologies.

[1-2 years]             - A huge increase of "sorry" and expressed remorse. Estimated increase of "sorry" multiplied x-10 more than in previous period. This meant the acting out and raging multiplied x-10 also. During this time apologies seemed to be very noticeable and less heartfelt. Lame "sorry" was expressed such as "sorry you got hurt" & "sorry it bothered you". There were still times in 1-2 year mark that it seemed heartfelt but this was rare during that time.

[2-4 years]              - Sorry was a word during this period very rarely heard. Very little remorse could be clearly seen. There were times after being hit or some wild rage she would just sit and watch tv like I don't exist and "the hell with him" attitude by her. At this point sorry is replaced by "you made me do it" & "you deserve it" or there would basically be no comment given. Just a "hit and run" so to speak. The acting out and rage during this period multiplied by another x-20 from the previous year. Extremely little remorse shown.

4yr[Breakup Day]      -[9 Months NC] "Your the devil,bad,not a man,you are cra*p" and then thrown away with little to no emotion, the only emotion a seething rage. No remorse or contact for the next 9 Months.

I would be interested in learning from members of the [Leaving Board] - What were your observations of remorse in your ex?

Peace,

AO

WOW!  This really mirrors my relationship with a few differences. We did have a lot of blowups in the first six months and she was very apologetic.

But yes, in the beginning (together for six years) she took most of the responsibility and would say sorry all of the time.  By the middle of the relationship she said she was sick of saying "sorry" and that I never did (not true) and needed to take responsibility.  By the end, she NEVER said sorry, or if she did it was a halfhearted aside.  Also, at the very end, she was convinced (and had me convinced) that everything was my fault. 

One other difference is that I am not universally painted black.  While I have been called every derogatory name/trait in the book, and I am labeled as a horrible husband and partner, I am also at once a great father and a good human being. 

Great post... . this kind of stuff reinforces that I was not the only one with a problem when I begin to doubt my ex has uBPD since she is so high functioning. 

[Ihope2]

I seem to think that my almost ex BPDh is in permanent victim mode.  From where he stands, everyone in his life has always wronged him.

I never heard him take responsibility for anything that had gone wrong in his past.  His childhood seems to have been extreme, abuse, incest, physical and emotional violence.  I seem to think his parents also had/have Personality Disorder. His mother seems to have been BPD for sure, and his father seems to be either APD or NPD.  

I wonder if the level of childhood/formative abuse and invalidation is correlated to a pwBPD's degree of inability to take responsibility?

In the short 11 months we were married, as much as I tried, I always ended up doing something wrong and he expected apologies on a daily basis from me.

And I apologised a lifetime's worth of apologies to him, although I would try and say things like "I am sorry that you think that, feel that way... . " and thus not take ownership upon myself for what "went wrong" for him.

The only time I saw regret (I won't call it remorse), is the last day he lived with me.  He was about to move out, and asked me to give him a lift as I was going out in my car.  Before he packed his bags into the car, he kneeled in front of the house with his forehead against the front of the house, with tears streaming down his face.  My heart just broke for him to see him like that, but I retreated back into the garden to give him a moment to compose himself and say his goodbyes to the house he had called home for 11 months of his life.  I know now that it was probably regret that this latest opportunity in his life had been messed up and would not be available to him any more.  He was losing a roof over his head, a secure source of food, TV to watch, pets to play with, hot showers, medical insurance, the use of a car.  And all of it was free of charge, since he had basically been homeless when we met and did not have an income... .

I tend to agree that a pwBPD is probably not capable of empathy and remorse.  Perhaps those who have not had such an abusive, invalidating childhood, and who have some level of self-awareness and go through comprehensive therapy like DBT, do develop a belated ability to feel true empathy and the ability to reflect on themselves and take responsibility for their own behaviour. But I think these people are in the minority... .

[seeking balance]

The ability to apologize requires one to have a very real and stable self.  As we know, pwBPD have an unstable sense of self, as such combined with black/white thinking I am sorry that we feel guilt or remorse is translated to a pwBPD as:  I am bad, unlovable, horrible - very deep, deep shame. 

Why do they seemingly apologize in the beginning?  Part of the idealization dance, not because it is who they are... . they are masters at modeling, fitting a mold - being the person you need them to be to attach.

I, too, had many an argument of "you suck at apologizing" with my ex.  When I really applied the facts of the disorder, that trait made sense to me - It didn't help me not feel the pain, but it did help me let go and take things less personally.

Interestingly, the same person who wrote the 5 love languages also has 5 languages of apology - basically, we all hear and do apologies according to our language - pretty informative actually.  www.5lovelanguages.com/profile/apology/

Best,

SB

[AwakenedOne]

Great post... . this kind of stuff reinforces that I was not the only one with a problem when I begin to doubt my ex has uBPD since she is so high functioning.  

My ex was also high functioning. I never knew about BPD till after we split. I couldn't understand at the time how someone can be a crazy raging lying person and still have a stable career.

[Unique135]

I never heard the words I'm sorry. I was only with him for 4 months and recycled 3 times with declarations of how much he missed me, and what he had been going through. Kind of justifying his behaviour but never apologising for it.

NYE he ran out on me after sex at 7 pm, went home to his mum. I told him in a text he had made me feel cheap and I was upset. He said he can't handle the turmoil he feels. He needed to clear his head, get me out of his head.

A few months later it came up in conversations again, and he was quiet for a really long time, then said " I made a mistake" that was a breakthrough for me. Still not a sorry but the nearest thing I got to one.

A really bad experience happened early on in our relationship. We were out at the beach in an isolated place, and he rolled himself a joint, and a small one for me. I don't take drugs ever, but a couple of times had a drag of one of his. I thought that's what he gave me and I smoked it pretty quickly, a bit paranoid we were going to get caught. He panicked when he knew i had already smoked it so fast. I then had an overdose which made me feel like I was going to die. I was paralysed and hallucinating. To cut a long story short, after an hour I could move again with help, and then I started vomiting I was soo sick. He held my hair back from my face and said " I'm so sorry you had a bad reaction to that Narellan" no sorry I nearly killed you by giving you an unknown substance without you knowing!

The weirdest thing about that experience was that I felt like he SAVED my life by talking me through it all and looking after me. He ditched me and went NC for 2 weeks after that. Said it had completely freaked him out. But never took any responsibility for it .

Yeah, same thing happened to me.  After being recyced for couple of times, he never apologized.  After telling me he missed me, and wants to be with me, I found out he is on a dating site looking for women.  It is like nothing happened... .

[Red Sky]

Interestingly, I always got remorse, never blame on myself - my exgf basically transferred all feelings to self-loathing. Sorry was used constantly. I genuinely think that she thought, 'honey, I can't stay on the phone, I have five hours till I have to get up and go to work' meant 'you are a waste of time' or such. But it left me having to do a lot of talking down and positive affirmations.

It basically still felt like any misstep was held against me... . But she never, ever said a word against me in the whole time I knew her. Maybe I didn't make it past the idealization phase?

[christin5433]

For all these behaviors that seem confusing, I have to bring myself to remember that my ex is still the terrified, abused, three year old, with limited abilities, and who is living the very nightmare of her existence with the Disorder.

My exgfwBPD never really felt remorse or guilt.  She only felt shame, which was either repressed or erupted upon me through anger and projection.  Shame is how we feel about ourselves, Guilt/Remorse is how we feel about our actions.   Shame is a baser emotion than guilt. Remorse is a higher emotion that involves self awareness and and the ability to take responsibility for one's actions. 

When a want is the same as a need, as with my exgfwBPD, there is no guilt or responsibility, only shame.  If you stole a loaf of bread because your children were starving, you might feel shame, but probably limited guilt because you were acting on a need.   For my ex, the want and the need were the same. 

Or in another perspective, it's like a three year who impulsively steals a cookie and gets caught.  While being scolded, he may say he's sorry, but he really doesn't have the capacity to take responsibility for his actions.  He saw the cookie and at three years old he doesn't have the impulse control and executive decision making capacity to deny his desires.  His want for the cookie is the same as his need for the cookie.  And he does not have the ability to take responsibility for his actions.  But he feels great shame at her mother's scolding.

So he'll say he's sorry if he's forced to say it.  But inside he's feeling towards his mother is,, "You are mean and abusive, and I hate you!"  And he's really only sorry for getting caught or that you are mad.  Thus the, "I'm sorry your are mad" responses that so many of us have heard. 

The limited capacity for remorse,  self -responsibility, empathy essentially means that my ex will never change.  The capacity for self reflection and real adaptation are simply not within her.  Believe me we tried.  We went to counseling and learned ways to apologize.  But in the end she couldn't do it.   

It's not that she didn't want to apologize and take responsibility.   It's that she simply didn't have the capacity to take responsibility for her actions.  Her emotional development was arrested at the toddler age, and the pathways were never developed.  Emotional growth is simply beyond her.

The Disorder is a B___.  The Disorder is more powerful than me. The Disorder does not want happiness.  The Disorder always wins. 

Sadness.

T

I am grieving a b/u it's been a month and I know that's normal. I'm actually feeling a bit clearer. I'm also in recovery. It is so hard to untwine yourself from any b/u . This one just had such a deep type of damage. Plus all that was done by my ex a lot of abuse. No remorse in or out of r/s. I'm starting to recognize her more ad a toddler emotionally . A kind of different perspective. My mind believes everyone is responsible for thier actions. My standard. I see I'm not probably gonna get any sincere apology for harms done. It is sad.

[dobie]

Sorry was a word I heard a lot in my house from me , I used to have to apologise even when she started the argument she needled me so I'd explode etc

If she said it , it was once out of every 10 times and it was begrudging .

Nothing was ever her fault even the BU was me or us never her .

"I'm sorry I upset you x" via text


That was the extent of her empathy after the BU preceded by "I'm a good person" how else could I excuse blah blah blah excuse .


Every selfish action "justified with a reason " ... Blame , blame , anger resentment or power games .

[raisins3142]

Sorry was a word I heard a lot in my house from me , I used to have to apologise even when she started the argument she needled me so I'd explode etc

If she said it , it was once out of every 10 times and it was begrudging .

Nothing was ever her fault even the BU was me or us never her .

"I'm sorry I upset you x" via text


That was the extent of her empathy after the BU preceded by "I'm a good person" how else could I excuse blah blah blah excuse .


Every selfish action "justified with a reason " ... Blame , blame , anger resentment or power games .

Was yours defensive as well?

I think extreme, immediate defensiveness is a sign of no remorse/guilt/and also manipulation.

[dobie]

Sorry was a word I heard a lot in my house from me , I used to have to apologise even when she started the argument she needled me so I'd explode etc

If she said it , it was once out of every 10 times and it was begrudging .

Nothing was ever her fault even the BU was me or us never her .

"I'm sorry I upset you x" via text


That was the extent of her empathy after the BU preceded by "I'm a good person" how else could I excuse blah blah blah excuse .


Every selfish action "justified with a reason " ... Blame , blame , anger resentment or power games .

Was yours defensive as well?

I think extreme, immediate defensiveness is a sign of no remorse/guilt/and also manipulation.

100% and super sensitive as well

[enlighten me]

I cant remember a single sorry in the two and a half years we were together. Any form of appology came a caveat firmly putting any wrong doing at my feet.

I think if she ever gave a sincere appology she would burst into flames.

[christin5433]

I got I love u I'm sorry . But the catch is that I always got was I did all that and I'm talking a lot of name calling and threats because I was angry. The I love u I'm sorry was her wanting me to come home. I would leave. I have kids and plus I didn't want to fight w kids around. Or towards the end I just didn't want to fight. I'd leave . I got sick of being around negativity. I actually feel guilt over this but that's something I did to keep peace . It takes 2 to fight.

[BorisAcusio]

To the original post:

Linehan, the creator of Dialectical Behavior Therapy introduced the term "unsupported guilt" which means "that the individual in her calmer moments — using "wise mind," so to speak— does not herself beleive that the actions in question are wrong or immoral.That is, the guilt not supported by her own beleifs or moral code. It does not lead to reparative impulses or changes in behaviour as "healthy" guilt or remorse would.

That's basically taking Lewis' definition of shame and applying it to guilt. It seems to me that most literature fall into this pit, making definitions like "neutralized" or "unsupported guilt" which are basically lack every positive aspect of the original term.


According to Tangney, "the empirical studies fail to take into account the distinction between shame and guilt, or that employ adjective checklist-type (and other globally worded) measures that are ill-suited to distinguish between shame and guilt".

[BorisAcusio]

[Double post]

[Reforming]

The ability to apologize requires one to have a very real and stable self.  As we know, pwBPD have an unstable sense of self, as such combined with black/white thinking I am sorry that we feel guilt or remorse is translated to a pwBPD as:  I am bad, unlovable, horrible - very deep, deep shame.  

Why do they seemingly apologize in the beginning?  Part of the idealization dance, not because it is who they are... . they are masters at modeling, fitting a mold - being the person you need them to be to attach.

I, too, had many an argument of "you suck at apologizing" with my ex.  When I really applied the facts of the disorder, that trait made sense to me - It didn't help me not feel the pain, but it did help me let go and take things less personally.

Interestingly, the same person who wrote the 5 love languages also has 5 languages of apology - basically, we all hear and do apologies according to our language - pretty informative actually.  www.5lovelanguages.com/profile/apology/

Best,

SB

It's an good topic and there's an interesting range of posts that highlight the broad spectrum of behaviour and experience on this site.

My relationship was long - 16 years - and over that time my exes behaviour was defined by a series of declining peaks and more extreme troughs.

For the first few years her outbursts of anger and violence were followed by apparent remorse and what seemed like heartfelt apology.

She seemed genuinely contrite, like a sad little child

After the first violent episode I told her that her behaviour was unacceptable and that unless she sought some professional help, she would have to leave.

For a while she did and everything seemed better, but she stopped therapy after a few months claiming that she was fully healed.

A couple of years later there was another episode followed by another heartfelt apology and apparent remorse.

By the end of the relationship any apparent remorse was pretty much gone.

She blamed her violence, her affair, pretty much everything on the failure of our relationship and me.

She was particularly furious that she had gone to see a T about her violence.

After our final breakup there were a few fragmentary moments of regret when she apologised for some of her behaviour, but it never felt real.

I didn't sense any really remorse or understanding of the damage she had done.

Words can hurt but actions hurt more and apologies are empty, unless they are backed up by

A: a genuine acknowledgement of responsibility

B: a recognition of the hurt or injury that's been inflicted

C: a genuine sustained effort to change our behaviour

I think there are times when we all struggle to take responsibility for our choices but our actions and behaviour are what define us

And that goes for both us Nons (I hate the term) who don't maintain our boundaries  and accept the unacceptable - you cannot enforce a boundary with words you need to back it up with action - and for our BPD partners who trample our boundaries and treat us and others with cruelty and contempt.

Reforming