How do I handle these requests? Is it almost over?

[Cipher13]

I'm at the end of relationship rope I think. She is to. Telling me she hates me. Can't stand the sight of me and does not feel any sort of love for me at all. But desparately wants me to make her fall in love with me. Do anythign and everything so that every day feels like the relationship was like it was when it was brand new. Do this or its over is basically what she said. Every day she wants an apology for makeing her feel worthless. For treating her like crap. I need to be over the top doing things that get her to love me. She wants everysingle thing I do to be intentional and meaninful and deep for her and towards her.

I know these are unrealisticlly unsustainable. I keep telling her I am trying to be like that but she reminds me every night I have fallen well short and is angry with me for lying to her. Lying that I would do these things and yet I can't.

Is this what it looks like when its the end of a realtionship like this? She wants the new fun fresh exciting feeling of a brand new relationship. I don't know how to do that liek she wants.

[OutOfEgypt]

Have you read this article?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

I let my parents read it (I have an uBPD ex wife), and they were shocked at how accurate it was.  My dad was so upset after reading it that he couldn't talk about it.

[InSearchofMe]

Oh Cipher13, I know this is so very painful for you.  And I am relatively certain, my answer is not what you want to hear.  She is asking you to change how she feels.  The fact is, you can't.  But when you agree to try to change how she feels and fail at doing so, she sees it as lying to her.  You must set a boundary that cannot and will not do this.  Continuing to try and meet this expectation of hers will only make that giant unfillable need in her get bigger.

I know it is difficult to face the extinction burst that will likely occur when you set this boundary, but honestly, is it really any worse than what is going on now?

[Waddams]

She's also setting the stage to justify blaming Cipher for everything.  He can't do this, he can't do that... . it's a constant catch 22 that he can't ever get out of.  She's purposely tearing down his self worth, saying he's no good and worthless to her because he can't make her love him again, he can't do this, he can't do that... . he's a failure... . and that, my friends, is all totally bupkis.   

Cipher - you're not lying to her about anything.  However, at some point, you're going to have to withdraw from this cycle with her to get out of the drama.  This dynamic with her only continues as long as you continue to participate in it.  This situation changes when you change it, and not until then.

[OutOfEgypt]

She's purposely tearing down his self worth, saying he's no good and worthless to her because he can't make her love him again, he can't do this, he can't do that... . he's a failure... . and that, my friends, is all totally bupkis.   

Yup, been there, too.  For a long, long time.  And you know what?  Tearing down someone's self-worth works... . it works at making them the perfect pack-mule for all of the garbage you can throw on them.  It works at controlling them so that they will never leave while destroying them from within. 

She told me I "lied to her about who I am".  Isn't that the irony of ironies?  Projection, much?  I had no idea I had married a black hole.  I thought the person who was so happy with me and thought I was so wonderful was the person I married.  Nope.  But that bait that hooks us becomes the means of punishment, because you always think it is YOU who failed (and that is why they aren't that awesome, loving person who is intensely passionate ABOUT YOU ONLY anymore).  And then you get to witness them using that same bait on other men.  It's lovely.

[OutOfEgypt]

Waddams... . virtual high-five *whipash!*

[Cipher13]

But how do I reply to these? She words things a phrases them that make me feel like I have to answer almost. Liek this afternoon she asked me to write her a nice email... . so what do I do with that? She had aslo mentioned buildign a dream cabin. I thought there is a nice email. Then added a few compliments about her.  The reply email baffles my mind... . "OK well that right there in that email lets me know that you don't get it.  The cabin talk wasn't nice that is not loving and caring it is just general conversation.  I need more than that.  More meaningful than that."

WTH? I know its a no win situation but what can I say tostop it?

[OutOfEgypt]

That's the thing... . you can't stop it.  You can only detach from it and not play the game.  Most of us eventually choose to walk away.

If you are trying to hold onto a relationship with her, maybe you say something unemotional like, "Oh, that's cool."  Of course, that would probably piss her off and drive her to accuse you of something like "not caring."

In order to really get a handle on this, you need to listen to what YOU think and what YOU feel, not her.  BPD's are great at very craftily making everything about them so that you are constantly trying to anticipate and think about what they think and feel (so as to get their approval or avoid their explosions, guilt-trips, and accusations).  They are kinda like bullies in a way, even if they don't see it.

So, did you REALLY do anything wrong?  :)o you think you did anything wrong, given your example.  :)o you think you are giving of yourself?  Then listen to that, and not her.  This is the same black-hole crap that I went through.  You cannot fill that black hole.  Nobody can.  It is a trap and a way to manipulate you into complying and revolving completely around her.  The consequence of finally waking up and listening to yourself and your perceptions and feelings instead of letting them force-feed you theirs and demand total allegiance is that most of us usually just say, "this isn't worth all the hell... . "

How to reply?  :)ecide to listen to yourself and your feelings.  And stop playing the game.  The game is to throw you off balance, always put you on the defensive so that you are a) pliable and easy to control, and b) always trying harder to focus on the black-hole of her needs.  You don't need to play it.  Step back.  :)etach.  Let her throw her fits and rages and accusations.  See the game for what it is, and stop playing it.  Justifying yourself or answering their accusations IS playing the game, by the way.  That's why awareness of this game coupled with emotional detachment is really the only way to survive.  You have to get to the point where you can hear your inner self saying, "She's doing it again!" and you step back and say something like, "Ok, I get ya.  Well, I have to run to the store.  Talk to you later!"

[Hopeless777]

I'm with you Cipher13. I left on Sunday after another blow up, what number blow up is was I've lost count. All my clothes and office, gone. After a 27 year relationship and years of agony I just couldn't take it any more. I do miss the dog though. God help me with the grief and pain.

[OutOfEgypt]

Hopeless, 27 years is a long time!  I'm so sorry.  But you will start to feel better soon.  I've said it before... . it's like quitting a second full-time job... . a job that demands overtime, a job you wished with all your might wasn't the way it was, a job that doesn't pay anything, and a job that painfully drains your soul, breaks your spirit, and makes you feel like you don't know who you are anymore.  After some time of living in that, provided you get help for yourself, you will start to be able to breathe again.

[Waddams]

Re: How do I handle these requests? Is it almost over?

Cipher - wanted to respond to the question in the subject line.

It sounds like her requests are not performable.  You can't control how she feels.  And remember, you only get out of something what you put into it.  Your descriptions sound like she is making absolutely no emotional investment in the relationship with you.  It's typical BPD.  However, she experiences no "profit", so to speak, because she makes no investment.  In the end, it's my opinion that BPD's are just too scared to take what they see as a risk.  In relationships, making investment means putting yourself out there and being vulnerable.  It is taking a risk that the other person will not hurt you when you make yourself vulnerable to them.  She's not willing to take that risk for you, the relationship, or herself.  At least, not at the moment.

So this leaves you in a d@mned if you do/d@mned if you don't situation.  My T calls it a "double bind".  If you try to meet her demands, it's impossible and you fail.  That's not a reflection of you.  It's the same as not being able to fly if you jump off a skyscraper.  You can try, but it's simply not possible.  If you don't try, and instead try to reason with her about it not being fair, etc., then that's not gonna work either.  There is nothing you can do to handle her requests and satisfy her.

JMHO, but my experience with double binds has convinced me that the best way to deal with them is not to get caught in them to start with.  Back away and don't engage.  She can react and call you every name in the book, but simply saying "I'm not in control of your emotions and I'm not going to try to control your emotions." and disengaging is really the only way to not get caught in the catch 22 she's setting up for you.  Sure she ends up mad/hurt/blaming you/splitting/etc., but she ends up that way anyway.  The difference is that you don't expend yourself.  You hold healthier boundaries for yourself.  You make your decisions on how you are going to live, and how you are going to behave, and you follow through consistently.  She can decide whether she wants to stick around or not from there.  Eventually, when the put downs and anger stop having an effect, she'll be forced to choose for herself - change/look inward and address her own demons, or leave in search of a new doormat that she can offload her issues on.

I'll give you an example.  Recently, I started a new court case with my uPDxw because she's removed our S9 from school.  We have 50/50 custody.  On my weeks in the summer, S9 is going to be staying at my house, with my Fiance's kids (ages 10-16), and sometimes Fiance will be there too.  uPDxw is trying to tell me he can't stay there and has to go to a camp/daycare.  To date, I've made all her phone contact go thru my cell phone.  Sometimes he's home with the 16 y/o as a babysitter, but it's been a few hours here, there, etc.  My fiance has also not wanted to give uPDxw the number of the two cell phones we have for her older kids.  There are two so one can stay at the house, one can go with a kid when they go out, etc.  I've agreed uPDxw doesn't get the older kid's cell phone numbers.  I'm her point of contact.  To date, it's worked fine as S9 has always had easy phone access most of the time via my cell phone to his mom.  However, that's changing, he's going to be there all day without phone access instead of just a few hours at most for the summer.  I also know Fiance would not want to give 9/10 year old kids a cell phone.  But my L was insistent S9 (10 in July) should have the ability to call his mom if he wants during the day.  Even if just to say hi.  :)ivorced kids in reasonable circumstances should be able to call and talk to the parent they are not with.  And that's reasonable, kids should have access to talk to their parents.  However, I know Fiance doesn't want to give out a cell number to uPDxw (which I agree with), and I know Fiance doesn't think we should give S9 his own phone because of his age and fairness issues to the other kids.    Fiance is also worried S9 will call his mom, and she'll come over sometime and make drama when either of us isn't there.  I don't share that concern as uPDxw has always been very passive aggressive and has never been openly aggressive/confrontational like that.  Anyway, if I try to work it out with Fiance I'm left in a place of can't do anything.  Can't give out a cell number, and can't get a phone for S9 to use.  Fiance didn't even want to have a landline number we could give to uPDxw.  Hence I knew I went straight into a double bind if I tried to talk it out with Fiance.  I also knew I needed to provide S9 a way to call his other parent for extended times when he can't because me and my phone are not around.  Knowing all those things, I went by a store for our cell phone provider, got the cheapest phone I could find that calls/texts but no internet capability, and it's S9's phone to call his mom now.  Fiance is mad, but that's okay.  I stayed out of the double bind by simply just making my decision and following through.  If uPDxw does use knowledge that me and Fiance aren't there to come over and start trouble, at that point, then I can justify taking the phone away and not allowing that kind of access to protect my household from more drama created by uPDxw.  

The biggest fights Fiance and I have gotten into have been because she's got a problem with something but presents no solutions, and won't let me solve it either, leaving us stuck.  So now, when I know ahead of time, we'll be get stuck, I make my decision and follow through.  Fiance gets mad, but you know what, some issues her and I were having have really calmed down.  There's a new respect I'm seeing.  It comes from demonstrating your own values/boundaries and acting in a way you know you need to, even if someone is going to get mad at you.  :)emonstrating that personal strength, not getting mad back, and just being consistently loving and yet holding your boundaries, making your own decisions, and following through, it engenders respect from your partner.  At least a healthy partner.  They might get mad, but they'll recognize strength and consistency when they see it, and it WILL comfort them.  I'm seeing Fiance behave with much more respect, love, generosity, and she's making more effort at relationship contributions since I changed my behavior.

To sum up all that, if you act and behave with respect for your own needs first, others will also begin to follow suit.  If you don't, then others won't.  You don't have to harsh, mean, or vindictive.  You simply have to take care of you, and disengage when necessary when she's attacking you.  :)on't retaliate, but don't stay in her cross-hairs when she's attacking you.  Have enough respect and care for yourself enough to take care of yourself and not let yourself be attacked.  She won't stop treating you like this until you stop letting her.

[Waddams]

But how do I reply to these?

Don't reply.  Don't engage.  Just tell her that you can't say anything that will satisfy her, so you're not going to comply with the request.  If you want, you can tell her she's responsible for her feelings, not you.

She'll feel rejected/abandoned/etc. and it WILL cause an outburst.  So have a plan to not engage with her on that too.  Turn the phone off, don't answer, don't reply to texts, etc.  At most a simple, calm statement you won't reply to her anger.

It's hard to grasp, but YOU DON'T HAVE TO REPLY.  You can disengage from this.  The cycle is she asks you for an email (in this case), you send it and make a sincere effort, but she's not interested in your reply really.  She interested in tearing you down.  She is ALWAYS going to reject what you send her.  Then she gets to tell you how it's not good enough, you're so stupid, you don't get it, etc.  It's a cycle.  You know how this is going to play out by now.  Don't engage in the cycle.  She'll still get angry, but she's angry no matter what you do.  That's because you can't control her feelings.  One of the two of you has to let go and disengage from this cycle.  She can't stop herself.  That's the nature of a disorder like BPD.  That leaves you as the only one that can stop and disengage.

[Cipher13]

Waddams

Thanks I needed that. She freaked out that I said she couldn't go wioth me on my business trip. She is still pushing the nagle I make my company let me take her.

[OutOfEgypt]

Waddams, well said.  I completely agree.

[Waddams]

Thanks I needed that. She freaked out that I said she couldn't go wioth me on my business trip. She is still pushing the nagle I make my company let me take her.

This is an opportunity for you to start setting boundaries for yourself and what you will and won't accept.

You need to be productive on trip.  She distracts from productivity when she's there.  So she can't go.  You don't need to justify or explain yourself as to why you want to go.  You only need to tell her she can't go this time.  When she pushes, you DISENGAGE by saying you don't have anything else to say about it and aren't going to discuss it anymore.  Then, if you feel up to it, you can try throwing some SET her way with some comments like "I love you, I'll miss you, I'll be very glad to get back home with you.  I know you're feeling insecure about me being gone, and I'm sorry for your anxieties, and I understand them, but there's only so much I can do.  I can't crawl inside your head and fix it.  But I'll be back, and even when I'm gone, I still love you, and our relationship is still something that is real whether I'm physically present or not".  Try to build up a little object constancy with her.

Refocus the discussion not on her demands, but your boundaries in a loving, supportive way.  Then let her react however she will, and don't get mad back, just disengage further if you need to and walk away from a fight, and follow through consistently.  Go on trip and come back to her.  If she continues to start fights, walk away peacefully (even when she continues to be ugly towards you), always with the statement you love her and you'll talk later when it can happen in better ways without the anger and vitriol.

[Wrongturn1]

On the topic of how to respond to her requests, maybe something like:

"You have asked me repeatedly to do things to make me love you again.  I have done the things that I am capable of doing and it has not been enough.  This has helped me to realize that I cannot control your feelings - I do not have the ability to make you love me or to take away the anger and despair that you feel.  I would like for us to be happy together, and I hope that we will be.  At the same time, I cannot and will not take responsibility for your feelings, and I will no longer be taking actions with the intention of 'making you feel' a certain way.  If you request this in the future, I will politely decline, and if I feel verbally or emotionally abused by your behavior in response, I will walk away and come back later when things are calmer."

That's not SET format... . more telling it like it is.  If you can't say this to her, maybe you can email or text something like this?  On the work trip problem, I think Waddams had some good advice and suggested wording.  Hope this helps, and have a good weekend!   

[OutOfEgypt]

Personally, I wouldn't even say that much.  I did say things like that in the past, but "telling it like it is" really only seemed to provoke endless discussions and arguments and rabbit-trails.  I mean really... . they live for conflict.  Trying to tell them the "truth" is just inviting them to jump in and battle or do more passive-aggressive stuff, depending on her style.  Once you accept that you'll never "set them straight", it gets easier... . because you learn to stop giving a S#@T about what they think.  Of course, it kinda depends on if you are trying to keep the relationship alive or not.  But in general, I think less is more... . "This is what I'm doing... . Yes, I care, but no... . I dont need to explain myself."  (and then watch as the temper tantrum ensues)

[123Phoebe]

Personally, I wouldn't even say that much.  I did say things like that in the past, but "telling it like it is" really only seemed to provoke endless discussions and arguments and rabbit-trails.  I mean really... . they live for conflict.  Trying to tell them the "truth" is just inviting them to jump in and battle or do more passive-aggressive stuff, depending on her style. 

This is a good point and something to ponder... .   Is it that they live for conflict or that they live in conflict?  Either way, telling anyone your reality because it conflicts with theirs, is where so many of the issues lie and is a slippery slope for sure.  Knowing my truth and what the lines in the sand are can be pretty helpful.  Again, my truth, not what I think their truth is, should or might be (BPD BPD BPD).

[OutOfEgypt]

Is it that they live for conflict or that they live in conflict?

I think its more like... . they live for conflict as a way to deal with (avoid) the inner conflict they live in.  They live FOR conflict because of how they live IN conflict  

[maxsterling]

Wow.  This thread perfectly illustrates the complete no-win confusion that dealing with a pwBPD brings.  I wish I could give you an easy answer just like I wish you could give me an easy answer.  But I think the advice here is probably spot on, and spot on for what I eventually need to do.  I know, easier said that done, but they are all right - she's already upset no matter what you do.  You can't control whether she leaves or stays.  Nothing to lose by saying "no" and seeing what happens.

I'm in the same situation as you right now.  Not to this extreme with the demands, but today she called me at work again to have our daily conversation about marriage or children.  I want to marry her.  I want to have children with her.   BUT NOT IF SHE OR OUR RELATIONSHIP IS THIS UNSTABLE.  I've told her that.  Over, and over.  But every time she sees a pregnant woman, she gets triggered and calls me and blames me.  I CAN'T KEEP HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION OVER AND OVER WITH HER.  It's killing me.  And I am starting to realize, no matter what I say, no matter what I promise her, the conversation will be back if not tomorrow, but within the week.  guaranteed.  So, I need to choose to not have the conversation.  Let her be mad.  If she wants to hate me or blame me and leave - she'd do that anyway.  Haven't had the guts to do it yet, but I feel I am getting close.

[Grey Kitty]

WTH? I know its a no win situation but what can I say tostop it?

You can't stop her from putting you in a no-win situation. All you can do is disengage in a way that does no more damage (immediate) to you.

Simply say "I can't do that." or "I cannot change your feelings." or "That is impossible". and then disengage from the subject.

If she insists on bringing it back to a circular argument, and you cannot talk to her about anything at all, go away and stop talking to her for a while.

So, I need to choose to not have the conversation.  Let her be mad.  If she wants to hate me or blame me and leave - she'd do that anyway.  Haven't had the guts to do it yet, but I feel I am getting close.

This is exactly what true support of your partner would look like. She has difficult feelings. If you let her turn it into a fight with you, she directs those feelings into blaming you, and they go away (subsumed by the anger at you). You are enabling this process by getting in that fight with her!

When I did this to my wife, she turned those feelings onto herself. It was horrible for her, but it was what she needed to do so she could go forward with her life. She did thank me for it much later... . that wasn't what she did at the time though!

[Cipher13]

These are all very good and worth conteplating. So this time she still is makig a play to go woth me on my business trip. I said that my company is prefereign she not come. She wants me to make them let her go. And to say the counselor said she has to come with me becasue or marriage is unstable and requires us to not be apart. The T did not say that to my knowledge. She is saying that is what The T would say to me that needs to be done. I'm not sure that woul deb the case from most any T. Any thoughts there?

[GaGrl]

"This is not a business event to which spouses are invited."

Repeat, ad infinitum nauseum.

You've been through this scenario with her before.  You don't want to live in a Groundhog Day movie for the rest of your life.  Or do you?

[Cipher13]

She went on this similar trip 2 other times. Made it extremely difficult for me.

[Waddams]

These are all very good and worth conteplating. So this time she still is makig a play to go woth me on my business trip. I said that my company is prefereign she not come. She wants me to make them let her go. And to say the counselor said she has to come with me becasue or marriage is unstable and requires us to not be apart. The T did not say that to my knowledge. She is saying that is what The T would say to me that needs to be done. I'm not sure that woul deb the case from most any T. Any thoughts there?

Just tell her no and you're not going to discuss it further.  Don't engage beyond that. 

The business she's saying with the T, or what she says the T would say... . it's just more BS she's throwing out to try to further engage and FOG you.  She's pushing against a boundary you are trying to set and stop you from setting it.  Don't give in, and let her react how she will.  Let her be mad. 

The marriage is unstable because of unhealthy interactions between the married people.  Being apart or together isn't going to fix the instability.  The two of you becoming healthier people and learning to interact in a healthier fashion is what will stabilize the marriage.  But you don't need to argue that point with her right now.

[Grey Kitty]

Don't make excuses with your company. Don't get sucked into hypothetical arguments about what your T would say. Just say you aren't going with her on this trip, and stop discussing it with her.

Remember--YOU have a choice to engage in discussion about this with her or not. NOTHING good for either you or her will come of further discussion.

Besides, if I remember correctly, it was bad the first time, and even worse the second time she went with you on a business trip.

Saying "no" to this is a fantastic way to change the dynamic in your r/s to one that works for you, Cipher13.

[DaringGreatly]

But how do I reply to these? She words things a phrases them that make me feel like I have to answer almost. Liek this afternoon she asked me to write her a nice email... . so what do I do with that? She had aslo mentioned buildign a dream cabin. I thought there is a nice email. Then added a few compliments about her.  The reply email baffles my mind... . "OK well that right there in that email lets me know that you don't get it.  The cabin talk wasn't nice that is not loving and caring it is just general conversation.  I need more than that.  More meaningful than that."

WTH? I know its a no win situation but what can I say tostop it?

WOW! I almost fell out of my chair, I couldn't believe my eyes while reading this... it felt like the twilight zone ... my uBPDh just last week asked me for almost the same thing (2 letters- one to him and one to my family explaining my screwups) to show how I wanted to repair and work on our relationship- the request  for a letter to him seemed 'reasonable' at the time... so I hand-wrote a love letter where I apologized for my past mistakes, reiterated my love and commitment to find a way to work things out and threw some great compliments to make it nicer... only to have him respond with almost the exact SAME WORDS =  "This is a good start, but it is not enough, I want more ... " when I responded that I didn't have more for the moment, that in the days to come perhaps I could provide him with more...   he answered " If you dont' have any more that tells me everything I need to know... that you dont' know me, you still don't know what I need, you just don't get it, you still do not understand what you have done... forget it''...  

  I then refused to write the second letter to my family, attempting to explain how I'd rather talk to them in person...   dang!, the tantrum was immediate as he felt I was more concerned with them and not him... . and there I went for the rage ride again   ...  

After all this, my eyes were opened... and I said I just couldn't be what he needed me to be... we have now agreed that we are hurting ourselves more than we can express love to each other... so a split is imminent.  ...

Although I feel very much done with this rollercoaster and so exhausted, the memories of the good times and all the positive qualities that made me fall in love with him in the first place (which I haven't seen in a while) still haunt me... and I wonder, and second-guess myself if I am not throwing in the towel too soon ...

[Cipher13]

Yesterday it sounded like she might be actualy thinking about not going on this trip. She said I had been really improving the last few days. I wanted to say I havn't been doing anything different than the last several months when you were screaming at me that I am disrespectful and mean. Truth is I noticed a difference in her to since she changed roles in her job. She has a lot less stress now. So I used the moment to get a point acrosss. I said the reason you noticed is becasue you also have changed. Its a 2 way street and a cycle that can repeat. You are feelign good and happy and I feed off that and inreturn you get the emotions and reactiosn from me you have been asking for. That inturn makes you happay and guess what  I am doing the emotional things you have been asking for without having to think about them or force them out. Thats how this works.

Seemed like it worked. Today is a new day. See how this goes. She is asking of somewhat unusual requests if she stays home and I go without her. Wants to keep skype on all night to watch me.

[SunflowerFields]

Cipher,

I am not normally this blunt, but in this case I feel compelled.

Your wife is holding you by the b*lls - and you're letting her.

Man up!

Tell her what you want and who gives a *&^£$Q what she thinks.

":)ear, this is what I am going to do, if you don't like it, tough luck, do what have to do".

How on Earth can she respect you if you don't respect yourself?

You've created your own prison - get out of it!

"Often time it happens that we live our lives in chains, and we don't even know we have the key" - Eagles

[InSearchofMe]

Cipher,

I can't help but be of the opinion that her change in behavior is nothing more than a change in tactics.  You have set a boundary (she is not going with you on the business trip) and held it.  She is not getting the response from you that she is used to getting when she throws a tantrum so she is trying something else.  Do not be fooled into changing your mind about her going just because she can put on a pleasant face for a day or two.

And the answer to leaving skype on all night so she can watch you?  The answer is no.  This is just an end run trying to keep you deeply enmeshed.  She is really working overtime trying to find ways around the boundary you have set.

Hang in there, and hold the boundary.  I know it can be hard but it is a huge step for you.  I know setting and holding boundaries has made a big difference in my relationship with BPDh.  I hope it will make a positive impact in yours as well.