Magical Thinking

[Depression = 72% of members]

This topic could probably go on a few boards, but I thought I'd just put it here.

Magical Thinking article from Wikipedia: www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

In clinical psychology, magical thinking can cause a patient to experience fear of performing certain acts or having certain thoughts because of an assumed correlation between doing so and threatening calamities. Magical thinking may lead people to believe that their thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it[/i]

I was thinking of the old journal from my uBPDx I found in my house last week, in a box of stuff she let sit in my closet for three months after she moved out. She finally asked for it back last week (who knows why?). I skimmed the journal. What i found interesting were her daily written page long lists of stuff she was thankful for. Not that it's not abnormal to do it, but I found her exercising some thing like the power of positive thinking. Some was benign, like "thank you for my family, thank you for my friend X," etc... . Some was definitely what I might call magical thinking, thanking whoever for wish list items, as if she already had them:

"Thank you for my BMW."

"Thank you for my 5 bedroom, 3 bathroom house."

"Thank you for my husband XX." (the guy who dumped her a year previously (cheated), came back and used her--giving her an STD that almost killed her---, and then abandoned her again. She was still wildly in love with him)

I thought I knew how deep it went having experienced 6 years with her, and the worst in the last year, but I had no idea. It probably goes even deeper than that.

In her recent journal, it was something similar, but I am not sure how to classify it... . maybe partial splitting in combination with dissociation?

"Thank you God for XX [the guy she was cheating on me with], and thank you for Turkish."

[Turkish]

This topic could probably go on a few boards, but I thought I'd just put it here.

Magical Thinking article from Wikipedia: www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

In clinical psychology, magical thinking can cause a patient to experience fear of performing certain acts or having certain thoughts because of an assumed correlation between doing so and threatening calamities. Magical thinking may lead people to believe that their thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it[/i]

I was thinking of the old journal from my uBPDx I found in my house last week, in a box of stuff she let sit in my closet for three months after she moved out. She finally asked for it back last week (who knows why?). I skimmed the journal. What i found interesting were her daily written page long lists of stuff she was thankful for. Not that it's not abnormal to do it, but I found her exercising some thing like the power of positive thinking. Some was benign, like "thank you for my family, thank you for my friend X," etc... . Some was definitely what I might call magical thinking, thanking whoever for wish list items, as if she already had them:

"Thank you for my BMW."

"Thank you for my 5 bedroom, 3 bathroom house."

"Thank you for my husband XX." (the guy who dumped her a year previously (cheated), came back and used her--giving her an STD that almost killed her---, and then abandoned her again. She was still wildly in love with him)

I thought I knew how deep it went having experienced 6 years with her, and the worst in the last year, but I had no idea. It probably goes even deeper than that.

In her recent journal, it was something similar, but I am not sure how to classify it... . maybe partial splitting in combination with dissociation?

"Thank you God for XX [the guy she was cheating on me with], and thank you for Turkish."

[lemon flower]

good subject, I haven't yet read many topics on this :-)

I think it was my ex's stephmom who first used this term when she was addressing him, even though she didn't know about the BPD at that time.

She would sigh that he was living in some kind of magical world and I think she referred to the mess he made by never solving his problems, believing things would solve themselves in the end

I can point here some examples of thoughts that I would refer to as magical thinking, they do not all come from my last bf exclusively, I have been dealing with 3 different guys with BPD in my life and they all referred to themselves as if they were some kind of magicians  

- believing to have a guardian angel that takes over when driving

- believing that things only go wrong when negative thoughts are deliberatedly put on it (it could be their own negative thoughts or my negative thoughts)

- believing that when live goes good for him it goes bad for his twin brother (and vice versa), like two parts of a balance that constantly goes up and down

- believing that money is no longer of importance in this world and that he can live without it

- believing they can draw some kind of curse on me

- believing someone else has drawn a curse on them

- believing he can change his posture by means of intention and putting energy to specific parts of his body

- believing that the shape of his skull was the cause of his lack of empathy

- believing he can communicate with animals by means of "sending visualised images" to their minds

-... .

 

I wouldn't say that all of their thoughts are completely nuts, I am open to some level of understanding "other dimensions", but the least you can say is that his stephmom is right; he doesn't live in the same world as we do  

and last but not least lots of strange ideas and stories in which he would take over the world with a group of terrorists, join gangs, aim for world leadership,... . I never knew when he was just joking or when he was suddenly serious, but obviously he has been watching too many movies and been playing videogames for too long  

[Turkish]

Your descriptions are interesting, Triss, and more in line with what is described in this article:

www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200802/magical-thinking

Magical Thinking: Positive psychology or psychosis lite?

Magical thinking can be plotted on a spectrum, with skeptics at one end and schizophrenics at the other. People who endorse magical ideation, ranging from the innocuous (occasional fear of stepping on sidewalk cracks) to the outlandish (TV broadcasters know when you're watching), are more likely to have psychosis or develop it later in their lives. People who suffer from obsessive-compulsive disorder also exhibit elevated levels of paranoia, perceptual disturbances, and magical thinking, particularly "thought-action fusion," the belief that your negative thoughts can cause harm. These people are compelled to carry out repetitive tasks to counteract their intrusive thoughts about unlocked doors or loved ones getting cancer. But more magical thinking does not necessarily mean more emotional problems—what counts is whether such thinking interferes with everyday functioning.

My uBPDx had several superstitions, which come from her native culture. Being a bit open to respecting other's beliefs, I put up my own boundaries. I asked her if she wanted a really nice mirror that she left at my house when she moved out. She said, "no, you can keep it, I like it there so it can watch over and protect the kids."

I took it down.

From her mom, and I don't think these come from her culture, but rather from the anxieties she "inherited",

-" if you tickle a baby too much, it might die." Her mom, not speaking English, passed this on to me through her Ex. She once heard a story back in their home country where this happened.

- "if you show a baby its face in the mirror in the first 6 months, it won't learn to talk until much later." Her mom passed this on after she saw me showing S4 himself in a mirror.  Of course, when D2 was born, I secretly showed her to herself in the mirror all of the time. Perhaps a bit juvenile on my part, but now that girl won't shut up!  

My Ex was always going on about "negative energy," even exorcizing our house when we first moved in (she auto-exorcized it by moving out, in my thinking   I always thought that she was herself the biggest source of negative energy in her life, so perhaps she was projecting.

I'm a Christian, so by the definition of materialist psychologists, am a magical thinker myself. Leaving religion out of the equation, however, my own magical thinking goes to my light OCD traits (repetitive motions). I've worked hard on myself over the years to break myself of this.

Now I am trying to examine myself to see if I have anything that might classify as magical thinking.

Can you think of any examples of magical thinking that you might exhibit, leaving aside religious and metaphysical belief systems (unless they are far outside the "norm" of the belief).

[lemon flower]

no, I'm not much of a "magical thinker" myself, in the sense that I am not superstituous, I do not have "crazy" or paranoid ideas and I do not frighten myself with the idea that "voodoo style" actions from people who wish me bad luck could harm me or my environment, say: rituals, curses, whatever,... .

BUT  I do consider it might be possible  that strong thoughts and negative energies might hurt people who are energetically vulnerable, not well-protected, or open to the suggestion (in the last case it might be some kind of self-harming mostly  )

also, I do think that people can be tightened together by so-called "carmic strings", again here we are talking about energetical mal-protection from one person to another, supposingly this has much to do with emotional bondings as well

hmm, when I think about it, maybe these will sound like "magical" inspired ideas after all, just not thàt magical to me  

[PleaseValidate]

Triss, I believe in those things as well. I don't see it as magical thinking,  I see it as physics. I don't go so far as thinking someone can "think" themselves out of getting cancer which is something my BPDmo believes in. In her world everyone (except her) is responsible for their own misfortune.

I think it was Game of Thrones I was watching when someone referenced "peasant superstitions."  This got me thinking about stuff my Grams used to say which she said her mother used to say:

When a utensil dropped: "Company is coming."

Seeing shoes on a table: "Shoe's on table, sign of a fight."

No one was allowed to open an umbrella in the house because it was bad luck. She was always afraid a bird might fly into the house which means someone would die. She would never eat the last piece of dessert because she didn't want to become "an old maid." And probably others I've forgotten... .

These were on top of the usual black cats, walking under ladder curses, etc.

The thing is that i still never open an umbrella in the house or put shoes on a table!   

But are these my "Peasant Heritage" beliefs and thus considered cultural? Hard for me to tell!

[PleaseValidate]

PS- This also reminds me of a bride having, "Something old, something new... . " The rhyme and protocol have actual Pagan beliefs behind them. Most brides I've known have done this whether they've  known the meaning or not because it is considered "bad luck" not to. (I didn't- bad idea!  )

[lemon flower]

PS- This also reminds me of a bride having, "Something old, something new... . " The rhyme and protocol have actual Pagan beliefs behind them. Most brides I've known have done this whether they've  known the meaning or not because it is considered "bad luck" not to. (I didn't- bad idea!  )

yes, very good example of a widespread belief (at least in the US) that could be classified as magical thinking but in a harmless form... .

the problem with pwBPD is that those beliefs can be so strong and exagerated that it causes a lot of stress as well as an excuse to not having to take responsability for their own actions and that can result in very scary and dangerous situations  

eg: my friends belief that his guardian angel would keep him safe while his was driving his car was the perfect excuse to drive drunk and way too fast,  

I always was so afraid when sitting next to him but when I asked him to slow down,he said that my "negative" emotions and fears would provoke a possible carcrash, not his careless driving... .

in reality it was the other way around, I happened to be his guardian angel a couple of times, eg. once I noticed just in time an old man who was crossing the street, if I hadn't warned my friend it would have ended very badly (afterwards ofcourse it was not his fault but the old man's, and theoretically he was right, the old man did act very dangerously too, but still it was quite a scary incident)

on the other hand I must admit that up till now he has been a lucky ass to stay out of any real trouble because he has been causing several car accidents during the years but he never ever got severely injured himself nor did he hurt someone else, so that guardian angel did his job after all  

[Blimblam]

It seems to me the young people I meet with PD's tend to be "new age."  Perhaps it is because I live in California.  The tend to justify bad behavior with reference to their astrological signs.  They twist things like positive thinking into ways to justifying acts of selfishness that hurt other people by blaming the victim for being negative. So magical thinking seems to be a way to blame the victims and gas light them.  

I have often heard magic is the art of deception.  Borderlines are masters of deception and so are sociopaths.  It is funny that for young new age people that I am fairly positive have pd's on their facebook they tend to like and share memes and quotes about magic and crazy people all spun in a positive light.  

It also has occurred to me that the historical archetypes we associate with borderlines and sociopaths are considered to be "magical beings." Sirens,witches, and vampires using "magic" or deception to manipulate their victims.

[Turkish]

Good answers! Though superstitions do qualify as "magical thinking," it's when they result in unhealthy behaviors and actions is where they become harmful (emotionally or physically), as you all are saying. There is also a cultural component that may be involved, as my uBPDx is an immigrant, and some of her thoughts are common in her native culture. By definition, a PD is only classified as such if the behaviors manifest themselves as being outside the norm for one's culture. So we can tread lightly to not offend where offense is not justified. For instance, I kept my mouth shut about some of what I considered the more silly superstitions.

It seems to me the young people I meet with PD's tend to be "new age."  Perhaps it is because I live in California.  The tend to justify bad behavior with reference to their astrological signs.  They twist things like positive thinking into ways to justifying acts of selfishness that hurt other people by blaming the victim for being negative. So magical thinking seems to be a way to blame the victims and gas light them.  

I have often heard magic is the art of deception.  Borderlines are masters of deception and so are sociopaths.  It is funny that for young new age people that I am fairly positive have pd's on their facebook they tend to like and share memes and quotes about magic and crazy people all spun in a positive light.

I'll hijack my own thread here a minute to comment on this with a quote from Lawson's Understanding The Borderline Mother. I think it is applicable with regard to understanding the lying and deception in context of pwBPD:

"Some borderlines consciously distort the truth in order to prevent abandonment, maintain self-esteem, or avoid conflict. Others may lie to evoke sympathy, attention, and concern. From the borderline’s perspective, however, lying feels essential to survival. (Although not all borderlines consciously lie, all borderlines experience perceptional distortions.) When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent of wrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse. Apologies are rare, therefore, and borderlines may be confused about why others expect them to feel remorse. They believe that others would do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, “But I had to!” Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying because she feels she had no other option."

This goes with what my uBPDx said, "maybe this [her cheating and abandonment] had to happen!" I understood it from my non-disordered world-view as being abdication of moral responsibility; yet, it goes much deeper than that.

It also has occurred to me that the historical archetypes we associate with borderlines and sociopaths are considered to be "magical beings." Sirens,witches, and vampires using "magic" or deception to manipulate their victims.

Mythology is commentary on the human condition wrapped in allusion and metaphor. In the context of magical thinking, human beings attempt to understand that in the world which seems out of their control, abdicating their own responsibility in contributing to the chaos.

[lemon flower]

In the case of pwBPD I think their tendency to explain things they can't explain in a logical way by means of magical thinking has also a lot to do with their dissociation problems: if you can't remember what you have been doing for the past couple of hours it's not so strange that you will search for an explanation outside yourself and beyond your own responsability: if it happens that you have caused an accident and you can't remember what happened it was most likely some bad energy that took over, if you can't remember how you drove from point A to B you will gladly think it was your guardian angel who was in charge of this ride, etc... .  

[PleaseValidate]

It seems to me the young people I meet with PD's tend to be "new age."  Perhaps it is because I live in California.  The tend to justify bad behavior with reference to their astrological signs.  They twist things like positive thinking into ways to justifying acts of selfishness that hurt other people by blaming the victim for being negative. So magical thinking seems to be a way to blame the victims and gas light them.

Too true! I was at a yoga retreat a few years ago and there were constant discussion regarding the book The Secret. I was one of the few to dissent and claim that "positive energy only goes so far," you can't will yourself to grow your arm back, for example. Many people went so far as to blame them others for giving themselves cancer. This is something my BPDmom has tried to pull on me in the very recent past. (e.g., to get me to stop collecting the money i'm owed for care-taking, i get something like, "If you want to let [my lying mentally ill aunt] give you cancer then that is your choice." (Umm . . ... what about the person who would actually be giving me cancer per your own words?)

It is tragic irony that many so called "self help" books have really turned into "blame the victim if s/he cannot change due to biology" books.   

I heard somewhere that society has a victim blaming mentality because they do not want to acknowledge the injustice in the world. So i wonder, am i so overly empathetic with people because my whole life has unjust? 

[Blimblam]

It seems to me the young people I meet with PD's tend to be "new age."  Perhaps it is because I live in California.  The tend to justify bad behavior with reference to their astrological signs.  They twist things like positive thinking into ways to justifying acts of selfishness that hurt other people by blaming the victim for being negative. So magical thinking seems to be a way to blame the victims and gas light them.

Too true! I was at a yoga retreat a few years ago and there were constant discussion regarding the book The Secret. I was one of the few to dissent and claim that "positive energy only goes so far," you can't will yourself to grow your arm back, for example. Many people went so far as to blame them others for giving themselves cancer. This is something my BPDmom has tried to pull on me in the very recent past. (e.g., to get me to stop collecting the money i'm owed for care-taking, i get something like, "If you want to let [my lying mentally ill aunt] give you cancer then that is your choice." (Umm . . ... what about the person who would actually be giving me cancer per your own words?)

It is tragic irony that many so called "self help" books have really turned into "blame the victim if s/he cannot change due to biology" books.   

I heard somewhere that society has a victim blaming mentality because they do not want to acknowledge the injustice in the world. So i wonder, am i so overly empathetic with people because my whole life has unjust? 

This seems to be very American type of thinking.  People I know that I met in other countries thought it was ridiculous. It seems a way to pacify the would be change makers in society.  The people I told about this all seemed to lump it into the ignorant Americans mentality.

[Frank88]

Turkish: A lot of what you write in the below quote really helps put into perspective that we are dealing with children sometimes.  My BPDexgf's justification for her lies seemed so childish.  In her mind there was a reason why she hurt her ex, then me, then my replacement.  But there was no remorse.  I've learned as an adult looking back at my childhood, that I needed to learn why things were wrong.  Kids are taught that hurting others is wrong, but it takes time to learn.  Normal people learn to not hurt others because it is wrong, or it might bring bad consequences, or simply because it will make them feel bad to hurt another person.  A child does not know these things instinctively, and when they get in trouble for hurting another, sometimes all they care about is that they got caught.  Eventually though these children grow up.  For my ex, she still thinks like a child.  She simply can't see that what she does is wrong or hurtful, until after the fact when she gets caught or her friends call her on it.

"When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent of wrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse. Apologies are rare, therefore, and borderlines may be confused about why others expect them to feel remorse. They believe that others would do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, “But I had to!” Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying because she feels she had no other option."

[Jonathan Ricciardi]

You will be fine.  She left, it was her choice.  She will probably never look at you or speak to you again.  You're a trigger, which means that every thing you do, she thinks of you as black.  You will never change in her eyes, it is over.  Whenever she sees you, smells you, touches you, or hears your voice, it starts a trigger and she will paint you black all over again.  This is what I have learned today.

Many on here you will find... .make all the excuses in the world for BPD behavior.