Covert Incest- Brother and Sister?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I recently stumbled upon the idea of covert incest between a parent and a child. A lot of the substituting a "child" as a "spouse" for BPD parents, reminded me of my BPDmo substituting her brother in this role.  Since i've never had a brother, i'm interested in your thoughts.

Please let me preface this by stating that i have never been a fan of the word "normal" or using that word to mean some standard of decency or superiority. That said, i'm just going to throw out some behaviors that i have not seen in other families and i welcome all opinions.

My mom "Ruth" was 18 when i was born and my uncle "John" was 14. In addition to them, i initially also lived w my Grams, oldest uncle of 19 and my aunt of 16. My aunt and older uncle both moved out by the time i was nine, but the four of us- me, Ruth, John and Grams, lived together almost exclusively until i was 18.

There was always fighting over my John's affections between my Grams and my BPDmo. Family legend from my Grams states that BPDmo used to comfort my uncle when he cried after a scolding by my Grams by saying "don't love her, love me."   Classic BPD stuff.

So here's were it gets a little odd. Ruth and uncle John were CONSTANTLY talking about sex in front of me from as long as i can remember until i moved. They would discuss favorite positions and preferences (with other people) make extremely crude jokes, and discuss their sexual anatomy. (e.g., "my breasts are sore today," "that makes my dick hard," etc." They knew eachother's bra and underwear sizes.

John used to ask BPDmo to pop zits on his back shoulders and chest on almost a daily basis in front of the bathroom mirror. Although i've done this for my exes before, i personally cannot imagine doing this on any family members or friends without feeling an "eew!" tingle.   I do not remember any overt sexual touching between them. There was one time when she "penis checked" him in the bathroom for an STD. The 3 of us would take trips to Jamaica and she would encourage him to rent prostitutes.

When i was 6, we had to move out for a year because BPDmo accused Grams of having sex w my uncle John.  We only moved down the street and John would come over at all hours and demand to "borrow" money. It makes no sense that she was expected to do this. He once smashed our window out in freezing whether when she had no money to lend him.

Ruth gave John the power and responsibility for my caretaking, rule setting, etc. He was expected to drive me places even when she was available but tired. When there was something questionable i wanted permission from my mom for, Ruth would often say, "if uncle Jonny says, 'yes,' then it's ok."

The last time John ever had a girlfriend i was about 11 and he was 25. He died 2yrs ago at age 50 still living with my Grams. my BPDmo had many boyfriends but neither my uncle nor Grams ever approved of any of them. When i was 15, my BPDmo got engaged and we were going to move to NY after the marriage, but, for reasons i never understood, BPDmo said she "couldn't" because "John and Grams won't let me."             

Right now I really need to know what others think of all this, if anything.

TY!

[PleaseValidate]

I recently stumbled upon the idea of covert incest between a parent and a child. A lot of the substituting a "child" as a "spouse" for BPD parents, reminded me of my BPDmo substituting her brother in this role.  Since i've never had a brother, i'm interested in your thoughts.

Please let me preface this by stating that i have never been a fan of the word "normal" or using that word to mean some standard of decency or superiority. That said, i'm just going to throw out some behaviors that i have not seen in other families and i welcome all opinions.

My mom "Ruth" was 18 when i was born and my uncle "John" was 14. In addition to them, i initially also lived w my Grams, oldest uncle of 19 and my aunt of 16. My aunt and older uncle both moved out by the time i was nine, but the four of us- me, Ruth, John and Grams, lived together almost exclusively until i was 18.

There was always fighting over my John's affections between my Grams and my BPDmo. Family legend from my Grams states that BPDmo used to comfort my uncle when he cried after a scolding by my Grams by saying "don't love her, love me."   Classic BPD stuff.

So here's were it gets a little odd. Ruth and uncle John were CONSTANTLY talking about sex in front of me from as long as i can remember until i moved. They would discuss favorite positions and preferences (with other people) make extremely crude jokes, and discuss their sexual anatomy. (e.g., "my breasts are sore today," "that makes my dick hard," etc." They knew eachother's bra and underwear sizes.

John used to ask BPDmo to pop zits on his back shoulders and chest on almost a daily basis in front of the bathroom mirror. Although i've done this for my exes before, i personally cannot imagine doing this on any family members or friends without feeling an "eew!" tingle.   I do not remember any overt sexual touching between them. There was one time when she "penis checked" him in the bathroom for an STD. The 3 of us would take trips to Jamaica and she would encourage him to rent prostitutes.

When i was 6, we had to move out for a year because BPDmo accused Grams of having sex w my uncle John.  We only moved down the street and John would come over at all hours and demand to "borrow" money. It makes no sense that she was expected to do this. He once smashed our window out in freezing whether when she had no money to lend him.

Ruth gave John the power and responsibility for my caretaking, rule setting, etc. He was expected to drive me places even when she was available but tired. When there was something questionable i wanted permission from my mom for, Ruth would often say, "if uncle Jonny says, 'yes,' then it's ok."

The last time John ever had a girlfriend i was about 11 and he was 25. He died 2yrs ago at age 50 still living with my Grams. my BPDmo had many boyfriends but neither my uncle nor Grams ever approved of any of them. When i was 15, my BPDmo got engaged and we were going to move to NY after the marriage, but, for reasons i never understood, BPDmo said she "couldn't" because "John and Grams won't let me."             

Right now I really need to know what others think of all this, if anything.

TY!

[enlighten me]

I find it very interesting.

My uBPDexgf is very close to her younger half brother. She idolises him and Talks about him and all his conquests. I have felt that her feelings towards him had an incestuous ring to them. He stayed with us for a while when he split up from his exgf and my ex didn't want him to move out. He on the other hand couldn't wait to go.

I have also noticed the way my exgf behaves with her S8. She will say things like. He's such an understanding soul he will make a great husband. It is like his expressions of love for her are being interpreted in a more adult way by her.

I think that the fact that family members are seen in an idolised way and don't get devalued like partners portrays to the BPD an image of their ideal partner. The BPD knows that a family member loves them but cant accept it that their partner does.

[PleaseValidate]

I think that the fact that family members are seen in an idolised way and don't get devalued like partners portrays to the BPD an image of their ideal partner. The BPD knows that a family member loves them but cant accept it that their partner does.

Hi enlighten,  Ty for your fb! Now that you mention it,  I'm reminded that my BPDmo compares ALL men to her brother- all the boys she crushes on, all the men I've dated, etc. I totally blocked this out ever though she called me in February to ask if I wanted to date her plumber who was "just like Jonny but too young for [her]."

The thing is, her brothers was extremely abusive to me on all levels and almost daily. I've told her this many times but she ignores it because it doesn't fit her schema of him. No matter how many times I repeat it, she just won't hear it. And on matter how many times I tell her he had a mean sense of humor,  an angry disposition,  and I don't even want people like that IN MY LIFE let alone DATE, it is like she's deaf and can only lip read those who speak Swahile.

Now I'm wondering what came first- her looser antisocial druggie boyfriends or my lower uncle's antisocial drug addictions? Deep. (Hee-hee)

Yet unlike your exgf step bro, my uncle was a willing participant in these behaviors. I never saw any want of him to break free while he was alive. And actually,  in his final email s he was telling his other sibs that when their mom died, he was gonna "go rent the spare bedroom at Ruth's," yet it was clear from the emails she had no knowledge of this. (Although I'm sure she would have let him.) This makes me wonder what would have become of "them" now that my grandmother died. (Fun fact: BPDmo now rents out "rooms" [I.e., her bedroom,  living room,  and loft] to 3 random guys she met on Craigslist. She wasn't doing this when my uncle was describing her plan to live w her.)


I feel very sorry for your exgf son. He will most likely grow up w some confusions re boy girl relations at the very least.

[enlighten me]

Hi Please validate

I do worry for her children and the son we have together.

Her son is the man of the family in my exs eyes. She is projecting all sorts of adult behaviour on him. i.e you will make someone such a caring husband one day, you have such a pure soul I wish all men could be like you etc etc.

It may not seem much but he is eight and more interested in dinosaurs than being a shiny example of a caring, sensitive man.

Her D9 on the other hand is showing BPD traits and her and her mum have a very fiery relationship. Constant pushing and pulling and both of them flair up and scream in each others faces. The daughter is also quite spiteful, selfish, tells lies and shows no remorse. Its all crocodile tears with her.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, PleaseValidate,

It sounds like Ruth and John had very few boundaries between them. Perhaps they were enmeshed with one another and used one another to get their own needs met. Maybe neither one of them knew how to function on their own or how to have a healthy balance in a relationship with a romantic partner.

What I find concerning, more than whatever relationship they may have had with one another, is that you as a small child were exposed to such detailed conversations about their sex lives and bodies. What impact has that had on you? How are you processing those memories?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[PleaseValidate]

Ty for your input P.F. Change. Their inappropriate sexualization definitely made me feel uncomfortable around all adult and/or older male relatives which continues today. (Although I don't see many nowadays so, thankfully,  it currently has little impact.) The trigger for these returning feelings and this examination stems from Ruth now behaving this way w her OLDER and now only living brother.

The last time I saw them both (and i hope I am not being too graphic but I want to give the full illustration as I question if i overreacted) older uncle made a joke about John's old Penthouse mags being "stuck together. " I'm in my 30 now and even though I've never been a fan of crude jokes, i probably would've giggled if it was a friend making the same reference. But still, at my age,  I felt very uncomfortable hearing it from my uncle said for me and my BPDmo to laugh (which she of course did.)  On this same day he also made a reference about my aunt having a nicer ass than mine to fill out a dress.

I know I said earlier that I wanted to stay away from the term "normal" but maybe that was a lie. Not having any siblings myself,  I think i am genuinely seeking to know "how close is too close if ever?" This is subjective of course but the question is only one I've recently considered.

As for why I want to know this, i really just want to "know" as much as possible (when possible) about everything!  A tad ambitious perhaps but learning new things and understanding the world around me makes me happy 

[P.F.Change]

I know I said earlier that I wanted to stay away from the term "normal" but maybe that was a lie. Not having any siblings myself,  I think i am genuinely seeking to know "how close is too close if ever?" This is subjective of course but the question is only one I've recently considered.

I agree, some of these questions may be a bit subjective. In regards to your feelings and perceptions, it sounds like Ruth and John's relationship seemed too close to you. And that's valid, whether or not anyone else agrees. Your feelings matter.

That said, if I am the subject, I would feel the relationship was "too close," too. I don't talk that way with my sibling or close friends. Heck, I don't even talk that way with my husband.   That is where things are subjective--I clearly have different boundaries than Ruth and John did, and as adults we all have a right to choose our own boundaries in relationships.

When it comes to children, though, things are different. Children rely on adults to provide healthy boundaries for them. Exposing children to sexual information they are too young to understand or deal with is a form of abuse. Comments to a child about her sexual attractiveness are also abusive. Have you considered how that may apply to your experience? Whether or not Ruth and John and your other uncle had inappropriate boundaries with each other, they had inappropriate boundaries with you. That is what I find concerning.

As for why I want to know this, i really just want to "know" as much as possible (when possible) about everything!  A tad ambitious perhaps but learning new things and understanding the world around me makes me happy 

Sometimes (and I'm speaking from personal experience here), intellectualizing an issue can be a way of avoiding feelings. I mean, of course educating ourselves and making sense of things can help us process our experiences and help us feel more secure; it can also be a handy distraction from actually sitting with uncomfortable feelings like fear or shame or helplessness. I sometimes still have trouble with this, but now I am more able to allow myself to feel rather than trying to stuff it somewhere or minimize it. How are you at accessing your feelings?

PF

[PleaseValidate]

Thanks again, PF. I do have a habit of intellectualizing first and then accessing my feelings.  Thankfully,  I am able to process these emotions,  especially since this is my second and last time going around with these people. Most of the feelings this second time are not new, it's more the relationship nuances such as the "brother and sister" I am now pondering. I'm also trying to figure out if my grandmother had an undx PD as well.

It's a whole different perspective since these 2 people died lately. My uncle is no longer the same emotional threat he once was. My Grams is no longer the saint I needed her to be.

Ironically,  I think it was my BPDmo withholding so much information and being so controlling that is the biggest contributor to this eternal fact finding quest in my personality. And since I mostly enjoy this side of myself,  I have at least one thing to thank her for!  

I really wish I could get some more thoughts, facts, opinions or reflections into their relationship though.  :'(

It's not only the cold hard facts which fascinate me, but the "relativity" (hee-hee) of people's perspectives and opinions as well!

[darkhorse85]

I find it very interesting.

My uBPDexgf is very close to her younger half brother. She idolises him and Talks about him and all his conquests. I have felt that her feelings towards him had an incestuous ring to them. He stayed with us for a while when he split up from his exgf and my ex didn't want him to move out. He on the other hand couldn't wait to go.

I have also noticed the way my exgf behaves with her S8. She will say things like. He's such an understanding soul he will make a great husband. It is like his expressions of love for her are being interpreted in a more adult way by her.

I think that the fact that family members are seen in an idolised way and don't get devalued like partners portrays to the BPD an image of their ideal partner. The BPD knows that a family member loves them but can't accept it that their partner does.

I can't believe how much I can relate to this. My BPD-ex, moved her brother in with us both when we were living together. He had just split up with his girlfriend. I had the same experience not accepting that I, her partner and fiance love her. Despite obvious factual events and terrible treatment to me and her received, she would accept wrong doing by him. She devalued me  started making meals for him and not me. He's a cuckoo. they grew up in a small apartment together one bedroom for the family of four. This was not good. I love her but I cannot help thinking and with that maybe something did happen.

And why the f#@& is there nothing to fix this situation. Is there nothing that can be done? I hate it.

[enlighten me]

Hi Darkhorse

I don't think anything ever happened but I do feel that my exs connection with her brother isn't healthy. Her brother is getting married soon and had a kid with his fiancé a little while back. I got a sense there was a falling out between her and her brother. Im not sure if she got jealous and played up or what. Im sure the wedding will be stressful for her. Probably why he's not having any family there and just having a reception for them.

[Keptbyhim1]

Adult/Teen Behavioral Analysis: Covert z
www.drsojinpark.blogspot.com/2017/02/covert-emotional-incest-siblings.html?m=1

This article gives awesome insight on this topic