Mother wants relationship with my son but not me

[Depression = 72% of members]

I just joined recently and posted a little about my mom.  She is high-functioning BPD (My brother and I think), and recently we had a giant blow up while she and my father were visiting.  She is not cold and unloving, and her many admirable qualities have made me try and work on things for years.  But the unpredictable rages, criticism, refusal to see reality, etc... .have gotten to be too much.  I am almost 40, and I cannot spend the rest of my life internalizing her mental illness.  Our blow up was a little over three weeks ago, and we didn't speak for a week and a half.  Then she emails me this:

"We would like to Skype with our grandson.  If he would like to, please give us an appointment time."

I emailed back we were home, he would love to, and to call us anytime.  We waited for hours, and she never called.  My son cried.  The next day, she asked again, and I said that I was at work.  She said give me another time.  I did.  She said they were busy then and that was it. 

A few days later, she has my dad call (I can hear her harping in the background) to ask if we are still coming for a planned trip in August.  I said I didn't know.  Then he called back five minutes later to ask when my husband and I were going to return a tool we borrowed. 

I decided that I had to try something to end the impasse, so I sent her a very carefully worded, planned letter.  It said many positive things, and very kindly said I think she has a mental illness that needs professional treatment (without using the term BPD at all).  I explained that I understood how her past has created these feelings and dynamics, and that I want to work on our relationship if she is willing to discuss things honestly.  She ignored this email completely.

(I'm getting to the point, I promise... .)

Today she asked to Skype with him again.  I told her he was with his other grandparents (a very sore subject for her).  She responded that she would not ask again and if my son ever wanted to Skype with them to call my dad.

So, I think she intends to try and maintain a relationship with my son (who is 5, by the way) and ignore me completely.  How would this even be possible?  Has anyone here ever done this?  He loves her, and he ADORES my father.  My father has enabled her for 41 years, and even though he understands my position, he will not "betray" her.  Sometimes I think my son would be better off without her, but not my dad.  I cannot go back to the way things were just so my son can have his grandma, but I do not think she will ever accept that she has any issue at all and will never get help.

I am so incredibly sad.  My mother is funny, interesting, and supportive, unless she feels threatened (which is much too often) and then she turns on you.  She threatened to hit me during this last episode, which she's never done.  I feel sorry for her, but I feel sorry for myself, too. 

I apologize for rambling, I am just lost today.

[littlebirdcline]

I just joined recently and posted a little about my mom.  She is high-functioning BPD (My brother and I think), and recently we had a giant blow up while she and my father were visiting.  She is not cold and unloving, and her many admirable qualities have made me try and work on things for years.  But the unpredictable rages, criticism, refusal to see reality, etc... .have gotten to be too much.  I am almost 40, and I cannot spend the rest of my life internalizing her mental illness.  Our blow up was a little over three weeks ago, and we didn't speak for a week and a half.  Then she emails me this:

"We would like to Skype with our grandson.  If he would like to, please give us an appointment time."

I emailed back we were home, he would love to, and to call us anytime.  We waited for hours, and she never called.  My son cried.  The next day, she asked again, and I said that I was at work.  She said give me another time.  I did.  She said they were busy then and that was it. 

A few days later, she has my dad call (I can hear her harping in the background) to ask if we are still coming for a planned trip in August.  I said I didn't know.  Then he called back five minutes later to ask when my husband and I were going to return a tool we borrowed. 

I decided that I had to try something to end the impasse, so I sent her a very carefully worded, planned letter.  It said many positive things, and very kindly said I think she has a mental illness that needs professional treatment (without using the term BPD at all).  I explained that I understood how her past has created these feelings and dynamics, and that I want to work on our relationship if she is willing to discuss things honestly.  She ignored this email completely.

(I'm getting to the point, I promise... .)

Today she asked to Skype with him again.  I told her he was with his other grandparents (a very sore subject for her).  She responded that she would not ask again and if my son ever wanted to Skype with them to call my dad.

So, I think she intends to try and maintain a relationship with my son (who is 5, by the way) and ignore me completely.  How would this even be possible?  Has anyone here ever done this?  He loves her, and he ADORES my father.  My father has enabled her for 41 years, and even though he understands my position, he will not "betray" her.  Sometimes I think my son would be better off without her, but not my dad.  I cannot go back to the way things were just so my son can have his grandma, but I do not think she will ever accept that she has any issue at all and will never get help.

I am so incredibly sad.  My mother is funny, interesting, and supportive, unless she feels threatened (which is much too often) and then she turns on you.  She threatened to hit me during this last episode, which she's never done.  I feel sorry for her, but I feel sorry for myself, too. 

I apologize for rambling, I am just lost today.

[littlebirdcline]

I feel I should I that earlier this year I was diagnosed with narcolepsy and the stress/ emotional turmoil of all this is negative the positive effects of my medication and making it hard to function. 

[Botswana Agate]

Wow, that's a big one.  First, you must take care of yourself with your recent diagnosis and get that under control.   

Secondly, my first instinct is to say that no one gets a relationship with my kids by going around (ignoring) me.  Especially since she threatened physical violence on you in the last visit?  That sounds like a clear boundary violation, and one that can NOT be breached especially around your children.  BPD or not, you just can't expose your kids to that, IMO. 

I remember a conversation with my Dad many months ago after I'd put BPDm in no-contact, and he wondered/asked if she'd ever get to see or visit with our DDs again.  I flat-out told him no, that the kids and I are a package deal--BPDm is NOT allowed to treat me the way she did (read previous posts for b/g) and still get a relationship with my kids.  All that teaches them is that they can treat someone like total dung and still get what they want.  Not happening.

[Enoughforme]

I agree with Agate. I am in your situation. Though I have let me son who is now 10 see the interaction with myself and his grandmother he has learned some bad behavior though out that time. Would you want your son to treat people like that ? Because he will learn that it is acceptable, it is to his mother and father so it must be. Especially for that age. I know I wish I could turn back time but I never saw it I was so deep in the fog. If I could do it again I would tell my mother as I do today- No relationship with the kids without me, and I do not let her alone with them because you never know how she is going to spin it to look like you are the monster and you are the one withholding his contact. The good news is that when they get a little older thy do see the inconstancies. I wish you the best of luck.

[littlebirdcline]

Thanks, y'all.  You're right.  It's just so hard to do.  Part of me wishes this had happened when he was smaller and hadn't become so attached. 

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

[HappyChappy]

The problem with this, is if you mom is pathologicaly BPD she will heavily influence your kid, which will not be in your best intrests. It will be devisive.

Also your health should come first. The games BPD play through proxy aren't good for you health either.

When my BPD tried this, because I had gone NC with my BPD, she souped guilt on my wife saying it wasn't fair on our kids. My wife wrote back saying the most important relationship a mother has is with their own children, not with someone elses children. It's been quiet on the Wester Front ever since.

[Botswana Agate]

Oh, my oldest DD had become quite attached to Grandma.  She's 11 now.  Though the more I think about it, I don't know if I'd call it attachment as much as I'd call it another generation of enmeshment starting.  That scares me so much it makes me physically ill, sitting here and typing it.  Seriously.

So when the CO had to happen, DD1 threw quite the fit when she was told Grandma would not be a part of our lives anymore.  I tried to be gentle about it, but when DD1 became disrespectful toward me, I was very blunt and said, "because Grandma sent us a letter saying Grandpa was going to kill her and it wasn't true, and you just don't do things like that to people!" and sent her to her room.  We later had a talk about her disrespect/mouthiness ("great, gee THANKS for taking a grandparent away from me!", and why it was NOT okay for Grandma to do what she did.  She gets it, I think.  Sometimes she'll smart off something like "other kids have grandparents to do things with" or something like that (especially when we're having trouble with the ILs) and I'll look directly at her and say,  "do you really want to go there again?" and she knocks it off immediately.  She's strong-willed and mouthy, I have my work cut-out for me.    

Now, YOU sweet person, have to figure out if you're going to set boundaries with your BPDm and Dad about all this.  :)ifferent people are at different places with boundaries.  If you do set them based on your BPD's recent treatment of you--no seeing DS until BPD owns up and apologizes for her fit-throwing before the whole Skype thing, not showing up for the Skype and letting your son down, threatening to hit you--be prepared for rages, gaslighting, crying fits, or whatever manipulations your BPD is good at when she realizes you aren't backing down.  Also, because you mentioned an apology, fauxpologies can be common.  The one my BPDm offered for her death-threat stunt was all of one line and twelve words long.  

Another thing, you mentioned that your Dad was an enabler.  So's mine.  When I told him that the girls and I were a package deal and the BPDm would NOT see them, he thought he would call my bluff and say that she and *he* were a package deal and that maybe I shouldn't see him (I didn't impose the CO on him).  I stood my ground and told him if that was the way he felt, he could walk right out the door and I'd wish him well if that was his choice--and I pointed to the door.  He got the message.  So, if you go that route of setting boundaries, be prepared that your Dad will likely defend BPDm to keep his own peace at home.  That was a hard thing for me to accept (the possibility of giving up the relationship with him based on his loyalty to her) but I was willing to do it based on my CO of her; I was not willing to offer up my kids or my sanity for either him or her.  Enough was enough.

I rambled; hope that made sense.  It's a tough road, especially with young children.  You want to break the cycle of BPD and its influences wherever and whenever possible.  Big ((HUGS)).  

[Botswana Agate]

HappyChappy brings up a very good point; does your husband have your back should you decide to set boundaries?  Is he familiar with BPD?

[funfunctional]

Hi there,

I am sorry for what you are going thru.  It is not normal and it's just not nice. 

I will warn you about BPD pulling the "I want the relationship with YOUR kid but not you".    My husband got caught up in this and as a result LOST his son to his x wife full custody.    HIS BPD mother hated the x wife until I came into his life and once she realized we were serious she quickly switched gears to work with x wife on getting me out of his life.   Part of that was to create a divide between my step son and me BUT BPD mom called grandson all the time and between he and his mother they planted awful seeds of hate and mistrust and completely made up stuff.    She had a private investigator look into my background & whether or not I was lying about selling my house and also spread around that I was an alcoholic.  The "stories" went on and on.   My husband subtracted her 3 years ago.   We ignore everything.

She uses step son and tries to use step daughter to say "dad is terrible - he won't talk to his own mother" and we have the xwife LOVING THIS because she can chime in and say YES,  DAD IS BAD.   She has her own agenda and needs to feel justified in cheating on my husband & leaving him for a close family friend.

We can feel compassion for BPD people that are TRYING to fix their issue but what I warn you of is that they will play with a young person's emotions and make themselves out to be victims and your kid may end up really confused.   She can affect your relationship with your own kid.   

My answer would be NO but not out loud.   You and your son are a team.    Say nothing but keep him away from her.     You may want to shut her down completely now.    Block calls before she hooks the kid into private calls and sneaking around.     

Sorry If I am assuming too much - I just have to say all this and I may be applying my own experience too much here. 

[nomom4me]

Uhg, this is fairly new to me but the game is becoming old hat, BPD grandma wants grandkids on demand - I have a 6 month old and have had very limited contact with my mom for the past 3+ years.  As soon as there was a new baby in the picture it was time for another round of demands for a "fresh start" and demands to stop by at little notice, and other sneaky little tricky to get my address (my partner has requested she not have it).  Perfectly decent conversations wind up with, "by the way I neeeeeeeeed to send something for the baby".  She lives 30 minutes away and has never tried to meet me on neutral ground, she wants to send letters because we don't want her having our address.

I've seen this play out with my niece, my mother used her to manipulate my brother and seriously damaged their relationship.  She used low-cost "childcare" to control my sister, and she is just so flustered that I am not going to let her use an innocent child to play control games.  It's all about control, when the kids are old enough to be willful she looses interest. My mom has gone as far as threatening legal petition for grandparents rights in the past, I'm keeping copies of everything and think about risk Vs benefit before having any interaction with her.

[Botswana Agate]

Grandparents' rights, that's another thing.  I have copies of all the crazy e-mails BPDm sent (including the original death-threat that started it all) so she has no leg to stand on if she *ever* tries to pull that.  My Dad mentioned that in passing once--I think it was the same conversation about not seeing him if he and Grandma were going to be a "package deal" like the kids and I were--and I shut that down so fast he never mentioned it again.

Littlebirdcline, that may be something to consider as you think about setting boundaries.  Desperate people, especially those with BPD, may resort to desperate threats like grandparents rights to get what they want (the grandchildren) or to get you back in line.  You might want to keep a small log/journal/whatever of crazy stuff your BPDm has done, especially the threat of physical violence to you just recently.  You hope it may never come in handy, but it's just something good to have on hand. 

Just my own experience.

[funfunctional]

Yup.

My Mother In Law (BPD) did this to my SIL (her daughter).

Threatened to take her to court for grandparents rights.

Interesting this is common theme.

What a horrible thing to threaten our own kids with taking "rights" to their own kids away.

Sorry to hear all this.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, littlebirdcline,

I can see why you are in a tough spot. You obviously care about your son and want to give him as good a relationship as possible with his grandparents. Sometimes that ends up being much more limited than the ideal, but depending on the situation, it can still be possible.

I emailed back we were home, he would love to, and to call us anytime.  We waited for hours, and she never called.  My son cried.  The next day, she asked again, and I said that I was at work.  She said give me another time.  I did.  She said they were busy then and that was it. 

I learned fairly early not to tell my children what time their grandparents were planning to call or visit--I'd just let it be a happy surprise if my parents actually got around to showing up on time. I spent one too many times sitting around waiting for them and consoling disappointed kiddos. After that, we just went about our usual routine and kept things vague, like "Grandparents are thinking about possibly visiting sometime soon, I'm not sure if it will happen or not. They'll call us if they make it to town."

So, I think she intends to try and maintain a relationship with my son (who is 5, by the way) and ignore me completely.  How would this even be possible?  Has anyone here ever done this?  He loves her, and he ADORES my father.

For me, it would not be possible, as I supervise all contact between my children and my parents. They know that I am listening when they are on the phone together, and that I read the mail before giving it to the kids. Still, it allows my children to have some limited connection with their grandparents, which they seem to appreciate. It sounds like you are willing to help your son have contact with his grandparents as well. I think it is possible to do that and keep things safe on your end. From what your mother wrote, it sounds like you can call your dad whenever your son expresses interest. To me, that sounds pretty good. What do you think?

Have you had a chance to look at any of the board Lessons, such as TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth? They can really come in handy.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[littlebirdcline]

Agate-

My husband is a hostage negotiator and trains other police officers how to deal with citizens with mental issues, so he looks at it in a very different manner than most spouses, I think.  He has wanted me to cut off contact for years.  If I decided to try and maintain a relationship with her, he will not try to stop me, but he wouldn't be happy about it.  When my mother and I had the blowout a month ago, he went into "cop mode" and resolved the situation more calmly than you can imagine.  His priority is me and my son, and god help anyone who gets in the way of that. 

Thanks for the support everyone.  Going to my therapist Thursday, hoping she can help me get some  clarity. 

[littlebirdcline]

So, my mother sent me an email yesterday blaming me for everything, telling me what a horrible person I am, a spoiled brat, accusing me of destroying our family and expressing her outrage that I have the audacity not to apologize to her.  She ended by saying "Without you and me there is no family, but if you are okay with that I am too."  She accepts absolutely no responsibility for anything.  Ever.  Frankly, I don't think she can be trusted not to say something inappropriate to my son, who is hypersensitive.  I had to donate to Unicef the other day (not that that's a bad thing) because he couldn't stop crying over "all the dying babies" in the commercial.  I worry that anything she said to him would hit him way too hard. 

So I wrote her back and said I agreed the family was hurting but beyond that, we had very different viewpoints on the situation.  I said I wasn't ready to deal with those differences, and until there was some sort of resolution between us I didn't want to put him in the middle.

What I wanted to do was write her back and tell her every way in which she was wrong and insane, but I didn't.  It would only make things worse.  I didn't realize until now just how much anger and hurt I had pushed to the background, and now that it's out in the open, I can't contain it.  I want to have compassion for her, but at the moment, I just want to scream at her until I lose my voice.  All it would do is fan the flames. 

I wish I could just get rid of this burning desire to make her see reality.  To make her see me.  It occurred to me that I would always have said we were really close.  But we were always just discussing events, never feelings.  Any honest feeling on my part had to be screened and filtered, and she just vomited hers onto me without accepting anything back. 

They never really "see" others do they?  They just see the mask that they project onto us, with all their misconceptions and assumptions.  Maybe that's what I really want- for her to actually see me for who I am. 

Okay.  Rant over.

[Botswana Agate]

I think that's what made my CO of my BPDm easier--realizing the fact that she would NEVER see either me or her treatment of me for the realities they are.  She would NEVER see her actions--the death-threat e-mail, the manipulations and crazy-making e-mails after that, the suicide "attempt", all the attention-getting flings or things she's said before--as reality or for what they REALLY ARE.  She has NEVER accepted any responsibility for anything she's done, it's always ALWAYS been someone else's fault.

Absolutely no way would I ever put my kids even close to that.  Ever.  I, too, am worth better than that.  So are you.  

ETA:  That's NOT to say that a CO is right for you, I'm just saying that those realizations above are part of what made it easier for me.  You do whatever is right for YOU.   

[P.F.Change]

Maybe that's what I really want- for her to actually see me for who I am. 

This is a big realization, littlebirdcline. I think we all have wished for that. It can be a lot to grieve, realizing our parent isn't going to be capable of seeing us for who we are. It can also be liberating--we can stop going around in circles trying to get them to see and understand us.

It sounds like you did a good job responding calmly and honestly, staying in Wise Mind. It is good you did not react by yelling and screaming. That anger is normal, too. It can really help to work through it with a therapist.

[lauren2013]

littlebirdcline - I am in the same situation that you are in.  I have a 10 month old daughter and I have not spoken to my mom since November 2013 (so 8 months - but who's counting?).  I have endured emotional abuse and paralyzing anxiety for 30+ years.  For some reason, and maybe it has to do with the fact that I had my baby in September, but I just hit my breaking point.  My mom has torn me up and broken me down for years and years, but my fear of her has kept me close.  Not close like we had a close relationship... .I just never went no contact.  She is manipulative, rageful, controlling, and she is completely unpredictable.  She uses other people with me the same way she is trying to use your son.  She makes things about someone else so that YOU look like the bad guy.  "How dare you keep my grandson away from me?" or "How could you hurt your father like that?"  The truth is, you're not doing ANYTHING wrong.  You are protecting yourself and your family and that is NUMBER ONE.  You have your own family now - she is extended family - and she cannot pressure you into doing anything that you do not want to do.  If you feel like it is unhealthy for you or your son to have contact with her, so be it.  Don't question your gut feeling just because it seems extreme or it's not the same situation most other people are in.  They are not you and they don't know the emotional trauma that someone with BPD can do.  Just be confident in what you feel and don't give her the power.

My dad is the same way.  He would be so much happier without my mom... .he's relatively normal and has a sweet heart... .but he has chosen her.  He doesn't really contact me much and he doesn't make an effort to ask about my daughter (his granddaughter) at all.  I can't really wrap my head around it b/c I KNOW he knows how crazy she is and I KNOW he isn't happy, but he still stays there... .withering away.  I had to learn to let go.  He is an adult and he is making a CHOICE.  No one is forcing him to make the choices he is making.  He is a big kid.  So instead of feeling guilty and trying to change things (like I've done since I was little), I am saying "well, he can make his own decisions, and this is what he is choosing to do, so I have no control over that."  It really helps to bring everyone down to the same playing field and not get caught up in hierarchies, titles (mom, dad, stranger, brother), and to just say Person A is treating me terribly, so I don't want to associate with Person A.  Person B is deciding that they would rather associate with Person A than with me, so be it.  If anyone else were to treat you the way your mom has treated you, would you be ok with that?  Probably not.  I vote for No Contact.

[Louise7777]

I have seen that in my family too. I have 2 uBPD aunts and I was used as a kid too. Well, they use anything they can in order to get what they want, no compassion, no morals, no ethics... .

I dont have much to add, just wanted to show you my sympathy. Please protect your child. As others have said, she may try to turn your  kid against you. They do it in subtle ways too.

Like you, I felt invisible to my family. I think I even wrote a thread on it, not sure... .It was always me listening to their problems (totally inappropriate for a child/ teenager) and they never asked me about my feelings. To this day, they dont know me at all. They have some distorted image of who I am (manipulative), which is probably a projection. Its all very strange, sometimes they saw me as an idiot, other times as a evil manipulative person... .

Im NC and Im so relieved.