The false self

[Mutt]

I was sent a link on shame and parenting from a friend. As I read through the article something stuck out and is parallel to what thoughts that I have been thinking lately.

Families exist to nurture (fill the needs of) their members. My research as a professional  family-systems  therapist since 1979 suggests that  most American (and other?) adults were raised in  low-nurturance  environments. This seems to cause up to six psychological  wounds.  

The core wound is developing a fragmented, disorganized  personality  governed by a   false self.

I'm not a psychologist by any means but the false self in my case would be Rescuer / Knight in Shining armor and I have to let go of this ideal. My FOO was the perfect concoction and had all of the ingredients to form a psychological wound, false sense of self. I carried around a lot of shame and guilt for years due to my upbringing that really didn't belong to me.

I am that rescuer type.  The more that I learn about BPD and I'm starting to learn about the effects of a borderline mother on her children and projecting shame on her children, I see a reflection of myself.

I'm honestly not familiar enough with the false self, it mentions it's a personality wound. If it's a part of your personality, than its difficult to change. I am self aware, I do know that I wear armor and I tend to rescue.

Since my split with the ex, my SD15 has been having a lot of difficulties and hardships at home. I have 3 kids of my own with my ex and I regard SD as one of mine but the r/s is strained because of my ex and her FOG.  She used to say to SD15 that I didn't love her and that I didn't love my SD. It's parental alienation to her own SD.

Her r/s to her real father is nil to near non-existent and she feels like she was abandoned by her own father as well.

I had a feeling that when ex left and the bf hadn't moved in yet that the vitriol had to go somewhere. I put up my boundaries and unfortunately she was next in line. I did get a chance to talk to her recently and she said mom would have disproportionate anger for something completely different earlier in the week and be punishingly cruel. There was some physical abuse. My wife splits her as well and this was one of those black splits. To make a long story shorter, my SD had been bounced around from her aunts, grandmother and a friends and now she went back home, likely on one of my wife's good splits. My SD was having SI and attempts as well throughout the last few months while I'm in focusing on my own kids and fighting for their rights in court.

I've come to realize that she is still attached to mom, it  her mother and by all rights she has a right to have unconditional love for her but the elephant in the room is FOG. It's a no-win situation.

I accepted that I've been stressed and having anxiety over something I can't control, my innate rescuer tendencies are at play and I need to start taking off the armor and stop rescuing and accept reality for what it is. It causes so much frustration to see a disorder and its collateral damage and having no power to do something about it. I see a beautiful young woman with so much potential being smothered by a Queen / Witch mother's insecurities and no one else see's it. SD is misjudged as being a bad kid by her family, the same people that are dysfunctional and malnourished this young woman. I had my part in some of this as well.

I realized I have to let this young woman go. I need to stop rescuing and accept reality for what it is, flow with it and not against it and accept. I'll have to let the chips fall where they may, that's life. I can try reestablishing a connection with her later in life. It's one of the four kids I simply can't protect. It is what it is.

[corraline]

Interesting Mutt.  Thanks for sharing.

I've been thinking about my own children and about how i project my own pain and childhood wounds onto them by being overly protective.  That is my rescuer taking over. 

So if we are protecting our own, how do we best do this without bringing too much of our own issues into the picture? Or overcompensating for our lack of nurturing from our own parents? Not becoming enmeshed with our children or our significant others .

I would imagine working on the FOO issues that we have first. 

Can you explain your armour for me? Is that the protective shield we wear when we come in to rescue ?

[Mutt]

Can you explain your armour for me? Is that the protective shield we wear when we come in to rescue ?

Thanks for asking corraline. This is in conjuncture with a post I came across from 2010 a little while ago and this thread is really self exploratory. This has been developing over the course of a year with my ex and SD and trying to think of how I can help but I came to realize that I'm trying to control something that is not in my control. It has caused a lot of unnecessary anxiety and stress.

I feel like it's my part in the role with my enmeshment with a borderline and the mirroring of the all good in the beginning of the r/s. That the false self, is the fractured part of ourselves that protects that inner child. Our true persona as 2010 eloquently states and I think that it means the armour that we wear? The childhood trauma that I had repressed deep down for so many years and those core wounds resurfaced post break-up with my ex. I felt tremendous pain from the breakup but there were more components associated with that pain that was very deep down.

I have identified with why I got enmeshed with a borderline with my FOO on an old PI thread, but I still have this rescuer trait that is a part of my personality. I can't comment or identify if I project that pain unto my kids, because I am a very protective person as well and the needle can go a little too far. Having said that, I had a good reason why this last year. She had primary guardianship of my kids and I was scared of the possible roadblocks and hurdles with going to court against a controlling, disassociating Queen / Witch almost literally on my own, quasi Pro-Se. My L was a paper pusher and quit, but I did mostly his work and represented myself in the end. I was hyper-vigilant for quite a few months in regards to protector and my kids.

Whether you like it or not, this person is bringing a hidden (repressed) core wound to the surface. Questioning this, even in denial, is natural. Some people are very controlled because most of their childhood was out of control. Children adapt to inconsistency for their survival.

As adults, this childhood adaptation is what is mirrored by a Borderline. When that adaptation no longer serves us for consistent and appropriate behavior-due to the chaos of Borderline beliefs

The old patterns of adaptation must now be revised. This can be very upsetting to people who worked so hard to repress the earlier childhood trauma with a structured "false self." The false self was what you thought would protect you from harm. It's also exactly the same reason why a Borderline partner is the perfect guarantee for bringing the core wound to the surface where it festers because the false self is failing to protect the true, core self from abandonment.  What you did in the past is no longer working. Being "good" is now working against you.

Trying to overcome Borderline disorder- is really a process of understanding the Borderline's initial mirroring of your false self. The false self says, "I'm good." The Borderline mirrors this good. The false self then congratulates itself for success-and broadcasts a projective identification of displaced good onto the Borderline.  This is a fusional quality where two people now feel like one and one of the reasons why these relationships are so difficult to disentangle from. The Borderline clings to the false self, then hates it. The false self panics and tries to be good again, at the expense of the true self's preservation, but the relationship decays into a push/pull battle for the initially mirrored, false good.  Both people suffer from core abandonment issues and annihilation fears but one is desperately trying to bear the weight of both people.

Although painful, the failed relationship is necessary to learn from and expand on for personal growth.  The core wound can be repaired and healed if the childhood pattern is explored and understood. Who does this person remind you of? The answer will probably change several times until it returns to a ghost-like parent. Once you realize these feelings are familiar but repressed, you can begin to process of releasing them during the abandonment depression. That is, if you leave this person. Your other choice is to hang on and continue the fight.

There comes a time when we all have to realize that the relationship we are struggling with is due to our own wishful thinking for childhood acceptance. Just like in BPD, thoughts can become beliefs. When our beliefs are so strong- yet, unsuited to personal happiness, we must discard them and replace them with new beliefs. This is the bulk of your work in the aftermath of a failed relationship, especially with someone who cuts so deeply into your core wound. We must understand the reasons why we became involved with a dramatic and erratic person who had as many ideas about who we were as we had about them. Maybe who we were has changed in the aftermath and now we can see clearly what needs to mature.  The repressed pain is at the surface and hurts, but rather than repress it again- you've got to delve into it. You can't delve into pain while simultaneously searching for the good reflection from your Borderline partner. Borderline personality disorder is a persecution complex. All you are going to find is a professional victim. Let go.

Boundaries are necessary to distance ourselves from people who don't share our healthier beliefs or who might have (with their own unhealthy belief systems) taught us to disbelieve ourselves.  This means stopping the dysfunction and discovering the emotions and sadness within that really are being medicated with your anger. As children we weren't allowed to express disappointment. Now, we can. But the disappointment is posed to who you think you are, not who you think your partner is.  Your partner only mirrored your false self.  Your sadness needs to be allowed as you let go of outdated beliefs about who you are and turn your focus to your true persona, the one who is scared and alone. That child has a need to be understood and deserves a pat on the back. Stop being distracted by trying to fix a broken mirror. Help that child.

It all begins with letting go of trying to control others and turning the focus to ourselves.  :)oing the right thing

You can read the rest of the context here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168036.40

[Xstaticaddict]

Borderline personality disorder is a persecution complex. All you are going to find is a professional victim. Let go.

Boundaries are necessary to distance ourselves from people who don't share our healthier beliefs or who might have (with their own unhealthy belief systems) taught us to disbelieve ourselves.  This means stopping the dysfunction and discovering the emotions and sadness within that really are being medicated with your anger. As children we weren't allowed to express disappointment. Now, we can. But the disappointment is posed to who you think you are, not who you think your partner is.  Your partner only mirrored your false self.  Your sadness needs to be allowed as you let go of outdated beliefs about who you are and turn your focus to your true persona, the one who is scared and alone. That child has a need to be understood and deserves a pat on the back. Stop being distracted by trying to fix a broken mirror. Help that child.

It all begins with letting go of trying to control others and turning the focus to ourselves.  :)oing the right thing

You can read the rest of the context here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168036.40

Thank you for this post Mutt, that's the kind of stuff that helps me let go of the idea that who i miss is really that person at all. Professional victim. Wow. That's her.

I feel your pain regarding feeling like you need to let go of helping your SD. I'm coming to terms with having to do the same for my ex's kids who i was part of their lives from ages 1 and 3 until present 8 and 10. It's so hard. Feels like you're letting them die, or at least the hope of them being healthy people, as they're most likely going to keep the cycle going due to their mom's choices to ignore and turn her back on any man that comes into their lives and repeat toxic relationship models. Letting go is so hard.

[Blimblam]

I was sent a link on shame and parenting from a friend. As I read through the article something stuck out and is parallel to what thoughts that I have been thinking lately.

Families exist to nurture (fill the needs of) their members. My research as a professional  family-systems  therapist since 1979 suggests that  most American (and other?) adults were raised in  low-nurturance  environments. This seems to cause up to six psychological  wounds.  

The core wound is developing a fragmented, disorganized  personality  governed by a   false self.

I'm not a psychologist by any means but the false self in my case would be Rescuer / Knight in Shining armor and I have to let go of this ideal. My FOO was the perfect concoction and had all of the ingredients to form a psychological wound, false sense of self. I carried around a lot of shame and guilt for years due to my upbringing that really didn't belong to me.

I am that rescuer type.  The more that I learn about BPD and I'm starting to learn about the effects of a borderline mother on her children and projecting shame on her children, I see a reflection of myself.

hi mutt,

I can relate to the borderline mother :'(

I was wondering if you had a link to that article? I am curious about the 6 core wounds.

I think I tend to fall into rescuer role too.

That's pretty intense being you own lawyer.  Sorry you went through all that.  You seem to be pretty centered these days.  Do you happen to know your myers briggs type?

[Mutt]

Thank you for replying and sharing Xstaticaddict. It helps to know that I'm not the only one. I don't think that I could of said it better than when you said it feels like you're letting them to die and letting go is so hard. I feel like I'm mourning.

The replacement is not faring well with my kids and he yells at them because he doesn't know how to communicate and doesn't realize how complicated a family is. It's a lot of work. He didn't have kids and now he has 4 kids part time and I'm not saying that you can't do it without having kids, but my wife and him where impulsive and didn't think things through. Maybe he acted on passion.

Since she left they have both become triggers for each other and it's a cycle. My ex splits her black and my SD is either SI or she attempts suicide, she goes to the hospital and mom pulls her out. The second time this happened child services where involved and had her stay at her grandmothers because they didn't agree with my that she should go back home. She was sent 6 hours away and her grandmother kicked her out as well because she was too difficult and she ended up staying with her friends family and seemed to stabilize again. She returned back to my ex's this week and I don't have all of the details. I spoke to her SM and told her that I am setting a boundary and I would like that we don't talk about her for awhile because I need to let this go. I was helping my SD's step-mom cope through my divorce and giving her advice. They live far away and aren't close to SD and I decided that I need to let go for myself. It's hard because I feel like she has slipped through the cracks and knowing my ex and SD and the triggers, it's not going to be nice. I didn't understand black and white thinking and splitting when I was with my ex, but the damage it has on a family is devastating. I can't be hard on myself, I tried as hard as I could and it comes down to that this is a no-win situation and it's between her and mom. I had a wonderful conversation with my SD for an hour and half and didn't pass judgement, I listened and I gave her some emotional support and validated her. Who knows, maybe this could be the catalyst for her for change. She may realize that there's something wrong with mom. I did explain a couple of mom's behaviors but because she is not diagnosed I didn't say boderline personality disorder, I explained behaviors. Maybe that will have enough of an impact.

I'm sorry that you are going through this as well Xstaticaddict    Letting of an ex is one thing, this is something entirely different because you can see... .potential.


The backstory to this is that my middle child has been acting different emotionally since the separation and he has tapered off a little bit with the attention and the emotional support that I have given him but he will sometimes become triggered and scream "I'm the worst kids in the world!" guilt then run and hide somewhere in the apartment. It was suggested and I'm thinking that he is parroting something from home and ex is projecting her shame on him. It does not mention the 6 personality types but I grew up in an invalidating environment and I can relate to that shame and guilt that really didn't belong to me, but the parent.

Here is the link Blimblam www.sfhelp.org/parent/shame.htm Unfortunately it only mentions the 6 core wounds but it's something that I'm interested in learning more about.

Thank you for the concern in regards to my L but I think it was more intense that he was my L because he was adding so much unnecessary stress and anxiety because he was a paper pusher and wanted me to do it his way. He was not concerned about BPD and was closed minded. He was a hail-mary pass because I was very scared going into court after learning about BPD. He was a public lawyer, I was broke and I asked for legal assistance and couldn't get it because I make too much. I appealed with their board and was approved. I should have listened to my instincts and fired him, but he quit before I could I had gone to court in 2010 for a false DV charge and what I learned from that and having gone to family court against ex, is that she has a pattern. My wife's bark is worse than her bite and it's the same thing as the last time. It's all or nothing. I tried the pragmatic approach with doing our own legal seperation, mediation and all of resources available that could be resolved without going to court but she refused all of them. I noticed that she doesn't like authority and judges and caved in a the end just before going to trial. Having said that, I know what was going in between was her FOG and the possibilities are there in the future that she will take me to court again. I'll be more prepared and likely not as stressed knowing that much of it is FOG and there is no in between with her and just expect that she will go as far as she can go.

You seem to be pretty centered these days.  :)o you happen to know your myers briggs type?

Thank you for noticing Blimblam. I've had friends a co-worker comment and tell me that they notice that there is a positive change, I'm happier and that I seem different. I give bpdfamily.com credit to that. I have a colorful upbringing to say the least and I felt like I was a Misfit Toy when I joined. I'm not saying that every member comes from an invalidating or unnurturing environment, some members come from healthy families. It was an ugly break-up and divorce but I saw an oppurtunity to embrace the pain and work through my FOO issues and identify why I enmeshed myself with a borderline. The support from members and senior members, tools and resources here are invaluable. Something clicked in the last few weeks and I'm not sure what, but I feel different. Embracing the pain and letting go of shame and guilt of a parent and an ex helped me in finding out about myself and who I am, because a lot of the pain that I was carrying for many years didn't belong to me, it belonged to someone else

No I don't know myers briggs type but I'll check into it. Thanks for sharing that Blimblam much appreciated.

[Xstaticaddict]

I had a wonderful conversation with my SD for an hour and half and didn't pass judgement, I listened and I gave her some emotional support and validated her. Who knows, maybe this could be the catalyst for her for change. She may realize that there's something wrong with mom. I did explain a couple of mom's behaviors but because she is not diagnosed I didn't say boderline personality disorder, I explained behaviors. Maybe that will have enough of an impact.

I'm sorry that you are going through this as well Xstaticaddict    Letting of an ex is one thing, this is something entirely different because you can see... .potential.

Ugh potential... .the most dangerous word i know. Lost 6 years of my life to the potential of my potentially model hot, (if she just took care of herself), super talented (but never used her talents), great cook (who never cooked meals unless hounded), sexpot (but only her way and with so many limitations) ex.

I have very general conversations with her daughter (10) and i try to make it about her paying attention to how she feels and if her needs are being met and to stand up for herself instead of making it about how screwed up her mom is. Soon though if we stay in contact (i let her know she can always call and contact anyone in my family if she needs someone) I'll definitely point out this site and info that has helped me and she can hopefully start her journey into recovery while the damage is actually being done, but that may be too advanced for a young mind to process, and ultimately it sucks that she should have to. I already notice massive co-dependent issues with her and her brother because in some ways they're all they have and she raised her younger brother. (Mom BPD and talking to some people who knew their dad from school they think he's schizophrenic) They're pretty much doomed genetically and behaviorally with their "parents". I just feel like such a failure to not be able to protect them, which is ironic since i at first resented them but by the end of the relationship they were the reason i put up with my ex's uselessness for so long. (that and being unfathomably attracted to her)

Your SD sounds very troubled and it must be much harder for you than what I'm going through knowing that she very well could end up not making it through this.

When i look at the situation with compassion for everyone, myself included, i have to surrender control to the fact that what i was trying to do, (fix and help) was built on a rotten foundation. If i'd gotten my life together and figured out who i was before i started a relationship w my ex (which i had fully intended to do, and said i wasn't going to be in another relationship for at least a year, then immediately latched on to my ex... .ugh) then i wouldn't have even known those kids because someone like my ex wouldn't make the cut and i wouldn't have needed to save her to feel like a man. I look on the good moments I've had with the kids as the counter weight to all the misery i've been in the last 4 months having to let go of them. Eventually the waves will settle and there will be a stillness from which I'll be able to reach out again in a way that might just make a real and lasting difference in their lives. Not because i need to, but because i'm able to. Wisdom from suffering is what makes us stronger. The fact that we don't look away (or run) like our BPD ex's is what feels the most healthy to me and what i gain courage from when I'm confused about how disordered or co-dependent I may be as well.

I just got back from an awesome dance class, and had all kinds of vital passionate fun and attractive women literally lining up hoping to dance w me. I walked out of there and a fleeting thought ran through my head, that there was no way i could have done something like this with, or while with my ex. She would have been so jealous and would have poisoned the whole thing. I'm definitely healing and i can tell. Things do start feeling better quickly when you truly invest in yourself, and sadly, or maybe not so sadly, a huge part of that is letting go of the pressure to save everyone from themselves.

I'm so grateful for you and for this forum, and for the level of collective consciousness that can happen due to technology in general. It really is the vehicle for compassion to spread through a dark and dis-eased species, and i'm more hopeful than i've ever been before that maybe within a couple generations sh!t like BPD and NPD and all the other behavioral maladies will have no place to hide from the light of understanding and it will be seen in communities and in schools and in homes and taken seriously and worked and ultimately fade away. I think it's possible.

Much love.

[Mutt]

I have very general conversations with her daughter (10) and i try to make it about her paying attention to how she feels and if her needs are being met and to stand up for herself instead of making it about how screwed up her mom is.

You're doing the right thing. It's not about how we feel about ex. It's about the bond that the child has with the mother and they don't need to hear the parent invalidate them. I do the same thing with my kids I validate how they feel.

I just feel like such a failure to not be able to protect them

I feel the same way but aren't we both being a little hard on ourselves?

Your SD sounds very troubled and it must be much harder for you than what I'm going through knowing that she very well could end up not making it through this.

I had thought that she had traits of BPD but I was estranged for over a year with her. A year can make a difference and I don't see BPD, I was really worried about that. Our house was like a pressure cooker because everyone was triggered. She started cutting around the age of 12, but that's not neccesarily just a BPD trait. It's been on the rise since the 90's with adolescents and from what I read up about it is that it's due to the inability to soothe emotions or to feel emotions. She has cuts on both uppers arms and upper thighs, but I heard a young person that is self aware, didn't try to gain sympathy and wasn't blaming everyone else but herself. She felt bad about doing some drugs and drinking but \I didn't judge her. I think it's tied back to her FOO and soothing her own wounds. I told her I was young once too and did some things like that and that she shouldn't be hard on herself for doing it because she's gone through a lot in her life. She felt guilt and she has some goals, she said she wanted to be a cosmetician or a psychologist. She sounded positive, I think it's more my anxieties tied into what could happen because of ex splitting her black again. My ex is Queen and I notice the split comes when you resist her control. She becomes very aggressive and mean.

When i look at the situation with compassion for everyone, myself included, i have to surrender control to the fact that what i was trying to do, (fix and help) was built on a rotten foundation. If i'd gotten my life together and figured out who i was before i started a relationship w my ex (which i had fully intended to do, and said i wasn't going to be in another relationship for at least a year, then immediately latched on to my ex... .ugh) then i wouldn't have even known those kids because someone like my ex wouldn't make the cut and i wouldn't have needed to save her to feel like a man. I look on the good moments I've had with the kids as the counter weight to all the misery i've been in the last 4 months having to let go of them.

I think I'm looking in the wrong area with this. I don't think this is about a false self, FOO or co-dependency. I think this is about a bond that we make with a child as a father. The protector and defender not the  rescuer. It's a part of our code and not a part of our personality. Can you relate to that Xstaticaddict?

I just got back from an awesome dance class, and had all kinds of vital passionate fun and attractive women literally lining up hoping to dance w me. I walked out of there and a fleeting thought ran through my head, that there was no way i could have done something like this with, or while with my ex.

our exes sound the same. Mine hated dancing as well and I love dancing and missed it during our marriage. It's something that I can do again now, it sounds like you had a lot of fun at your dance class!

I'm so grateful for you and for this forum, and for the level of collective consciousness that can happen due to technology in general. It really is the vehicle for compassion to spread through a dark and dis-eased species, and i'm more hopeful than i've ever been before that maybe within a couple generations sh!t like BPD and NPD and all the other behavioral maladies will have no place to hide from the light of understanding and it will be seen in communities and in schools and in homes and taken seriously and worked and ultimately fade away. I think it's possible.

Thanks and I'm grateful for you too. I remember the 70's and 80's and technology and I thank my lucky stars that I didn't have to go through something like this back then. I don't know what the awareness level was like with borderline personality disorder but I am grateful for e-mail and communicating at a pace where your not on the phone and you get triggered. The tone of voice and inflection as well. It makes it easier to detach. People coming together and sharing their experiences, stories and giving each other support is a tremendous tool for coping I believe. There are probably people in this day and age that may go through this without ever knowing that they are dealing with a disorder and they must be going through a lot of suffering. Understanding is deeper than knowledge.

[Xstaticaddict]

When i look at the situation with compassion for everyone, myself included, i have to surrender control to the fact that what i was trying to do, (fix and help) was built on a rotten foundation. If i'd gotten my life together and figured out who i was before i started a relationship w my ex (which i had fully intended to do, and said i wasn't going to be in another relationship for at least a year, then immediately latched on to my ex... .ugh) then i wouldn't have even known those kids because someone like my ex wouldn't make the cut and i wouldn't have needed to save her to feel like a man. I look on the good moments I've had with the kids as the counter weight to all the misery i've been in the last 4 months having to let go of them.

I think I'm looking in the wrong area with this. I don't think this is about a false self, FOO or co-dependency. I think this is about a bond that we make with a child as a father. The protector and defender not the  rescuer. It's a part of our code and not a part of our personality. Can you relate to that Xstaticaddict?

I can relate to this. It's a tough one for me because my "code" was always family first, however, as i uncover how distorted and unhealthy my family was as far as truly giving people respect and unconditional love within it (and not maliciously, just that both parents were very reactionary and insecure about being rejected by each other and by us as kids, very black and white all or nothing thinking), i've had to seriously reconsider what my motivations were and what family first really meant. My code was really tangled up in what I had invested in fixing or helping as a main method of self worth, which is also tied in huge to the judgmental way of doing things. If we didn't judge there would be no need to control and fix and save which was all i got as far as tools. I wonder if there would be a very different reaction if they were my bio kids. I would think so, but before finding this site I would have been stuck way in my "code" and probably parented the same way my dad did. I've absolutely used this period of discovery to level almost everything in my life as far as what i think is true and absolute. It's like a flood has happened in my house and I've decided to tear the whole thing down and start again since the house was rotten and falling apart before the flood anyway. We're still all loving caring beings at our core, and I believe that more than being a father and protector is what guides healthy people. Protector is a role and something that is sometimes beyond what we can understand as far as execution. Ie sometimes letting the kid fall and hurt themselves is the right way to protect in the long run. I really always admired the people in the world that seemed to love and care about everyone in the same way. Not their kids more than their friends, everyone was seen as worthy of care, and respect and gentleness (but not in a weak passive way if that makes sense) Very different from the us against the world insular mentality of my family and most of my partners.

I think ultimately what you and i are doing now is learning how to have boundaries that let us get stronger and let go of tools that don't work. Ie control and attachment.

Maybe you've read it but Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg helped me tremendously in my thinking about cleaning up my judgments and cloudy thinking about who's responsible for the outcome of any interaction. I think replacing the broken tools with tools like mindfulness, meditation, nonviolent communication and others like it, even the dancing is part of a new code of investing in self and dedicating ourselves to connecting to the world in a way that causes less harm to ourselves and those around us. If I can MODEL something like non-violent communication to the kids, or my family even in the face of their projections and reaction, then eventually by BEING a different kind of mirror for them, and sticking with it even when it seems to get really challenging (as it does when people feel their old ways changing and get resistant or feel anxiety) is the best thing I can do to pass on the tools that will help them navigate and rise above the Toxic ones they still have to live with.

I just got back from an awesome dance class, and had all kinds of vital passionate fun and attractive women literally lining up hoping to dance w me. I walked out of there and a fleeting thought ran through my head, that there was no way i could have done something like this with, or while with my ex.

our exes sound the same. Mine hated dancing as well and I love dancing and missed it during our marriage. It's something that I can do again now, it sounds like you had a lot of fun at your dance class!

There are probably people in this day and age that may go through this without ever knowing that they are dealing with a disorder and they must be going through a lot of suffering. Understanding is deeper than knowledge.[/quote]
Well with my ex it was funny. She wanted to do a million things that we agreed would be amazing to do, dancing being one and taking little trips another. Ultimately the thing with dancing, which she would constantly throw in my face that we didn't do, was much like the underlying relationship itself. She didn't really want to do the work that it would take (with me especially) because it would show she wasn't already good at something, plus she didn't want to let me guide her in anything, and dancing is all about leading and following, which i was definitely constantly trying to guide her towards, by sending her links to sites about femininity and learning to be soft and strong. There was no way i was going to waste money on dance lessons or anything else like expensive trips when i knew that all that would happen is that it would be the "her" show and that she wouldn't be able to treat it like a growth opportunity. In retrospect i should have done it anyway and if it sucked and she didn't start letting go of control that it would be one more display of incompatibility. Also in there is the fact that as the relationship went on the co-dependent focus on each other and our constant issues and drama ended up driving both our finances down to barely surviving, so there was no money to do things like that and by that time all these things were looked at as ways to help the relationship rather than to enjoy it for what it was, and what we'd become because of it.

She really wore her incompetence as a badge of honor and used it as a shield at the same time. I got way into yoga when her sister told me about the place she went, but my ex wouldn't go because of a list of excuses but under them all it was insecurity about not being fit, which i kept telling her would only change by working on it. Her solution of course was starving herself. After i formed a pretty strong relationship with one of the instructors she finally came to a couple and did her BPD instant best friend thing with her but would only do a few classes and even then it was all about loudly drawing attention to how she couldn't do it well and making it all about her. Ultimately I came to dread going out with her even though part of me fully embraced the ego part of having what i thought was the most beautiful woman on my arm, it never seemed to feel good, or like it was enough for her.

Really sad.

[Mutt]

I rarely mentioned SD15 on these boards. I had inner conflict for over a year. When I came here, it was about 4 months post break-up and the people that I trust in my family where telling me that you don't have to worry about ex (which is true) and SD anymore (which I don't believe true). That didn't sit right with me with "letting go" of SD.

I think we're talking about different things and I'd like to clarify because I'm making this confusing. Firstly, IMO this has nothing to do with a fractured self or false self. That's something entirely different and it's a part of your personality and this has nothing to do with being a rescuer. Secondly, when I said code I should of been more specific. I mean genetic code on a primitive level as in hunter / gatherer and protector. Protecting your assets which is your family.

I'm really missing the entire point. I read something and got a   in my head  but on the upside this thread made me deal with emotions that I had over the last year and I thought that I felt alone in this. A collaborate effort and your feelings resonate with mine. This is about unconditional love that I have for my step daughter. It's a bond, an attachment. I'm a dad and I'm not cut from the same cloth as my father. I see being a father as a role that nourishes and I like that role. She's a young woman that needs nourishment and it's hard to let go because you feel like your letting her go out to pasture and die. I have always seen her as a daughter and I as a father.

Knowing my ex and her family I  see the entire picture. Her family is dysfunctional. They are narcissistic and I'm not saying it as a personality disorder but as selfishness. My ex is Queen which has narcissistic traits. Her immediate family on her mothers side are ego-centric and don't see the needs of others, they have a need for themselves. I always saw them as having to orbit around each of them individually and I always had a problem with that because I'm the opposite, selflessness. Knowing that, it's painful to realize that I can't help her because her mother puts a wedge between the kids if she is not given attention and her needs aren't fulfilled. If she sees there is a healthy relationship, she alienates both the kids and myself. I got a court order and I simply pick them up at exchanges and drop them off and that's it, so all of that malarkey is done. But my ex is that alienating wedge between SD and I because my exe uses that I'm not her father and she's not my daughter to justify that. That's what I mean by a no-win. If she knows there's an r/s she punishes SD and it is sad, because it's my exes feelings about me and not SD and her narcissistic need. It's also not to say there isn't divorce poison coming from her side in regards to my kids,  but it's not in my control what goes on in her house.

I think it's radically accepting this and establishing a connection with her later on in life. It's causing me anxiety and stress over something that I don't have control over. It's accepting it. The future is the future and it will come on it's own.

I can relate to this. It's a tough one for me because my "code" was always family first, however, as i uncover how distorted and unhealthy my family was as far as truly giving people respect and unconditional love within it (and not maliciously, just that both parents were very reactionary and insecure about being rejected by each other and by us as kids, very black and white all or nothing thinking)

You described my father to a T Xstaticaddict. My father is not borderline but his thinking is black and white, all or nothing. My father is dysfunctional and it's inter-generational. I think he has low self awareness and has that armor, a wall and all of his feelings from his childhood are repressed. He's in his 60's. I had to radically accept him for who he his because I honestly don't see the man having an epiphany now . That same black and white thinking has a very negative impact on a family I believe or I wouldn't be here. His black and white thinking and seeing his adoptive son as all bad because I was having problems with coping with my adoptive mothers death, he invalidates and it led me to a path to a borderline woman and feeling soothed by her idealization, it made me feel validated, and also soothing my core wound. My father will never understand the effect he had on me and I don't want to lead my kids down the same path.

It's like a flood has happened in my house and I've decided to tear the whole thing down and start again since the house was rotten and falling apart before the flood anyway.

YES! I feel the exact same way metaphorically speaking. The floors and foundation of the house are rotten and it's taking a sledgehammer to it and breaking it down and rebuilding the whole thing from scratch.

I've learned a lot since I joined here and it's understanding the inadequate tools we were given and changing that, break the cycle with our families. That's what I have chosen for my children and I use the tools that I have learned here and they are in a better place. Their spirits are better due to the positive nourishment that I give to them with validation and emotional support and teaching them that they have a right to feel the way they feel and not take the feelings on of others and their dysfunctions. I'm  a single father of 3 wonderful children, I'm growing with them.

In the context of "code" I see that as "ego". What I mean is, I was very happy and content and I felt at place with having a purpose or a role as husband, provider and my place in that family unit. When my ex left, I was hurt and I felt out of place and I felt resentment that she took that away from me. I had to let go of my ego to accept it. I have my place now with my kids and we are a family.

I think ultimately what you and i are doing now is learning how to have boundaries that let us get stronger and let go of tools that don't work. Ie control and attachment.

I agree but it feels good to have boundaries now doesn't it? It' something that I felt guilt over before I got here. Worry about others peoples needs and how my needs may hurt their feelings, like I didn't have a right. Attachment and control I think is synonymous with co-dependency and co-dependency is not something that I had acknowledged or embraced before. I realized that my co-dependency is a by-product from my FOO.

Maybe you've read it but Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg helped me tremendously in my thinking about cleaning up my judgments and cloudy thinking about who's responsible for the outcome of any interaction. I think replacing the broken tools with tools like mindfulness, meditation, nonviolent communication and others like it, even the dancing is part of a new code of investing in self and dedicating ourselves to connecting to the world in a way that causes less harm to ourselves and those around us. If I can MODEL something like non-violent communication to the kids, or my family even in the face of their projections and reaction, then eventually by BEING a different kind of mirror for them, and sticking with it even when it seems to get really challenging (as it does when people feel their old ways changing and get resistant or feel anxiety) is the best thing I can do to pass on the tools that will help them navigate and rise above the Toxic ones they still have to live with.

No I have not read the book but you're on target with everything. Keep working at it, I keep telling myself Rome wasn't built in a day but I have peace because I know that I'm doing the right thing. I'm not "walking on eggshells" and denying my needs and having the kids suffer on my time with them. I'm laying the foundation with my kids now, creating an emotional safe zone,  and working on my own issues to reap the benefits and rewards later. You can't change someone else. Change starts with you. Rise above the toxicity because it doesn't belong to you. We're both better men than that Xstaticaddict.

Well with my ex it was funny. She wanted to do a million things that we agreed would be amazing to do, dancing being one and taking little trips another. Ultimately the thing with dancing, which she would constantly throw in my face that we didn't do, was much like the underlying relationship itself. She didn't really want to do the work that it would take (with me especially) because it would show she wasn't already good at something, plus she didn't want to let me guide her in anything, and dancing is all about leading and following, which i was definitely constantly trying to guide her towards, by sending her links to sites about femininity and learning to be soft and strong.

Your ex was throwing up some FOG when you say that she was throwing it in your face. Maybe she didn't like dancing and following your lead because it felt like she wasn't in control? My ex is BPD Queen and if she wasn't in control of something she wasn't happy. I agree when you say insecurities. A lot of the things with my ex are her insecurities, dysfunctions and maladaptive coping skills, that belongs to her not to me.

I think the whole point of this thread is that I worry for SD. A parents worry irregardless of what my family thinks. It's my attachment to her, not my families attachment to her.

[Xstaticaddict]

Your post is triggering so many interesting memories about so many little overlooked aspects of my relationship.

When you mentioned your ex's family being selfish, it made me think of how my ex's family was. I many times described them to my ex as completely self absorbed and how they seemed to all be competing with each other for attention. I always felt completely marginalized during their conversations (more like monologues) When my ex was being evicted for not paying her rent for 3 months just before Christmas, and didn't tell me anything about it, i organized her parents and sister for kind of an intervention to figure out what to do and help her move. I expressed what i thought needed to be done with serious focus on recovery and economic responsibility and the family all agreed and we talked about how important it was to make it a family effort and stay involved, then poof they disappeared as soon as she was moved in. They literally never called, or came by, or expressed any interest in connecting with me in any way, didn't ask or seem to want to see their grand kids. Just so disconnected in my opinion. I think part of why i had as much patience for her as i did was because i felt like she was really hurt that her parents didn't want to be part of her life. I did talk to her parents a couple times trying to figure some stuff out, and from her dad i got some vague stuff about previous therapy and that it's something that happened in the past. From the mom she made it about her and how my ex always had something against her. My ex mentioned many times that she felt her mom was competing with her for attention from her friends, and acted flirty. I recall her mom being part of co-dependent meeting groups, and also being a terrible drinker, which my ex was too. Not that she drank much but when she did WOW was she aggressive. I'm thinking her mom thinking co-dependent was a better victim role, probably didn't clue in or become aware of BPD/HPD which is more likely what she was.

Sorry about your dad, it's hard coming to terms with the fact that your parents will never change. I feel very hopeful with regard to mine though. He's changed a LOT in the last 10 years, mainly due to going very deep into being a Mason, and doing a ton of volunteering. He definitely still does a lot of really self interested things, and is triggered very easily by me (we have a history of going head to head on any issues that come up whereas most others would avoid his bluster), however, a lot of the soothing stuff, and communication stuff i've been learning lately has made it so i can get through the emotional state and look at things WITH him in a way i would have thought unthinkable just a few years ago. What this tells me is it really does require both people being dedicated to self improvement before it can feel like a two sided mutually caring process. Before it would have been all defense, but seeing that we're both working towards being better people it lets us have that place of sureness about ourselves that helps the other person's opinion not hit us so hard. It still matters to us, but it's softer and more loving. He's 66. I went to visit him a couple weeks ago and had some of the first conversations where i saw him as a guy, rather than my dad, and felt that he was seeing it the same way. It was amazing, and as much as he hated my ex it's weird to think that had she not been the mess that she was, i wouldn't have gotten to the place i am now with him.

Having boundaries is very cool. I actually get a little excited now when i get to set them. I'm still nervous about how as i've never been great at diplomacy, but the way i see it it's all broad strokes and i'm going to probably break some eggs making this omelet. The thing i'm finding most interesting is that when i set the boundaries, i really don't care if the person i'm setting them with adheres to them or not, meaning if they aren't willing to respect them i don't mind letting them go, which wouldn't have been the case previously. It just would have meant time to start trying to control them into respecting me. I'm really busy these days, but I'm looking forward to reading a lot more about co-dependence. I'm sure that will be huge as i explore that and the nature of addiction. Just signed up for a workshop with Gabor Mate called Mind-Body approaches to addiction recovery in Nov. It's all tied in to early life trauma and all roads lead to healing the wounded child. This may be off topic, but i started doing something that has helped me attempt this healing. I visualize that I'm hanging out with myself as an early teen, and also with myself as i hope to be in a few years. It's difficult to do this while in the world but when i remember to do that it really helps me feel grounded. Like being the big brother/dad i wish i had growing up, while gaining inspiration from the man that i've already become in a few years. I don't know if this is healthy or not but it feels like some form of self love. I got the idea from a meditation/visualization exercise that i attended with Destin Gerek at burning man last year where he had everyone visualize a place maybe a house or a building or something where our most authentic future self lived. I caught a glimpse of who i could become and personifying it to the point of having internal dialogue with my strongest self, and also my most vulnerable self (teen me) seems to shred the need for the ego armor in the present somehow.

Oh for sure my ex not embracing my lead was about control and insecurity. I read a symptom of the disorder that stated... .will not take direction or guidance for fear of losing their sense of self. I found it constantly frustrating when I tried to make her understand that letting go of conflict didn't mean she was losing anything. I just couldn't make her see that she was stronger than that at her core. Of course knowing that about her didn't help me understand that i could have done the same thing, and not fought, but i was the guy, i had to be dominant... .hah. I'm so excited to see what my next relationship is like when it finally happens. Such a different outlook on things now.

[Mutt]

I had come across "narcissistic family" last year. I see that in my ex in-laws Xstaticaddict

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_family

MIL = narcissism

SIL = narcissism

FIL = not narcissitic

ex wife = uBPD Queen / Witch

[Blimblam]

ok I get it now I think,

here is my understanding of it... .it is like the yinyang simble.

Yang-

the false "prideful" self is who we like to think of ourselves as in relation to society.  A proxy detached from vulnerability, It relies on consumption to inflate itself as a construct.  The false self seeks out cultural Icons and trends and Identifies itself as those things with no authentic connection. The connection to the true self is that it relies on the true self for fuel and as a way to present the true selfs creative ideas to society without being hurt.

yin-

The true "vulnerable" self is our identity in relation to our base emotions and Energy storage and cultivation. Our ability to tap into the universal energy and cultivate it through authentic creativity. Our true self is fragmented, parts of it being trapped in our fears.

yinyang spots connection-

The false selfs connection to the true self is that it relies on the true self for fuel and as a way to present the true selfs creative ideas to society without being vulnerable. The true self filters incoming energy for storage through the false self as a way of protection and attempts to minimize criticisms.

The movie the matrix uses the concept of "the construct" which I think is a great way to get an idea of what the false self is. Below is a link in the construct scene in the matrix.  The scene Is great and it explains why the borderline fuels us to inflate our false self to turn us into a battery.  The other link is where morpheous explains "what is the matrix"  another good analogy of the "false self" thegirl in the red dress another good analogy of the borderline, while the agent is the part of ourself that destroys the "real self" while being distracted by the women in the red dress.  I think it is also a good way of understanding why the BPD feels no responsibility for our suffering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGZiLMGdCE0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqxwtEdxOCw

[Mutt]

ok I get it now I think,

here is my understanding of it... .

the false self is who we like to think of ourselves as in relation to society.  A proxy detached from vulnerability, It relies on consumption to inflate itself as a construct.  The false self seeks out cultural Icons and trends and Identifies itself as those things with no authentic connection.

The true vulnerable self is our identity in relation to our base emotions and Energy storage and cultivation. Our ability to tap into the universal energy and cultivate it through authentic creativity. Our true self is fragmented, parts of it being trapped in our fears.

The movie the matrix uses the concept of "the construct" which I think is a great way to get an idea of what the false self is. Below is a link in the construct scene in the matrix.  The scene Is great and it explains why the borderline fuels us to inflate our false self to turn us into a battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGZiLMGdCE0

I think I took the red pill when I created this thread  

True self and false self are concepts introduced into psychoanalysis in 1960 by D. W. Winnicott.[1] Winnicott used "True Self" to describe a sense of self based on spontaneous authentic experience, and a feeling of being alive, having a "real self".[2]"False Self" by contrast Winnicott saw as a defensive facade[3] - one which in extreme cases could leave its holders lacking spontaneity and feeling dead and empty, behind a mere appearance of being real.[4]

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_self_and_false_s

Xstaticaddict is correct and it echo's 2010, let go of the false self and love your inner child. I validate and show love to that inner child