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Children-recovering from the mess
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Topic: Children-recovering from the mess (Read 1083 times)
flowerpath
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Children-recovering from the mess
«
on:
July 15, 2014, 05:38:34 PM »
My husband and I have two sons, one 17 and one 23, both of whom are students and live at home. We have never been physically abused, but my younger son and I have been verbally and emotionally abused and all of us have witnessed my husband's countless episodes of screaming, throwing, and breaking things.
I am a relatively strong and steady person with an optimistic outlook and chose to stay in this relationship after hearing on a marriage counseling program on the radio that if you are not being physically abused, you should do what you can to make things work and avoid divorce so that your kids can grow up in a home with an intact family. I've tried to set a good example for my sons (wish I had known more about better ways to respond to the rage) and thought I was doing the right thing by staying, though there were times that I really wanted to leave. The last few episodes have "come out of nowhere", which made me look into the possibility of it being bipolar disorder. Now after only recently realizing that it is very likely that my husband has undiagnosed borderline personality organization difficulties, and reading some of these posts, I feel very guilty about the fact that I did not know that this is likely a mental illness. I am concerned about the lasting effects all of this will have on our sons. Either way, divorce or stay, there would have been negative consequences.
I have just found this site and am reading
Stop Walking on Eggshells
. When I finish reading it, I am going to talk with my sons about it. Therapy is the next step. I am not worried about myself. I would just like to know whether anyone can share some kind of positive story of how their children survived the fallout and are doing OK.
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takingandsending
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #1 on:
July 15, 2014, 05:53:56 PM »
Quote from: flowerpath on July 15, 2014, 05:38:34 PM
Either way, divorce or stay, there would have been negative consequences.
Hi Flowerpath. I, too, have two sons, 9 and 3, and am living with uBPDw for 18 years. I think you are right on the money with your statement. If you had left, you may have had that much less interaction with your children when they were younger, that much less chance to mitigate that abuse. At least, that is where I am at in my thinking right now. Healing yourself and assisting your sons to heal is a good focus to maintain. I am learning and trying to apply tools for maintaining a relationship with my wife and give my sons the tools that they need to differentiate between their feelings and actions and her behaviors. I hope that you will share your insights, as I feel I have a lot to learn from people who have gone through this with children. I mostly worry about their safety and health.
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maxsterling
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #2 on:
July 15, 2014, 07:14:48 PM »
There is a message board on this site for people who have borderline parents. You can ask there what their experiences were.
I have two experiences with this situation. Well, 2.5. My BPD fiancé's mother was diagnosed BPD. Her parents were divorced, and she was mostly with her mother (this was the 1980s, when it was much more likely for kids to be in custody of their mother after divorce. her mother's BPD and abuse obviously had a HUGE effect on her, and probably contributed significantly to her own BPD, drug abuse, and mental health issues.
I also had a previous girlfriend who pretty much fits the description for both NPD or BPD. I say NPD because she seemed more full of herself and I did not witness the internal shame or self loathing that I do with my BPD fiancé. She had a son, 11 years old when I was dating her, and while he was a great kid, he was obviously affected by her behavior. He was very independent, became her caretaker at times, and had more of a "friend" than a "mother". And yes, she verbally and physically abused him. I witnessed it in an eerie way, and witnessed his coping mechanisms. Not sure how he will turn out as an adult, but I remember he really latched on to me as a positive influence. I think in the long run, he will be fine.
And then there is my own mother. She doesn't fit enough criteria for me to think she is BPD, but she does have many BPD behaviors. Super emotional, raging, upset for seemingly no reason. Interestingly, she never really got upset at myself or my siblings, her focus was always on my dad. Every few months she would yell at him over something that normally would be considered a good thing - such being mad at him for doing the dishes (yes, I said DOING the dishes!). Anyway, her yelling at my dad for no reason that I could understand certainly had an effect on me and my siblings. My brother wound up with a BPD wife. My sister is in an abusive marriage, and now I am engaged to a pwBPD. I think my mom's behavior towards my dad, and my dad inadequacy in dealing with it or at least being open to us about it probably contributed to myself and my siblings winding up with the partners we have.
I'd suggest being real open and honest with your kids about what goes on, why you have made the decisions you have, encourage them to focus on themselves, and I would also suggest therapy for them. My biggest issue and I think the issue my ex's son had was just confusion as to what and why and no example that certain things weren't normal or weren't healthy.
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flowerpath
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #3 on:
July 15, 2014, 09:00:53 PM »
Thank you both for your comments and advice. I didn't see that other board until you mentioned it and will check to see what additional help I can find there. In retrospect, right from the beginning, I would have talked with my sons more about what had happened, their feelings about it, and healthy ways to respond it. I think a lot of the times, our heads were spinning at the sight and sound of his yelling and smashing and throwing things and it felt (and still feels) beyond words. But one boundary is for sure: physical abuse. If it ever occurs, there will be no second chances.
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bpbreakout
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #4 on:
July 16, 2014, 07:04:14 PM »
Thanks for your post Flowerpath. I’m a bit behind you having been married to BPDw for 18 years with d15 and s13. You do see a few posts on the effect of BPD on children and there a lots of success stories and lots of people who are seriously concerned about BPD is affecting their children. It would be great if this subject had it’s own board as it’s something I think about a lot.
BPDw was diagnosed with bp2 about 8 years ago and re-diagnosed with BPD/PTSD/ADHD by a new psychiatrist about 9 months ago. The new diagnosis makes a lot more sense to me as it accounts for FOO issues (of which there are many) and not just chemical issues.
The countless episodes of screaming etc and favouring one child over another are very familiar and like you I would describe myself as strong and optimistic and like you I have wanted to bring our children up in an intact family & yes of course whatever you do, there are negative consequences.
The big downside of the bipolar diagnosis was that I was encouraged into thinking BPDw couldn’t help her behaviour and made a lot of excuses for her (including being violent at one stage a few years ago). Stop Walking on Eggshells is a great book and I think encourages us as partners to look after ourselves and avoid getting sucked into the negative BPD mindset. The BPD diagnosis has been great for me. The first thing I did was see a lawyer and work through a potential escape plan. I obviously never used it but it helped me see that if we did separate it wouldn’t be the end of the world for me. Had we separated say 5 years ago I think it would have been 5 more years with extra exposure to BPDw’s warped thinking and worth thinking about as I have heard of situations where children have been turned against parents by pwBPD.
When BPDw was first diagnosed as bipolar we took the children to a family therapist to discuss the issue so they have always had a theme in their lives saying that Mum wasn’t well which means that there has been a message from outside saying that it’s not all their fault. Had the diagnosis been BPD I don’t think this would have ever happened.
I have a good relationship with D15 though I find her disorganisation difficult. D15 and BPDw have always had a lot of conflict and I have had d15 in therapy for a number of years to deal with the “scapegoating” at home. She is doing very well at school but currently being assessed for inattentive ADHD re disorganisation. Putting her in therapy was the best thing I did as it has given her an outlet for conflict at home and also a “bridge” that she may need to use when she gets older. BPDw has been very unsupportive on this front and obviously feels threatened. A psych I know sees a lot of people in their 20’s trying to make sense of their FOO’s (quite successfully by the sound of it) & I hope my daughter feels comfortable doing the same if she needs to.
S13 has just started high school and also doing well, he has a good relationship with his Mum though her favouritism and emotional reliance on him are clearly not healthy. I have a good relationship with him. I often tell him how I think his sister is unfairly treated which he seems acknowledge and o respond to though there are times when he deliberately pushes his sister’s boundaries in the same way that BPDw does. He has started seeing “girlfriends” ie meets girls in the local shopping centre on weekends and goes to a movie. This is earlier than I would have expected and there is part of me that wonders if it’s a consequence of our family set up which may evolve in the future in some way.
A constant problem in our household is BPDw having tantrums and becoming abusive towards d15 in particular. D15 is now answering back big time (still only occasionally the initiator). BPDw is unwilling or unable to take any responsibility for her part initiating these episodes and can only focus on the answering back. BPDw also seems in denial about d15’s possible ADHD. I spent many years trying to tread the line between supporting BPDw’s parenting and not supporting her abusive behaviour & TBH it ended up totally stressing me out so I’ve told BPDw I’m not interested in supporting her any more if there is abuse and more imortantly stopped doing it... BPDw still tries to make me responsible for their conflict even if it takes place when I’m not in the house. It’s totally frustrating hearing BPDw (who is often very rude and overbearing) complaining about D15 being the same, classic projection.
Like you I often feel guilty, maybe I should have gone for a separation with full custody a few years ago on grounds that BPDw was not able to look after children. However the reality is that it would never have been better than 50/50 and I suspect a very difficult separation process.
Our relationship is in a state of flux and has been so for around 6 months as since the BPD diagnosis I have been changing a number of things about how I live my own life and look after myself. The tools on this site have been fantastic and the way I have been managing conflict is vastly improved though not yet perfect. I’m not sure if we will be together or not by the time the children have got through high school but if not I will be ok.
I find writing is good as it makes you to think things through. Writing this post has been great to put my own situation in perspective and I post on a daily gratitude journal which helps me re-inforce the positive things in my life. Also I’m doing more sport which is good for meeting people. If you have been living with someone like this for so many years it’s really good to do a few things for yourself. If your children see you do that that can only be good.
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george2
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #5 on:
July 16, 2014, 10:45:28 PM »
Thanks Flowerpath for the post. It is amazing that the sole reason I logged into the forum tonight (after quite a lengthy absence), was that I am worried about my children and the manner that my DBPDw's behavior, emotional responses, and chaotic life is having on my children (6 and 2)... .the problem I am facing is that for the past 6 years, my eldest child has greatly depended on my structure and consistent nature. Since my youngest has been born, much of that went out the window. My wife has become increasingly jealous of my relationship with our eldest, and constantly throws her tantrums about how she is not needed, that I might as well be the mother too, and that my child only loves me and not her... .my child looks to me sometimes in confusion and we have to go into repair mode. I know I still have so much to learn and understand about my wife's diagnosis, and I am weary most of the time of the rollercoaster ride, but what is keeping me up at night and tearing my apart, is how my darlings are being affected. I applaud you for your proactive nature, and I only wish I were stronger at times. Thanks for your post
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flowerpath
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #6 on:
July 17, 2014, 01:32:53 AM »
Thank you, bpbreakout and george2. Yes, the support and the articles on this site are a tremendous help. Never before did I know that so many other people were experiencing the same thing.
I actually experienced my husband trying to turn my sons against me when they were younger. They were generally well-behaved kids, but when I did correct their behavior, he immediately jumped in and corrected me or told them, “It’s OK.” One of his characteristics is to cleverly use words to paint a picture in someone’s mind the way he wants them to see things in order to validate himself and draw people to his side, but it’s a picture that is not true. I heard him say untrue things about my thoughts, and make comments that insinuated that I was not capable of taking care of them. (Then at other times, he would make self-deprecating comments about how he was not needed.) It is hard to know how to keep an even keel for your kids when they are getting mixed messages. Again, I just wish I had known more about this disorder when they were little, and I’m so glad that those of you whose children are younger than mine have the resources now that I did not have back then.
As they got older, he shifted to making unkind comments to them. S23 has a mild-mannered personality, so my husband’s comments toward him are not so harsh, but they are negative, unexpected, and uncalled for. S17’s temperament is different (diagnosed with ADHD), and he and my husband have some conflicts. S17 is more assertive and my husband gets angry if someone stands up for themselves or voices their opinion if it is different from his. He projects negative thoughts on both of them. For example, he accuses them of making the same bad choices he made when he was younger, but they are not even involved in those kinds of things. My husband’s career life has not been as successful as he envisioned, and he verbalizes a negative future for our younger son – both to me and the younger son. He seems to not care how discouraging something like that is and when I tell him the positive things that are actually occurring, he takes offense. So far, I have found ways to counteract my husband’s negative comments by complimenting their positive traits in the context of conversation based on the situation, commenting on the good choices they have made, and encouraging them about school, their future careers, and their lives. I just hope it makes a difference and that the positive comments will outweigh the negative ones. As I learn better ways to respond to a pwBPD, I will share those tools with them. Therapy will help too.
From my own experience as a child, I can say that something positive can come from one parent balancing the other parent’s extremes. My mom was not abusive, but she was hot-tempered at times. She’s very matter-of-fact, not one to be complimentary of people. My dad, on the other hand, was calmer, more consistent, and more encouraging. I love them both dearly and have always gotten along well with both of them, but I will always be thankful for the way my father modeled that in my life. He is the one who had the most influence on my behavior.
This perspective for how to live with a pwBPD is all new to me and I have a lot to learn. One absolutely bizarre episode that occurred about 9 months ago was a turning point for me, and in my mind I was finished with this relationship. I had this dream of a happy home that is hard to let go of.
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takingandsending
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #7 on:
July 17, 2014, 09:59:45 AM »
george2 and flowerpath,
Your posts have helped me feel a bit better about my eldest S9. He is a bright and energetic kid who has been fairly routinely crushed by my uBPDw. I have been harboring a lot of worry that he displays several BPD traits himself - particularly that he is so well behaved and cooperative outside the house but explodes in his interpersonal family relations. I am seeking out a child T for him, but after reading your experiences, I see how my wife has fought him precisely because he fights back, and she blames him for taking me away from her. My S3 care takes his mom, so he gets less of her rage and verbal abuse (although that path worries me for entirely different reasons). I can't imagine how much confusion and anguish this causes for S9. I am his safe harbor, and I take a lot of heat from wife for giving him what I don't give to her. It's not entirely invalid. I love him in a way that I will never love her because he's my child. It is invalid to think that I should love her in the same way. Sometimes, just thinking through the guilt and blame, it sort of clarifies, and I can reassess my actions and see that I really am a good person, good father, and even a good husband. It's so easy to get lost in our SO's disorganized thinking and begin to believe it. My heart goes out to you both on your journey. Thank you for sharing your stories.
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george2
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #8 on:
July 18, 2014, 12:42:39 AM »
Thanks flowerpath and taking and sending... .the comments were helpful and I appreciate the support. It still stuns me at times how jealous my wife is of my relationship with our daughter. Yes, I have assumed a role these past years that is incredibly nurturing, protective, and damage controlling what my wife inflicts on our children. I don't think I will ever forgive her for the time, while I was holding daughter (not even 2 at the time) and she started raging on me, I tried to walk out of the room and my little one started patting me on the back in love... .I could not imagine what went through her mind; and even more recently when wife grabbed my cell phone out of my hand and smashed it on the ground in front of toddler son, who immediately started to pick it up... .I thought my God, is it really worth staying with her and allowing the children to see this. Again, the answer for me is, yes, because, any divorce will result in joint custody at a minimum, and I refuse to give up time with them, and am terrified of what they will have to emotionally endure without me around. She even recently had the gall to accuse my relationship with daughter as "unnatural and weird", that I wish I had female parts so that we could really get rid of her since none of us (mind you that two of the "us" are tiny children) never need her. It is just comforting (but sad) to hear there are others who experience this. Best to all of you.
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takingandsending
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #9 on:
July 20, 2014, 04:05:23 PM »
george2,
I think one of the hardest things for me is letting go of all the things I have had to witness. I used to write just to get out my emotions from the hard things I have experienced with my uBPDw and her interactions with my S9. At times, I'd wonder, who am I writing this for? For my son, so that he can have validation of how crummy he was treated as a kid? I can't imagine him wanting to read it. I used to harbor the thought of sharing it with my wife when she returned to sanity after childbirth, but now I see what a self delusion that was. I had always thought that if I could just show her how much I endured, she would have a light bulb come on and, I don't know, maybe drop to her knees and beg me and my S9 for forgiveness. Clearly, I am showing my own level of emotional maturity in our relationship.
Now, seeing so many people with the same type of story as my own, and reading the information on this site, I can see how I have just been hiding from my own hurts, my own responsibility, my own values. And, as unfair as she has been to our children, I have been almost as unfair by not protecting them when I gave into her demands when I knew they were wrong just because I have been blamed so often and so irrationally that I lost sight of what was right.
For now, I want to see what I have been unwilling to see, to experience what I have not wanted to experience so that I can learn to let go of what I have been hanging on to. I owe my kids that. I don't know why my wife and others with BPD turn the direction they turn when others facing similar difficult experiences in childhood make it through. I love her, and I see how greatly she suffers. But I am growing stronger, and I will do what I have to give my children a source of loving kindness and a model for healthy communication and interaction even under duress.
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AnnieSurvivor
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #10 on:
July 20, 2014, 08:39:35 PM »
Hello,
I just happened to come across this subject title and thought I would share.
I am an adult child of a uBPD mother. I am now 43 years old, and I am happy to say doing pretty well. I live 1000 miles away (probably not far enough), and have low contact with my mother, but it is functional. It helps somewhat that she is high-functioning and that I have accepted she is not going to be the parent that I needed or wanted. Luckily my dad, who divorced her when I was 9, stuck around and is a normal parent and I think that is what saved me. Please stick around for your kids.
It helps that I do not seem to be mentally ill (says me!), I have always been independent and could handle responsibility from an early age. I am still a leader. I also have some native smarts and that really helps. I think I was given my gifts for a reason.
That said, back in the 1980s mothers got full custody unless they were murderers or raging lunatics. My mother is more of the "waif" passive variety of BPD most of the time, a total victim, but boy she could certainly rage when she was not happy. I was told my whole life what a crappy kid I was every time I did not support her or do as she wanted. And what kid can do that? None of course.
No one knew what BPD was then, people were just termed difficult. I had a little exposure to therapy due to the divorce and let the therapist know my mom constantly put down my dad in front of me. Surprise, I didn't get to go to therapy much anymore. I since have done so plenty as an adult and that is where I learned about BPD. It would have been so nice to have others, including my dad, see more of what I went through at home but I was warned about sharing what went on at home (typical abuser pattern) and so I didn't, I still really don't mention her to this day except to trusted friends. So, getting the kids HELP and letting them know about the illness in age-appropriate ways should be so incredibly helpful as they age. And not shutting them down when they tell the truth, as hard as it might be to hear. It would have been good to know earlier it really wasn't all my responsibility to try and keep her happy.
I am happy to say that I did not grow up to be an addict or fall apart due to my mom's BPD. I hold responsible steady jobs, have money in the bank, have friends and enjoy many activities. I am divorced, but due to the fact my husband came out as gay! We are still good friends. I am not eager to jump back into the marriage game and am happy to mostly be alone and at peace. (Some would say this is a problem, people think there is something wrong with you if you do not want to couple up). I do tend to be very guarded and private until I know someone well, I know this is due to my BPD mother. I got used to constant criticism and judgment for everything so now I hold back with everyone and test the waters until I feel it is safe. If my boundaries are even violated slightly, there are no second chances with new people. My therapist says this reaction is normal for us kids, or the opposite - where we hang out with BPDs, I guess to try and resolve issues. No thanks!
I have no kids and I am good with this. I am not a big kid person, I like them in very small doses. I guess because I deal with a big unstable kid, my mom, and that is enough. I used to be afraid that I would turn out like my mom and treat my kids like she did me. Now I realize that would not have happened. But, I am still glad I didn't have a kid to risk passing this horrible gene onward. My small part in helping humanity I guess!
Thanks for reading, and know there is much hope for your children. Please put them and yourselves first!
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takingandsending
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #11 on:
July 21, 2014, 09:26:08 PM »
Dear AnnieSurvivor,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. It certainly gives me some hope that I am doing the right thing by staying in this RS for now for my kids. It's hard not to worry when S9 has a complete and total meltdown because his rubber band loom bracelet didn't come off the loom right, and I ruined the whole thing, and he's going to break it and I will have to buy him another one, etc. When I see him raging uncontrollably, I understand that all children (myself included) get upset out of proportion, but I wonder how much of it is due to his relationship with his mom. I just hung in there with him until it spent out, let him take apart his work on the loom instead of trying to fix it, and then did SET. Let him know that I could see how frustrated he is, the he matters and I care about him and then said how it's not easy to think straight when we are upset and a little space is needed to feel better. To his credit, he climbs down a lot quicker than his mom. I am going to call the children T again tomorrow. She hasn't called me back. I need to get him started to get some tools for feeling his emotions but not acting them out on others.
I hope that you have peace and happiness in your life. Sounds as if you are very deserving of it.
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bpbreakout
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
«
Reply #12 on:
July 21, 2014, 10:23:12 PM »
Thanks for your post Annie, it's really appreciated and good to hear from someone who's been through all this as a kid that it's worth sticking around as a parent. It's great to hear things turned out for you and I hope your Dad found some peace after the divorce.
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flowerpath
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Re: Children-recovering from the mess
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Reply #13 on:
July 21, 2014, 11:14:56 PM »
Thank you, AnnieSurvivor. In addition to your words of hope, you have an attitude of cheerfulness in spite of the circumstances in which you lived. This is the positive kind of thing that I want to communicate to my children, to let them know that they do have a choice in how they will respond to what has not been so great in our home.
Talkingandsending, it is very hard to forget things seen and heard. They seem to be welded into me. Maybe even blow torched. In terms of writing, a forum like this is very helpful for me because of the good suggestions. I’m pretty sure I don’t want anyone here at home now or in years to come to read all I have to say about all of this behavior and how I feel written in my own hand (imagine somebody finding that in an attic) – that’s just me, but I did buy a journal yesterday to jot down notes of helpful advice that I read on this board so I can have it as a reference or reminder. It's getting hard for me to keep up with where I read what!
You said:
Quote from: takingandsending on July 20, 2014, 04:05:23 PM
But I am growing stronger, and I will do what I have to give my children a source of loving kindness and a model for healthy communication and interaction even under duress.
I totally get it. Great advice on doing that right here:
Quote from: waverider on July 18, 2014, 03:36:09 AM
When deciding what to do and what not to do you have think it out in advance.
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=> Romantic Relationship | Detaching and Learning after a Failed Relationship
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Children, Parents, or Relatives with BPD
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=> Son, Daughter or Son/Daughter In-law with BPD
=> Parent, Sibling, or In-law Suffering from BPD
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Community Built Knowledge Base
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=> Library: Psychology questions and answers
=> Library: Tools and skills workshops
=> Library: Book Club, previews and discussions
=> Library: Video, audio, and pdfs
=> Library: Content to critique for possible feature articles
=> Library: BPDFamily research surveys
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We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
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