What Keeps Me Stuck

[Turkish]

In short: the breakdown of her r/s with my replacement.

History: she ended us last August. I found out she was cheating two weeks later. We attended one joint session of couples' counseling a couple of weeks later. She abandoned it after 2 individual session (she doesn't trust men, was what he got out of it). I stayed with it up until last month. I didn't beg, but I said we could work it out somehow. I found out she and her young narcissist were still in contact, and I ended it the first week of October, though that was but a formality. It was over before it began. The abandonment script was running the whole time. Like many here, I thought I could change it. Silly me.

She finally moved out in early Feb, after 4 moths of all but throwing her r/s in my face. So when did our r/s end? I'll call it when she moved out on my side. There wasn't hope of saving it, but we were still living together, with LC initiated by me to lessen conflict. She's still with my replacement.

I was doing better after a while. Pick ups of the kids were at her mom's house. I avoided seeing her fir 5 weeks. I thought I could stretch it into 7. Then D2 fell and broke her collarbone (thankfully under her mom's care, or I'd never hear the end of it. That happened on her Friday. Her weekend. She reached out for help (though only calling me on the way back from emergency, which made me mad). I went to her new apartment for the first time, having rebuffed several previous invites, as if I wanted her new great life thrown in my face.

Last Sunday, she had a BPD incident (inappropriate anger) with S4. I try to talk to her as little as possible, but Monday night, she called to ask to talk to me about the weekend. I called her back. Late in the conversation she admitted to me the incident. I felt like telling her to talk to Narc Boy (he's young enough to be my son), but I was wisemind, and talked her through it (plus, she was volunteering info I wouldn't to her). Stuff for the parenting board, I won't go into it. It was a reminder, however, that she is still the same person.

Feeling FOG, perhaps, I invited her to the park with us last Saturday, my weekend. It was ok. The kids were happy. She tried to draw me out, "so how are you doing?" I deflected.

This week, I am watching the kids during the days. Based on the parenting schedule, I have to pick up and drop them off at her place a few times. Despite her telling me two weeks ago, "I know you don't want me coming over to the house, but are you sure you don't want me to pick them up?" After she leaving a whole bunch if her stuff here, despite having months to prepare, no. I didn't say that. Maybe I need to flat out say it.

I dropped them off today, playing with them in a park across from her complex until she got there. She was handling D2. She asked me a question, I think, but I was looking the other way, watching S4. She asked me, all concerned, "is something wrong?" I responded no, but I was lying. I've been in a constant, low grade cycling depression. She did pick up on something, I am sure.  I feel like I've not accepted my new reality, though she accepted hers starting almost a year ago. It:s the typical lack of deep empathy, "I've moved on, why haven't you?" I know she still cares for me, has "a love" for me as she so cruelly put it back in November, but I'm not about to show vulerability to her.

So I'm left with me. Despite how normal she seems, I know it can turn on a dime. She reached out and admitted to me on the phone call, "you know how I can go into my depression." Waif.

The good thing is that she takes the kids out of state for a vacation next week. After that, back to LC. It's the only way I can keep myself stable.

They say NC or LC is a tool, but not the ultimate tool to heal. I confess that I'm not sure where that lies yet. I feel like I'm waiting for her r/s to break down. To thriw it in her face? To validate my archair diagnosis? To add something else into the mix, my mom admitted to me two weeks ago that 20 years ago, her T all but diagnosed her with BPD. Nothing on record, but the T gave her a book on BPD. A back handed dX, oh brother... .

So what do I do now in middle age, now that the final pieces of the puzzle click into place? I honestly don't know. My Rx keeps gushing about what a great father I am (while subtly slammng me as a failure as a romantic partner... .I blocked her back in November on FB, but I know it still goes on).

I wish I had a pill to make it all better; I'd share it with the world. Time slowly makes it better, but while she is still with my replacement, I still feel stuck.

[Blimblam]

Turkish. Your a good writer.  I can not even stand to be around my ex it triggers me too much.  What I can relate to my last few experiences around my ex is putting up a kind of defense and hiding parts I myself and to do this I had to utilize my own narcissism and false self.  I was afraid to show vulnerability.  I've realized this may have done me more harm than good.  I think if we broke down and at least I showed my ex how bad she hurt me she would of had some mercy on me.  She was clearly trying to break me and I would be damned if I showed her how bad she hurt me but that ended up driving deeper into the abyss. 

Sure if she sees she will probably say something mean because he feels shame but she just might show her own despair through te facade and there be somethng real

[LettingGo14]

They say NC or LC is a tool, but not the ultimate tool to heal. I confess that I'm not sure where that lies yet. I feel like I'm waiting for her r/s to break down. To thriw it in her face? To validate my archair diagnosis? To add something else into the mix, my mom admitted to me two weeks ago that 20 years ago, her T all but diagnosed her with BPD. Nothing on record, but the T gave her a book on BPD. A back handed dX, oh brother... .

So what do I do now in middle age, now that the final pieces of the puzzle click into place? I honestly don't know. My Rx keeps gushing about what a great father I am (while subtly slammng me as a failure as a romantic partner... .I blocked her back in November on FB, but I know it still goes on).

I wish I had a pill to make it all better; I'd share it with the world. Time slowly makes it better, but while she is still with my replacement, I still feel stuck.

Turkish --

I am with you on this journey.

We start where we find ourselves, and we find the answers within.   You deserve better than being cheated on, and you've done so much work -- for yourself and your kids -- that you will find the answers regardless of what happens with your ex and her r/s.  

I have wrestled with many of the same questions -- so many of us have felt "stuck" more than once, at various points on the path.  Just some thoughts I've entertained:

(1) "Replacement" is such a cruel word for us to use on ourselves.   I've used it on myself, so I know. If we use replacement as a term, we want -- even need -- the new relationship to fail, as if failure proves we are not defective in some way.  Rest assured, you are affirmed on your own merits.  We just need to go through the abandonment process [which is excruciating] to generate our own self-affirmation.

(2) What is the ultimate tool to heal?   It's probably a toolbox of assorted things, perhaps different for each person.   One thing I have started to focus on is the fact that I encoded emotional memories about my ex-girlfriend in moments of high emotion, both good and bad.   Was it a trauma bond?  Are we left with PTSD?   Does it operate like an addiction?   Maybe.   I have used cognitive behavioral therapy techniques for working with thoughts and meditation for working with emotions.   And, like you, I see my story echoed over and over again on these boards.   It helps me take what happened less personally -- we are not alone.

(3) With regard to your mom, it's another piece of information for you to investigate for yourself.  We can't change our pasts, as we know.  We just work with what we have in the present.  "Remember, repeat, work through" is the old Freud mantra -- but perhaps, it's "recognize, allow, and investigate" now.  

"Stuck" is not fun.  And I empathize deeply with you.   But, here we are -- putting one foot in front of another -- and going THROUGH rather than around.

[Turkish]

BB, she kind of accused me of this in the end, that I didn't show enough vulerability. As best as I can remember, I said, "How can I show it? I take care of the kids, you [she denied this] , your family by proxy, my mom... .who can possibly take care of me?"

The Lonely Child dynamic, I know. I needed to be vulnerable, to fulfill her rescuer traits, while also being her emotional parent.

[Blimblam]

BB, she kind of accused me of this in the end, that I didn't show enough vulerability. As best as I can remember, I said, "How can I show it? I take care of the kids, you [she denied this] , your family by proxy, my mom... .who can possibly take care of me?"

The Lonely Child dynamic, I know. I needed to be vulnerable, to fulfill her rescuer traits, while also being her emotional parent.

It makes me think about all the times we had to be strong for our exs and hid our vulnerablity to play that role for them and it reinforced our narcissism and makes those memories seem better than they were because our narcissism was activated and surpressing our own vulnerability like we were conditioned to do in childhood and when the traumas bond is formed when we look back we don't see things  how we once did.

I think the trauma bond congeals all the moments of our narcissism filling in the gaps of reality forming the fantasy into the coherent reality. Then later in it is us that are triggered by their by their sneaky or devaluing behavior it doesnt fit in with our fantasy and we show our pain but this is inconsistent with their role for us in the fantasy so they condition us to hide our vulnerability.  Then we surpress how much they have hurt us to uphold our own narcissistic fantasy and when we so this it drives that very present pain right down into our surpressed hidden traumas.

[Turkish]

BB, she kind of accused me of this in the end, that I didn't show enough vulerability. As best as I can remember, I said, "How can I show it? I take care of the kids, you [she denied this] , your family by proxy, my mom... .who can possibly take care of me?"

The Lonely Child dynamic, I know. I needed to be vulnerable, to fulfill her rescuer traits, while also being her emotional parent.

It makes me think about all the times we had to be strong for our exs and hid our vulnerablity to play that role for them and it reinforced our narcissism and makes those memories seem better than they were because our narcissism was activated and surpressing our own vulnerability like we were conditioned to do in childhood and boom trauma bond.

In Understanding The Borderline Mother, Lawson wrote:

Shutting down, closing up, and "going in" are instinctual, life saving responses to life threatening conditions.

My Ex said she reminded me about her dad. Well, she reminded me about my mom, emotionally.

[Blimblam]

I just realized that I can't see my ex because i will be hurt by her because I will be afraid to show my vulnerablility but this requires me to activate my false self and it reinforces my narcissism that patches in all the moments in the relationship where I had to be strong for her. But me being strong for her was a part of the fantasy those moments were not that great they were actually terrible moments.

And by hiding our vulnerability to not show my ex how hurt I really am I create more trauma for myself and it keeps me stuck and I have to rely on my narcissism to convince myself I am being strong in those moments around my ex.

[Blimblam]

Reading what you wrote ha me reflect and i centered on feeling my gut and them I had a breakthrough.  When I have them they come out kind of fragmented when I try to write them but hopefully you can read between my lines and see what I'm trying to say.

[seeking balance]

Turkish,

I really do wish I could give you that magic pill.   I can remember how hard it is to be logically detached, have the BPD so easily versed it was natural to explain, yet feel so lost, sad and not quite sure what or how to do next.

Time, sitting and processing our emotions, taking baby steps at finding ourselves again and time.  We all have a different level of healing to do and sometimes it is 3 steps forward and 4 steps back then 3 quick ones forward again.

The movie Best Exotic Merigold Hotel has some great quotes.  One I particularly like, "we get up every day and we do our best.  Nothing else matters".

There is a point where analyzing becomes our own coping mechanism and we must lean into the pain and sort of fall apart to get unstuck and move to the other side.  It is scary and hard and hurts... .but it gets us unstuck.   Thinking of a tire stuck in mud, sometimes it must be rocked back and forth before it is unstuck... .our emotions can be like that at times... .but with discipline, persistence and enough time, we get unstuck.  And yeah, sometimes we call in reinforcements to help.

I remember people telling me how graceful and well I handled things while in them... .it didn't take away my loss or sadness.  Looking back, I can see those actions did help me rebuild me, a person who has much higher expectations and self worth.

You can be a good dad and still feel lost and afraid... .the crisis of the divorce has subsided and living this life you have now is new and full of uncertainty.  Learning to be comfortable in this is going to take time and mindfulness.

My hardest emotional lost time was after the divorce was final and I had a time of quiet... .it was then that I let go totally, because I had to rebuild a life that I had no idea what I wanted it to look like... .I thought I had done that already.

Hang in there.


SB

[Blimblam]

Our own narcissism keeps us stuck.

Examine the role your narcissism played.

I will try to form it into a more coherent narrative but I just realized what role mine played and it just broke most of the fantasy. That's not to say I am not still clinging to my narcissism but I am pretty sure that is where the answer is for many of us.

[Reforming]

Hi Turkish 

Lots of great insights here from other posters.

The only things I would add is that while you may feel stuck it sounds like you are handling very difficult circumstances remarkably well. 

I found the abandonment depression very hard and I was able to enforce complete NC

I have huge respect for what you're accomplishing

I can't imagine how I would deal with LC and the challenge of co-parenting. 

And while we all want to heal and end the pain it sounds like you've come a long way in less than a year…

Have you been able to really grieve? I cried quite a bit over the first year (not a pretty site so I did mine in the privacy of my bedroom). It helped and so did CBT

The best of luck and thanks for posting.

Reforming

[Mutt]

Turkish you have a lot of wise advise. What helped me to unfuse and get out of the FOG and see things for what they are two things. Parallel Parenting and low contact.

My wife has specific Queen / Narcissistic patterns and I can anticipate most of her dissociations and behaviors but it wasn't until I became mostly to completely detached. A Waif really has to pull and tug at our Caretaker traits and the heartstrings and keep us engaged. You have a right to change your mind, you got the parenting thing down. Get your wheels unstuck with throwing up a temporary wall to heal for the kids and for yourself. What if you entertained the idea of Parallel Parenting? To get your heart to catch up with your head.

[Tausk]

Thanks Turk and all for posting:  It's hard.  It's hard to be patient.  It's hard to feel unbalanced.  It's hard fearing where my heart and obsession my lead me tomorrow. 

But we're walking the right path, and having faith in that fact helps me.

I came across this article in NYT. 

www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/opinion/sunday/the-trauma-of-being-alive.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&

It doesn't exactly fit with the topic, but it provided me with some relief.  One snippet:



Mourning, however, has no timetable. Grief is not the same for everyone. And it does not always go away. The closest one can find to a consensus about it among today’s therapists is the conviction that the healthiest way to deal with trauma is to lean into it, rather than try to keep it at bay. The reflexive rush to normal is counterproductive. In the attempt to fit in, to be normal, the traumatized person (and this is most of us) feels estranged.

[myself]

Was talking about this with my T. She says that everyone grieves in their own ways. It's a deep process. There's no schedule to it, and no 'shoulds'. She helped me see that sometimes when I feel stuck, it's that I'm in a new place and just not used to it yet. Not as tied to the past, and coming to an acceptance of now. It's best to focus on myself, today, and where I want to go, more than where and who I was before. Certain plans and expectations don't apply anymore, but there are many many others now to choose from. Still grieving, it will take time to move on, but the ball's already rolling.

[Turkish]

Thank you everbody for your support. I wish I could answer each of you individually, but I will only BlimBlam at this point.

I've seen you mention our own narcissism, but I'm sorry I haven't been closely following. I'll quote my T who told me numerous times, " not everything needs to be pathologized." Still, the trail you are going down is worthwhile to think about.

I will respond and say that my unhealthy assumption was that someone who so strongly feared being cheated on and being abandoned would never do it to me, especially since she so closely felt her mother's pain being constantly cheated on by her father. I don't look at it as narcissism, but naivete.

Today was a bad day. The worst. After dropping off S4 at preschool for the morning, I had Daddy time with my baby (D2). We went to the mall, then to the bookstore when it opened. It was nice being there on a weekday with no crowds, which I hate. Went grocery shopping, then picked up her brother. It should have been good. Nice. What father doesn't want one-on-one time with his precious daughter?

I fell into a deep despair, however. When we picked up her brother, it got worse. I fed them, put on netflix, then retreated to my bed. Despite averaging on 5.5 hours of sleep a night, I still awake early,around 6. Weekends make no difference, with or without the kids. I sleep through, no nightmares.

I felt badly, like a horrible dad. I tired to rest, but only got 5 mins worth until the kids made a noise from the living room. I'm a light sleeper, and not a napper. Then the kids came in and started bugging me.

We took S4 to soccer practice in the afternoon. Felt a little better, but a lot better when I had to address an emergency situation on another board. My co dependent traits? Whatever. I am fine now. No need to hit the red emergency button at the bottom of every thread (it's not just there for ambassadors and staff, but for us all).

I've never felt that badly, never in my life that I could remember. I thought, "maybe this is something like how my uBPDx feels, or my BPD mom?" I felt as if I couldn't function. I didn't feel empty though. I still can't comprehend that.

I wasn't ashamed or fearful either. I accept that it's ok to feel like that, despite a little guilt towards the kids. I've never been a fearful guy, and am the one who offers to take the ex gang banger to the gas station because his tank ran dry in the middle of my street. My ex set me strait on that one, the fearful Hermit, and I took his money, left him there, and filled up his can. The back window to his truck was smashed out. He said because his former assocates had it out for him since he left, and he knew "where the bodies were buried, literally," though he'd never rat them out. Score one for my Ex, but I did judge that he was safe.

I've been through a lot of weirdness in my life; some due to circumstance, most due to my BPD mother. Dysfunction seems normal, which is why I sought out this type of r/s. Stuff for the PI board, I guess.

I'm fine now, really. If it happens again, I probably will make an appointment with my T. Like Tuask said, I shouldn't be focused on a timetable, but accept my feelings. When she takes the kids out of state for a week, it' s back to LC. S4 keeps asking me to be at her apartment, or recently, for her to be at my house. She texted me earlier, "how are the kids?" I wasnt angry, but I replied, kind of using SET, that while I understood her feelings of seperation, I wasn't going to reply to such messages anymore. Since she came out to me last week admitting to being aware of Patentification by her mom which still goes on, I mentionned that, and that I had sympathy, but that I was no longer responsible her her emotions. SET, boundary, done. But it will never be done, not really. She signed the final custody stipulation last week. That's done. My boundaries can come down harder. My boundaries and self worth are continuing projects though, with our two little angel monsters hopefully not in the middle, but they are. Thanks again to everyone for your support.

Turkish

[Blimblam]

yes it was definitely naievety I agree.

I meant no negative connotation.  I was naïve too!

I started another thread to not hijack yours with the rant my mind was on.

something clicked in my head when I related to your post.

It had to do with our role in the trauma bond how it activates our vulnerable narcissism so when we look back we see things better than they were and by our foo and exs we are conditioned to repress fears while associating with feeling good while caretaking. and the feeling they inspired in us self esteem wise. how that creates a false reality that we relate to a positive image of ourself we don't want to let go of.

it seems like each layer of detaching brings an entire new puzzle to be solved.  

Turkish I think you over burden yourself. You handle it but I feel it as a reoccurring theme in your posts.  You have achieved a lot and it is impressive.  But with the way you seem to have your life organized I don't think it is fair to yourself and your healing process.

If I was in your shoes I don't think I would be able to heal from what you went through while handling as many responsibilities as you do.

[Elpis]

Turkish,

I wonder if when you got in the funk if it wasn't just one piece of the grieving--there are so many things to grieve in these circumstances, and sometimes it overwhelms our senses. And all the different stages can occur separately, together, and at whatever time they'd like. It's not a straight line. And since you're still feeling your way through the "what do I really want from this r/s?" it's more confusing.

My T tries to get me to just Observe my emotions rather than try to figure it out and put it in a box or judge it. It's part of what makes us "us" in that we like to pick the whole mess apart and name things, and put it in a tidy psychological box, but nothing is that tidy in real life. Do you think you could try that and see what happens? Just watch your emotions as they roll over and just say "huh. there's the funk" or whatever, and just feel it? It does help me, but I have to remind myself to do it. And when I do it makes the whole grief process so much less tiring than when i'm working so hard at it!

You're exactly right where you should be i'd imagine, since grief is this big pot of soup with a bunch of different elements in it, and it changes constantly.

Trust that you're doing a great job though. You're an interested and involved dad, you have a sensitive side that may make you notice things more, but you've navigated some tough waters already (sorry about the mixed metaphors--unless you can put together "navigating" and "pot of soup" and make it work. I mean, liquid is involved in both I suppose.)

What is it you want from your life now, and how does your ex fit into that picture?

Elpis

[Turkish]

This past week, I noticed my anger faded quite a bit. I should be angry that it faded, but it's good... its been a week and a year since she told me we were done, and in a few weeks, I found out about my replacement (whom she's still with, though S4 doesn't mention him anymore). She didn't move out until early February though.  I went to the movies with them on Sunday and survived. D2 s already standing up to their mom better than S4 does and I did, the little spitfire she is. She put their mom on a time out when she got angry at D2 last week. She's wanting to spend more time together with the kids (FOG from them?). I aquiesced this time, though I'm not going to make a habit of it. I'm still feeling out boundaries.

I think the lesson is that time does help, as frustrating as it is to wait for its inevitable but constant march. The other stuff, I'm responsible for.

[Elpis]

Will spending more time with the kids and their mother get in the way of your grieving the loss of the r/s? How do you see that playing out for you?

[Turkish]

Will spending more time with the kids and their mother get in the way of your grieving the loss of the r/s? How do you see that playing out for you?

I don't know. I think it's worth a visit to the T to get his take on it. Someone credible and detached. Friends still invalidate me, especially the female ones. There can be a place for Ex-bashing, but ultimately it isn't helpful.

I had the thought to invite her on a short drive into the hills with the kids this weekend since I have them. Then I said to myself, "no."

[Mutt]

Perhaps your friends intentions are well intended? Maybe they think it will help you with taking jabs at ex?  Have you set a boundary with them? I need space and time to heal. Do you mind if we not talk about ex until I heal? That could be enough to have them stop the invalidations. I'm on board with you, I didn't want to hear family and friends bash ex after the split. Maybe they had their thoughts and reservations during my marriage. It was my marriage, my wife and not an experience they went through. There's real loss and pain there.

[Elpis]

Definitely worth seein' the T.

And what Mutt said.