Divorce, money, and fairness

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I am in the process of separating from my uBPDgf. We were not married, but owned a house together, joint bank accounts, etc. She borrowed a significant amount of money from me when we moved in together, and we had a re-payment schedule drawn up (which her accountant did), and she performed to the schedule for about a year until we separated. I've made other loans to her, had my credit damaged b/c she defaulted on her car payments and car insurance, etc.

So, fast forward... .we tried mediation, and she backed out after one session. It is now with our lawyers, and I have said to her several times that I don't want to drag this out; please make a fair offer and we can move on, etc.

Well, her idea of fair, and mine are clearly different. In her fair offer she is asking for a greater percentage of the house proceeds (it is about to sell) then she is entitled to based upon our initial equity contributions, and she is saying that she doesn't have to pay me back a single penny more for the money/interest she borrowed from me. Despite her accountant drawing everything up, she is now saying "her advisors" say that the terms were ludicrous, I deceived her, etc.

I could really use some advice here. At this point, throwing in the towel is going to amount to about $75K, which is a lot of money, especially since I am single with two children. Then, there's the emotional cost of fighting her, even though I have the law on my side. Of course, this is tapping into my own emotional desire to be seen as fair, generous, etc. (still pathetically needing this approval). If anyone has any experience here, thoughts, advice, I would be enormously grateful.

[ConverseHome]

I am in the process of separating from my uBPDgf. We were not married, but owned a house together, joint bank accounts, etc. She borrowed a significant amount of money from me when we moved in together, and we had a re-payment schedule drawn up (which her accountant did), and she performed to the schedule for about a year until we separated. I've made other loans to her, had my credit damaged b/c she defaulted on her car payments and car insurance, etc.

So, fast forward... .we tried mediation, and she backed out after one session. It is now with our lawyers, and I have said to her several times that I don't want to drag this out; please make a fair offer and we can move on, etc.

Well, her idea of fair, and mine are clearly different. In her fair offer she is asking for a greater percentage of the house proceeds (it is about to sell) then she is entitled to based upon our initial equity contributions, and she is saying that she doesn't have to pay me back a single penny more for the money/interest she borrowed from me. Despite her accountant drawing everything up, she is now saying "her advisors" say that the terms were ludicrous, I deceived her, etc.

I could really use some advice here. At this point, throwing in the towel is going to amount to about $75K, which is a lot of money, especially since I am single with two children. Then, there's the emotional cost of fighting her, even though I have the law on my side. Of course, this is tapping into my own emotional desire to be seen as fair, generous, etc. (still pathetically needing this approval). If anyone has any experience here, thoughts, advice, I would be enormously grateful.

[ConverseHome]

So sorry, I should have posted this on a different board, though any thoughts are welcome. I'm just at a loss as to how to handle this.

[ForeverDad]

How far can you throw an anvil?  Sadly, that about how much success you'll have in reasoning with her.  She's simply too entitled for her to make reasonable offers or counter offers.  And while you can be fair, you have no obligation to be overly fair, overly nice, etc.  Being overly (whatever) would be sabotaging yourself.  You need to emotionally distance yourself from her since she will continue to use entitlement, guilting etc against you.

Can you let your lawyer handle it from now on, be your buffer?  Also, your sole leverage is that house equity.  Gift that away and you'll get nothing from her despite having tons of obligation notes from her to repay the loans.  (Courts are notorious about not following through to enforce settlements and orders.)  Thoughts from a person who has no legal experience?  Odds are the court will see the house equity as a standard process to accomplish.  Those personal loans might be a little stickier.  One reason I say to hold firm on the house equity split is that (1) you're probably on standard legal ground there and (2) you're less likely to get money back from the personal loans.  She may be ordered to pay, but will she?

By stepping back and either not responding to her emotional blaming or deferring her pressuring claims to your lawyer, you can keep the matter as businesslike as possible.  It will still be messy but at least you don't have to stand there and be the repeated target of her mudslinging.

[AlonelyOne]

My S2BX took all the savings, wants half of any proceeds from house, none of the debt.

[ConverseHome]

Thanks, ForeverDad, this is really terrific advice. I hadn't thought about the implications of holding firm on the equity percentages, rather than the loans. And your point about self-sabatoge and deferring to my attorney are also absolutely right... .I fully recognize that there's something in me that falls prey to the wanting to be the good guy, the fair one, etc., etc. It is clear that in order to "prove" her victimhood, she has to walk away with more than her fair share. Somehow this will put a monetary value to her so-called suffering and push all of the blame onto me, something she was so good at, and still a master at.

Of course, I also know this is a set-up with regard to our mutual friends and colleagues (we work together). She will say how reasonable she was, then will say how I screwed her, she walked away with little/nothing. Victim again. And, believe me, she is very convincing in her victimhood.

What was my wake-up call was the fact that there is nothing - absolutely nothing - mentioned in her negotiations about any accountability for her loans, how I bankrolled her with disproportionate equity amount when we bought the house, how I paid huge downpayment for her new car, etc. I know, this shouldn't be a surprise, though to see it, in black and white. Breathtaking, despite all I've been through already.

[GaGrl]

I'm assuming that you have copies of all documents and cancelled checks related to the down payments for house and car, etc.  That being said, ForeverDad is correct -- it's time to back off, let your lawyer deal with it (especially the communications), and look at the entire situation as a business transaction that requires finalization.

[ForeverDad]

Any person can demand all he or she wants, it's up to the other person (you) to decide whether to let it impact and by how much.  This is about boundaries.  What are your boundaries?  Do you accept guilting, blame shifting, unfair obligations?  If so, then your boundaries are probably weak and/or misplaced and they need scrutiny and adjustments.  Remember, you're dealing with an adult who behaves like a temperamental toddler demanding to get his/her way.  You do a disservice to yourself and the other person if you give in.  Years ago it was called Tough Love.

[ConverseHome]

Thanks for these very important words about letting my lawyer handle things, and most importantly, boundaries.

I have felt like I've made significant progress with this, until it came time for the financial negotiations. For the last six months, I've had a kind of toxic cleansing... .I was called evil, toxic, poison, etc., etc. so many times (words, frankly, I never heard anyone use, let alone with a partner she ostensibly loved) that it's only been through countless hours with a T, reading this board, and staying mindful/present that I have been able to reclaim myself. My point is, though, is there was a compulsion on my part to prove I wasn't the evil, toxic, abusive bad-guy; clearly, I haven't made as much progress as I had thought, as part of what's going on here, as I sit and reflect, is my continued compulsion to prove that I am, in fact, a good guy - flawed, for sure - but a decent human being. So wouldn't a decent person try to be fair? This is something I have to let go of, immediately.

At this point, there's a heck of a lot more at stake than my emotions... .it's now coming down to my financial well-being, and I have to keep reminding myself of the fact that, even if I gave her everything, it still wouldn't be enough. She'd want the paint of the walls if she could have it (she's already cherry-picked through the things we bought together, and like a chump I've let her have what she's wanted).

And, yes, Forever Dad, your point is spot on... .Tough Love. Something I was so afraid to dole out for several years, and when I finally did put my foot down on the alcohol abuse: she left me, saying she was fleeing for her own safety from my abuse (stunning, but she truly seems to believe this). Now I need to focus solely on me and my children, and our financial future. I must keep reminding myself of this.

[hergestridge]

There are some things that I always looked past when we were together. One was her total lack of moral compass. Her idea of right and wrong was very childlike and when a more complex dilemma (where the problem was not black/white) she would often feel entitled to what was not hers and she would fight battles just for the sake of winning.

Now we have separated and I understod immediately that I had to be thick skinned. She expects much more than she can get. She takes generous informal arrangements that I had made for her within our marriage for granted and expects them to last when we are separated.

I know that I have do what I always did when we were together and it boundary crushing time - state my case without considering how upset disappointed she will be.

[mywifecrazy]

And, yes, Forever Dad, your point is spot on... .Tough Love. Something I was so afraid to dole out for several years, and when I finally did put my foot down on the alcohol abuse: she left me, saying she was fleeing for her own safety from my abuse (stunning, but she truly seems to believe this). Now I need to focus solely on me and my children, and our financial future. I must keep reminding myself of this.

You need to read your own words (in boldface above)over and over again until they really sink in. She has shown you what she is capable of and will do to you. She has and will LIE about you as a person to get her way. She doesn't care about how that can harm you for the rest of your life. Take this serious my friend. Listen to FOREVERDADS advice and run everything through a lawyer. Falsely accusing you of abuse is serious! Just imagine what you don't know that she may be doing or saying.

I was STUNNED when I found out that my uBPDxw was a accusing me of beating on her and my boys and also accusing me of raping her. They have very sick and twisted minds and like you said it seams like they believe their own lies. My X was acting like she wanted to reconcile with me and we went into marriage counseling. I found out later that she had already contacted lawyers and was plotting her strategy to divorce me at the same time I was balling my head off in counseling professing my love for her and how I would do anything to save the marriage. She always was and always will be a pathological liar. I lucked out as she is the waif type and the guilt and shame worked in my favor but looking back I could have been DESTROYED because like you I was more worried about her feelings as my head was still in the FOG from the VICTIMHOOD manipulation that she used to control me  

Good luck to you brother. Focus on you and take care of them kids... .They need you!

MWC

[ForeverDad]

And, yes, Forever Dad, your point is spot on... .Tough Love. Something I was so afraid to dole out for several years, and when I finally did put my foot down on the alcohol abuse: she left me, saying she was fleeing for her own safety from my abuse (stunning, but she truly seems to believe this). Now I need to focus solely on me and my children, and our financial future. I must keep reminding myself of this.

You need to read your own words (in boldface above)over and over again until they really sink in. She has shown you what she is capable of and will do to you. She has and will LIE about you as a person to get her way. She doesn't care about how that can harm you for the rest of your life. Take this serious my friend. Listen to FOREVERDADS advice and run everything through a lawyer. Falsely accusing you of abuse is serious! Just imagine what you don't know that she may be doing or saying.

I was STUNNED when I found out that my uBPDxw was a accusing me of beating on her and my boys and also accusing me of raping her. They have very sick and twisted minds and like you said it seams like they believe their own lies. My X was acting like she wanted to reconcile with me and we went into marriage counseling. I found out later that she had already contacted lawyers and was plotting her strategy to divorce me at the same time I was balling my head off in counseling professing my love for her and how I would do anything to save the marriage. She always was and always will be a pathological liar. I lucked out as she is the waif type and the guilt and shame worked in my favor but looking back I could have been DESTROYED because like you I was more worried about her feelings as my head was still in the FOG from the VICTIMHOOD manipulation that she used to control me  

Good luck to you brother. Focus on you and take care of them kids... .They need you!

MWC

Well, since the topic has been brought to the fore, that did happen to me.  In the first few years after our separation ( =  posturing, sour grapes & retaliation) my ex made numerous allegations of child abuse.  When one allegation failed, she made another slightly different.  To son's therapist, to CPS, to children's hospital, to every agency in contact with her.  From minor to the most extreme and perverted you can imagine, she made them, generally just before a big hearing or after she had a public ragefest and she felt she had to try to make me look worse than her.  I shudder to think how it would have been if I had a daughter and not a son!  Yes, it was literally that bad. :'(

Strangely, she didn't make allegations of DV until years later.  I suspect it was because I proved in court she had made death threats against me (court found her not guilty because she didn't have a weapon in her hands and case law limited action to 'imminent' threats) and so she instead chose false allegations of child abuse.

This totally astounded me because we had been married for a dozen years before our son was born, with eight of those working together as religious volunteers.  If it hadn't happened to me, I would have said it was impossible.

Sadly, if allegations have been contemplated or threatened, then you must consider yourself at high risk.

[Dutched]

My 2 cents as I don’t know the US laws (I am from NL) but have experienced such a high conflict divorce.

# absolutely separate emotions for business! Love is emotion, divorce is law!

# mediation: good she stopped, otherwise you would have, due to the bond, be ripped of by her as a BPD is very clever in such situations

(I already had my lawyer standby, but played her game of mediation… 2nd meeting I abruptly left after a remark of her)

# evidence only is needed in court, see to that to back up any claims.

Your lawyer is there for the strategy!

# “educate” him that it will NOT be a normal case!

That is important as lawyers in general tent to “handle just another similar case” another plain straight forward divorce.

# as much as possible, stick to your claim.

In my case ex wife filed for divorce. We as the receiving party waited for the chaos to begin, as ex “feeds” her lawyer with dissociative facts (remember:  FEELINGS = FACT for a BPD!)

So as you write “in her fair offer she is asking for a greater share”… Really, backed up by what?  FACTS please mrs X.

# You write:  “Despite her accountant drawing everything up, she is now saying "her advisors" say that the terms were ludicrous, I deceived her, etc.”  FACTS:  an accountant made it. You deceived her?  Is she diagnosed mental ill at the time of that signature?  Or other FACTS ?

I gave a little, took a lot. A BPD (and therefore her lawyer) is SO predictable in these cases as they can’t handle it emotionally. Having more than 2 yrs time, ex neglected to file an inventory list to the court, consequently the court could not make a verdict for that… Giving me ALL the belongings in the house.

In the end, when she tried to delay and sabotage (she “felt” that there was injustice done => the victim…) the last items before the final signature, I just wrote to the notary (additional to the court order in NL a notary must formalize the split): “When ex doesn’t sign, well then she doesn’t, not my problem. I still live in the house and as she is an owner too, so are all obligations”.  Signed that same day.

Hang in there! You can do it, although it is emotional very heavy!

Concentrate on facts, see that you keep original documents (never give her info!) make your calculations and educate that lawyer.

Try to concentrate on her past behaviour, combine, think out of that box.

  "Fairness"... .  no my friend, that is her hook to emotionally keep you attached, hurt you, that is her playing victim.

As exBPDw said  "you are trying to destroy me".

She forgot what she said:"I shall destroy everything you're attached to, even the relationship with the kids"... .

[maxen]

a very helpful thread. i'm sorry for your situation ConverseHome, i too am divorcing from a wife who was and i'm sure will continue to be presumptuous about my money and who also ran away from a marriage (and to someone else), in which i insisted that she address her alcohol and other habits, with the line that it had "left her broken." not an abuse accusation thank god, but stupefying still. i've had to build my boundaries too, and that's taken time. i'll add my voice to the others who have said to leave the negotiations to your lawyers. you say you have the law on your side, don't forget that. were any of the children with her? do you have to have any direct contact at all?

[ConverseHome]

I am overwhelmed by the incredibly useful advice and support here. Waking up to reading all of this has given me a boost, and makes me realize I'm not completely out of my mind (yet... .!).

Which brings me to the point made here that emotions=facts. That pretty much summed up my relationship with my uBPDgf. If she felt it, then it must be true... .so, why should it be any different now that we are separating/dividing property/finances? Fortunately, I do have all of the documentation from her accountant, email/checks that she was performing (that is paying according to the accountants schedule) on the equity loan prior to our split, etc. What therefore makes it utterly appalling is that she would ignore all of this... .and, to the question as to whether or not she was mentally stable when executing this agreement. Answer is, yes, insofar as she was the one who set up the appointment with the accountant, paid to have the document drawn up, etc. etc. At this point, and still now, she was seeing a T, though one who has bought her emotions=facts perspective completely.

As for our contact now, this is tricky, and it's where I'm vulnerable. I have two children from a prior marriage who are with me about 90% of the time. They are wonderful, loving kids, and my youngest who is 12 became quite attached to her. He asks to see her often, and she texts/calls him independently. All to say, I see her more than I'd like to, and I also feel this is rather manipulative. Still, I can't begin to express how much guilt I have dragging my two children through this, and she knows it.

One thing to make clear: she accused me of verbal/emotional abuse, though not physical (though I fully get based on experiences here that this is a dangerous and slippery slope). That said, her mantra that I am "abusive" is so ingrained, and so outrageous, given what I put up with (and yes, not proud of my behavior at various times, though the 99% of the time that I remained calm is never remembered, just the 1% when I had the audacity to call her out and demand accountability). To this day she fully believes that I made her: drink too much, treat me like an emotional dust bin, threaten to leave/leave countless times... .For a highly educated, brilliant woman, she takes zero accountability for her behavior.

So, I have just emailed my lawyer, directing him to take over and hold firm on what is clearly mine. The point made that in this thread that "she wants what doesn't belong to her," really hit home. And, one final note on that point... .this all started when, 48 hours prior to our buying a home, she came up $100K short on the house. Like a chump, I came up with the difference... .why the shortfall? Her previous partner demanded she pay back $ to her that had been borrowed during their marriage. So, she just basically rolled this over to me, and now I'm supposed to (a) absorb this debt; and (b) dole out more $ on top of it. She feels utterly justified in this. Amazing... .though what's more amazing, is what this says about me. Thanks for all of the advice. It was me who has needed some "tough love" here.

[slimmiller]

Thanks for these very important words about letting my lawyer handle things, and most importantly, boundaries.

I have felt like I've made significant progress with this, until it came time for the financial negotiations. For the last six months, I've had a kind of toxic cleansing... .I was called evil, toxic, poison, etc., etc. so many times (words, frankly, I never heard anyone use, let alone with a partner she ostensibly loved) that it's only been through countless hours with a T, reading this board, and staying mindful/present that I have been able to reclaim myself. My point is, though, is there was a compulsion on my part to prove I wasn't the evil, toxic, abusive bad-guy; clearly, I haven't made as much progress as I had thought, as part of what's going on here, as I sit and reflect, is my continued compulsion to prove that I am, in fact, a good guy - flawed, for sure - but a decent human being. So wouldn't a decent person try to be fair? This is something I have to let go of, immediately.

At this point, there's a heck of a lot more at stake than my emotions... .it's now coming down to my financial well-being, and I have to keep reminding myself of the fact that, even if I gave her everything, it still wouldn't be enough. She'd want the paint of the walls if she could have it (she's already cherry-picked through the things we bought together, and like a chump I've let her have what she's wanted).

And, yes, Forever Dad, your point is spot on... .Tough Love. Something I was so afraid to dole out for several years, and when I finally did put my foot down on the alcohol abuse: she left me, saying she was fleeing for her own safety from my abuse (stunning, but she truly seems to believe this). Now I need to focus solely on me and my children, and our financial future. I must keep reminding myself of this.

You are NOT that guy AND you do not have to prove that you are not. She is counting on keeping you in the FOG because while you are in the FOG, you become much more useful to her. Or I should say, remain useful to her

I think foreverdad has very good points. Let the lawyers deal with it as much as possible. Much less emotions for you to deal with. Her mind is not capable of dealing with proper logic as yours is. Its kinda of like someone that likes to break the law and you tell them a hundred times not to and they do NOT listen no matter how much you reason and explain, they simply dont understand until they are arrested and incarcerated, then they DO understand. They only understand the harsh full and actual consequences and only if the consequences are present. The threat of consequences means nothing to them. Neither does logic and reason or they would avoid consequences. The sad fact is while in a relationship with them we want to protect them from their own consequences. But theres NO reward for that, only pain in the end.

Remember while going through this that theres rarely any reward (recognizition) for your good behaviour and rarely any consequences (from the judicail system) for her bad behaviour

Good luck and yes, first and foremost, take care of you and your children. Because no matter how miserable she makes you now, in 5 years its you and the children that matter

[ConverseHome]

"Because no matter how miserable she makes you now, in 5 years its you and the children that matter"... .Thanks for this enormously important reminder, Slimmiller. And, for reassuring me on the "evil," "toxic," "bad guy," accusations. If I had a dime for every time I was on the receiving end of such labels. Yet, they stuck, and I allowed them to. I had been feeling good about the fact that I had moved on from this, though the financial division of property has brought back my deep desire to be the 'good guy' and to rescue, regardless of the fact that her victimhood is a creation of her own distorted imagination.

Most of all, this thread has helped me with my clarity. There have been many reminders, wake-up calls, and sound wisdoms here... .I have to separate the emotions from the finances, and keep my future, and my children's, front and center. I also have to remember that no matter how many agreements in writing, bank account statements, and the like I put in front of her, she will still find a way to twist/turn the facts, ignore the evidence in front of her, and cry victimhood. I always said I was out of my league in dealing with her distortions, so why should I think that at this moment, when financial stakes are high, I can handle this? It's the old hubris coming back... .the idea that I have the power to fix this, to get her to see my perspective, to cajole her towards the light of logic/reason.

All to say, I think the final throws of separation/divorce are also an emotional reminder that someone like my uBPDgf can not be helped, nor can any amount of reason bring them around (in fact, I only found logic to make her worse/more angry and irrational). Keeping my eye on the future and protecting it from the disordered world that was my past with her has to be my top priority. I owe that to myself and my children.

[ForeverDad]

Due to your past emotionally close relationship she can't see you without seeing the overwhelming emotional baggage of the past relationship as well.  Only effective therapy can help her and to do that she'd have to accept it, apply it and stick with it long term.  Until that happens... .

[livednlearned]

If she is making false allegations that you were hurting her, it's a good idea to avoid being around her and stick to email communication in case you need documentation that she's making threats. In fact, in general, it's a good idea to document everything you do while you get things sorted out. Just in case. I started keeping a log of my days in Google calendar -- you can print it out as an agenda and it sorts things neatly in chronological order. If she says you are abusive or files a restraining order, it will go a long way to show up in court, ask her when this alleged abuse occurred, and have a detailed log of your activity for the past months.

Also, even though you weren't married, it might be useful to read Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy. That will kinda give you a sense of how court and BPD mixes. Even if you don't go to court, it's still a useful book.

If you have a tendency to be fair, maybe make a pact with yourself to not communicate or agree to anything without checking with your L and therapist first. My therapist noticed that what I called "selfish" she called healthy, so for a year we worked on shifting my definition. You might need to do the same for "fair." Whenever I feel selfish, I do a reality check and more often than not, it's just me taking care of myself -- it's healthy to do that. You can't expect your ex to be fair -- the disorder makes it likely that she will be compelled to stay negatively engaged no matter what you offer her. Her feelings have become facts, and she will continue to think that way, so reasoning with her and working things out is highly unlikely. Many of us who have been dealing with the courts notice that our exes will do things that make things worse for them, but they continue on that path because it creates conflict for us, and that is preferable to feeling nothing, hearing nothing, being nothing. It's a tragic, sad, awful disorder. No one wins.

The legal process tends to ratchet up emotions for everyone involved. Lawyers are confusing, the language is hard to read, the process is opaque. I still feel dread when I get mail from lawyers, and it's probably even worse for pwBPD. Better to let your lawyer handle things, and lay low if you can. Keep track of what is getting sent so you know whether to expect any disordered behavior from her, and be careful anytime you have to meet in person.

[Matt]

It sounds like your kids still want to have some contact with your exgf?  How old are they?

If you end all contact between the kids and your ex, that might be traumatic for them, and they might blame you, or just be confused and hurt.

But a continuing deep relationship between the kids and an adult who probably isn't psychologically healthy might also create big problems for the kids over time.

Is there a way to taper off, so you allow them to see her from time to time now, and you take care not to say bad things about her when they are around, and over time you replace her with other adults the kids can get to know and look up to?  So in a year or two their relationship with her isn't as important and the  issue just fades away?