Do BPD's know what their part is?

[Lion Fire]

I was thinking about this today.

In all the discussions and arguments I had with my ex, she never once put her hands up and admitted she had done anything wrong.

Since our break up I have undergone an extremely painful transformation and within that process I was able to see my part in the mess that was our relationship, admit to it and then take actions to change my own patterns within relationships.

My ex degraded, abused and blackmailed me. She effectively stole money from me, smeared my name and admittedly deliberately tried to hurt me. She violently crashed our relationship in her hysterical disordered state.

Is it possible that in moments of clarity and stillness that she is able to see and perhaps own that she destroyed our relationship with her behaviour or is all accountability pushed down by justifications and denial? Do BPD's feel remorse? Does guilt ever catch up with them or do they keep running? I know a lot about this disorder now but still find it unbelievable that someone with BPD is unable to actually see the damage they have caused. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming 

Does anyone have any insight to this?

[AlonelyOne]

I'm not sure... . 

It's also amazing how they can demand something from you, and turn around and decry your having any expectation for the same.

But that is how they process.  It's either, a) they're pathological/psychotic and are aware of what they're doing. And are just strategic mastermind manipulators OR b) they're really unaware and incapable of processing and comprehending their own actions.

CONSCIOUS VS SUBCONSCIOUS

[willtimeheal]

I was thinking about this today.

In all the discussions and arguments I had with my ex, she never once put her hands up and admitted she had done anything wrong.

I just had this conversation with my therapist today. His answer... .no.  They are typical three year olds unable to feel any empathy or remorse. Hopefully over time the three year old will learn how to control and feel as they grow older. The BPD never did.

[Vexed]

Actually deep down I think they do.  This adds to their emptiness, shame/guilt, and they suppress it.  I can't say how it intertwines with how they detach and blame you still in the end.

My exBPDgf took someblame for treating me badly.  She was able to recognize it to a degree but those conversations only last 1 minute if I tried to explain how her behavior resulted in me pulling away I was met with a wall of fury.  In the end to her its my fault for giving up, she has other excuses for breaking up with me too depending on the argument. 

One of the last things I said to her was blame me all you want for your own shame and guilt. She asked what I ment.  I told her deep down you know this is your fault.  She said "I was willing to take full responsibility for this rs not working out until (she was so angry I couldn't understand her) basically something I did in the end allowed her to shift it to me. 

Either way, it doesn't matter.  If they feel responsible its for a split second, and then they suppress or distort that thought instantly.  They aren't who they are because they have the ability to reflect and accept blame, that's who we none are.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Lion Fire,

I think it's important to remember that people with BPD are all unique, just like we are.  Of course there are symptoms and behaviors that are eerily similar (with us, too!), but there is a spectrum with the disorder that can really make a difference in behaviors, and also if the person is getting help or not.

For example, the pwBPD I was involved with did express remorse and guilt for his actions, and for hurting me.  He witnessed the results of his actions, but literally couldn't control some of them when he was dysregulated. 

The destructive behaviors are defense mechanisms – it's about survival for someone with BPD.  If our (perceived) survival depended on not taking on blame, we would most likely deny and disown it, too.

I hurts so much to be on the other end of this, and the denial of wrongdoing doesn't make sense, especially with all the evidence, as you say.  When we try to apply our motivations, logic, and feelings to our partners, though, it doesn't work – and that is what causes so much pain.  We want our partners to see things like we do, but they don't, and never will. They are operating from their reality, which is very different from ours.  I think our work is to accept that.

LF, are you hoping that you will get some validation from your ex that she hurt you, or that she will take some responsibility for the breakup? 

heart   

[hergestridge]

1/ Their idea of what their part is shifts over time. My wife could take blame when I confronted her, but when the conversation was over I could never trust her to still take the blame.

2/ They think they will lose you if they don't comply and they think think they will lose themselves if they comply. If you suggest it's their fault, they may take the blame in fear of losing you but then they will shift the blame towards you in fear of losing themselves.

3/ They are stuck in a world of feelings. They never get to think about what they did and what the consequences were (and what impact it had on others) because they can only think of how they felt at the time and they don't see the context. And they (mis)understand others the same way. The same shallow understanding. "He shouted at me. He was mad. People shouldn't be shouting.". Explain the context to a person with BPD and you're back to paragraph 1.

[goldylamont]

I think it does really depend, not just on the pwBPD but also on the time since as others say their reality shifts so much. Take a look at boards for pwBPD and there's plenty people there that feel guilty and realize they are abusive, wish they could stop but can't. But then again these are all people who know about BPD and are likely diagnosed. For someone never diagnosed who knows? Thing is even if they do realize their part its doubtful they would express it to the person that matters.

[SpringInMyStep]

I'm not sure that they do and this is one reason I couldn't stay with her. Once my eyes were opened that everything she said and did was lying and manipulative, I just lost all feelings for her. I decided not to be taken advantage of anymore.

Definitely do not try and reason with them because they'll deny everything.  My soon-to-be-ex even told me to "stop pathologizing my personality" so that pretty much shut me up right there. She would not ever admit that ANY of her behavior was from her mental illness. We couldn't even use the term "mental illness".

Maybe deep deep down somewhere they know, but the illness doesn't let them react rationally. It's better to just get away from them.

[seeking balance]

Heartandwhole summed up some very, very good facts for you - taking the time to really dig deep will help you in your own closure.

The destructive behaviors are defense mechanisms – it's about survival for someone with BPD.  If our (perceived) survival depended on not taking on blame, we would most likely deny and disown it, too.

When we try to apply our motivations, logic, and feelings to our partners, though, it doesn't work – and that is what causes so much pain.  We want our partners to see things like we do, but they don't, and never will. They are operating from their reality, which is very different from ours.  I think our work is to accept that.

LF, please take time to think about this, here is where you healing can stem from.

LF, are you hoping that you will get some validation from your ex that she hurt you, or that she will take some responsibility for the breakup? 

heart   

[HostNoMore]

I do know that mine was well aware that her behaviors had a very destructive effect on her relationships.  However, she could not control her destructive impulsive behaviors, period.

The disorder has deeply rooted psychological dysfunctionality so on one hand they are trapped within that prison and only operate through a distorted lens.  I do not believe they are strategic masterminds though many are very intelligent.  They have learned who is susceptible to their bait and are experts at controlling the game throughout the entire process.  Many times mine told me that she was going to hurt me so in my case she knew the future would bring whereas I chose to ignore her warnings at my peril.

I basically take the point of view of that they learned these behaviors from a young age.  Once you throw in the common BPD issues like no empathy, poor executive control, and painting others black to hide from the consequences and even to possibly motivate a new crop of potential White Knight saviors, you have the equivalent of a human wrecking ball.

Knowledge of BPD is the key to freedom from BPD.

[KeepOnGoing]

I basically take the point of view of that they learned these behaviors from a young age.  Once you throw in the common BPD issues like no empathy, poor executive control, and painting others black to hide from the consequences and even to possibly motivate a new crop of potential White Knight saviors, you have the equivalent of a human wrecking ball.

Knowledge of BPD is the key to freedom from BPD.

Yep. Mine now has a whole Instagram following of white knights to say all the right things to pad her ego.

[Blimblam]

I think on some level they know exactly what they are doing but they are in so much denial and they way they dissacosiate they are hopelessly lost in there own comprehension of it.

[Lion Fire]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Tbh, I'm not preoccupied with her anymore bit I still get the odd moment when I reflect on and still try to make sense if things. The reason this came up is that she was reaching out for a while trying to reignite contact and I ignored her. There are many good reasons for this but the main one is that she still gives me absolutely no indication of true remorse or accountability. It's probably a blessing as I may find myself tempted to open a door to contact which I know is very risky.

Peace

[willtimeheal]

I think mine knows but has to bury it deep inside. She could never admit or look at her behavior. The guilt, shame, and horror that would come from taking a good look at herself is something she could never do. That is why she twists, turns, and tweaks facts to fit her rated G version. If she ever saw the real violent X rated version she couldn't handle it. She would swear that wasn't her on the screen.

I do believe that is why she is unable to "recall" what happened or she will simply say "I remember. I was  miserable that day."  And then it is expected to be forgotten. They can't handle the shame.

[Blimblam]

I think mine knows but has to bury it deep inside. She could never admit or look at her behavior. The guilt, shame, and horror that would come from taking a good look at herself is something she could never do. That is why she twists, turns, and tweaks facts to fit her rated G version. If she ever saw the real violent X rated version she couldn't handle it. She would swear that wasn't her on the screen.

I do believe that is why she is unable to "recall" what happened or she will simply say "I remember. I was  miserable that day."  And then it is expected to be forgotten. They can't handle the shame.

I agree completely. I have mine seen my ex faced with all these realizations when she ripped open to the abandoned child mode and she was completely aware of all the things she did and was going to everyone to admit what she did and seek forgiveness but she was so terrified and there was so much dread.  It was so incredibly painfull for her.  She can not even remember most of it now.

[Tausk]

Do they know their part? 

Miy exgfwBPD did to a certain degree, but that knowledge did not provide any relief. She is dissociative.  What one mode knows is transitory and not necessarily going to be remembered or transfered to the next mode.

I may know that my heart beats, but do I really understand why and how it beats.  And does the knowledge that my heartbeats help me in an effort to it from beating? 

Or anyway of putting it:  Crazy Is as Crazy Does.

[tired-of-it-all]

My BPD wife certainly does not.  She takes no responsibility for her behavior or for her part in anything.  It is so frustrating.  I asked a counselor recently why we keep trying.  He said that we want justice.  He said we want it but we ain't gonna get it.

[Tausk]

My BPD wife certainly does not.  She takes no responsibility for her behavior or for her part in anything.  It is so frustrating.  I asked a counselor recently why we keep trying.  He said that we want justice.  He said we want it but we ain't gonna get it.

And that is the crux of the issue.  From what I've learned, pwBPD have a very difficult time taking responsibility for their actions.  When a want is the same as a need, there is no impulse control.  

Often on these boards, we lament, "She knows! So why doesn't she take responsibility?"  And the answer is because they are not hardwired to do it. They either don't know how, or just as reasonably the actions is so painful that they would rather just leave.  

Another example, you the mountain climber, from the movie, who gets his arm stuck in a crevice.  It's really really stuck and you're all alone.  And you're going to die... .for sure.  No way out.  No chance.  But you have a pocket knife on you, and you can survive if you cut off your arm at the elbow.

How many of us would be able to do it?  Even if pure survival is at stake, many would choose to die than inflict that much self pain on ourselves.  

I don't think my exgfwBPD's mind and emotions think much differently than the above example, when it comes to taking responsibility for her transgressions.  Even when she might know she acted inappropriately.  

[Ironmanrises]

Whether the pwBPD knows or not is irrelevant, why accept responsibility when the 'perceived' problem in the pwBPD's mind is you, the non. Sure, a pwBPD might say 'I'm sorry, etc' but that is only to get something from the non. Behavior will not change, and assuming any responsibility to their actions is directly linked to that. That is the disorder.

[malwa]

'I'm sorry, etc' but that is only to get something from the non.

I agree.

My exBPDgf was sorry many times, but when it came to action she acted always the same. When I wanted to talk about our arguments, actions and interactions that were really devastating for both of us - just to protect us from repeating them, from repeating the cycle - she did not want to talk ("I dont like to analyse" - she used to say), or blamed me for everything.

"You shouted at me, I hate it" - I heard this sentence million times.

Of course context did not matter... .Oh no, context always did matter when it was "my fault", never when it was her fault, because she was NOT GUILTY.

I can hardly imagine what she may feel. When she was crying and begging me not to brake up with her she was repeating "I was so bad, I know, I should've done this and that... .".

Deep in my heart I know that she knew what to say only because I told her so many times what I would need to feel good, how important for me is that she is supporting, empathic etc.

That's why in the moment of crisis she knew what can make me think that she really understand and "see the light".

I did not believe in that.

Maybe she realised/realises everything, but she would never give me the proof of that in her actions.

After 2 weeks of getting love letters from her (I was remaining no contact) I learned from my friend that she found the new love and she is amazingly happy. Now it's been 6 weeks since I broke up with her. And I have not thought yet about looking for new love... .I am not good at cutting off as her. I prefer therapy.

[blissful_camper]

Whether the pwBPD knows or not is irrelevant, why accept responsibility when the 'perceived' problem in the pwBPD's mind is you, the non. Sure, a pwBPD might say 'I'm sorry, etc' but that is only to get something from the non. Behavior will not change, and assuming any responsibility to their actions is directly linked to that. That is the disorder.

Exactly. 

(In bold) I think this is one of many reasons why the pwBPD moves on so quickly to a new relationship. They must in order to reinforce their belief that their partner is the problem. The idealization phase with the new partner reinforces that belief, making it much easier for them to rewrite history ('this new relationship is going well, it wasn't me, my spouse/partner was the problem' thus avoiding taking responsibility.  And... .the cycle repeats itself, over and over... .  Some may have brief moments of clarity, but I believe even that is superficial. As IR says, it's self serving.  They tell you what you want to hear when you're still useful to them.  Once that 'usefulness' ends, they will make no effort to keep up the charade, and you will see who's really behind the mask.   

[camuse]

At lot of things are coming back to me now, which I'm trying to make sense of.

Mind actually recognised that one of her rages was not normal behavious and shocked herself. She went to a private psychiatrist, who prescribed her with anti anxiety drugs and anti psychotics. I never asked any questions or mentioned BPD, but she said "He said I don't have a personality disorder." Another time she said "I think about 80% of women are BPD but I'm definately not."

For all I know, she lied about what he said. Or maybe he did say that, maybe she lied to him. Who knows? But I think now she was trying to convince herself.

After we split she started two conversations about her childhood, neither of which made sense. The first she was blaming me for it all, and suddenly said "You have to understand, my parents, they made me like this, I'm messed up" and the second she said "I think we don't realise how much our parents affect us. My father, he is so amazing. I don't know about your parents, but mine... .He just cares so much about my mother. But she was so... ." and the subject was changed.

I think she knew deep down what was wrong with her but couldn't admit it to herself.

[camuse]

One thing that always upset me was my ex never cared about how much distress I was in during or after one of her rages. I would try to tell her but she simply didn't respond, as if I hadn't spoken. I would have said, someone who loves someone, cares if their loved one is in visible distress?

But she would say, I was the one who didn't love her - because SHE was the one in distress, and that's why she was raging, and instead of getting upset, I should have sympathized, tried harder to see her point of view.

It's all left me very confused about how relationships are supposed to actually work. A screaming, shouting rage is not reasonable behavior, is it? Requiring your partner to behave reasonably, even if they are upset about something, doesn't mean you don't care about them, right?

[Infared]

I was thinking about this today.

In all the discussions and arguments I had with my ex, she never once put her hands up and admitted she had done anything wrong.

Since our break up I have undergone an extremely painful transformation and within that process I was able to see my part in the mess that was our relationship, admit to it and then take actions to change my own patterns within relationships.

My ex degraded, abused and blackmailed me. She effectively stole money from me, smeared my name and admittedly deliberately tried to hurt me. She violently crashed our relationship in her hysterical disordered state.

Is it possible that in moments of clarity and stillness that she is able to see and perhaps own that she destroyed our relationship with her behaviour or is all accountability pushed down by justifications and denial? Do BPD's feel remorse? Does guilt ever catch up with them or do they keep running? I know a lot about this disorder now but still find it unbelievable that someone with BPD is unable to actually see the damage they have caused. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming  

Does anyone have any insight to this?

Lion Fire

I experienced what you did and I would have to say that mine saw nothing "wrong" with her behavior. Nothing. Basically, I had not behaved the way she had manipulated me to behave so therefore she was justified in all of her actions to harm me. Like a child. This is mental illness... .so hard to remember that all of the time!

[trappedinlove]

I'm sure it's very personal and depends how self-aware the pwBPD is, if they are in therapy, and where they are in their own process.

My uBPDxso had high level of self awareness and we had long talks about her internal world and she was very aware of her internal flaws, although she wasn't diagnosed, she was definitely aware of her past wrong doings and present challenges.  I saw how deep and extreme (-> disregulated) are her emotions, I've seen and heard how shameful she feels. I've heard how bad of a person she perceives herself as.  She was very aware of her part.

BUT, that said, at certain points she seemed dissociated.  Dissociated from her memories and from her feelings, and I'm not sure how aware of her part she was under this mental state.

Read this from a blog by a BPD young woman called Haven who's done a very impressive job in her therapy and is extremely self aware.

I find reading her blog a very useful resource to better understand the world of a BPD and how her mind works differently than myself's:

www.downwardspiralintothevortex.com/2011/10/lucid-analysis-trials-in-therapy_28.html

TIL

[hergestridge]

My wife received a formal BPD diagnosis seven weeks ago. She told me the same night she broke up with me. The relationship became both threatening and useless to her when the could longer put blame on me (or "the relationship".

Through the years she has had many therapists and psychiatrists tell her that her problem is her crap relationship, because that's how she has described her problem to them. For the last year she has come in contact with specialists who have evaluated her properly and called her bluff on the scapegoating.

She knows very well what her part is, but then she takes a deep breath so that she can convince herself for another moment that it's not her fault.

[camuse]

After one particularly bad rage, mine actually booked herself into a T. She admitted she had scared herself and had been out of control.

She didn't say much about the visit, in fact the only comment was "He said when you do bad things to me, I need to ignore them."

But the interesting thing she said was "He says I definitely don't have personality disorder." I'd never mentioned pds to her before and she hadnt to me, so I wonder why she said that. Maybe denial?

[Infared]

After one particularly bad rage, mine actually booked herself into a T. She admitted she had scared herself and had been out of control.

She didn't say much about the visit, in fact the only comment was "He said when you do bad things to me, I need to ignore them."

But the interesting thing she said was "He says I definitely don't have personality disorder." I'd never mentioned pds to her before and she hadnt to me, so I wonder why she said that. Maybe denial?

Was this after one visit?

[camuse]

Yeah after the first visit. I think she only went twice, she never really talked about what they discussed, other than that he taught her mindfulness techniques, and told her she was "severely anxious". She was prescribed anti-psychotics too (the T. was part of a large private clinic)

[Blimblam]

I am fairly positive a part of them knows but the disorder repressed memories that are to shameful to deal with.  It is tragic. It is a serious mental illness.  We remember.  Remember the sadistic smirk?  They were aware of their actions. Do they fully understand them?  :)oes it matter?  We remember.  We can't forget. We can only rebuild ourselves.  

Hope was used as a weapon against us.  That hope is ours it is our strength.  We hoped for something beyond the fantasy beyond the superficial. Faith in pure unconditional love that it does exist.  Hope in a loving compassion that can cleanse the soul.  It does exist we felt it it is a part of us and it is within waiting for us to reclaim.