Quid Pro Quo

[Depression = 72% of members]

As we all recognize, a relationship with a pwBpd entails a great deal of caretaking (by a non). Yet, while partnered in an unstable relationship, with a disordered person, I found that establishing a quid pro quo, was perhaps the most effective means for enjoying their company. While they cannot fulfill ordered relational/emotional needs, their ability to intutively grasp the deepest sexual wants of their partner, and enthusiastically collaborate in effectuating those wants, without inhibition or complaint, is an important enticing element. In my experience, requesting that the pwBpd meet those wants, was infrequently met with recalcitrant shaming, but were matter-of-factly understood, due to their own familiarity with compulsive needs.

In other avenues, my partner preferred being given specific direction concerning material choices and obligations. She felt that those directions alleviated her stress and and anxiety. In essence, they were my self-defined quid pro quo--which for me went a long way towards mitigating the inequitable aspects involved in eggshell walking.

So, in your relationship with your pwBpd, in order to gain some elements of reciprocality, did you request/expect/demand a quid pro quo from your partner? If so, how did that quid pro quo manifest itself, and did you perceive said quid pro quo as a way to maintain selfish (beneficial) boundaries?  Finally, as your relationship flat-lined either abrubtly, or relatively gradually, did you view their "acting out" as a rebellion against being emeshed in your quid pro quo?

[Conundrum]

As we all recognize, a relationship with a pwBpd entails a great deal of caretaking (by a non). Yet, while partnered in an unstable relationship, with a disordered person, I found that establishing a quid pro quo, was perhaps the most effective means for enjoying their company. While they cannot fulfill ordered relational/emotional needs, their ability to intutively grasp the deepest sexual wants of their partner, and enthusiastically collaborate in effectuating those wants, without inhibition or complaint, is an important enticing element. In my experience, requesting that the pwBpd meet those wants, was infrequently met with recalcitrant shaming, but were matter-of-factly understood, due to their own familiarity with compulsive needs.

In other avenues, my partner preferred being given specific direction concerning material choices and obligations. She felt that those directions alleviated her stress and and anxiety. In essence, they were my self-defined quid pro quo--which for me went a long way towards mitigating the inequitable aspects involved in eggshell walking.

So, in your relationship with your pwBpd, in order to gain some elements of reciprocality, did you request/expect/demand a quid pro quo from your partner? If so, how did that quid pro quo manifest itself, and did you perceive said quid pro quo as a way to maintain selfish (beneficial) boundaries?  Finally, as your relationship flat-lined either abrubtly, or relatively gradually, did you view their "acting out" as a rebellion against being emeshed in your quid pro quo?

[Mutt]

Quid pro quo ("something for something" in Latin[1]) means an exchange of goods or services, where one transfer is contingent upon the other. English speakers often use the term to mean "a favour for a favour"; phrases with similar meaning include: "give and take", "tit for tat", and "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours."

Can you elaborate on "something for something" as a model in a r/s? What are the pros and cons? Did it work for you every time?

[Tausk]

I never consciously moved in this direction, but I can understand how it might develop.  After things got really bad, we recycled as "friends" when she was in DBT, but I wouldn't have sex with her.  In part, because it was toxic, and in part because I had taken religious vows not to have sex with someone when it might be considered abuse, such as with a mentally Disordered individual.

My ex wanted to move back in with me and tried often to seduce me.  I said that I wanted for us to learn to be friends and then support each other as partners.  

My ex in the most honest moment of her life said to me, "I don't know how to do that. All I can give you is sex and cook for you."

And with your post I realize that she looked at much of all her "interactions" with everyone as a trade.   Similar to how small children interact with the world.  When one of my ex's exploitative friends devalued my ex, my ex said, "I have to get her back.  I don't care what I have to buy her, I have to get her back as a friend."  Exactly how children interact, "I'll like you if you carry my books" or "If you play with me, I'll give you my GI Joe."

Only for my ex it was like, I'll offer you mirrored sex for your "self".

Not sure if this answers your question.  I never really conceptualized my interaction with my ex as trades.  We didn't have enough boundaries to trade.  She with her Disorder, and me with my FOO issues and codependence.  

But maybe I thought by giving her all of my "self" that perhap it would buy her loyalty.  

Crazy is as Crazy does.

[patientandclear]

Basically, yes, I have found myself and have seen with others here that, when we clearly articulate what we want, the pwBPD will often step up and do that thing, if not then and there, later.

I do think it's a quid pro quo.  It's like the information they assimilate at the outset during the idealization/mirroring period: it's to assist them in accessing your self or in preventing your departure.

When people talk about how pwBPD are fundamentally servile and in "bondage," here is an example. They will play the cards we value in order to keep us engaged.

When I was enforcing some boundaries a year ago and pulling away from my pwBPD, he suddenly offered up some highly valued aspects of our former relationship that I had let slip six weeks before really mattered to me.  He stored that info away.  Out it came when he needed to cement me in place.

So yes, I think cataloging your wants is a good way to get them eventually and temporarily met in these relationships.

I'm trying to figure out why that is different than "normal" relationships, where we still do what the partner wants in order to please them ... .but it does feel very different.  It feels more exploitative (of both parties) and transactional.

[myself]

It sounds like another way of saying "Let's use each other."

[AlonelyOne]

All I can give you is sex and cook for you.

Gotta admit, that sounds really appealing. I think I could of managed fairly well if those two items had been regular, even with BPDX. LOLZ

[hergestridge]

I never said to my partner what I wanted, because that would have left her feeling "forced" to do certain things and that would have backfired miserably. I made the mistake of telling her what i prefered sexually, and that resulted in her altering between mechanically giving me exactly that (overdoing it and obviously not enjoying giving it) and then suddenly refusing to do it because "... .it's just for you, I don't like it". The end result was always that if I liked it, she hated it. Sex was very much "Your turn, my turn", and still she thought our sex life was amazing.

It's down to the same BPD logic that her dad (who is most like BPD too) operates; if you politely ask them to do something it's as you have forced them to do it, and then they refuse to do it. If they comply they think they lose themselves, if they don't comply they think they lose you. I never found the win-win situation you describe.

[Tausk]

All I can give you is sex and cook for you.

Gotta admit, that sounds really appealing. I think I could of managed fairly well if those two items had been regular, even with BPDX. LOLZ

Yeah, well she was a lousy cook, and the rest wasn't worth the price of my soul.

Radical acceptance meant that if I stayed, the Disorder would force my ex to cheat in some way or another.  There was no coin in her hand that she would barter with that would cause me to be willing to give her multiple runs at infidelity.  

But for some people it works.

[MommaBear]

I don't even know what to say to this. I tried so very hard NOT to engage in quid pro quo type deals with my ex.

He did, however, hand me his entire pay without question. I paid all the bills, got him out of most of his debt, kept the creditors off his back, and saved up a tidy nest egg to buy our house with.

I suspect he did this more because he was so terrible at paying things on time more than anything else, and just didn't want to deal with it. I was like his accountant.

Of course, even THAT is being used against me now. I never let him have fun (I explained, several times, that his reckless spending and high maintenance lifestyle was not possible on our budget - it wasn't *ME*, it was basic *MATH* preventing him from living how he wanted!).

But I can relate to the sex/cooking thing. God, if that wasn't an exchange on a very primitive, base level, I don't know what was!

I think he counted O's and kept score. I learned really quickly never to fake it, otherwise I *owed* him one.

[Blimblam]

Quid pro quo I would think are fleas.  I remember at a certain point I began feeling taken advantage of and I had to sort of set up a bargaining system to try to get back to things being equitable in the relationship. At the same time I would explain the situation and how I did not want it to be like that. I would get into explaining equity as an aspect of self reflection and personal accountability.  I was stuck in a position of having to constantly enforce boundaries and I would explain the situation clearly. She did not understand and it would trigger her. It was at this time I felt like she wanted me to punish her and boss her around and rebel against me.  I would disengage.  Slowly over time she sucked me into the drama constantly upping the ante in her seemingly desperate need for drama.  

In retrospect it is just more evidence on how a healthy equitable relationship is just not possible with unless she got proper treatment for herself.  I don't want that kind of drama in my life.

[Conundrum]

Quid pro quo I would think are fleas.

In application it is the opposite. A trade or bargain is an exchange of promises for the benefit of both parties. For example, if you gain merit from mirroring my good qualities then you will conduct yourself in accordance with those qualities. Or in other words, I consent to your mirroring in exchange for your promise of functionality.

It's a rather simple approach. The pwBPD is soothed by mirroring. The non in exchange receives relational functionality. Therefore stability is enhanced.

Functional stability when partnered with a pwBPD is foundational--enabling enjoyment of their company--thereby fostering the ability to clearly perceive without constantly capsizing the boat. It allows incremental step building leading to relational accords. Inevitably those accords are transitory, but that does not diminish their specific merit.               

[Blimblam]

Conundrum,

Would you please dumb it down for me?

[Tausk]

Quid pro quo I would think are fleas.

In application it is the opposite. A trade or bargain is an exchange of promises for the benefit of both parties. For example, if you gain merit from mirroring my good qualities then you will conduct yourself in accordance with those qualities. Or in other words, I consent to your mirroring in exchange for your promise of functionality.

It's a rather simple approach. The pwBPD is soothed by mirroring. The non in exchange receives relational functionality. Therefore stability is enhanced.

Functional stability when partnered with a pwBPD is foundational--enabling enjoyment of their company--thereby fostering the ability to clearly perceive without constantly capsizing the boat. It allows incremental step building leading to relational accords. Inevitably those accords are transitory, but that does not diminish their specific merit.               

There are quite a lot of high end prostitutes who have  BPD.    In fact the best ones are BPD.  Thousand dollars a night or more.  Why would you pay that much or more for sex.  Because a prostitute with BPD is so much more than just sex.  The pro will mirror the client's good.  Validate the clients ethos.  Become one with the client.  Have passionate sex with the client.   Have real orgasms that let the client know how virule he is and how much he both emotionally and physically moves the pwBPD.

And thus the the exchange is made. 

[Conundrum]

There are quite a lot of high end prostitutes who have  BPD.    In fact the best ones are BPD.  Thousand dollars a night or more.  Why would you pay that much or more for sex.  Because a prostitute with BPD is so much more than just sex.  The pro will mirror the client's good.  Validate the clients ethos.  Become one with the client.  Have passionate sex with the client.   Have real orgasms that let the client know how virule he is and how much he both emotionally and physically moves the pwBPD.

And thus the the exchange is made. 

That may be. They have an abundance of passion and killer looks, which remain marketable assets. In domestic relations the promises exchanged hopefully serve a higher purpose beyond mere carnal relations, and that benevolence is a true consideration for the exchange of promises, or vows.

[hergestridge]

In essence every relationship is an exchange of favours (if you look past the romantic notions), but a pwBPD tends not to accept that. My wife used to breach her part of the deal anytime she "felt" that I did not truly love her.

[patientandclear]

Conundrum, if I understand what you're saying, you are suggesting that these transactions can form steps in building a sort of enduring relationship, even though it has breaks in it and is not sustained constantly.  Is that right?

My experience with my ex makes me think that that is possible.  I had to get off the train, though, where the emotional bonds one would normally develop between people sharing a "transaction" of the sort you are describing, were violated.  I think you would say: right, you either can't develop those bonds or you can't expect them not to be violated.  But I can't manage that.  It hurts and it starts to feel like the whole thing is built on betrayal.  How do you keep engaging without feeling let down and hurt by the inevitable failure to sustain those bonds and sense of obligation?

[Conundrum]

I think you would say: right, you either can't develop those bonds or you can't expect them not to be violated.  But I can't manage that.  It hurts and it starts to feel like the whole thing is built on betrayal.  How do you keep engaging without feeling let down and hurt by the inevitable failure to sustain those bonds and sense of obligation?

Patient, it would be no different that saying, "I feel let down and hurt that she is disordered." Or, "I am let down and hurt that she was abandoned and sexually exploited at five." What is radical acceptance, if it is not accepting that the causal circumstances and genetics, cannot be undone. A condition precedent to associating with her is accepting that she is unstable and her resultant relationships are unstable too. Having free-will allows us to determine whether we want to pursue the association or abandon it. Life is dynamic, and both she and I are in motion. At times she is more stable, and at other times not. At times I am involved or less involved. I would say the tie which best defines us is family. Why abandon a person, when their entire life has been running away from abandonment? It's not so difficult to maintain ties. My sense of being and purpose are not defined by this attachment.

In essence, when you ask about violating boundaries or quid pro quo, the demarcation line for me is being domiciled or separate. If we are sharing a domicile then I have a right to expect compliance with ordered relational mechanics--at the very least a structured good faith attempt at managing the disorder. When living with my pwBPD I expect her to be in either a DBT or schema program. The maintenance and growth achieved in evidenced based treatment programs are necessary, promoting relational stability. Additionally, she cant "use" either drugs or alcohol. They diminish and dysregulate her. If we're not domiciled, then I am not her warden. Expecting relational stability from her would be asinine. She gives into the disorder and lets it take her wherever it may lead. The vast majority of those places are not places I choose to follow.

So, what are we--ordered and disordered, bound in a familial sense.                        

[patientandclear]

OK but ... .doesn't she push into a kind of relating that usually goes with obligation and commitment to care for you?  To sustain that?

You are very close to this woman, you both have tender feelings toward each other.  What you're describing sounds like a part-time soul mate arrangement, yes?

I'm struggling with this because my ex would very much like me to do what you do with the woman with BPD in your life. I do accept why he is how he is -- I am not trying to change him or criticize him.  But he comes blasting in offering the emotional equivalent of a BJ and then leaves while I'm still trying to engage him at that level. I don't get how you can couple and de-couple with someone you care so much about, without a great deal of pain.

I hope you know (and I sense you do) that I am not trying to question your choices.  I'm trying to explore whether there is something I am missing about how I could have a "healthy" meaningful engagement with my ex without opening myself up to what feels like repeated betrayal.

It feels to me like being used.  Is that a failure of imagination on my part?

[Conundrum]

I'm struggling with this because my ex would very much like me to do what you do with the woman with BPD in your life. I do accept why he is how he is -- I am not trying to change him or criticize him.  But he comes blasting in offering the emotional equivalent of a BJ and then leaves while I'm still trying to engage him at that level. I don't get how you can couple and de-couple with someone you care so much about, without a great deal of pain.

It feels to me like being used.  Is that a failure of imagination on my part?

Patient, it's not a failure of imagination, and you shouldn't ever feel shame over desiring a relationship that empowers your dignity.  

Yet, you're asking me two separate questions:

First--the disorder is relational, manageable, but prone to relapse. Therefore, what are reasonable aspirational relationship goals in light of that? Not wishes, dreams, illusions, idyllic fantasies, but clearly perceived reality. We all must answer that for ourselves, and I've made peace with my own unassailable conclusions.

Second--my contextual perspective has little bearing or universal application for another. After, two relationships spanning in total 25-years, I find myself at a point in my life in which my career has reached it's apex, and I am currently all in--invested in meaningful ways which engage me daily, on extremely challenging and meaningful levels. Additionally, I'm co-parenting two teenage boys, which as you can imagine is a world unto itself. So with my haphazard friend, this on and off again helpmate/partner, I crave little more than she offers. I receive the benefits of our bond, albeit on an inconsistent basis without the obligations that would be required of me in a committed relationship. Furthermore, I am free from the collateral aspects of BPD that can drag one into a vortex of despair. There are tragic elements to this woman that if I was a deity I would repair, but I cannot. I will not abandon her, still I cannot let her interfere and dysregulate my purpose. Truly, I see little relevance or applicability concerning my little corner of reality to yours or anyone else's. You must follow a path that soothes your own soul and empowers grace, in this one life that we share.

[Blimblam]

ah, I see conundrum.  You know I think it is possible to maintain something over time the "problem" is love.  Love the way we understand it scares them.  They don't understand it.  In fact after I had been discarded  my ex texted me, "I wish you didn't have to love me.  You are my all time favorite and I want that back."  I still had no idea about the disorder at the time and it really confused me.  She still considered me her favorite toy at the time but she wanted everything on her terms. 

The problem is if we fall for their charms in the first place and make those deep bonds.  It then becomes difficult to maintain some sort of machiavelian approach to handling them. Unless you have a degree of aspd that allows you to detach in that way.

[Conundrum]

The problem is if we fall for their charms in the first place and make those deep bonds.  It then becomes difficult to maintain some sort of machiavelian approach to handling them. Unless you have a degree of aspd that allows you to detach in that way.

Blim, I don't think you have to be ASPD, and I don't think it has to be calculated at all. I love my pwBPD as much as the mother of my children, perhaps even more. I am family with my ex-wife, and I am family with my ex-pwBPD. It's been 9 years since we met, and still we know that our bond exceeds the DSM-V neat and clinical definition. Love embraces, ego excludes... . 

[fromheeltoheal]

Damn I love reading me some Conundrum.

I suppose my ex made things easier with phrases like "I can get anything I want with a blow job."  She honestly believed that, and her narcissism was such that I'd be a fool not to accept the deal, since she was the most awesome woman alive.  But that was the deal, she laid it out for me, her idea of a transaction the terms of which many before me had accepted, until they didn't.  And as we all know a transaction, a business deal, is a low form of relationship, one notch above completely selfish baby love, and as we came to find out, the highest type of relationship a disordered person is capable of.  Conundrum's transaction of trading soothing mirroring for relative relational stability seems workable, in a relationship with a borderline, and I wanted so much more from mine.  Not to be, although it was an effective lab for clarifying what I do want.  Forward... .

[Blimblam]

conundrum,

I guess its about experience with recognizing a borderline in advance and knowing the score.  What I mean is once you get caught in the vortex and things run its course it is hard to let go of all the pain and just start back at the way things were.  A lot of my bargaining in my mind tends to be of the nature that the next guy will be aware enough to follow the quid pro quo route and not get sucked in.  I didn't know about BPD before my ex so I got duped.  Some of them are obvious like the ones with drinking problems and I would know from the get go this girl is not capable of self awareness.