How serious is emotional cheating?

[White_Lily]

Hi all,

I have been struggling for a while with an issue that has affected the relationship with my BPD bf tremendously.

We have been together in a long-distance relationship for over 9 years for professional reasons (it's about 1.5 hours driving distance) so re-locating has been difficult for both of us. The reason the relationship has survived that long, in my opinion, is that we have a deep connection (perhaps spiritually?) and we like to do the same thing at the "daily activity" level.  We spend a lot of time doing things, travelling, camping, cooking, etc... .All this has been wonderful except for one thing: cheating at the emotional level, at least as far as I know! 

Five years ago, my bf started a relationship with someone who lives in his own town.  It lasted for about a month, and according to my b/f he told that person about me, and she refused to continue with the relationship for obvious reasons.  My bf told me about this relationship before he told the other woman as he wanted to come clean with me.  It was hurting him to do such a thing behind my back.  I was devastated, and his reaction to remedy the situation was to propose to me to proof that he loves me and he wants to spend the rest of his life with me (yes, we actually have been engaged for 4 years, but I would like to stick to "bf" for now).

Few months later after that incident, I started to feel that there is something not quite right going on between my bf and his next door married neighbour who is few years older than him. They became friendly and started to exchange texts and emails.  When I asked him what is going on, he replied that they are just friends. To make a long story short, this "friendship" has been going on for over 3 years.  According to my bf, it is still nothing, they make each other laugh, so it is not beyond a fun thing to do.  In my mind and heart, I know this is not right at all, and it is cheating.  Again, he kept assuring me that the relationship is not at the physical level, but it is just to have some fun.  He always assures me that I am the one who he loves, and he would like to live with me when we retire in our mid 50's (we are both in our early 50's) and the work situation will no longer be an issue.

I read some (but few) posts on this forum related to this issue and I understand that people with BPD traits like to have plans to help them regulate their emotions. My bf keep insisting that he does not want us to split up, but I know that being far away it makes all sense why the relationship is convenient for him. I am feeling that these behaviours have been affecting our relationship and the connection we have established. 

I think I know that my bf is actually cheating on me, but I would appreciate your thoughts and experience on this.

Thanks.

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[christoff522]

Hi all,

I have been struggling for a while with an issue that has affected the relationship with my BPD bf tremendously.

We have been together in a long-distance relationship for over 9 years for professional reasons (it's about 1.5 hours driving distance) so re-locating has been difficult for both of us. The reason the relationship has survived that long, in my opinion, is that we have a deep connection (perhaps spiritually?) and we like to do the same thing at the "daily activity" level.  We spend a lot of time doing things, travelling, camping, cooking, etc... .All this has been wonderful except for one thing: cheating at the emotional level, at least as far as I know!  

Five years ago, my bf started a relationship with someone who lives in his own town.  It lasted for about a month, and according to my b/f he told that person about me, and she refused to continue with the relationship for obvious reasons.  My bf told me about this relationship before he told the other woman as he wanted to come clean with me.  It was hurting him to do such a thing behind my back.  I was devastated, and his reaction to remedy the situation was to propose to me to proof that he loves me and he wants to spend the rest of his life with me (yes, we actually have been engaged for 4 years, but I would like to stick to "bf" for now).

Few months later after that incident, I started to feel that there is something not quite right going on between my bf and his next door married neighbour who is few years older than him. They became friendly and started to exchange texts and emails.  When I asked him what is going on, he replied that they are just friends. To make a long story short, this "friendship" has been going on for over 3 years.  According to my bf, it is still nothing, they make each other laugh, so it is not beyond a fun thing to do.  In my mind and heart, I know this is not right at all, and it is cheating.  Again, he kept assuring me that the relationship is not at the physical level, but it is just to have some fun.  He always assures me that I am the one who he loves, and he would like to live with me when we retire in our mid 50's (we are both in our early 50's) and the work situation will no longer be an issue.

I read some (but few) posts on this forum related to this issue and I understand that people with BPD traits like to have plans to help them regulate their emotions. My bf keep insisting that he does not want us to split up, but I know that being far away it makes all sense why the relationship is convenient for him. I am feeling that these behaviours have been affecting our relationship and the connection we have established.  

I think I know that my bf is actually cheating on me, but I would appreciate your thoughts and experience on this.

Thanks.

The reason your relationship has lasted for so long is because of it's current nature. It's massively convenient for him. He will have lots of little 'orbiters' around him, people who fill his emptiness and make him feel more secure. You are his number one out of (x) number of people. He keeps you sweet with tales of how much he wants to marry you - but it's quite possible he would skip town if marriage became an inevitability. In my mind emotional cheating is just as bad as real cheating, because it is, love is in our hearts, and when a heart is divided between 5 or 6 different people its not 'real' love for any of them, people become commodities - kept sweet so they don't leave.

One day you will experience being split back, and you will see the real him, the real him is a vicious nasty cold human being. Someone who will leave you before you leave them, who will hate you because of his own insecurities. Do you really want someone who will admit to cheating (he felt so bad about it... therefore you know how serious it must have been for him to feel guilty, the chances are however he told you this as part of his emotional abuse, the stuff you don't even recognise right now) and then propose marriage to shut you up.

[waverider]

It is serious if it chews you up.

It is not about trying to work out what is fair and what is not. That leads you to playing the martyr.

It will also be hard to actually know the real truth about any situation, that is the only real truth.

It is about whether you feel secure and trusting or not.

The only way to get past this is to determine exactly how YOU feel about this, and why, then you establish boundaries to protect yourself from emotional harm and be prepared to make hard decisions if those boundaries are not kept. Otherwise you will be endlessly back peddling and constantly suspicious and questioning.

No one can tell you what is right for you, or where your boundaries should lay, only you can do that with open eyes and a sense of objectivity.

[White_Lily]

Thank you Waverider and Christoff522!

The situation has started indeed to chew me up, and I am going to take steps to protect myself emotionally.  Having said that, I am worried about him.  I think I have read a lot about this point here on this forum "the worrying" part.  The nons do almost always feel an obligation to exit the relationship with as much less damage to the partner as possible. S.E.T. was recommend, for example.  How do you balance that?  It is quite a task.  If we are dealing with people who are hurting us and we know that it is not "them" intentionally doing the hurt but their condition, what do you do?  I also cannot tell him that his behaviour is most probably related to his BPD traits.  He has never been formally diagnosed with the condition and I just realized that he probably has it a year ago. There was a time where he was introduced to spiritual concepts, a deeper level of thinking and meditation, and it helped him a lot, and it deepened our relationship, but he then drifted away from that path.  I think it was too much of a commitment for him, and I understand. People who are mentally healthy cannot commit to "living in the present moment" and "know our true nature", etc... .let alone BPDs.

I have asked my bf to set up a day/time to have a discussion about what is going on.  I am going to try my best to deal with the discussion using S.E.T. but with objectivity.  I will keep you posted.

[JohnLove]

My answer to your question. VERY.

An emotional connection in a relationship is almost EVERYTHING. Physical stuff is the rest.

My money is on he cheated. I wish I didn't have to say that to you but I can see a measure of manipulation and convienience.

A BPD sufferer is more than likely to exploit these things.

[Caredverymuch]

Hi all,

I have been struggling for a while with an issue that has affected the relationship with my BPD bf tremendously.

We have been together in a long-distance relationship for over 9 years for professional reasons (it's about 1.5 hours driving distance) so re-locating has been difficult for both of us. The reason the relationship has survived that long, in my opinion, is that we have a deep connection (perhaps spiritually?) and we like to do the same thing at the "daily activity" level.  We spend a lot of time doing things, travelling, camping, cooking, etc... .All this has been wonderful except for one thing: cheating at the emotional level, at least as far as I know! 

Five years ago, my bf started a relationship with someone who lives in his own town.  It lasted for about a month, and according to my b/f he told that person about me, and she refused to continue with the relationship for obvious reasons.  My bf told me about this relationship before he told the other woman as he wanted to come clean with me.  It was hurting him to do such a thing behind my back.  I was devastated, and his reaction to remedy the situation was to propose to me to proof that he loves me and he wants to spend the rest of his life with me (yes, we actually have been engaged for 4 years, but I would like to stick to "bf" for now).

Few months later after that incident, I started to feel that there is something not quite right going on between my bf and his next door married neighbour who is few years older than him. They became friendly and started to exchange texts and emails.  When I asked him what is going on, he replied that they are just friends. To make a long story short, this "friendship" has been going on for over 3 years.  According to my bf, it is still nothing, they make each other laugh, so it is not beyond a fun thing to do.  In my mind and heart, I know this is not right at all, and it is cheating.  Again, he kept assuring me that the relationship is not at the physical level, but it is just to have some fun.  He always assures me that I am the one who he loves, and he would like to live with me when we retire in our mid 50's (we are both in our early 50's) and the work situation will no longer be an issue.

I read some (but few) posts on this forum related to this issue and I understand that people with BPD traits like to have plans to help them regulate their emotions. My bf keep insisting that he does not want us to split up, but I know that being far away it makes all sense why the relationship is convenient for him. I am feeling that these behaviours have been affecting our relationship and the connection we have established. 

I think I know that my bf is actually cheating on me, but I would appreciate your thoughts and experience on this.

Thanks.

White Lilly, I am sorry for your present situation and thankful you are finding support here. What I am about to tell you is the truth from someone who was in the very role you describe this other woman to potentially be.

First, it seems BPDs tend to do very well in long distance r/s bc there is little engulfment. So, if indeed your partner is BPD this may play a role in the longevity of your r/s.  As you will learn, pBPD fear abandonment, real or perceived.  So, when you suggest to your partner that you might even potentially leave, he may then talk of marriage and go to great lengths to pledge his commitment to you. I am not suggesting those sentiments are not real. Your r/s clearly is the "main r/s", the other things you mentioned in your post just seems rather textbook for pBPD.

I was in r/s with a pBPD who told me his marriage was empty, had not been good for a very long time, and that he was working on leaving.  In fact, he did separate for a bit of time but went back.  Despite, the things he told me did not match the things he told his spouse.  I learned this later.

His spouse ( whom he suggested more than once was the issue in their union) also questioned him about his texts and communications with me. I know he told her that we were just friends. A connection, but emotional only.  You see, I believed he was working toward ending his marriage, and we indeed did have a friendship. But it was much more, emotionally. Much, much more. There were boundaries being crossed by a married man. He was telling me things I had no right to know. He was emotionally seducing me and I believed what he told me of his present situation. I believed he was the good guy in the bad marriage. I am sorry I believed that bc I do believe his spouse may have her own issues, but is not a bad person or the reason for the potential issues. pBPD tend to triangulate. I was a part of that triangle.

When push came to shove, after his brief separation from his spouse, he denied a great deal to resume the r/s with her.

I am not suggesting that your situation was mine. I am only offering what I was told being that "friend."  He lied a great deal to his spouse, I learned so much later. He lied to me too. He continues to lie to her.

Whatever you decide, trust your instincts. I ignored mine. And I wish you all the best in whatever route you take.

[maxsterling]

I like waverider's post.  It's time to examine what your limits are as far as appropriateness in a relationship.  Obviously, you are torn up, so your limits have been crossed.  Perhaps a few relevant questions:

- where do you draw the line between a "female friend" and "emotional cheating"?

- Are you okay with him having female friends?  :)o you think it is appropriate for you to have male friends?

- if he had the same kind of close relationship with a male friend, would you consider it emotionally cheating?

I ask these questions because I have had to ask similar of my own relationship, and sometimes I feel I have confusing boundaries in this area.  In my case, I am not getting my emotional needs met by my BPD partner, and I do have to lean on friends or family members (male and female) to get those needs met.  But I never feel those people are emotionally more important than my fiancé - not even close.  But they do fill a role.  And in my case - my fiancé has had sexual relationships with women, too.  So if she were to have an emotionally close relationship with a woman now - would that be emotional cheating?  I dunno.  I really don't know where to draw the line, but I think I would become uncomfortable if someone else (man or woman) become more emotionally close to my fiancé than me.  And I've read where people can emotionally cheat with their own children - when a parent gets his or her emotional needs met by his or her own child while ignoring his or her partner.  

Trust your gut.  If you feel uncomfortable with his other relationships, that feeling won't go away.  The more you bury that feeling, the worse you will feel.

EDIT: I'd like to add after reading the above post, that another place to draw the line is if one of the people in the friendship is wanting more, whether that be your partner or your partner's friend. 

[White_Lily]

Thank you all for your kindness.

A major and fast turning in the situation... .

I had the conversation today with my bf that I previously mentioned.  Long story short, we decided to separate. The situation was brewing for a while, I was not surprised with the decision. It was hurtful, and I tried my best not to cry, and I did not.  He kept all the way blaming himself for not making me happy.  He is under a lot of financial stress as his small business is not making any money for few years now, had some debt, and he still has to pay child support, mortgage, etc... .He has two kids from a previous marriage (18 & 15).

We have a sail boat that we bought together 3 years ago.  He decided he is going to sell house, business and live on boat! Note that the original issue I wanted to discuss with him "other emotional relationships" was kept on the shelf and every time I brought it up he assured me that his decision has nothing to do with anyone.

We did talk that we will do a long trip together when we retire in 3 years (looping between Canada and the US), but he wanted to do it on his own.  I think this is his way of dumping? I don't really know how I feel now.  Maybe I am still in shock, but I know it is going to be hard to heal :'(

[waverider]

Most of what he says is what he feels that moment, making excuses to himself as much to you. I would not take anything as a considered logical reason or plan. This is why you have to be guided by how YOU feel.

When put on the spot pwBPD will tend to blow smokescreens without any substance.

[White_Lily]

Yes, waverider, what you said makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

[JohnLove]

I hear that too. pwBPD blow smokescreens. That is the truth. It is akin to lying. How the hell a non differentiates that?... .I dunno?.

All I know is that it makes things very difficult.

[White_Lily]

It is very difficult to differentiate. My observations from my discussion with my bf was that he was maintaining his calm while making very important life decisions with almost no emotions. I should think that he was going through a lot of pain, but was disguising them by blowing smokescreens. To me, it was the most cruel thing to say.  To him, it was probably a way to protect himself from the emotional pain. Oh my head is spinning.  BTW, we had another discussion (so now we are not going to separate   ).  I had to call him because I was so scared he will take stupid steps and dig himself in a deeper hole. I agreed with him that I will support him with the planning of "selling everything" and live on a boat and be off the grid.  This is the for freedom according to him. I should admit though that his work/financial situation and obligations have been extremely affecting his behaviour lately.  I empathize with him a lot. Middle-aged people should start thinking of retirement and he is struggling with meeting his financial obligations. It must be very difficult for a man to go through financial difficulties like that after having a relatively successful business (and mid-life crisis on top).  Dunno, maybe I am making excuses for him? 

[MaybeSo]

I was so scared he will take stupid steps and dig himself in a deeper hole. I agreed with him that I will support him with the planning of "selling everything" and live on a boat and be off the grid.  This is the for freedom according to him. I should admit though that his work/financial situation and obligations have been extremely affecting his behaviour lately.  I empathize with him a lot. Middle-aged people should start thinking of retirement and he is struggling with meeting his financial obligations. It must be very difficult for a man to go through financial difficulties like that after having a relatively successful business (and mid-life crisis on top).  :)unno, maybe I am making excuses for him?

Your post started off with YOUR legitimate concerns regarding his emotional affairs.

The discussion about it turned into a focus on his financial struggles and there was a break up.

Then, the break up is off and you are going to support him b/c you are so worried about him?

What happened to YOU and YOUR concerns?  Where are YOU in this? What happened to the issue of his emotional affairs?  

Did this just all get swept under the rug?

Be careful…pwBPD tend to have one crises after another, they are very used to being in the one/down, victim role,  financial or otherwise, and often, it’s a convenient if unconscious way to avoid real issues and avoid intimacy and commitment…this kind of stuff can go on for years and years in one form of another.  He is a grown man. If you want to be with him…do so…but don’t do it b/c you are in a rescue role with him…that is going to be a very painful path…don’t go there.  

If you want to stay with him, that is fine, but do it b/c it works for you and you are making a conscious decision based on the reality of the situation…not b/c he needs you or you worry about him financially. And be aware that if he gets attention from other women... that is probably going to continue…so you are signing up for that. It’s not going to just go away…and he has proven himself adept at deflecting the entire topic.   So…is that okay with you?  

You may want to take a very honest inventory and check out if this distancing stuff in some way works for you.…I have had a similar r/s with some very similar issues over the last 7 years in that my partner has had emotional affairs, yes it’s common with BPD b/c they need mirroring etc…and I complained about it for a long long time on this board, I hated it…only to realize much later through therapy and feedback here etc... .that in some way…the distance, and distancing behaviors like emotional affairs and other things too, works for me on some level... .in some way…. b/c I too have my own intimacy issues.   (WOW!)  That doesn’t mean I like or approve of his behavior…I don’t.  And, maybe my intimacy issues don’t show up like his do…mine are harder to see b/c I don’t have affairs or do things like that and I complain about that kind of behavior and do not agree with it etc…and I tend to feel like what I want is a commitment and I talk about it a lot…but alas… the reality is, I have some issue with commitment, too.  Similar to his, even if it looks different. Mine show up by my choosing to be with a person who doesn’t commit; since he doesn’t commit…I don’t have to really commit either.  Complaining about a partner who has intimacy issues… keeps me safe from dealing with my intimacy issues.   If I were comfortable with commitment... .I’d be with someone who CAN and does commit and requires the same from me and doesn’t have emotional affairs, and doesn’t engage in various distancing behaviors like this.  Right?  So, the distance, or distancing behaviors…though I do not like or approve of them, must work for me on some level…b/c... .I am still with this person who has some commitment issues!  So the distance and distancing behavior works for both of us somehow. Or we wouldn’t be together.  His way of creating distance just looks worse b/c he actually gets involved in emotional affairs sometimes etc., my way looks more socially acceptable and fosters more sympathy... .but we both have issues with intimacy and commitment, not just him.  And to his credit, he has gotten better with the emotional affair stuff…but you know…that is who he is…it could happen again!   And I know that.  And I’m choosing to be with him, right now, anyway... .so I’m choosing that.  Right?

We have to go in with eyes wide open about our partners and OURSELVES and make some tuff decisions based on reality.

What do you think you want to do?

[waverider]

It is very difficult to differentiate. My observations from my discussion with my bf was that he was maintaining his calm while making very important life decisions with almost no emotions. I should think that he was going through a lot of pain, but was disguising them by blowing smokescreens. To me, it was the most cruel thing to say.  To him, it was probably a way to protect himself from the emotional pain. Oh my head is spinning.  BTW, we had another discussion (so now we are not going to separate   ).  I had to call him because I was so scared he will take stupid steps and dig himself in a deeper hole. I agreed with him that I will support him with the planning of "selling everything" and live on a boat and be off the grid.  This is the for freedom according to him. I should admit though that his work/financial situation and obligations have been extremely affecting his behaviour lately.  I empathize with him a lot. Middle-aged people should start thinking of retirement and he is struggling with meeting his financial obligations. It must be very difficult for a man to go through financial difficulties like that after having a relatively successful business (and mid-life crisis on top).  Dunno, maybe I am making excuses for him? 

pwBPD can't do grey so there is no what ifs, and maybes, in their plans, they are absolute, until they change of course. Thats why they can appear so cold and calculating at times. Consequences and side issues are not important to them. Also in the the long run the plans dont come to fruition, so the reality is the consequences and side issues aren't important as its all just hypothetical. It is hard not to get dragged into it though, but you must resist the temptation or it causes conflict over non issues.

Changed situations are hard to adapt to. eg once financially comfortable it is hard to accept it is no longer so. This applies to anything, similarly once an athlete it is hard to accept they no long have it. It is all part of delusional thinking, to accept it makes them feel like a failure rather than its the natural ebb and flow of life.

Rather than readjust the tendency is to either deny or run away. It is not just about the issues in front of you it is a behavioral pattern and will repeat over and over.

Issues will come and go, the same coping mechanisms will be applied, you are not going to change this.

It is like a range of mountains not a single one, get over this and there is another. To make any real progress you have to learn to read the path around the mountain contours not over the top of them

What do you want and what can he realistically supply?

How much of his stuff can you shrug off and make non of your concern?

[White_Lily]

Waverider and MaybeSo: 

Thank you so much for your great insights.  You are asking very important and tough questions and I am going to think hard to answer them for myself.  This is indeed contributing to the topic I recently posted regarding a "plan" and moving forward. From what I gather from you, I really cannot have any plans because what I am dealing with is a moving target. Perhaps the "plan" now is to keep asking myself hard questions.

[Caredverymuch]

It is very difficult to differentiate. My observations from my discussion with my bf was that he was maintaining his calm while making very important life decisions with almost no emotions. I should think that he was going through a lot of pain, but was disguising them by blowing smokescreens. To me, it was the most cruel thing to say.  To him, it was probably a way to protect himself from the emotional pain. Oh my head is spinning.  BTW, we had another discussion (so now we are not going to separate   ).  I had to call him because I was so scared he will take stupid steps and dig himself in a deeper hole. I agreed with him that I will support him with the planning of "selling everything" and live on a boat and be off the grid.  This is the for freedom according to him. I should admit though that his work/financial situation and obligations have been extremely affecting his behaviour lately.  I empathize with him a lot. Middle-aged people should start thinking of retirement and he is struggling with meeting his financial obligations. It must be very difficult for a man to go through financial difficulties like that after having a relatively successful business (and mid-life crisis on top).  Dunno, maybe I am making excuses for him? 

pwBPD can't do grey so there is no what ifs, and maybes, in their plans, they are absolute, until they change of course. Thats why they can appear so cold and calculating at times. Consequences and side issues are not important to them. Also in the the long run the plans dont come to fruition, so the reality is the consequences and side issues aren't important as its all just hypothetical. It is hard not to get dragged into it though, but you must resist the temptation or it causes conflict over non issues.

Changed situations are hard to adapt to. eg once financially comfortable it is hard to accept it is no longer so. This applies to anything, similarly once an athlete it is hard to accept they no long have it. It is all part of delusional thinking, to accept it makes them feel like a failure rather than its the natural ebb and flow of life.

Rather than readjust the tendency is to either deny or run away. It is not just about the issues in front of you it is a behavioral pattern and will repeat over and over.

Issues will come and go, the same coping mechanisms will be applied, you are not going to change this.

It is like a range of mountains not a single one, get over this and there is another. To make any real progress you have to learn to read the path around the mountain contours not over the top of them

What do you want and what can he realistically supply?

How much of his stuff can you shrug off and make non of your concern?

Incredibly insightful post.  Thank you

[waverider]

Waverider and MaybeSo: 

Thank you so much for your great insights.  You are asking very important and tough questions and I am going to think hard to answer them for myself.  This is indeed contributing to the topic I recently posted regarding a "plan" and moving forward. From what I gather from you, I really cannot have any plans because what I am dealing with is a moving target. Perhaps the "plan" now is to keep asking myself hard questions.

Your plans have to be more self focused, this may make you feel selfish, and probably accused of it. But it has to be, otherwise you lose control. They must not be tied into solving the issue/drama of the day, they are just side shows.

[White_Lily]

I can see how being self-focused and ignoring the "side shows" will help in detaching emotionally. But isn't it this same attachment that got us here in the first place? Very interesting!

[waverider]

I can see how being self-focused and ignoring the "side shows" will help in detaching emotionally. But isn't it this same attachment that got us here in the first place? Very interesting!

Yep this why learning to deal with BPD means essentially changing you, a loss of innocence if you like. You have to learn to not yearn for things that once attracted you. Understanding why those traits were appealing to you in the first place is probably step 1.

BPD exposes our own frailties

[White_Lily]

pwBPD can't do grey so there is no what ifs, and maybes, in their plans, they are absolute, until they change of course. [/quote]
Has anyone stayed with a BPD partner and he/she has changed? If yes, how and to what degree?  Just to stick to the topic, are BPDs able to stop their cheating behaviours at any level?

[123Phoebe]

Has anyone stayed with a BPD partner and he/she has changed? If yes, how and to what degree?  Just to stick to the topic, are BPDs able to stop their cheating behaviours at any level?

I used to think my guy was cheating because he didn't have time for me on the weekends (making plans and all that), therefore (in my mind), he MUST be cheating.  I could never catch him and am not proud to say that I'd do drive-by's to check up on him

Bottom line, he didn't have time for me on the weekends, I wasn't a priority and I got sick and tired of worrying about the time I was wasting, waiting around for him to make me a priority.  So, I got busy filling up my weekends doing things that were important to me; making myself a priority.

We are now doing wonderful things together on the weekends, making plans and following through   We don't spend every minute together, I wouldn't want to anyway; have my own stuff going on and so does he.

I can pretty much tell you what he's doing right now (after leaving here a while ago), but of course couldn't say with 100% certainty, as anyone could do anything at any time they chose... .

All indications point to he isn't cheating.  My needs are being met in the relationship and believe his are too.

[MaybeSo]

My partner uses the high of pursuit, flirtation, and seduction as a way to regulate a crashing emotional state and feel better... .similar to how an infant depends on the love affair with mother to regulate emotional states. Its in many ways similar to any addiction / dependency and would have to be processed and healed like an addiction if the person wanted to be free if that dependency.  This dependency is on a common type of interaction with people... .it's not a drug or substance... .so it's a tuff one ... .pretty harmless compared to using heroin, but causes problems if the person is trying to pull off having a secure primary relationship while 'using' to feel better. Then it has social impacts that causes problems. it destabizes the primary relationship which increases stress and abandonment fears so they need even more "drug" to manage the disruption... .it's a CF (cluster f-).  Lots of ways to rationalize it, very ingrained, very sticky stuff.

[Caredverymuch]

My partner uses the high of pursuit, flirtation, and seduction as a way to regulate a crashing emotional state and feel better... .similar to how an infant depends on the love affair with mother to regulate emotional states. Its in many ways similar to any addiction / dependency and would have to be processed and healed like an addiction if the person wanted to be free if that dependency.  This dependency is on a common type of interaction with people... .it's not a drug or substance... .so it's a tuff one ... .pretty harmless compared to using heroin, but causes problems if the person is trying to pull off having a secure primary relationship while 'using' to feel better. Then it has social impacts that causes problems. it destabizes the primary relationship which increases stress and abandonment fears so they need even more "drug" to manage the disruption... .it's a CF (cluster f-).  Lots of ways to rationalize it, very ingrained, very sticky stuff.

This is insightful and I have recognized this as well. Indeed, like a regulating emotional state and securing emotional need in most situations yet can very often be misread and capitalized on.

[waverider]

My partner uses the high of pursuit, flirtation, and seduction as a way to regulate a crashing emotional state and feel better... .similar to how an infant depends on the love affair with mother to regulate emotional states. Its in many ways similar to any addiction / dependency and would have to be processed and healed like an addiction if the person wanted to be free if that dependency.  This dependency is on a common type of interaction with people... .it's not a drug or substance... .so it's a tuff one ... .pretty harmless compared to using heroin, but causes problems if the person is trying to pull off having a secure primary relationship while 'using' to feel better. Then it has social impacts that causes problems. it destabizes the primary relationship which increases stress and abandonment fears so they need even more "drug" to manage the disruption... .it's a CF (cluster f-).  Lots of ways to rationalize it, very ingrained, very sticky stuff.

This is insightful and I have recognized this as well. Indeed, like a regulating emotional state and securing emotional need in most situations yet can very often be misread and capitalized on.

The intensity of a RS can be used as an escapism from the real world. It also extracts the other other person from real world influences. This increases the bonding "bubble" with transference of delusions. The more open you are to these delusions then the quicker you are drawn in.

The mechanism is subtle and you end up there without realizing the process is happening.

With cheating it is often just a case of this need being transferred to another source once the primary source is no longer providing whats needed.

[White_Lily]

My partner uses the high of pursuit, flirtation, and seduction as a way to regulate a crashing emotional state and feel better... .similar to how an infant depends on the love affair with mother to regulate emotional states. Its in many ways similar to any addiction / dependency and would have to be processed and healed like an addiction if the person wanted to be free if that dependency.  This dependency is on a common type of interaction with people... .it's not a drug or substance... .so it's a tuff one ... .pretty harmless compared to using heroin, but causes problems if the person is trying to pull off having a secure primary relationship while 'using' to feel better. Then it has social impacts that causes problems. it destabizes the primary relationship which increases stress and abandonment fears so they need even more "drug" to manage the disruption... .it's a CF (cluster f-).  Lots of ways to rationalize it, very ingrained, very sticky stuff.

This is insightful and I have recognized this as well. Indeed, like a regulating emotional state and securing emotional need in most situations yet can very often be misread and capitalized on.

The intensity of a RS can be used as an escapism from the real world. It also extracts the other other person from real world influences. This increases the bonding "bubble" with transference of delusions. The more open you are to these delusions then the quicker you are drawn in.

The mechanism is subtle and you end up there without realizing the process is happening.

With cheating it is often just a case of this need being transferred to another source once the primary source is no longer providing whats needed.

MaybeSo:  this is amazing stuff, many thanks.

Waverider:  I am not clear on your first paragraph.  When you say it extracts the other person from real world influences, do you mean person with BPD? How about the delusions?  BPD too?

It is interesting you say that cheating happens because BPD needs are no longer met through primary source.  We are all here because we love our partners and we want to meet their needs.  At what point BPDs feel they are not getting their need met by us?  Is it because we are doing things wrongly, or dragged with the drama so we seem unavailable emotionally, or is this transfer one of PBD's emotional phases?

[waverider]

Waverider:  I am not clear on your first paragraph.  When you say it extracts the other person from real world influences, do you mean person with BPD? How about the delusions?  BPD too?

It extracts the non from "normality" as they sell their delusions to us and we buy it, as they are nice fantasies. We can take on their beliefs to a degree

It is interesting you say that cheating happens because BPD needs are no longer met through primary source.  We are all here because we love our partners and we want to meet their needs.  At what point BPDs feel they are not getting their need met by us?  Is it because we are doing things wrongly, or dragged with the drama so we seem unavailable emotionally, or is this transfer one of PBD's emotional phases?

We may want to meet their needs, but basic neediness cant be sated. It goes deeper than what we can see, or understand. Eventually the pwBPD may still feel there is something missing and so are tempted by new possibilities for filling them. This is at the core of what prevents continuity in many areas including relationships, workplace, friends, medications.

The grass is always greener and this leads to endless threats to move on and find a quick fix elsewhere. New partner, new job, new wonder pill, live somewhere different. Responsibility for fixing their needs always comes from outside rather than from within. They dont have a great sense of self and so can't even define their own needs, so we have little chance of fully meeting them.

Being aware of the disorder and seeking out help like we are here, helps us to better understand why our attempts at satisfying their needs is often misdirected and hence reduce this potential cycle

[White_Lily]

Are you a psychologist, Waiverider?  Thanks a bunch! Yeah, I see your point.

[Blimblam]

white lilly,

It is possible to maintain a relationship with him.  The thing is I think to really evaluate what you want out of a relationship vs the reality of what someone with BPD is able to provide. I have had to detach from my BPD ex because I expected more from her than what she was capable of.  Had I known her limits early on I would still be in a form of relationship with her but probably a polyamorous one where I didn't invest my full heart and self into. It is very important to realize the reality vs the fantasy as to not get emotionally and spiritually destroyed.  good luck though

[Crumbling]

Most of what he says is what he feels that moment, making excuses to himself as much to you. I would not take anything as a considered logical reason or plan. This is why you have to be guided by how YOU feel.

When put on the spot pwBPD will tend to blow smokescreens without any substance.

This last statement, about smokescreens, you can take to the bank, my dear!  That is as clear to me now as the ring on my finger. 

You are worth being loved wholly, fully and completely.  You deserve to have your needs met, your boundaries respected.  You deserve to be trusted and to trust.  You deserve to receive from a relationship as much as you give.  You deserve truth. 

These are difficult things, perhaps even impossible, for a BPD to give in a relationship.  I'm sorry, but the more I learn the more I feel that this is probably the BPD reality.  Is the drama, confusion, unknowing worth the return?  Is life better with him, or just not as lonely as without him?  Food for thought.

My prayers are with you.