True empathy?

[RuthB]

I am wondering about how BPDs process empathy. On the surface, it seems my mom is sometimes sympathetic with others--she cries and wails when she hears about a tragedy. However, it seems that the drama quickly becomes about her. She will say, "Oh, I feel so awful. I've been hurt all my life and I just can't stand... ." Is this really empathy, or an attention-getting behavior? At other times, she seems totally unfeeling about what another family member has gone through and shrugs it off.

[yogibear60]

Interesting question:  My thought is that your mom uses other people's tragedies as an avenue to direct focus on her.  My mother watches FOX news and CNN and get herself in a horrid state of sadness and anger.  Empathy, not with my mother just a method to force attention on herself... .  She knew from social cues but not from a sense of internal understanding.

[Jema]

Interesting is one way to put it. Fascinating is my take. After many years of observing my uBPDm's dysfunction, I have come to the conclusion that she has serious "identity" (or personal boundary) issues. 

One way I see these manifest is that she seems to view those around her almost as "extensions" of herself. We, her family, are supposed to act and respond in a certain, expected way--enjoy the things she enjoys, perform the expected duties as she sees fit. When this [inevitably] does not occur, she feels out of control, or that others are trying to take control from her.

She seems to keep some kind of mental "scorecard", so that each time we deviate from her expected pattern, we get "virtual demerits". She doesn't want to seem so obvious about this behavior, so the demerits pile up. At some point she cannot contain her displeasure over such "disloyal" actions and her rage comes bursting out.

A recent observation I have made is that her confusion regarding her identity interferes with what one normally thinks of as empathy. In our therapy sessions, she kept accusing me of lacking empathy. The therapist was bemused by this because she, the T, clearly sees me as being empathetic--since I initiated and paid for the sessions. From the T's perspective, I clearly sincerely care that my mother is troubled. Also, it's clear that I feel a strong need to protect my [non] wife and other family members from the extreme behavior.

Thus my mom seems to view that empathy in others means feelings for her own well being, and/or efforts to comply with her "programme".

I know that my mother has little or no empathy, as you or I think of it. She verbally abuses and berates those she deals with at the market, dept. store, bank, etc. when they offer some [often valid] resistance to, or cannot meet, her wishes.

When I have tried to [gently] point out this bullying behavior in her, she usually becomes belligerent. She accuses me of being disloyal, having taken their side, and proceeds to dehumanize and devalue said target. Certainly not my idea of "empathy".

Does anyone else see this in their pwBPD?


Cheers,

Jema

[Linda Maria]

Hi all - this empathy question is a strange one.  Last year, before my uBPDsis really turned on me, we had spent a week together, with my kids, in my late Mum's holiday home in Devon.  She had a really bad flu, so was in bed for 4 days, and I nursed her as best I could, got a doctor into her, got her prescription, kept her topped up with tissues, paracetamol, water, anything she needed etc.  She was not (and never has been) an easy patient.  I also had a lot of stuff to sort out, plus had to keep the kids amused, do the shopping, cooking etc.  No big deal to be honest, just a hectic week.  The morning the doctor came, I had two contractors turn up to quote for work on the house, so it was a couple of hours before I could leave the house to go to the chemist and get her prescription filled.  Anyway, weeks later, when she first got nasty on the phone, she said, out of the blue "When we were in Devon, you took 4 hours to get my prescription!"  This was clearly something at the forefront of her mind, no thank you or thought about the fact that I was rushed off my feet, that it was a miracle that I got a doctor to her, given we weren't registered in that area, that actually I did a lot for her.  All she remembered was that in her mind I had taken 4 hours to get her prescription!  So I think their brains work very differently to nonBPDs.  I have seen my sister be very kind to people sometimes, but there seems to always need to be a payoff, and I used to hear a lot about how much she did for my Mum etc., and I knew from my Mum's side, that it was largely untrue.  Still can't get my head around all of that.  JB

[RuthB]

From your responses, it seems that the supposed empathy/attention getting behavior is a common issue with BPDs. Jema, your comments about the identity issue really struck a chord. My mom cannot understand why HER priorities are not my priorities. And yes, Linda Marie, it is amazing how all the things we do for them get ignored and they focus on one small thing to "prove" they are being neglected. Jema, my mother has accused me several times of "having no feelings--just like your father." I've never been able to get her to a therapist. After all, in her view, she is the persecuted victim. It is everyone else who is at fault for treating her so shabbily. And, "no one can understand what she's been through." It is so sad and frustrating.

[TenaciousMe]

I believe my BPDm is incapable of true empathy. However, she is an excellent performer and knows what it looks like. And she knows how to act to make someone think she cares. There is always a payoff for her, though, because her infantile emotional needs are so great as to be unquenchable. Her acts of kindness are always in service to her persona (upstanding citizen, good mother, martyr, victim) and the narcissistic supply she aims to maintain from everyone around her. Which is a bummer, because if you don't know her well, she really can make you feel loved at moments.

She was so good in fact that she had me convinced until I saw her act out against my three year old daughter. She'd lost control of herself and her true self came bursting out in a very ugly way.

[ssjljllove]

As my mum had BPD I do recognise all this and thought it was attention seeking, threats of suicide all part of it. She took her life when I was 17. I was diagnosed much later and (still don't always understand her actions) I Av a lot of time for ppl but would admit I only have true, deep sympathy for my children.xx

[littlebirdcline]

Jema-

My mother is very similar to what you describe.  The scorecard and virtual demerits is a perfect way to describe how my mother judges us and holds a grudge.  

When it come to empathy, I think she has it under certain circumstances.  She has what I feel to be true empathy, when it is something she considers worthy of being empathetic about.  For example, my brother has had serious health issues his entire life, and much of her life has revolved around caring for him.  When my son has health issues, she is very empathetic, until I don't handle it the way she would.  However, there are many times in my life I have needed empathy, when I was attacked instead.  For example, when I was dumped by a guy I was totally crazy about in grad school, I spend part of the Christmas holidays alone in my apartment throwing myself a pity party.  When she found out, she said, "If I were there right now, I would smack you in the face!" and then berated me for not coming to her house and spending time with her.  Ultimately, I don't think it's conscious manipulation, it's just that she can't feel empathy if it's an emotion she can't understand or it impinges on her at all.

Even now, as I am trying to find a new normal in our relationship after a giant blowup and period of NC/LC, she is feeling sorry for herself, but has no concept of how difficult it is for me.  That she hurt me and I am trying my best.  She thinks she did nothing wrong, so my tears are offensive and painful to her.  I am finding it difficult to feel empathy for her, as she is incapable of giving me empathy in return, or put any effort into it at all.  Now, if there was a crisis, like a health issue with my son, suddenly, she would have nothing but empathy and support, because she can recognize those emotions.  

[Woolspinner2000]

I can so relate to this whole topic!  My uBPD mom also demanded empathy, had WAY more than enough of it for hurting people, yet struggled to be genuine with her children or it went towards control if she did offer so called empathy for any of us. Her empathy for one of us meant that she was stepping into our shoes and filling them for us rather than walking alongside of us in support. Even as you all have hinted, to not 'allow' her to be empathetic or to show empathy towards us was to invite her rage and the thought that we knew more than her, a 'rusty old nurse' and we'd never hear the end of it.

Here's an example of how she was empathetic towards her son-in-law (my husband). She would tell him in front of me that since she never had support from her m-i-l, she determined that she would always support her son-in-law 110%. That comment has always hurt me, for I understood that she would support him more than me. Ah, such empathy!

Woolspinner

[Panda39]

I have seen my sister be very kind to people sometimes, but there seems to always need to be a payoff... .

I have seen this with my SO's uBPDex as well.  She will do something very nice for someone but she will expect something in return later on down the line... .remember the time I did something nice for you?  Well now you owe me and will do what I ask you to do.  Fake empathy and concern followed up with a guilt chaser.  Everything nice comes with a spider web of strings attached.  I have not ever seen unselfish empathy from her. 

[beatup]

My uBPDsis has shown her lack of empathy/sympathy. She would show empathy only briefly at the beginning of one of my life's traumas ie. loss of mother, divorce... .only to pick a fight with me which would result in NC. I didn't know about BPD and I just thought that she knew I would not be 100% available to her as I was grieving so she didn't want me at all. I hadn't thought very much about the lack of empathy but I see now that is also part of the package. She was not going to hold my hand through any rough spots for any lengthy spell of time.

[HappyChappy]

Have to say the fact that BPD can fake love and empathy has always been the hardest part to except. Probably because we so want our nearest and dearest to care (show empathy) or love us. But the theory states, in order to be diagnosed with NPD love and empathy are missing. Or at least , they are not as we know it. So this thread is evidencing the lack of empathy, but I note in all I’ve read on this forum, people often insist there is love. Now is that because we so desperately want it to be, or is that because the individuals in question aren’t fully fledged BPD ? Doesn’t true love embody caring from someone else, i.e. empathy is required ?

I have a sis who will admit her uBPD mom fits almost all the criteria for a BPD, but she isn’t because there must be love there. Her argument is simply, there must be - you can't evidence love. I can give her 100’s of examples of where our uBPD displayed hate and resentment, but not one of love. Our uBPD would say the words, but not one action that could be irrefutably a display of love. So is this thread also evidencing a lack of love, as we know it ?  

[sparrowfarfrom home]

virtual demerits-YES!

Every yr, several times, my uBPD mom who is 86 comes 80 miles to my place so my uBPD sister has some time to herself as she lives with mom and is the main caregiver. Realize that neither speaks to me but expects this arrangement without question.

2 days before mom was supposed to come, my DIL (she and I were very, very close ) unexpectedly had a breakdown, left my son and he was totally bereft. I called and asked if i could come the next day. "of course" they said. "so sorry , so terrible, so sad bla bla bla etcetc"

I was unable to sleep , felt like a hole had been shot thru my heart and asked on the phone the next morning if we could maybe do it the next day. I had completely taken off work for the 2 weeks, set my home office up as a bedroom etcetc so I wasnt trying to get out of it... .I hear my sister RAGING in the background , " JUST FORGET IT-FORGET THE WHOLE THING!"

Mother said on phone: "

It took 15 minutes of cajoling and placating so as to keep the plan intact. mom came down.

the entire 2 weeks I was walking in circles due to being in shock, trying to help my son who became deeply depressed and overwrought, and crying a lot. I was so My mother took no notice.

driving her back I got rear ended , had to stop for insurance matters, was late meeting my sister, and mom makes some crazy remark about the weeds in her grass at home. I lose it finally, tell her to stop it and  be quiet"

she gets home, tells my sister, decide i need therapy and stop speaking to me unless I go to where they live to have family therapy with someone they will choose.

am leaving many details out here--but... .

I related the story to a dear friend and she said: " wow, after what happened to you , you would think they would have u in a little protective bubble so they could take care of you"

I said, "nope, that's not how it works. At most you might get a week or so -then it's over and it is all about them again"

I never got empathy from them for any tragedy in my life and I have had a few.

[sparrowfarfrom home]

part of my post didn't get on----

Mother said:  " YOU

[sparrowfarfrom home]

well this is embarrasing!

Mother said:  " You are RUINING her vacation!"