family dynamics growing up

[gtrhr]

So, in therapy and in the literature on BPD, once you have a good understanding of why the abusive partner is doing what they do, the spotlight ultimately gets pointed back to you and why you stay in the relationship with someone like that.  What is it about your past that causes you to stick around when a healthy, confident person would have not gotten emotionally involved.

For me I think a lot of it has to do with my mother and her own unwillingness to allow me to grow up, once I reached the age where I started maturing quickly, around twelve, and she just could not stop seeing me as her baby anymore.  Understandable in some sense, but there were also deeper issues.  She was overprotective.  She couldn't be logical about certain things which led to some really bad arguments.  Even I could see this in her interactions with my father or doing things that could upset other family members.  Before I was born, both my brothers are roughly ten years older than me, apparently there was a lot of drama in the house.  My mom would accuse my dad of cheating, and she was extremely jealous, even if a movie was on TV she would furiously turn it off because of the beautiful actress.  I didn't see a lot of this firsthand but my dad has since shared stories with me.  Later on in fact my father did leave her for a time, but eventually returned to the marriage.  According to him all of the hostility drove him away.  The other thing about this story is that my grandmother was a diagnosed schizophrenic, so my mom was raised in a very volatile environment herself.  I actually witnessed at least one argument between my grandparents, and it was rough.  And I knew my grandmother growing up and, yes she had lots of odd behaviors and was clearly in her own little world.  When I was very young even my uncle committed suicide eventually due to emotional issues of his own.  So, sadly now, later in life my mom is suffering from dementia - mostly she is delusional and paranoid.  I've been to counseling with her to try to get some help but she says it's all about my dad and she refuses to see someone to get prescribed any medication.  Her counselor believes it would really help her a lot but she could be quite combative and illogical about even the hint of taking medicine.  You cannot believe how agitated she gets.  It's like an extremely amplified version of the behavior I saw in her when I was growing up.  With her, I can still sometimes get drawn into a disagreement but I find it less and less so with age.  Well, I would say in some ways my mom has exhibited borderline behavior and her mental health has not contributed to a really healthy situation for my brothers and I.  One brother has never really had anyone in his life.  And he's not a bad looking dude.  The other is an alcoholic.  And now with mom's mental illness she is ruining my dads life.  We're all subject to outrageous accusations now as she's progressively gotten worse.  But we all have choices and at least for my own sake I really stayed away from her for a lot of years because of the issues when I was a young adult.  I'm kind of incredulous at how this has all played out for everyone in my family.

Well, I would say that a lot of me trying to cope with my exBPDgf has a lot to do with how I used to feel obligated to try and work things out and take a logical approach with my mom.  Wanting validation and acknowledgment of my ideas or whatever.  The crazy responses would lock me in to a negotiation.  The other aspect is my exBPDgf really had a lot of great characteristics and she was gorgeous and passionate.  And she could be quite logical at times, but she'd turn that on and off to suit herself.  Even with all of her assets though, her condition should not have been overlooked and I turned a blind eye to many of the red flags.

Well I feel the next step for me is less about learning how to cope with BPD and how to really be more assertive and understanding what I want in a relationship and what behaviors I won't subject myself to again.  I'm trying to get a handle on my past family dynamic and why I would stay with someone who ultimately didn't treat me that well, but made me feel so many intense feelings and passion.

[LettingGo14]

Thank you for sharing your perspective.  You've done a lot of hard work assessing Family of Origin ("FOO".  It is hard to do, and I commend you.

One lesson I learned is to start with kindness for yourself as well.  It's so easy to think of ourselves as in constant need of self-improvement.   But, I wrote this quote on a card to remind myself:

"Our true nature is like a precious jewel: although it may be temporarily buried in mud, it remains completely brilliant and unaffected. We simply have to uncover it." -- Pema Chodron

Keep posting.  Very insightful.

[Ihope2]

It is really healing when one begins to unravel the old family dynamics and our own personal dynamics that we learned in our family of origin.

So many of us, who spend years of our life devoted to toxic people seem to have been caught up in trauma bonds, based on our earliest learnings in our family of origin.

I too have had this propensity to attach very strongly to partners who are unable to conduct a healthy, equal relationship with me.  I have exposed myself to being taken advantage of, manipulated and gaslighted and made to feel that I am the flawed one in the relationship.  Each time a relationship ended, I felt more drained than before.

I did wonder why I seem to attract such damaged partners into my life and why I remain so loyal to them for years on end, before it just all gets too much for me, I burn out, and the relationship breaks up.

My relationship with my mother has been one based on "trauma bonding" and remaining loyal in the face of betrayal.  I recommend Patrick Carnes' book on Betrayal Bonds, it has brought a lot of my dynamics into stark relief for me, I understand it all a lot better now, at the age of 45!  I have been hooked into a trauma bond type of relationship with my mother all these years, and I am beginning to see that she probably has Dependent Personality traits.  When I think of my life, it all seems to have revolved around my mother and me worrying about her, wondering if she will be ok.  I have shed anguished tears over her in my life and there have been times I thought she would not make it, either emotionally (when she went through another terrible divorce) or physically (she has had cancer, and more than a decade ago she was diagnosed with HIV and was on death's door).  My mother seems to have courted drama, upheavel and disaster her whole life, whilst merging her identity with any strong, overpowering and bombastic man that has happened on her path.  She has never really ever stood on her own two feet and she has never really developed her own sense of self.  She always references herself in relation to the man in her life.

Blessings, Gtrhr and much strength to you as you make sense of your past family dynamics and how it has affected you in your adult life.

[gtrhr]

Sometimes I'm really blown away by the feedback I receive on the boards - in a a good way of course - and people sharing their own stories.  I really appreciate you reading and sharing.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey gtrhr, I agree that that an important step is figuring out what you want in a relationship, including what you find unacceptable.  In my case, I ignored a lot of feelings in a 16-year marriage to a pwBPD.  I had to, in order to stay in the marriage.  But I don't view it as a healthy thing when one is constantly repressing and ignoring feelings due to the drama and FOG of living with a pwBPD.  Now I strive to be authentic, which might be a good goal for you, too. 

Lucky Jim

[Lucky Jim]

Hey gtrhr, I agree that that an important step is figuring out what you want in a relationship, including what you find unacceptable.  In my case, I ignored a lot of feelings in a 16-year marriage to a pwBPD.  I had to, in order to stay in the marriage.  But I don't view it as a healthy thing when one is constantly repressing and ignoring feelings due to the drama and FOG of living with a pwBPD.  Now I strive to be authentic, which might be a good goal for you, too. 

Lucky Jim

[gtrhr]

Hi LuckyJim,

I agree with you.  I have done some dating since being with the pwBPD and found it easier to set boundaries and decide up front what I wanted.  I guess I've figured at least some things!

I dated a girl for a little while and we spent a weekend together on a trip which was really more about getting to know each other and not that romantic.  And that was actually fine.  It was her idea to go and I really appreciated the offer.  You know in post pwBPD world gestures like that really mean a lot!  I really respected her a lot for wanting to move slowly and to be honest, I felt she was teaching me to move slowly.  I wish I had her in the early days of dating - she would have made the perfect guide!

It started off with great conversation especially the drive and then we had a good time.  Later we talked some about our past and she had some things to say about how her ex husband had treated her.  He had said some really mean things to her and I could express empathy and understanding to her.  It sounded like mean things a pwBPD might say.  I tried to share a little bit about my past situation with the pwBPD, who it seemed behaved in some similar ways, saying the mean things.  You know I didn't talk about BPD, just sharing a similar situation.  Her inclination was to explain those behaviors away and take the "woman's side" which was unfortunate because I'm not really the type to look at this great divide between men and women.  Prior to that there were other red flags, like clearly she was upset with me about something and it wasn't obvious why.  I am certain the old me would have weebled and wobbled but not fallen down.  I would have pursued her regardless of those feelings.

But I took a look at it and could much more easily determine that being dismissed wasn't something I wanted, and I need to feel better in the relationship.  I didn't call her back and a few weeks later she wanted to know what happened.  We met and talked and I think I respected her and myself more for that conversation we had later.  We dated more, she was really busy, there was maybe one more misunderstanding about a date that she kind of just blew-off.

Well one of the crazy things about this new dynamic with a fellow non, is she wanted me to pursue her more strongly than I was pursuing, and I was not willing to compromise myself and get hurt like I had before.  What a delicate balance. To be honest I think my lack of pursuit is why I did not drive her away.  She was really pretty and I'm confident guys called her back!

She offered to date me exclusively at a certain point which I thought was really nice, but I had already decided for myself I would not pursue the relationship just based on it not really going anywhere and I had reached the point of giving up.

All of that was around a year ago.  And to be quite honest, during this whole time I could never get my xBPDgf out of my heart.  I am still finding it difficult in fact.  It seems easy to put boundaries in place for someone new.  But it seems almost impossible to put them in place for the pwBPD, short of going the route of No Contact.

Thanks for the reply!

[Aussie JJ]

Hmmm,

I did this early on where I tried to categorize everyone in my life.  Last 2 days I have revisited it and really amazed myself.  I think I have been more honest with MY issues than ever before. 

Early on I was certain that my mum was BPD, she isn't, I figured out today she has some serious narc in her, verging on NPD, in situations where close family are present she really comes out, she hasn't talked to her mum or either sister in 8 years?  Her reason, one sister is HPD (she is so HPD its not funny) her mum (NPD) and the other one 'their is just something wrong with her'.  Exploring your FOO issues is empowering but very DIFFICULT.  To step back and be objective and not say "they are perfectly normal" is really hard as you have to challenge everything you grew up with.  A lot of my stuff stems from my mother, I don't have a healthy relationship with her, my mother seriously lacks empathy.  I remember her yelling at me for so many things and me always suppressing it, backing down, I have memories of being yelled at for not getting up and ready for school on time, constantly.  Reading late into the night to stay awake as it was peaceful.  Being backed into a corner with her calling me a lazy prick.  My mum has called me a prick, ass and when she wants to stop me in my tracks a psychopath.  I am starting to remember all of these feelings and relate them to experiences, 1 example is I used to actually hide in my wardrobe when she was on a role and then I got yelled at for breaking the floor in the wardrobe.  Like, wtf.  I used this same method to cope with BPD exGF but I would hide in the car and get some sleep in the park down the road before coming home.  I cant explain it but get some peace and quite. 

Point is for 5 months I have doubted my mother and then gone, no she is OK, just strong unhealthy strong boundary's.  All the time calling me abusive when I'm opening up and breaking contact for it to return on her terms with me apologising.  Today, I told her I respected her view however I couldn't agree with her that my ex was ALL BAD.  I got told I was being abusive and asked to stop using that psycho bable on her.  I realised she has devalued my psychologist before just like my exBPDgf has and again she did it today when I was upholding my values. 

Well, my father, he is co-dependant... .If not co-dependant their relationship has developed into a co-dependant relationship, goes to do something, my mum scowls and he whimpers, backs down and backs away, saying sorry sorry as walking off to do her bidding.  He eats to compensate and when stressed because I'm standing up to my mother he gets angry because the dynamic changes and I'm causing the conflict so goes off at me and tells me he cant eat properly, he's so stressed he has lost his appetite.  He regulates with food.  I have noticed I do the same thing.  My father is so passive with communication its not funny, I am the same but I do have an aggressive streak, when I'm backed into the corner with no where left to run I explode.  My BPD picked up on this and did it constantly. 

Thing is I don't know how to relate to healthy people, I have cut 2 friends out of my life as well, both BPD and another that is NPD (100 % NPD), so that's 3 I have cut out.  I am not healthy myself in my interpersonal relationships.  I don't bust boundary's but I have none for people to bust themselves, I am an open book and accept what I'm told verbatim.  I get trampled on constantly. 

Now I'm being made to feel like ___ by my mother for standing up for myself, all I said was my son's mother isn't all bad.  Saying that is just as bad as her, black and white thinking.  BAM, I get prosecuted. 

This I have all sort of joined the dots in the last few days.  Accepted it more than I used to?  Really this is doing my head in, this dysfunction is normal to me. 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey gtrhr, I suggest you let your gut be your guide.  There's no rule about when or who you have to call back.  Pay attention to the small details, the little things you like or find interesting about someone or something.  After you figure out what you find engaging about a person or activity, then try to pursue it more deeply to see what it is that you connect with.  Think you're on the right path . . .

LuckyJim

[gtrhr]

AussieJJ, it sounds like a lot to deal with.  Not being able to get validation from the people that should be closest to us and offer the most understanding is a difficult.  One thing that really stood out to me in your post was the usage of vulgarity and name calling against you by a family member.  Verbal abuse can really take it's toll on you emotionally.  How does your therapist help you on those issues I wonder?  :)o they try and make you understand, it's not you, it's her?

In my FOO we really did not have that dynamic but I have witnessed verbal abuse by my xBPDgf on her daughter.  Not the cursing, but more like belittling her.  Some of her responses remind me a lot of what you said.  She escaped to her room to read a lot, and sometimes really late at night.  Complained about not feeling loved.  She herself started becoming way too emotional for a young girl - showing out, crying and really unpredictable.  Hard to say how much of that is genetics versus the way her mother treated her.  Either way, it was clear from whom she got those behaviors.

As I'm sitting here I actually just recalled something I don't think about too often which is my brothers and my dad giving me a really hard time about my weight when I was a little kid to the point of me actually just leaving the dinner table so angry and upset storming off to my room crying by something my dad said.  Well he did come and talk to me to apologize and try and smooth things over.  But I remember putting up with that kind of nonsense for a while until I just said ENOUGH.  You know our families should be nurturing us and building our self esteem and I remember some moments like these sometimes where that esteem gets torn down, and you just think, "Why?"  What the f was the point of an adult treating a child like that?

I'm in my 40s now and with my mother's health problems she's said some absolutely awful things.  Cursing etc.

[maternal]

I had everything I needed growing up.  Parents never divorced, always enough to eat, a roof over my head, plenty more material things than I ever needed.  On the outside, everything was perfect about my upbringing.

Yet, what was missing was emotional support and loving care.  Not that my mom didn't and still doesn't love me.  Not at all.  She's an exceedingly emotionally withdrawn and socially uncomfortable person.   She's just a very emotionally distant and was neglectful to me when I needed it most.  She did the best with what she had, and I don't judge her or condemn her for it... .she certainly must have gotten it from her own upbringing.

My dad was far more emotionally available than my mom, but he worked a lot while she stayed home with me until I was old enough to go to school.  It is those years that seem to be most important to a person's emotional well-being, and it is those years that I learned to not expect such things from folks... .including myself.  So here came my ex... .offering up all this wonderful, loving, emotion-filled amazingness... .and it was so easy for me to fall for it.

In reality, he isn't much different than my mom in the emotional unavailability department.  She, of course, doesn't resort to cruel, crazy-making survival tactics to avoid love, but the base lack of emotional availability was definitely there.   

[Aussie JJ]

I'm actually considering getting a second P just to work on the FOO stuff.  My exBPD knows about my current P and I'm not going to change him he is fantastic, thing is I don't want it coming out in court that I think my mother has NPD.  Amazing how we protect them so much even when we start to see the dysfunctional dynamic for what it is. 

I have basically told him she has very strong boundarys.  Blah blah, I am a bit afraid to go into all of her behaviours with him.  Again do t want that one coming out in court... .  grrrr

Why do we protect these people.   

[gtrhr]

I had everything I needed growing up.  Parents never divorced, always enough to eat, a roof over my head

Likewise, my parents took good care of me, cared about me, gave me the assistance I needed when going to college.  And they did even more for me during college. So, I feel indebted to them for all of that and have gladly helped them out with whatever they've needed.  And trust me I had at least one good friend whose home life was extremely chaotic and I could tell the difference and felt very fortunate by comparison.

Still I have to look at my own circumstance to try and understand what it was that was missing that allowed me to get locked into an impossible situation with a pwBPD.  I feel they were locked in a loveless marriage because they had kids and they spent a lot of years kind of mired in indecision.  Basically just making it work because that was the right thing to do.  I really do think they did the best they could given the times, their income, their own upbringing, work responsibilities etc.

[Boss302]

I think for me, it was about modelling my father's behaviors. He, too, had a seriously ill wife on his hands, but in my mom's case, it was alcoholism, not a mental disorder. He stood by her through until he couldn't anymore, and then after he threatened to leave, she decided to get sober (which she did, and she's been sober for 36 years now). Dad was an honorable man, and I admired him greatly for that. I inherited his sense of duty and loyalty. And he supported ME through all this - he gave me tens of thousands of dollars to bail her out from her various issues.

So, when my BPDx began to fall apart (about 12 years ago), I stuck with her too - through financial problems, mental misdiagnoses, verbal abuse, even criminal charges. And through it all, I think I was sticking around because that's what Dad did. The big difference, of course, is that alcoholism is a VERY different problem than BPD - once the drinker stops drinking, the problems become easier to deal with sometimes rather quickly. But BPD takes a LONG time to get better with - if the sufferer decides to get better at all.

And while alcoholics can certainly be manipulative, BPDs are pretty much ALL manipulative, and they're damn good at it. They know exactly what buttons to push on you. My BPDx certainly did.

In the end, I did what my dad did - threatened to leave unless changes happened. And no changes happened. In fact, the issues became far more intense - BPDx began to verbally abuse my oldest daughter, and it was at this point that I decided to end the marriage and leave.

Lesson? Sometimes doing the decent, honorable thing comes at a horrible price. Still, looking back, I can say I did my best.

[Lucky Jim]

Well said, Boss302.  The price is high for loyalty in a marriage to a pwBPD.  My Ex was BPD and alcoholic, a common dynamic.  One day my T said, ":)o you think you've tried everything?"  I replied, "Yes."  She said, "I think so, too," which I found quite telling, coming from my T.  Agree, those w/BPD are experts at manipulation so it takes a while (years in my case) to see through the FOG.  Lucky Jim

[Boss302]

One day my T said, ":)o you think you've tried everything?"  I replied, "Yes."  She said, "I think so, too," which I found quite telling, coming from my T. 

Yep! I file this under "Great Moments in BPD Co-Dependence"... .that moment you figure out the only thing left to save is yourself. 

[gtrhr]

I think for me, it was about modelling my father's behaviors.

I can say that my father's loyalty, and his seemingly passive nature have a lot to do with me staying with her much longer than she deserved, through some impossible circumstances.  We were never married, but I come from the school of trying to be rational and work through problems.  She never was interested in building a really solid foundation with me.  Just expected me to sort of show up and be her rock.  Ready to take the abuse, or the love and accept whatever mood she happened to be in that minute of the day.

My xBPDgf is very high functioning.  She and I both have good careers although mine has felt in a tailspin since being with her.  Neither of us drink or do drugs.  Her father has real psychological issues and I think she really inherited some of his "crazy".  But some of it is her plainly and simply choosing to be mean and disrespectful to me.  Clearly when she can put on a front and be nice to friends and people in public she could choose to do the same for me.  So I really held her accountable for her behaviors and that is what pushed us to break up.  She drove me away and I told her it was her doing so, although that is something she could never take responsibility for.

I really realize though that my vulnerabilities to her are things that I actively have needed to work on for some time.  I'm really trying to get a handle on those things and it's helping to improve my life, without going into too much detail on here. 

[gtrhr]

I think you guys did a good job trying to do all you could but having a tipping point where you realize the other person has to show some progress and you cannot be the only one to give endlessly.  It takes courage to walk away from the situation.