I'm trying to operate a business with a BPD mom

[CL]

Can anybody make any sense of this?

Basically, I'm dealing with and trying to operate a business with a BPD mom for the past 10 months.  Yes, it's been rough! So rough that I ended up seeing a therapist for myself because I couldn't deal with the drama anymore.  That's when I learned about BPD and that mom sounded like she had it.  

The good news is that she agreed to go to therapy with me "to work on our communication" and while in there she actually agreed to go to her own private sessions.  Yay!

So we've been going separately, only one other joint session, for a few months now and I didn't see much difference until this week when BAM!  She did a 180 in one minute. It's been 8 days now and I'm still reeling from the shock.  

It was right on the heels of horrible, god-awful behavior.  Just brutal rages up until Wednesday of last week, and then on Thurday a totally and completely different person walked in and is still here.  A pleasant, friendly, NON-REACTIVE, rational person.  I cannot stress enough what a gigantic flipparoo this was.  And so sudden!  It's just jolting as hell.  

At first I thought it was a game, but she kept up with it so I'm trying to adjust and match her but it's just so damn weird.   It's like all of a sudden the dog doesn't bite.

Today we had an incident (caused by her and that completely pissed me off, justifiably I think but anyway... .) and when I confronted her with it she just stood there like Ghandi and said "see, you are getting mad at me, but I'm not getting mad at all". what the heck?

I know this therapist is good, but I don't think she's Jesus Christ himself so I was wondering, does anybody have any experience with this 180 flip?  In my last session my therapist told me that my mom was "severely BPD" so I doubt she's cured already I am just so confused right now.

She seems to be completely sincere, and it's really making me feel like I'm the crazy one.  Especially after today when I got heated and she just stood there like a saint.  I do think she is trying because she is talking to me in therapy-speak now, and that is for sure a newly acquired language.

Maybe something clicked with her? I have never in my 39 years seen my mom act like this.  It's nice, and a huge relief, but like I said... .its freaking me out big time.  

[Louise7777]

Hi CL!

Im sorry for your situation. I have uBPD relatives and lately it seems the more I look around, the more I see BPDs... .WOW!

Not sure I will help you or scare you more. I read a post on narcissists (or abusers in general) and therapy. The article was about couples, but I guess it applies here somehow. They said to be very careful, cause therapy doesnt always help, it may be used against you.

Im guessing, from the info provided that your mom is learning techniques on how to have her way with you. Shes not there to improve herself and to feel better. Thats my take and I may be completelly off.

BPDs and NPDs are not easy patients. They usually go to a T or P cause somebody drags them or threatens with divorce, eviction or whatever. Its a way for them to say "see, I did what you wanted and you are not happy, Im the victim here!". Even when they go on their own, the effects of therapy dont appear fast, its a very log process (so I have read).

My 2 uBPD relatives have been on therapy. One gave up right away cause the T didnt say she was right and her husband was to blame. The other just manipulated the T and it developed into a sick friendship. Then it ended, for reasons I dont know (she never told me she was in T, she was too proud for that).

I may be completely wrong, but keep an open mind.

[pessim-optimist]

Hello CL!



You are certainly in a difficult position trying to run a business w/your mom who you suspect to be BPD.

I am glad you have found us, and I am glad you have a knowledgeable therapist to guide you through the process of dealing w/your mom.

I have seen these kinds of sudden "changes" with my step-daughter; usually after a major confrontation and a possibility of loosing our help (my husband and I were helping her with her kids several times while her husband was deployed overseas). The improvement of her behavior would last for while, which was a relief, but little by little the old patterns slowly crept in and got worse. Furthermore, the times between the extreme "blowups" got shorter and shorter.

So, while you have a chance to get a bit of a break now, you also have a great opportunity to read up on BPD and educate yourself as best as you can on the disorder and how best to deal with your mom.

This site is full of resources on the topic, these might be good starting points for you:

What is BPD (48 minute video)

Tools to Reduce Conflict with a person suffering from BPD (3 minute instructional video)

Validation - Encouraging Peace in a BPD Family (52 minute video)

Also, if you are a book person, I would recommend getting the The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder it's a good starter book that will explain a lot of what's happening and also what you can do about it.

It's going to be a learning process, and some of the information takes time to absorb, but at least it will give you an idea of what you are dealing with for right now, and with time, your situation might improve significantly... .

Long term - is there a possibility for you to run the business by yourself?

Let us know how we can support you, ok? (the kinds of problems you deal with or questions you might have as they arise).

[Ziggiddy]

Hi CL

It is a real unbalancer to experience this kind of behaviour. I can understand your distress. On the one hand you want to be positive that she is doing something to help both herself and her r/ship with you but on the other hand the results can seem far from trustworthy.

Obviously no one really knows what's going on inside her head but her (and maybe not even fully) but I tend to agree that caution is useful particularly at the start.

I have found my uBPDm will agree to any number of things that I might want but I can't always trust her motive. it can be attention seeking or it can be for a desire to 'look good' or even a parental throwback of being 'a good girl' The proof is in the pudding.

Louise makes some interesting points regarding your mother's motives. My closest friend worked in a psychiatrist's office for 8 years and said the success rate was very very low as they have a tendency to be triggered by making progress - this leads to the idea that the T will abandon them if they recover. It is incredibly insidious.

The good news is that if your mother is truly committed and learns to 'hold' the work there is every chance that her behaviour could improve. It is worth being cautious though. As has been said, sometimes they just want another 'in' with you and can use what they learn in a destructive way depending on their state of mind. It takes time to see real change that is consistent. You are right to be circumspect. It is unlikely that it just 'clicks' There are core issues that need to be identified and recast. Your mother needs to learn how to reparent herself in positive nurturing ways and that is a very complex thing.

Just my opinion of course!

Ziggiddy

[CL]

Yeah, you guys may be exactly right, unfortunately. 

I'm noticing that since "the turn" she's trying to take control of everything but she's doing it in a much more pleasant way, so it's harder to call her on it. 

It's extremely hard to deal with.  I disagree with something she says or does, or how she treats an employee (not respectfully at all), or I don't want to go along with one of the 25 changes she's tried to inact since the switcheroo,  and it gets turned on me but with this new, sickly sweet manner. 

To be honest, this may be worse than the unstable, inconsistent, out-of-control rager. 

I'm at a loss with this one.  But like Ziggiddy said, I want to be positive if she's actually trying for betterment, but would that coincide with a control grab?  Probably not, but I don't know.  It's been a particularly frustrating day because I've had to take off the rose-coloreds and look at what might actually be going on. If it's trickery, I just really didn't think she would have the sustainability that she's showing right now. It's highly unusual for her.  This is day 9.

[pessim-optimist]

Hello again CL,

Controlling behaviors (whether done sweetly or aggressively) are fairly typical. They stem from their fears and insecurity. They hope that if they can control their environment, things will be more predictable and more stable and less out of control.

Even if she is serious about therapy, that usually takes a long time. In the meantime, she will most likely continue to be predictably unpredictable, and you will have a need to deal with her behaviors.

You cannot change or control someone else. However, what you can control and change is - yourself. If you change your side of the relationship, the dynamic of the whole relationship is likely to change because your mom will need to adjust to the changes.

One of the first points that I have read about and noticed in my situation was that my relationship was being literally driven by the disorder and I was only reacting to the behaviors and crises of the day.

The goal became to start acting as a free agent in the relationship as opposed to reacting as a hostage in it. (acting versus reacting).

How does that sound?

[CL]

Thanks, pessim-optimism.  It's sounds good and I agree with you.

In fact, what actually drove me to therapy in the first place was knowing that I couldn't change the dysfunctional behavior, so I went to learn better coping skills to deal with it without losing myself.  It was starting to eat me up.  She was just losing it over nothing and yelling at me in front of the employees, crazy stuff, it was just a bad time. 

My personal relationship with her isn't my biggest problem right now although it has suffered  lately and it's going to be tough for it to recover. I do have boundaries that I can keep.  I was LC for 20 years, living in different cities even, it's only been recently that I moved back to help with the business thinking that I was stong enough to deal with whatever dysfunction occurred. 

I didn't know until very recently that we are actually dealing with a real mental illness.

This business was in major trouble.  I made the decision to come here to help out and I actually got it to where it was running smoothly which is why it is so frustrating for me to have her now trying change and control things with this new-found, out-of-the-blue personality. 

Because I do have boundaries as far as what I will tolerate from her- I'm the just walk away type-the rages were escalating but weren't really getting her anywhere with me.  Then we ended up in therapy together.  And now the more I think about it she may just be trying out a new tactic.  Playing a role.  I do have a hard time believing she could keep it up for 9 whole days though.  Maybe it's real, I'm confused by it.

The flipparoo happened at the same time as she decided to change the dynamics by getting rid of my office assistant and taking over that role herself.  She is still the owner and boss after all, so unfortunately she can do that.  So now she is more involved again, and really trying to get control.  It seems clear to me now, especially after having to gather my thoughts to post here and then reading all of your replies and thoughts.

It's seems obvious what's going on when I can step back... .but I still have that part of me that's hoping she's just getting better and I'm reading too much into it. 

When she's not making me mad, I feel tremendously sorry for her.  BPD is rough.  I probably wouldn't have come back here if I had known, and had had a clue just how rough it really is. 

God I hope she never finds this forum and never reads these posts!  But I need to vent and this is really helping a lot. 

[pessim-optimist]

Having a therapist now and having been fairly LC in the past makes it easier for you to deal with the situation with a good dose of objectivity.

I didn't know until very recently that we are actually dealing with a real mental illness.

It's seems obvious what's going on when I can step back... .but I still have that part of me that's hoping she's just getting better and I'm reading too much into it.

And now the more I think about it she may just be trying out a new tactic.  Playing a role.  I do have a hard time believing she could keep it up for 9 whole days though.  Maybe it's real, I'm confused by it.

Looking at BPD from the outside can be very confusing, and can cause you to second-guess yourself quite a bit.

Trust the insights you have gained when you have stepped back and had a clear picture. Don't get fooled by the day-to-day changes or appearance of normalcy.

This business was in major trouble.  I made the decision to come here to help out and I actually got it to where it was running smoothly which is why it is so frustrating for me to have her now trying change and control things with this new-found, out-of-the-blue personality. 

So now she is more involved again, and really trying to get control.  It seems clear to me now

That's very possibly what's happening. It's sad to think that so much of your work might eventually go to waste again... .

That's where you will see if/what lasting influence you can/cannot have and make your long-term decisions based on that.

When she's not making me mad, I feel tremendously sorry for her.  BPD is rough.  I probably wouldn't have come back here if I had known, and had had a clue just how rough it really is.

That's very well put, CL. There is a big amount of compassion and sorrow for a person w/BPD. And staying in touch and helping is wonderful - as long as it can be done w/out consuming and destroying your own life.

I think finding the balance is the toughest thing in a relationship w/ a pwBPD

[Ziggiddy]

Wow. Pessimism-optimism - some great great points. So educational and clearly stated. Really helpful for me too.

CL I can't help but noticing that your tone whenever you mention the personality change seems skeptical. Of course you are hopeful - that's only natural. You want your mother like a mother.

I did not realise till your last comment that it was your mother's business.

Like you I got involved in my parents' business and for 2-3 years worked like a trojan and gave my all to learning and improving things in it. BPDm stepped back because the novelty wore off and she preferred to go binge-spend the income which eventually led to being one of the factors when the business went insolvent.

Anyway long story short, I felt a good deal of responsibility to help with the business and I was glad to have a job I loved and work with some great great people BUT I did not keep in mind that it was not MY business and that in the end, my parents were legally and morally responsible for it. They got to make the decisions by dint of the fact that their names were on the contract and the deal with the bank finance.

What I'm saying is to keep relative the positions of the people involved. If it is your mother's business then she is entitled to change things and compromise any good decisions you make or work you do. It is really your responsibility to keep in mind that that may well be a likelihood as the disorder is fairly consistent in its inconsistency. I know you have probably done untold good there - it certainly sounds like it but working with family who are fairly normal and sane can be trying - how much more so when it's with a BPD parent?

I'm just warning you is all. I wished I had had the knowledge to uninvolve myself emotionally and allow my folks to completely reap the consequences of their own decisions. After all that is how a parent teaches a child isn't it?

And yes 9 days is a very short time to assess change. You may wish to review some information regarding boundaries and validation which may assist you in refocussing on what you will and won't allow whilst trying to remain as detached as possible while you patiently wait to see if the work she has done in therapy holds.

Good luck and keep us posted. I am very curious to see how it works out.

Ziggiddy

[CL]

Wow, Ziggiddy.  Our situations are extremely similar.  Thank you for your thoughts.  Also agree with you, very valuable points made by pessim-optimism.

CL I can't help but noticing that your tone whenever you mention the personality change seems skeptical.

Good call.  I'm skeptical.  And I feel rather guilty about feeling that way.  It was just so sudden and extreme.

I did not realise till your last comment that it was your mother's business.

Like you I got involved in my parents' business and for 2-3 years worked like a trojan and gave my all to learning and improving things in it.  I felt a good deal of responsibility to help with the business and I was glad to have a job I loved and work with some great great people BUT I did not keep in mind that it was not MY business

I'm a minority owner, and I've been involved for years from out of town doing websites and marketing and things of that nature.  The business would not have survived this year.  It was gonna die.  So I made the decision to come see what I could do as I was well aware that a lot of the fundamental problems were caused by BPDm's management.  I knew I would regret it if I didn't at least come try. Of course I had to give up a lot.  My job, my life in another city, it was not a decision made lightly. 

I've immersed myself in it, turned things around, and we do employ some great people.  I can really relate to that.  In fact most of the time I feel responsible to protect them from her.  She hurts somebody's feeling or offends somebody almost daily.  I'm always trying to be a buffer for them, they don't deserve to be abused at work.  She doesn't see what she does as abuse.  She says that everybody is just overly sensitive.   

What I'm saying is to keep relative the positions of the people involved. If it is your mother's business then she is entitled to change things and compromise any good decisions you make or work you do. It is really your responsibility to keep in mind that that may well be a likelihood as the disorder is fairly consistent in its inconsistency. I know you have probably done untold good there - it certainly sounds like it but working with family who are fairly normal and sane can be trying - how much more so when it's with a BPD parent?

I needed to hear that, thanks.  She is indeed entitled to run it right into the ditch if she wants and I do need to accept that.  It's just mightly aggravating that now that everything is humming along, she decides to start getting involoved in the day to day again and basically throw wrenches into all of my progress because she now wants it done her way.  Like that was working out so well before.     My therapist has said the exact same thing about working with family/a pwBPD. She even went so far as to ask me gently if this is really what I need to be doing and where I need to be. 

Thing is, I really like this business!  It's doing so much better now, and there is so much more room for growth if she will just not mess it up. 

We have a joint session scheduled for Monday.  We usually go seperately and I have no idea how I am going to explain these recent dramatic changes to the therapist (the personality change, the control grab) with her sitting right there.  I realize I have to tread very carefully in order to not impede any real progress with the BPD work.  Thats the priority.  Anyway thanks again for all of your thoughts. It's a huge help to hear from people who have been there.   

[pessim-optimist]

It's just mightly aggravating that now that everything is humming along, she decides to start getting involoved in the day to day again and basically throw wrenches into all of my progress because she now wants it done her way.  Like that was working out so well before.   

One thing to beware is getting into the pattern of having responsibility for the outcomes w/out the authority to make changes.

Your mom might be unconsciously positioning herself into the place of having all the authority and no responsibility.

For anything to work right in life, the law of proper boundaries is - authority goes together w/responsibility. Now w/out one another... .

My therapist has said the exact same thing about working with family/a pwBPD. She even went so far as to ask me gently if this is really what I need to be doing and where I need to be. 

Thing is, I really like this business!  It's doing so much better now, and there is so much more room for growth if she will just not mess it up.

Your therapist sounds wise. Is your response to her question a realistic probability, given who your mom is?

We have a joint session scheduled for Monday.  We usually go seperately and I have no idea how I am going to explain these recent dramatic changes to the therapist (the personality change, the control grab) with her sitting right there.  I realize I have to tread very carefully in order to not impede any real progress with the BPD work.  Thats the priority.

What's going to be the goal of the joint session?

[CL]

Fantastic observations and questions.  You really hit the nail square on the head! Amazing. 

One thing to beware is getting into the pattern of having responsibility for the outcomes w/out the authority to make changes.

Your mom might be unconsciously positioning herself into the place of having all the authority and no responsibility.

This is a very real problem. My mom is big on blame and who's fault everything is.  I mean everything, even the most minor things. "Well it's his fault!" Or "it's not my fault!" It's like placing the blame is always priority over whatever the issue actually is.  It's exhausting.

This has been addressed by the therapist in one of our joint sessions.   My mom was blaming me for some problems and then she mentioned that the problems had existed before I ever even got there.  So the therapist asked her how was I responsible if it had been happening since before I got there?  She didn't know how to answer that one. 

She very much would like to be a dictator, and then throw me under the bus for anything that goes wrong.  Oh yeah.  Absolutely. 

Your therapist sounds wise. Is your response to her question a realistic probability, given who your mom is?

This therapist is awesome. 

And probably not.  Sigh.  Maybe I'm invested in what I think and wish and know it could be rather than the reality of what it is which is a daily struggle with a sick person.   I know I can't accept this stress as a permanent lifestyle, so I'm just hoping that she will get help in therapy.  Here's a catch though - It would have been easier for me to up and leave when I thought she was just being a dysfunctional jerk, rather than now when I know she is mentally ill.  It's more complicated now. 

What's going to be the goal of the joint session?

You know, I'm not sure anymore.  It will only be our 3rd time together.  I usually go in once every 2/3 weeks while mom has been going in weekly or twice a week. 

I believe it was set up originally to deal with a trip I am taking next weekend to visit my brother.  Everybody who knows anything about the situation did not expect her to take it well at all because he is golden right now and I am black.  So with the advice of the therapist we broke it to her slowly and gently, but the thing is we told her during this current personality shift so she seems to be handling it just fine.  I don't know that we really need a session to deal with the fallout anymore, because there doesn't seem to be any. 

I'm not sure how it's going to go down now.  Good question.  My goals are to get some clarity on what is going on with this personality change, and find out why she's trying to take over everything at the same time.  As far as I know, this is all going to be news to the therapist. 

She had scheduled us for a double session when we thought we were going to be dealing with a possible meltdown over my trip.  She said one wasn't going to be enough time. That's how bad we anticipated it being.  But now mom has turned into Buddha, a control-freak Buddha-ha!, so you can see why I'm so thrown by all this.

I just had a moment of panic because if she ever does find this site and read this, heaven help me!  Not likely, but just the thought gives me a palpitations.

[pessim-optimist]

This may be too late of a reply:

How about cancelling the joint session since it is "no longer necessary" and exploring the sudden personality change and power-grab solo - just you and the therapist? It might give you more freedom to talk openly and for the therapist to talk openly. Just a thought.

If you go together, it's going to be tricky. If you really want to bring up the issues, posing the situation in "I" statements is likely to make it go over easier. Something like:

'I am seeing a lot of positive change in our communication which has gotten much more peaceful. I like that, and wonder what happened to bring that about.'

and

'I also have a concern: I feel like if I have responsibility for some areas I need to have the authority to make decisions about it. I find my mom wanting to make changes, which is fine with me, as long as she wants to take on the responsibility for those areas.'

Let us know how it went, ok?

[Ziggiddy]

It would have been easier for me to up and leave when I thought she was just being a dysfunctional jerk, rather than now when I know she is mentally ill.  It's more complicated now.  


I just had a moment of panic because if she ever does find this site and read this, heaven help me!  Not likely, but just the thought gives me a palpitations.

Hi CL. I was struck by these two thoughts in particular.

When I came to this forum, my very first post was regarding the exact same underlying thing. I was scared of my mother finding out. Finding out I was annoyed with her. Finding out that I had spoken to my brother (the can-do-no-right scapegoat of the family). Finding out that I had written stuff about her - in public!

Not just palpitations but the closest thing I've had to anxiety! Paralysing for me. Then when my brother offered to take the 'blame' for something that had happened which we knew would 'anger the beast' I got to thinking why he should not have the same fear as I was having although he was treated much much worse than me?

SO I read more. And I talked more to smart loving people. And I posted on here more. And of course I read what others posted and I got to thinking this: why was it that I was watching everything I said and did or really, even thought when mother was free to express everything she felt or thought or did - quite often in the most inappropriate and painful of ways?

I think we are trained in this. "Be careful not to think or feel or say anything that will lead to mother explosion." We feel as though it's our fault.

"If I said something and mother exploded then it must have been MY fault. I made mother explode."

This is completely inculcated into us from birth - it is accompanied by explanation isn't it?

"This is YOUR fault!"

Have a look Look at 2 & 3 in this article if you've a mind to. I found this so enlightening.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78298.0

And CL even though your mother is mentally ill, even if she was just a dysfunctional jerk you would still always have the option of doing what YOU want to do. It is all your choice. At all times.

Like, do you feel if you had a different boss who behaved this way, would you react/behave the same way?

Yes mental deficit influence, even dictate people's way of thinking but does that mean they get a free ticket to "Whatever-I-Want-Even-At-the-Expense-of-Others Land?

I had someone put it to me like this "I can forgive a drunk person for what they do when they're drunk - they are out of their mind and out of control, BUT I don't have to forgive them for getting drunk in the first place."

 

[HappyChappy]

CL Sounds like you have a good therapist and you're on the road to a resolution.

I was initial draw by you business issue (I've been running businesses for over 20 years) there have been studies that show those with a personality disorder tend to be very good at getting power and control of an organisation, but below average at running them. Their paranoia and inability to work as a team leads to destructive behaviour. Not to mention all the gas lighting and projection.