so clever

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Does anyone else struggle with the intelligence of their pwBPD. I have never known anyone so capable of being able to spin the truth so that he comes out on top and I end up actually falling for it and starting to believe that I am the one with the problem. I really think he would make a fantastic politician. Don't get me wrong, we all have our own issues but when I talk to my friends they look at me with the mouths agape as if to say "you actually believe that?". I am currently being told that I give up on relationships too easily and that if a relationship doesn't work I 'discard' the offending man. I have been told that my daughter will grow up never finding the right man because they will never live up to her expectations (because of my behaviour). I have been told that I am controlling because when he first moved in I asked if he would mind keeping the work tops clear and just shifting the dirty plates to the side of the sink. Of course when I look at these rationally I can see what's going on - a lot of projection. I found it impossible to keep up with his mind. Also there were times when I would look at him and really be quite afraid because he seemed so screwed up. Other times I would look at him and see a very sane loving man. So confusing.

[pavilion]

Does anyone else struggle with the intelligence of their pwBPD. I have never known anyone so capable of being able to spin the truth so that he comes out on top and I end up actually falling for it and starting to believe that I am the one with the problem. I really think he would make a fantastic politician. Don't get me wrong, we all have our own issues but when I talk to my friends they look at me with the mouths agape as if to say "you actually believe that?". I am currently being told that I give up on relationships too easily and that if a relationship doesn't work I 'discard' the offending man. I have been told that my daughter will grow up never finding the right man because they will never live up to her expectations (because of my behaviour). I have been told that I am controlling because when he first moved in I asked if he would mind keeping the work tops clear and just shifting the dirty plates to the side of the sink. Of course when I look at these rationally I can see what's going on - a lot of projection. I found it impossible to keep up with his mind. Also there were times when I would look at him and really be quite afraid because he seemed so screwed up. Other times I would look at him and see a very sane loving man. So confusing.

[Caramel]

Hi Pavilion 

I'm sorry that you are going through this difficult time. We have all been there, so don't think that you are alone.

I would say a big 'YES' to everything that you said. Yes, pwBPD can be very intelligent, they can twist words to win arguments. they make you doubt your own sanity. They are equipped with lots of unconscious defense mechanisms (projection, gaslighting, etc) to put you in FOG. (Fear, Obligation, Guilt). And yes, they can seem very loving and then not very loving at other times. They have two part time selves. That's the pathology of the disorder.

I read on another thread that you have just recently been out of the relationship. When I came out of my relationship and joined this board I honestly though that I was crazy! I nomore knew what was wrong and what was right, I didn't know who I was anymore! But I'm much better and I can see things much more clearly now, thanks to this board and the supporting people on it. 

I would suggest that you read and post a lot here. As you learn more about BPD and see the similarities between yours and others stories you will come out of FOG and depersonalize the behavior.

Also I would suggest that you talk to a therapist if you can. It helped me a lot.

We are all here for. You will get through this.   

[Blimblam]

I'm sorry you are going through this.  

A major tactic they use is to catch you off guard.  So that you never get good footing.  

Think if you were going to shoot a basketball and you were getting focused and yelled at right before you shot.  

Take a break and repeat the last thing they said and have them explain themselves.  

They catch you off guard then try to get you to explain yourself.  

They are using extremely immature tactics when it comes down to it. They are just extremely persistent.  

[Narellan]

Mine constantly " moved the goalposts" if I asked him about something he didn't want to answer he would bring up something out of left field that always shocked me to forget the original topic. It's the most confusing and devastating relationship I've ever been in. For example after my exBPD posted 10 or so photos of us happily on holidays together I text him to say " looks like you're missing me today". He blew up saying I was desperate to be in a relationship and I was smothering him. That's pretty much the last words he ever said to me... .5 months ago... .He was crafty and clever and never at fault.

And for the past 5 months I've struggled greatly to make any sense of any of it... .

My exBPD had an answer for everything. At the time it seemed to make sense, but now I am stunned that I believed any of it. He lied, compulsively. And cheated.

Omg the things he told me... .Like he thought he had no interest in sex anymore until he met me. He hadn't been active for 18 months and believed he was finished with sex. Turns out he later casually brings up 2 other women he was with in that 18 months, one of them whilst with me at the very start. Why did I believe any of it? I think I was bowled over and ultimately flattered I activated his dead sex life... .What a gullible idiot I am. And this is just a minor thing compared to the rest of the $hit he keeps flinging at me... ,

Very clever, but I just believed what I wanted to believe.

[Linda Maria]

Hi Pavilion!  Sorry to hear about your situation.  My sis is uBPD so I don't usually post on this board but something resonated.  I think a lot of it is projection.  When my hell started last year, following the death of my Mum, and my sister turned on me - she was telling me and everyone else how hurtful it was that I had said I hated her and never wanted to communicate with her again!  She told people I wouldn't let her see my kids etc. it was just completely untrue and horrible.  I thought she was just projecting - as she clearly hated me.  Then she started accusing me of doing illegal things regarding my Mum's affairs - this was ridiculous, firstly because I would never do these things, secondly because everything was in the hands of the probate solicitor so I couldn't have done these things anyway - it wouldn't have been possible.  A close friend said it was probably because she was planning to do these things - and she turned out to be right - she has tried all sorts of tricks to screw me out of money etc. and is pursuing a complaint against the solicitor, accusing them of favouring me, because her dirty tricks didn't work!  Now - whenever I get accused of anything, I usually find later that it is something she has done herself, and she clearly thinks that if she accuses me - it will distract attention from the fact that she is doing it, but it's so obvious, she gives herself away every time.  All the third parties - solicitors, estate agents, neighbours etc. can see exactly what is going on - she thinks she's cleverer than all of us - but everyone sees straight through it - it's embarrassing!  once you realise how mad and futile it is, it's much easier to let go of worrying about it, because it's not worth your time.  But a partner is different to a sister, and its much harder to go LC or NC so I feel for you.  JB

[Numbers]

I agree with replies above. If it makes you feel any better, I would not call that kind of social skills clever. Let me give you a specific example.

Often, and always at times when I wanted to rationally discuss something, I was caught off guard by something along the lines of "Why are you so cold?". That immediately sent me into JADE and moved the topic from the issue at hand to me.

Months later, when I questioned everything, I analyzed this mechanic and realized that it is just a learned way to deflect and put the other person on defensive. I even went on to test the theory and started asking my coworkers "Why are you so cold?" out of the blue in the middle of conversations, especially if they were obviously not "cold". Sure enough, they immediately went to great lengths to explain and prove how and why they are not "cold". Then I told them about the joke and for a time we started asking every random person who came into the office "Why are you so cold". Colleagues, deliverymen, everyone. They all fell for that. We stopped because the joke wore off and it is childish.

Toying with someone does not make you clever. It makes you a small child with a loaded gun.

[Mr Hollande]

Does anyone else struggle with the intelligence of their pwBPD. I have never known anyone so capable of being able to spin the truth so that he comes out on top and I end up actually falling for it and starting to believe that I am the one with the problem. I really think he would make a fantastic politician. Don't get me wrong, we all have our own issues but when I talk to my friends they look at me with the mouths agape as if to say "you actually believe that?". I am currently being told that I give up on relationships too easily and that if a relationship doesn't work I 'discard' the offending man. I have been told that my daughter will grow up never finding the right man because they will never live up to her expectations (because of my behaviour). I have been told that I am controlling because when he first moved in I asked if he would mind keeping the work tops clear and just shifting the dirty plates to the side of the sink. Of course when I look at these rationally I can see what's going on - a lot of projection. I found it impossible to keep up with his mind. Also there were times when I would look at him and really be quite afraid because he seemed so screwed up. Other times I would look at him and see a very sane loving man. So confusing.

Highly intelligent yes. Can win any argument no matter how absurd his views yes. At the same time with all the good people he's wasted along the way makes him dumber than ___.

[Alex86]

IMO they are not clever.

I would agree with Numbers. When pwBPD try to convince someone they use the only method they have learnt, FOG.

And they are very experts on that. They have been doing this since little kids in order to have the validation and reward they were seeking.

Along with their skills reading facial expressions (which again have been doing since kids as a defense mechanism) they seem to win

every argument. I read a paper stating that the level of these skills can be compared to the one of psychiatrists and therapists. Even though they might have this ability from birth they have been perfected it. However they are based on emotions and not facts.

However, when you detach, learn about the disorder you eventually understand this method very clearly and you

can't be manipulated anymore. I believe this is the stage when you can't go back.

[BacknthSaddle]

Of course when I look at these rationally I can see what's going on - a lot of projection.

Bingo

[pavilion]

Thanks everyone. I say clever because I could never think as quickly and turn things around so convincingly. Although there have been a couple of times when he has had to go and have a bath to think about it before coming back with something 

[Blimblam]

The Fog is very confusing!

After some time of being out of the fog it I realized it is easier to make sense of things if I reframe it.  It was an abusive relationship and I was bullied.

If you look up abusive relationships and bullying it might put a lot of things into perspective.

I grew up being bullied by a sociopathic older brother who took great pleasure in tormenting me. It was only recently that I realized my ex was doing a lot of the same behaviors.  They toy with your emotions and undermine your self esteem a lot of it is based off of timing and reading your body language. They want you to doubt yourself.

If you remain unemotional during these interactions and do no answer any of their questions abut explaining yourself it is possible to "win" the argument.  Only if you completely reframe it as to why they are projecting onto you this person they see you as.  I "won" plenty of these arguments but it didn't matter in the end.  They hold onto resentment and find other ways to hurt you. Do not play the game.

[BuildingFromScratch]

Thanks everyone. I say clever because I could never think as quickly and turn things around so convincingly. Although there have been a couple of times when he has had to go and have a bath to think about it before coming back with something  

It's easy to be clever when you're not limited by pesky things like honesty, good will and truth. I too thought my ex was smarter than me, but she just persistently blamed me and guilt tripped me and whittled me down into a heap of bumbling goo. I argued with her until the end but I would crawl back and take the blame every single time. I honestly thought I was a piece of crap. I can't believe someone would do this to me. All I can say is despite my sympathy for her mental illness, it must be nice to blame everyone else and do whatever you want and walk away and forget.

[antjs]

Actually i do not think they are that smart. Do not get me wrong, a person who did need to develop tactics to get what he or she wants since they were children have developed lots of tactics. But they are not super smart.

Part of our perception (they are super smart) is because there were emotions involved. You loved and trusted that person. Not to mention the fantasy we have built in our minds about them that comes as a cherry over the cake. It took us long time to believe what we actually see and break down the false belief about them (honest, compassionate,... .etc). I do not think that they try to maintain a better image infront of their friends as they are afraid for their "image". But i do believe that they need to use more subtle manipulation with them because no romantic feelings are involved. As u said ur friends say "do you believe that?" . Your friends are not smarter than you, they are just not involved romantically

Actually i thank my friends for being my support during the devaluation. They helped me not to get sucked in insanity by the gaslighting.

[Mr Hollande]

I second that. Like the woman I am with now said when I told her various things about my ex. "Jesus, can you not see how she played you?". Needless to say I didn't at the time. I do now for what it's worth.

And ditching a guy who is about to help you with your crippling debts, paid for your medication, arranged for legal advice when her kid was in trouble and many many other things that slip my mind right now for a semi down and out drug dealer without a pot to piss in who has never had a job in his life is not clever nor intelligent. It's so dumb it beggars belief.

[Mutt]

I second that. Like the woman I am with now said when I told her various things about my ex. "Jesus, can you not see how she played you?". Needless to say I didn't at the time. I do now for what it's worth.

And ditching a guy who is about to help you with your crippling debts, paid for your medication, arranged for legal advice when her kid was in trouble and many many other things that slip my mind right now for a semi down and out drug dealer without a pot to piss in who has never had a job in his life is not clever nor intelligent. It's so dumb it beggars belief.

Hi Mr Hollande,

I understand. Many members gave their all in a relationship with a pwBPD - including myself. Soon after the break-up we may experience feelings of resentment. Our acts of generosity and kindness was invalidated. Our feelings were hurt and we all vent. Resentment is balancing the wrongs by feeling anger towards a person.

It helps to ask ourselves if we are making a healthy choice with our anger - is resentment beneficial to our healing process? I'm sorry to hear that you were taken advantage of Mr. Hollande. Arranging legal advice, helping with debts and her meds was a kind thing to do - generosity.

[blissful_camper]

I second that. Like the woman I am with now said when I told her various things about my ex. "Jesus, can you not see how she played you?". Needless to say I didn't at the time. I do now for what it's worth.

Be mindful about discussing or working through your past relationship with your new partner. That's not really fair to your new partner.  It may be more constructive to discuss those issues with a therapist, thus insulating your new partner from that stress. 

Do you feel that you're ready to be in a new relationship?  Have you completely detached from your ex? 

[Ventus2ct]

It's easy to be clever when you're not limited by pesky things like honesty, good will and truth. I too thought my ex was smarter than me, but she just persistently blamed me and guilt tripped me and whittled me down into a heap of bumbling goo. I argued with her until the end but I would crawl back and take the blame every single time. I honestly thought I was a piece of crap. I can't believe someone would do this to me. All I can say is despite my sympathy for her mental illness, it must be nice to blame everyone else and do whatever you want and walk away and forget.

I agree with what you write, I was aware she was bright intelligent but never believed I would in my life put myself in the same position, opened myself up 100% only for her to take everything, I had exactly the same and felt the same.

Mine worked in PR, so was almost her dream job, spouting bulli___ all day long to the press.!

She was smart but very stupid with it. It's almost as if they go down a path of destruction, get to the stage when they cannot retreat or repair the damage, even if they wanted to, so just carry on until they get to the end of their road and replace.

[Dutched]

As Caramel said. Defence meganism

As numbers said. No rational discussion (emotions)

As Anthony_james said. Nothing to do with cleverness or intelligence.

During PERSONAL (with partners/close friends etc) discussions, specially during a quarrel with a partner, a BPD hears words, not sentences, nor have the overall view of the topic discussed.

(professionally or at social gatherings, etc. there is NO danger of emotional involvement, so in general a BPD is able to use normal social skills).

As a BPD hears "different" in such a discussion they choose a word (picked up BETWEEN the other words of the sentence), they listen so carefully to any intonation (in which the other expresses any emotion) that they are triggered/forced by their defense meganism (perceived or not!) to react.

So what is happening? As described in this topic, we perceive those discussions as twisting, so intelligent, etc. Why?

Because of OUR shortcomings in discussion techniques, even during a quarrel.

Stick to your point... . In a discussion/quarrel (the “art” of having a healthy quarrel) always address 1 topic at the time and take a break in the middle of the heat!

So don't let someone take advantage to "create" a sub-subject!

(Part of why business meetings take that long too... .)

In such a personal discussion/quarrel in which a sensitive subject is addressed to a BPD and no space is left for twisting (although of course all people try to “explain" their behavior, stating the “but I…” ) it go's every time via the same stages.

So predictable:

1  feelings of shame (the child that is caught, body language, even crying)

2  defense meganism is activated (you won’t catch me)

3  looking for a way out (the “but I... ”,  followed by twisting facts => feelings become facts…)

4  trying to accuse the messenger (YOU) even denigrate you with painful remarks if a BPD needs it to defend.

   The twisting WE perceive… started, but WE allowed them to do so…

5  convincing the messenger (YOU) of their honesty / sincere motives. And if 4 was not successful (YOU gave no space to do so) a BPD tries to convince YOU of a different outcome (that plead themselves free) that YOU SHOULD have xyz… (asked the right questions, give the BPD the opportunity, etc.).  

6  making intense eye contact with you, as prove of their innocence (NOT BPD, as every liar does so, it is part of the natural human behavior).

No, no cleverness whatsoever involved, although exBPDw was/is high functioning, very intelligent, highly educated, senior position within the same institution for over 12yrs. now.

[Mr Hollande]

Resentment is balancing the wrongs by feeling anger towards a person.

It helps to ask ourselves if we are making a healthy choice with our anger - is resentment beneficial to our healing process?

In the long run no but you've almost provided the answer with the first sentence. For me the resentment is what keeps me walking away from her. I know little else but anger and walking at this stage. In time I might know more.

I second that. Like the woman I am with now said when I told her various things about my ex. "Jesus, can you not see how she played you?". Needless to say I didn't at the time. I do now for what it's worth.

Be mindful about discussing or working through your past relationship with your new partner. That's not really fair to your new partner.  It may be more constructive to discuss those issues with a therapist, thus insulating your new partner from that stress. 

Do you feel that you're ready to be in a new relationship?

Have you completely detached from your ex?

I was honest about my situation from the start with this new woman and she accepted it. I tend not to talk about it that much and she is the one who asks. Her take is that she'd rather know what I am thinking and how I am feeling than me bottling everything up inside. She asks so I talk.

No I don't which is why I ended it a few days ago. She is still around as a friend and I value that greatly.

Of course I haven't completely detached from my ex. I wouldn't be here if I had, would I?

[Mutt]

Of course I haven't completely detached from my ex. I wouldn't be here if I had, would I?

You're correct. A new relationship can be a way to cope. A transitional object. We have feelings of anxiety, uncertainty, loneliness and it can be a coping mechanism. It's not fair to ourselves to not grieve the loss of a relationship and it's not fair to the new partner as well.

[blissful_camper]

Resentment is balancing the wrongs by feeling anger towards a person.

It helps to ask ourselves if we are making a healthy choice with our anger - is resentment beneficial to our healing process?

In the long run no but you've almost provided the answer with the first sentence. For me the resentment is what keeps me walking away from her. I know little else but anger and walking at this stage. In time I might know more.

I second that. Like the woman I am with now said when I told her various things about my ex. "Jesus, can you not see how she played you?". Needless to say I didn't at the time. I do now for what it's worth.

Be mindful about discussing or working through your past relationship with your new partner. That's not really fair to your new partner.  It may be more constructive to discuss those issues with a therapist, thus insulating your new partner from that stress.  

Do you feel that you're ready to be in a new relationship?

Have you completely detached from your ex?

I was honest about my situation from the start with this new woman and she accepted it. I tend not to talk about it that much and she is the one who asks. Her take is that she'd rather know what I am thinking and how I am feeling than me bottling everything up inside. She asks so I talk.

No I don't which is why I ended it a few days ago. She is still around as a friend and I value that greatly.

Of course I haven't completely detached from my ex. I wouldn't be here if I had, would I?

Good for you for being honest with her.  Clearly she was accepting less than she deserves. (A man who can be fully present with her)  A partner is not a replacement for a therapist when coping with the loss of a previous relationship.  You're shifting the responsibility to her ("She asks so I talk" in place of setting a boundary and enforcing it.  :)id soft boundaries (or a lack of boundaries) get you into trouble in your previous relationship?  If yes, it might better serve you to shift some of that focus from your ex to yourself.  While anger is a natural response, looking inward at your issues will ultimately foster your own growth.  

[patientandclear]

Wow people. I don't recall Mr. Hollande asking for our thoughts about his most recent now ex-relationship. Sticking our nose far into other people's business without being invited is just as likely to be a trait that can get us into trouble in relationships, as whatever "soft boundaries" are reflected in answering the questions posed by a current romantic partner about past relationships.

Mr H was answering the original post, by saying this new woman he was dating, from a somewhat more objective outside stance, was shocked he was so tied up in knots by things his BPD partner said. It's an interesting observation. Not an opening to gratuitously advise him how to conduct his life.

[ScotisGone74]

They are clever to win some arguments, yes, but to have to win All arguments at any cost is not clever.    Some of the lengths they will go to win are astounding, and also tie in directly to their gaslighting and projection.    In the instance of my exBPD I believe the portion of her brain where the ability to feel empathy and trust was just replaced with an ability to memorize and analyze

[Narellan]

Patientandclear 

If there was a "like" button I'd press it... .We are here to listen and support and bring our own knowledge to the table. These relationships are so damaging it is natural to share with someone close. I would and will probably do the same Mr Hollande.

Thank you both for sharing x

[pavilion]

They are clever to win some arguments, yes, but to have to win All arguments at any cost is not clever.    Some of the lengths they will go to win are astounding, and also tie in directly to their gaslighting and projection.    In the instance of my exBPD I believe the portion of her brain where the ability to feel empathy and trust was just replaced with an ability to memorize and analyze

Spot on! In hindsight there  about this early on. We used to have what I thought were intelligent discussions but I always felt as though I was being backed into a corner and thinking about my opinion on the topic was not even an option.

[Tibbles]

Wow - yes I was in exactly the same boat. My BPD has an extremely analytical and process driven brain - makes him very good at his job but also very good at twisting things and presenting a slightly reality that I ended up believing him for a long time. It was only when I started to talk to friends - trying to repeat exactly what was said on both sides that I started to realise something was not right. He kept telling me something was wrong with me and I believed him even though I felt deep inside something was wrong. I couldn't argue against his logic. As you say - impossible to keep up with his mind and still hold to your truth. Soo confusing.

[blissful_camper]

Wow people. I don't recall Mr. Hollande asking for our thoughts about his most recent now ex-relationship. Sticking our nose far into other people's business without being invited is just as likely to be a trait that can get us into trouble in relationships, as whatever "soft boundaries" are reflected in answering the questions posed by a current romantic partner about past relationships.

Mr H was answering the original post, by saying this new woman he was dating, from a somewhat more objective outside stance, was shocked he was so tied up in knots by things his BPD partner said. It's an interesting observation. Not an opening to gratuitously advise him how to conduct his life.

It's not meant as criticism, it's an observation on my part.  I feel it's irresponsible, and yes, unhealthy to discuss trauma from a previous relationship bringing the experiences of that relationship into a new one.  It's really not fair to the new partner.  In fact it's behavior.  A member of this forum cautioned me similarly when I left my ex.  I'm sure glad they did, as the wake-up call prompted me to turn my focus away from my ex, inward. 

[Mr Hollande]

Wow people. I don't recall Mr. Hollande asking for our thoughts about his most recent now ex-relationship. Sticking our nose far into other people's business without being invited is just as likely to be a trait that can get us into trouble in relationships, as whatever "soft boundaries" are reflected in answering the questions posed by a current romantic partner about past relationships.

Mr H was answering the original post, by saying this new woman he was dating, from a somewhat more objective outside stance, was shocked he was so tied up in knots by things his BPD partner said. It's an interesting observation. Not an opening to gratuitously advise him how to conduct his life.

Thank you!

[SpringInMyStep]

Absolutely yes. Mine actually went to law school (though isn't working anymore) and has genius-level intelligence. That's one of the things that attracted me to her, but little did I know, it would lead to manipulation and deception.

She definitely uses her intelligence to convince people that she's not mentally ill. She even refuses to use the term "mentally ill" and has some convoluted explanation as to why it's not a valid term. She had me convinced she was just "different" and her brain worked differently and that everyone else should learn to accept "neurodiversity".

Complete denial. Now I realize that.

[pavilion]

Absolutely yes. Mine actually went to law school (though isn't working anymore) and has genius-level intelligence. That's one of the things that attracted me to her, but little did I know, it would lead to manipulation and deception.

She definitely uses her intelligence to convince people that she's not mentally ill. She even refuses to use the term "mentally ill" and has some convoluted explanation as to why it's not a valid term. She had me convinced she was just "different" and her brain worked differently and that everyone else should learn to accept "neurodiversity".

Complete denial. Now I realize that.

Neurodiversity? Love it! I too was attracted to his intelligence and to what I thought was his emotional intelligence.