How do you know when you found the right attorney?

[Matt]

This topic comes up a lot so I thought it might be good to just take a minute and brainstorm with everybody... .

When you are considering divorce or some other legal conflict with someone who you think may have BPD - someone who has lots of the behaviors associated with BPD - a "high-conflict" person - what should you look for in an attorney?

Here's my list:

* Experience with BPD - able to tell you "war stories" showing what he or she has learned in dealing with BPDish opposing parties.

* Buys into your objectives (though no attorney will give you guarantees).

* Answers your questions clearly - doesn't make you feel dumb for asking them.

* Responds in a timely way - if you leave a message you should get a call or e-mail back the same day or early the next day.

* Explains how the process works where you live - what options you have, how long things take, etc.

* Gives you a clear plan to achieve your goals.

Has everybody had similar experiences, and can you all suggest some additional things to look for?

And maybe some red flags that tell you it's not the right person for your case?

[PinkieV]

I'd like to add that even if your attorney doesn't have experience with BPD, or you've already retained, take the time to explain it to them and see how they react. Our lawyer was a little shocked at first, but as an ex-Navy JAG, he rose to the challenge, readily accepted and read all my research, and was an absolute bulldog in court. He thanked DH and I in the end and I know he held us in high regard for researching, planning, and being prepared when we went to court. If you're in the Seattle area let me know and I'll refer!

[toomanytears]

ok so my lawyer is very experienced, but i'm not sure he has clue about the condition of BPD, only, possibly, the concept of a high conflict personality. He practises as a part time judge so he'll have seen plenty. However, how do I explain about my stbx husband's BPD without me sounding like a psycho myself?

[catnap]

ok so my lawyer is very experienced, but i'm not sure he has clue about the condition of BPD, only, possibly, the concept of a high conflict personality. He practises as a part time judge so he'll have seen plenty. However, how do I explain about my stbx husband's BPD without me sounding like a psycho myself?

Speak about the behaviors, giving specific examples.  It might be a very good idea to stress that the behaviors are not just a one time thing.

[birdlady]

As a survivor of domestic violence, something that is often associated with a partner with BPD, NPD, and/or ASPD traits, I was fortunate to get a referral from my local DV group.  From the initial consultation with my attorney, I could tell she "got" it.  Being in a small town she had even met my now-ex and she told me her impression of him.  It was spot on.  It has worked out very well.  She understood what we were dealing with.

In any case, when you choose an attorney you are the one doing the job interview during the initial consultation.  If you have any reservations or just don't "click" with the attorney keep looking.

Also, you can have an excellent attorney, but when the other side has "issues" you are in for a long haul.  My divorce took a little over 2 years from filing to judgment, with no children or custody issues, and with modest assets involved.   I'm still waiting for the terms of the judgment to be fulfilled. It's not over until it's over and my attorney is seeing it through to the end.

Im so glad I stood up to my ex and fought for what was rightfully mine.  I'm so glad I have an attorney who has been a true advocate, counselor, and at times, human shield from the spate of ugliness and craziness.  She also respected and supported my strict NC.

While generally it is the PDs and not the non who attorney hop, remember if you find yourself feeling not well represented, you can always hire another attorney.  Just be willing to pay for a few extra hours to bring them up to speed on your case.

One last thing, if you find yourself with a good attorney, you will probably feel that the money spent for good representation is well worth it. I do not regret for a moment the money. I paid in attorneys fees (I'm not wealthy.  I did without other things).  Part of my healing process has been standing up to him and not letting him "steamroller" me.  I couldn't have done it without a real legal advocate.

[slimmiller]

In my case, My attorney ended up being somewhat mediocre in some aspects but great in others.

She did not understand BPD and was clueless when I began to explain. It didnt take me long to realize she was not going to GET it so instead I explained that my ex will not, does not and can not function as one would expect a rational person to do. My explaining her (my now exes) attitude and ideas with the kids etc spoke volumes in itself. She (the attorney) got it and said, and I am paraphrasing here, 'If she was a logical normally functioning person, we would not be talking here' (The attorney to me referring to my ex)

I do think its of the utmost importance that the attorney understand BPD but I also think some can represent well if they understand that the dynamics are not going to be traditional from the other parties (Bpds etc)  They have very likely seen some of the dynamics before and a good one will understand.

So I agree a 100% with the original post but think sometime the attorney understands 'somewhat' without knowing the full dynamics of the disorder. The attorney served me well without understanding BPD but Iam sure all too often thats not the case though

The whole thing basically ended up being decided and done the way it was due to my exes actions etc and the dynamics of the disorder were not brought into play

[walksoftly]

I would choose a female attorney and one that understands a high conflict personality. I think its key that you choose a female as most people with BPD are female.

[Matt]

I would choose a female attorney and one that understands a high conflict personality. I think its key that you choose a female as most people with BPD are female.

Not sure I understand, Pwoods.

Are you saying that if the person with BPD is a woman, and if your attorney is a man, that the court might feel sorry for her?

But if your attorney is a woman, then it will seem more "fair" when your attorney asks the other party some tough questions?

[catnap]

To add to Matt's excellent list:

*They explain their billing structure, hourly rate and how that is broken down for email and phone calls.

*How long they have been practicing in your jurisdiction and if they are somewhat familiar with each family law Judge.


Son's attorney explained her billing structure and advised how soon she would respond. Bills were sent each month detailing expenses and what remained of the retainer.  She was able to give him a rundown of each of the eight family judges and how they generally ruled. 

She ask my son about his immediate and then long range objective (she called it the "endgame" for custody.

[walksoftly]

a female attorney will see through the games the female BPD will play. The crying, the vicitm, etc. Men tend to feel sorry for these women especially if they are attractive. Trust me, the BPD will use everything at her disposal- thats how she trapped us in the first place. So dont underestimate the choosing of a female lawyer.

[david]

I had a female atty. She was horrible and it took me a while to understand that. I interviewd a bunch after that. I found one that understood my game plan. Since that time things have worked well in court. He doesn't understand BPD but has questioned me about ex after having several meetings with her present. I didn't mention BPD. All I said was ex is an angry person and rational thought doesn't work with ex when I am involved. I did give him examples. My atty has tried some rational things with ex. He told me what he was going to do and I told him what to expect from ex. I think it was the third time that my atty finally realized I knew what I was talking about and really did understand my ex. Now he will tell me what he thinks will work and how he thinks we should proceed. I then say yes or no. If I say no I will try to explain what the problem is. He then figures a legal way around/through/the roadblock I explain. The back and forth usually comes to a solution. Every time we did that it has worked.

Also, my atty likes to settle things. I have firm boundaries of what I will accept and what I will not accept. It is all centered around our kids and what is best for them. He understands I will not budge from certain points about the kids and does accept that since it is in their best interests.

[ForeverDad]

My first attorney was a woman, she had been an ADA.  She did the best she could but she was new and was out of water since I was in another county and she had little familiarity with the lawyers and judges there.  When it became apparent that I had to file for divorce she recommended a male lawyer she had had previously had a case against.  She said he was reasonable and sought solutions.  So I hired him.  Granted, he wasn't as assertive as I would have liked him to be, I felt he should have fought harder to get the temp order improved as the case progressed and I was seen more and more favorably, but he was right when he said, ":)o you want a $5K divorce or a $30K one?"  I had to use my money wisely and choose my battles.  Sadly, it was quickly more than a $5K, he had estimated a divorce with children to be 7-9 months, it morphed into a 23.5 month one.  And then another 6 years before we finally got orders that reflected what worked.

I think while a lawyer's gender might be helpful, it is just one factor to consider, it also depends on the judge, custody evaluator and other professionals.  In my case I had 3 magistrates and two judges over the years.  One magistrate was not phased by anything my ex did and was basically a bump on a log.  Another was angry at both of us when she should have been upset with just my ex.  The third was better but still she was overly legalistic.  I recall the first case with her my ex had gone off on a vacation with our then-kindergartener the week after his spring break without specific dates nor any written notice.  It was just weeks after the final decree.  She ruled that ex wasn't "technically" in contempt because the old order she violated was no longer in effect and the new order she violated hadn't been in effect long enough for her to have given the full 30 days notice.  Clearly the fact she had failed to give any written or specific notice, not just short notice, didn't matter to the law.  So she violated both but wasn't "technically" in contempt with the best of three magistrates.   Come on, do orders need clauses to handle the transition between orders?

[david]

An additional thought. When my second atty realized I knew what ex would probably do if such and such happened things became easier.

The same thing happened for our kids in school. It took the school around two years  before enough of them got it. It started with one of the school counselors. Once she was on board she helped guide me and also was my advocate and got others to listen to me. Once that happened things got better at their school.

I think it is the same for others as it is for those that married someone with BPD. Once I began to question ex's behavior things got bad real fast between ex and I. Then she left. I got my bearings after that and learned that ex wasn't going to change. That is an advantage since I can pretty much figure what she will do when I do something. I detached from all her bs and didn't react. I made some boundaries and stuck to them. Extinction bursts happen from time to time now but her basic behaviors are the same. She only has a few basic courses of action and she has no ability to think outside of that box. She is trapped there. That makes dealing with her about our kids much better.

We have been separated since 2007 and looking back things were always the same with her. I adapted to the reality and focused on the kids.

[livednlearned]

Not everyone on this board is dealing with a female pwBPD. Many of us were married to men with BPD, and the sword cuts both ways. N/BPDx hired a father's rights advocate who eventually withdrew, but in the time he was on retainer, he took a scorched earth approach and drove the cost of our custody battle up into the tens of thousands of dollars, fighting to get additional time for a mentally ill alcoholic with no interest in being a dad. A male attorney seemed to work out just fine for him.

In my opinion, after 4 years on this godawful merry-go-round, the key to finding the right attorney was me. I grew a backbone and dealt with my own issues. I stopped being passive, I learned to regulate my anxiety, I stopped feeling like a victim. If I didn't understand something, which was mostly everything at first, I asked questions and read everything I could. I read case law, and I challenged my attorney when she did something I didn't understand or like. That was entirely new for me. I assumed that my lawyer was doing her best, and she treated me with respect in return. Admittedly, in the beginning, I was so jacked up on fear and anxiety, I misread conversations and had to learn to do reality checks when things felt off the rails.

I learned to pay attention to myself, and to trust my instincts. A lot of us get out of these relationships and our thermostat has been blowing so hot for so long we don't know what temperature we should be. We blame the heat on everything else and forget we're the ones who need to regulate ourselves. Lawyers are not therapists and they're just doing a job. They can't be a good attorney if you aren't a good client. It's hard to think straight when you're flooded with feelings, so learn what that's about and start the long journey to figure out how you got to this point.

The first attorney I consulted with told me to give collaborative divorce a shot. It didn't seem right to try something "collaborative" with a person who was hellbent on "conflict" and I'm glad I trusted my dulled instincts at a time when that was the last thing I was in the habit of doing.

The attorney I've been working with for 4 years said in our first meeting, "All of this you're saying about your husband is awful -- the alcoholism, the abuse, the neglect. But you have to understand that you stayed. Why would you stay if it was this bad? That's going to be running through the judges head. You need to tell a story about a mother who put her kid first.

That conversation, more than anything, made me realize I had issues too. That was the beginning of an intensely painful journey to take responsibility for me, and to stop acting like I had no agency in my own life.

I know what you're asking Matt -- what specific things make the right attorney. I just see a lot of us bringing the same passive approach to divorce and custody that we brought to our failed marriages, and it seems to me like the biggest issue. In one of the many books about BPD and NPD I read (wish I could remember which one), I remember the author saying that people who end up in relationship with narcissistic, entitled, manipulative, and abusive people tend to then pick lawyers who are exactly the same.

The only way to avoid that is to fix your picker 





 

[Matt]

I know what you're asking Matt -- what specific things make the right attorney. I just see a lot of us bringing the same passive approach to divorce and custody that we brought to our failed marriages, and it seems to me like the biggest issue. In one of the many books about BPD and NPD I read (wish I could remember which one), I remember the author saying that people who end up in relationship with narcissistic, entitled, manipulative, and abusive people tend to then pick lawyers who are exactly the same.

The only way to avoid that is to fix your picker  

Yeah, that was me for sure - my picker was definitely broken.

I picked an attorney who pretty much treated me the way my wife had treated me for all those years.  And then I stayed with him too long, and let him abuse me.  :)efinitely some of the same dynamics I had in my marriage.

And I've seen many other members here with similar stories - the first attorney you pick repeats the relationship of the marriage.

The problems is, we're looking for an attorney right at the moment we are weakest, most confused, and most vulnerable.

I'm hoping that some of the specific, tangible things - like does the attorney have experience with similar cases, does she buy in to your objectives, and does she provide a clear plan to achieve them - maybe some focus on these specifics can help find the kind of attorney who will be a good partner, and not repeat the dysfunctional patterns of the marriage.

Good discussion everybody - some very diverse ways of looking at this!

[catnap]

The problems is, we're looking for an attorney right at the moment we are weakest, most confused, and most vulnerable.

Taking a very trusted family member or friend with you to be a second set of ears might be helpful to some.