Stopping Self Destruction

[Depression = 72% of members]

This will be lengthy, my apologies. In order for there to be proper feedback, this should be written with as much detail as I can give you right now. It is probably best to start in the beginning of the spring term of 2011.

I met my-ex in a music history proficiency exam which was taking place prior to the start of the spring 2011 semester while I was working towards my masters degree. I was immediately taken by this clearly intelligent, beautiful woman who had a sardonic wit about her that is so rare in most. I was seeing someone at the time and because of some changes in how I felt about things had taken place in my life with my son’s mother, my-ex was immediately only considered a friend. I saw to it we never did anything alone and I would only stop to visit with her on campus. We became friends quite easily and over the course of several weeks which became months, she would reveal little details about her and her past. When I found her, she was depending on a great number of things. She would disappear for a couple days at a time, and I learned later that she would keep some pills, a bottle of vodka, and a large pocket knife in her bag to use when she needed to while on campus. Some of these things I knew, some of these things I discovered, others she would tell me much later. What was clear to me in my interactions with her over our initial six months was that this was a woman with serious problems, had been seriously damaged, and was a greater danger to herself than anyone I had ever known. What I didn’t know about was the borderline. We began dating over the summer of 2011. It was only then that she revealed to me, almost completely, her affliction and her past relationships which she said almost all had some element of physical or emotional abuse. She told me that twenty minutes here or there with me talking had done more for her than years of therapy. I had noticed for less of the anything-goes-party-girl and possibly dangerous woman and saw her for what I thought (and still think) she really wanted to be, what she was always capable of being. Once I began to read and understand this disorder and attended a few of her therapy sessions, I realized I had to make a decision on what I was to do. I chose to continue with her. I cared about her very much and I began to take her more seriously than I had taken anyone else in my life with the exception of my son. I had seen the change in her and if I was one of the reasons for that change, I felt a deep responsibility to stay and not be frightened. My son was introduced to her and they got along reasonably well even though my-ex never had a fondness for children and their requirements.

That November, I was watching television when my-ex came to my house and asked me to marry her. She had asked me before if I thought she was the kind of girl someone would marry or if she was worth marrying and I told her that she was. It was true based on what I saw her become over the months. Her proposition came as a surprise to me and it was a bit scary but I accepted and we became married. Things were never quite easy, though. Even though almost all of her self destructive and dangerous behavior had subsided or disappeared completely, she was still prone to violent rages and destructive, frightening behavior. But knowing what I knew about the disorder, I stayed with her. I learned techniques in trying to help people in this condition and I did the best I could. It was extremely difficult to manage and it was made all the more difficult in that she ceased her therapy sessions which also meant a cessation of her medication. I would often make suggestions of her returning to a doctor but she would reveal reasons to me why she couldn’t or wouldn’t which, I wonder now, if they were manufactured reasons or not. I invested so much emotional energy in making this marriage work that I lost sight of myself in it. Counseling, therapy, group sessions, I tried them all to help me cope but also help me grow. Rages were common, destructive, and my efforts to create a constantly stable environment of support and care became my full-time job.

I graduated with my masters in the spring of 2012. Knowing my goal was to achieve a PhD, I had a choice. I could either leave to begin a new course of study, or I could wait. my-ex still had a year to go to complete her masters degree. I realized it would have been unfair at the highest level of me to insist she drop what she was doing to follow me. It would have been dangerous for me to leave her behind to achieve my degree, too. I chose what was best for her knowing there would be time enough for my goals later. I decided to stay with her and work in advertising while she completed her degree. Her last year was very difficult for both of us. Her beloved chocolate lab died at our home suddenly. I left work to console her and I risked my job to take it to her parents’ farm two hours away to bury it for her. She had several run-ins with faculty which I had to smooth over for her as I was on very good terms with the faculty there. A $1,000+ library fine had to be taken care of for a book she lost which was on loan to the university from another institution; I settled that for her. She worked three jobs at the same time and was completely exhausted. These weren’t necessary as I was making enough in advertising but she insisted. There were more things that I could reveal but I think you get the idea. Her last semester, she was so certain that she would not be able to get a job due to her disorder that she was considering going on disability and prior to that, she had contemplated going to a full-time inpatient facility for DBT but either time, money, or fear that doing that would appear on her permanent record and keep her from getting a teaching job kept that from happening. I completed her graduation paperwork, her resume, and her cover letters. I encouraged her to try and I found a job in Kentucky where one of the members of the search committee was a long-time friend of mine. She got the job and moved to Kentucky last July. We had considered my staying in Indiana to continue working while I tried to find a job in Kentucky; moving after a job was secured. But we both felt, considering her disorder, it would be better if I moved with her. Besides, we felt that my education, my-experience, and my professional demeanor, would make it easy for me to secure gainful employment quickly. We were wrong.

I moved to Kentucky two weeks after she moved down. I secured the rental truck and had everything from our house in Indiana moved to our new house in Kentucky. When I arrived, she had put everything it its place and I began to see a great new life starting for both of us. Now, I needed to get a job. One condition she gave me was that she was not going to be responsible for my child support. I agreed completely with her. After two months of looking and only receiving two interviews out of the twenty or thirty jobs I applied for, I began to worry that the only way I was going to ever make enough money to support my family was to get my PhD and teach at the university level. This would mean I would have to leave Kentucky, leaving her behind. I finally did find part time work at a Kay’s Jewelers in the mall. The pay was barely above minimum wage but it allowed me to pay my child support. Still, my-ex was working as a teacher and as a seamstress at nearly sixty hours a week and it was killing her. Seeing her like this, seeing my failure as a man and as a husband, compounded with the recent discovery of my mom’s cancer which would kill her faster than the doctors realized, was not only making me depressed, it was making me distant and I began to forget due to my own problems what I was supposed to do to help maintain a stable place for my-ex. It escaped me completely that every time I would bemoan our situation based on my failings and my one and only plan to leave to get my PhD that I was hammering the most dangerous trigger for someone with her condition. I did this almost every day from October until April 20th, when it was too late.

I began to notice changes in my-ex in November. They followed a gradual crescendo until late March of 2014 when something happened that made me, finally, realize something was seriously wrong. But I hadn’t yet realized that it was partly my fault and I was unprepared due to my own depression to effectively do anything for her. I got word from the company I now work for that they wanted to hire me in mid March. The pay was substantial and I began to think that maybe my biggest and best legacy was to be a present husband to my-ex and to be a good father who could support my son in the way he needed to be supported, to forget the life of a conductor; it was a selfish goal. By this time, as I wrote a moment ago, this realization came too late. The day after my mother died on my birthday, I found my-ex having sex with a student helper. I did everything I could think of to try and save her from herself. I undertook plans and strategies and actions that had many of my closest friends and family wondering if I, myself, had lost my senses even going so far as sacrificing everything I own, not taking anything in an impending divorce stating that she and I wouldn’t even have to try and come back together as husband and wife if she would just go get help. The only way I could explain my actions to them was to say, “If you honestly loved someone the way you’re supposed to love someone in marriage, as much as I love my one and only son, then what I am doing, what I’m trying to do, should not come into question. You act because you love. Because you made a solemn promise.” That was the only answer, or something like it, each time because it was the truth. I tried to enlist help from some of her friends and even her parents. I was the only one who was seeing what I was seeing. Neither of us had anyone in Kentucky so efforts were made over the phone, email, and Facebook by me to try and get others to see what I was seeing and hope that someone might convince her to slow down, see what wheels she was setting in motion, and get help. But she paid most of her attention to a handful of people who didn’t know of her disorder, hadn’t known her long, and gave her a very “you go girl” Thelma and Louise pep talk and she felt empowered, I think, in starting up again old habits that had been long left alone.

I am resigned to the fact that my-ex is an adult, disorder or not, and she is responsible for her actions. I had been improving over the last month. I still love her and I still missed her, but I was starting to heal until I got a phone call from a friend yesterday. He told me, “I talked to your ex a couple days ago. I’m having a hard time knowing how to deal with what she told me.” When I asked what he was talking about he said. “Well, she said she’s having sex with five or six different guys and they’re kind of all on a rotation. She called herself a ‘real whore’ and she sounded dead inside. It’s like she’s trying to fill a void or something.” Hearing this put me right back where I was back in April and May. Desperate to save her but I don’t know how. I can’t talk to her. Back when everything fell apart in April, when I learned she was buying a handgun and knowing about her past suicide threats from years ago, the last thing she needed was a handgun so I took out a protective order so she couldn’t purchase one. Doing that caused her to take a protective order on me because she thought the only reason I did it was to have to give testimony to my statement which would make her lose her job and she felt she could use it as leverage. I eventually dropped mine because I wanted to show her I wasn’t trying to do that, but was trying to protect both of us. She kept hers, though, because she felt that if I had one, I wouldn’t go to her school to tell her administrators about her disorder (which I could do by email or phone, anyway, so I didn’t see the point).

She needs help, she’s putting herself and others now at grave risk, but I don’t know what to do. I don't know if there's anything I can do. I still care about her and knowing what she's doing has me in pieces. She's risking so much of what she and I helped to create for her, not to mention her own life.

[TootsiePeterson]

This will be lengthy, my apologies. In order for there to be proper feedback, this should be written with as much detail as I can give you right now. It is probably best to start in the beginning of the spring term of 2011.

I met my-ex in a music history proficiency exam which was taking place prior to the start of the spring 2011 semester while I was working towards my masters degree. I was immediately taken by this clearly intelligent, beautiful woman who had a sardonic wit about her that is so rare in most. I was seeing someone at the time and because of some changes in how I felt about things had taken place in my life with my son’s mother, my-ex was immediately only considered a friend. I saw to it we never did anything alone and I would only stop to visit with her on campus. We became friends quite easily and over the course of several weeks which became months, she would reveal little details about her and her past. When I found her, she was depending on a great number of things. She would disappear for a couple days at a time, and I learned later that she would keep some pills, a bottle of vodka, and a large pocket knife in her bag to use when she needed to while on campus. Some of these things I knew, some of these things I discovered, others she would tell me much later. What was clear to me in my interactions with her over our initial six months was that this was a woman with serious problems, had been seriously damaged, and was a greater danger to herself than anyone I had ever known. What I didn’t know about was the borderline. We began dating over the summer of 2011. It was only then that she revealed to me, almost completely, her affliction and her past relationships which she said almost all had some element of physical or emotional abuse. She told me that twenty minutes here or there with me talking had done more for her than years of therapy. I had noticed for less of the anything-goes-party-girl and possibly dangerous woman and saw her for what I thought (and still think) she really wanted to be, what she was always capable of being. Once I began to read and understand this disorder and attended a few of her therapy sessions, I realized I had to make a decision on what I was to do. I chose to continue with her. I cared about her very much and I began to take her more seriously than I had taken anyone else in my life with the exception of my son. I had seen the change in her and if I was one of the reasons for that change, I felt a deep responsibility to stay and not be frightened. My son was introduced to her and they got along reasonably well even though my-ex never had a fondness for children and their requirements.

That November, I was watching television when my-ex came to my house and asked me to marry her. She had asked me before if I thought she was the kind of girl someone would marry or if she was worth marrying and I told her that she was. It was true based on what I saw her become over the months. Her proposition came as a surprise to me and it was a bit scary but I accepted and we became married. Things were never quite easy, though. Even though almost all of her self destructive and dangerous behavior had subsided or disappeared completely, she was still prone to violent rages and destructive, frightening behavior. But knowing what I knew about the disorder, I stayed with her. I learned techniques in trying to help people in this condition and I did the best I could. It was extremely difficult to manage and it was made all the more difficult in that she ceased her therapy sessions which also meant a cessation of her medication. I would often make suggestions of her returning to a doctor but she would reveal reasons to me why she couldn’t or wouldn’t which, I wonder now, if they were manufactured reasons or not. I invested so much emotional energy in making this marriage work that I lost sight of myself in it. Counseling, therapy, group sessions, I tried them all to help me cope but also help me grow. Rages were common, destructive, and my efforts to create a constantly stable environment of support and care became my full-time job.

I graduated with my masters in the spring of 2012. Knowing my goal was to achieve a PhD, I had a choice. I could either leave to begin a new course of study, or I could wait. my-ex still had a year to go to complete her masters degree. I realized it would have been unfair at the highest level of me to insist she drop what she was doing to follow me. It would have been dangerous for me to leave her behind to achieve my degree, too. I chose what was best for her knowing there would be time enough for my goals later. I decided to stay with her and work in advertising while she completed her degree. Her last year was very difficult for both of us. Her beloved chocolate lab died at our home suddenly. I left work to console her and I risked my job to take it to her parents’ farm two hours away to bury it for her. She had several run-ins with faculty which I had to smooth over for her as I was on very good terms with the faculty there. A $1,000+ library fine had to be taken care of for a book she lost which was on loan to the university from another institution; I settled that for her. She worked three jobs at the same time and was completely exhausted. These weren’t necessary as I was making enough in advertising but she insisted. There were more things that I could reveal but I think you get the idea. Her last semester, she was so certain that she would not be able to get a job due to her disorder that she was considering going on disability and prior to that, she had contemplated going to a full-time inpatient facility for DBT but either time, money, or fear that doing that would appear on her permanent record and keep her from getting a teaching job kept that from happening. I completed her graduation paperwork, her resume, and her cover letters. I encouraged her to try and I found a job in Kentucky where one of the members of the search committee was a long-time friend of mine. She got the job and moved to Kentucky last July. We had considered my staying in Indiana to continue working while I tried to find a job in Kentucky; moving after a job was secured. But we both felt, considering her disorder, it would be better if I moved with her. Besides, we felt that my education, my-experience, and my professional demeanor, would make it easy for me to secure gainful employment quickly. We were wrong.

I moved to Kentucky two weeks after she moved down. I secured the rental truck and had everything from our house in Indiana moved to our new house in Kentucky. When I arrived, she had put everything it its place and I began to see a great new life starting for both of us. Now, I needed to get a job. One condition she gave me was that she was not going to be responsible for my child support. I agreed completely with her. After two months of looking and only receiving two interviews out of the twenty or thirty jobs I applied for, I began to worry that the only way I was going to ever make enough money to support my family was to get my PhD and teach at the university level. This would mean I would have to leave Kentucky, leaving her behind. I finally did find part time work at a Kay’s Jewelers in the mall. The pay was barely above minimum wage but it allowed me to pay my child support. Still, my-ex was working as a teacher and as a seamstress at nearly sixty hours a week and it was killing her. Seeing her like this, seeing my failure as a man and as a husband, compounded with the recent discovery of my mom’s cancer which would kill her faster than the doctors realized, was not only making me depressed, it was making me distant and I began to forget due to my own problems what I was supposed to do to help maintain a stable place for my-ex. It escaped me completely that every time I would bemoan our situation based on my failings and my one and only plan to leave to get my PhD that I was hammering the most dangerous trigger for someone with her condition. I did this almost every day from October until April 20th, when it was too late.

I began to notice changes in my-ex in November. They followed a gradual crescendo until late March of 2014 when something happened that made me, finally, realize something was seriously wrong. But I hadn’t yet realized that it was partly my fault and I was unprepared due to my own depression to effectively do anything for her. I got word from the company I now work for that they wanted to hire me in mid March. The pay was substantial and I began to think that maybe my biggest and best legacy was to be a present husband to my-ex and to be a good father who could support my son in the way he needed to be supported, to forget the life of a conductor; it was a selfish goal. By this time, as I wrote a moment ago, this realization came too late. The day after my mother died on my birthday, I found my-ex having sex with a student helper. I did everything I could think of to try and save her from herself. I undertook plans and strategies and actions that had many of my closest friends and family wondering if I, myself, had lost my senses even going so far as sacrificing everything I own, not taking anything in an impending divorce stating that she and I wouldn’t even have to try and come back together as husband and wife if she would just go get help. The only way I could explain my actions to them was to say, “If you honestly loved someone the way you’re supposed to love someone in marriage, as much as I love my one and only son, then what I am doing, what I’m trying to do, should not come into question. You act because you love. Because you made a solemn promise.” That was the only answer, or something like it, each time because it was the truth. I tried to enlist help from some of her friends and even her parents. I was the only one who was seeing what I was seeing. Neither of us had anyone in Kentucky so efforts were made over the phone, email, and Facebook by me to try and get others to see what I was seeing and hope that someone might convince her to slow down, see what wheels she was setting in motion, and get help. But she paid most of her attention to a handful of people who didn’t know of her disorder, hadn’t known her long, and gave her a very “you go girl” Thelma and Louise pep talk and she felt empowered, I think, in starting up again old habits that had been long left alone.

I am resigned to the fact that my-ex is an adult, disorder or not, and she is responsible for her actions. I had been improving over the last month. I still love her and I still missed her, but I was starting to heal until I got a phone call from a friend yesterday. He told me, “I talked to your ex a couple days ago. I’m having a hard time knowing how to deal with what she told me.” When I asked what he was talking about he said. “Well, she said she’s having sex with five or six different guys and they’re kind of all on a rotation. She called herself a ‘real whore’ and she sounded dead inside. It’s like she’s trying to fill a void or something.” Hearing this put me right back where I was back in April and May. Desperate to save her but I don’t know how. I can’t talk to her. Back when everything fell apart in April, when I learned she was buying a handgun and knowing about her past suicide threats from years ago, the last thing she needed was a handgun so I took out a protective order so she couldn’t purchase one. Doing that caused her to take a protective order on me because she thought the only reason I did it was to have to give testimony to my statement which would make her lose her job and she felt she could use it as leverage. I eventually dropped mine because I wanted to show her I wasn’t trying to do that, but was trying to protect both of us. She kept hers, though, because she felt that if I had one, I wouldn’t go to her school to tell her administrators about her disorder (which I could do by email or phone, anyway, so I didn’t see the point).

She needs help, she’s putting herself and others now at grave risk, but I don’t know what to do. I don't know if there's anything I can do. I still care about her and knowing what she's doing has me in pieces. She's risking so much of what she and I helped to create for her, not to mention her own life.

[elessar]

What was clear to me in my interactions with her over our initial six months was that this was a woman with serious problems, had been seriously damaged, and was a greater danger to herself than anyone I had ever known. What I didn’t know about was the borderline.

She told me that twenty minutes here or there with me talking had done more for her than years of therapy.

I would often make suggestions of her returning to a doctor but she would reveal reasons to me why she couldn’t or wouldn’t which, I wonder now, if they were manufactured reasons or not.

But she paid most of her attention to a handful of people who didn’t know of her disorder, hadn’t known her long, and gave her a very “you go girl” Thelma and Louise pep talk and she felt empowered, I think, in starting up again old habits that had been long left alone.

That is a sad and touching story buddy. I don't know how to quote individual sentences, so I have quoted them together. In the first sentence I quoted, it was a  we all miss, most of us on these boards. The second sentence about spending few minutes with you is better than a therapist, I heard it a hundred times with my ex who would say how talking to me is like therapy. I believe there are two reasons to it - 1. she is trying to pull you in, and making a plea to your knight in shining armor persona. You staying with her despite her  told her that you are a rescuer and fixer type (like me). 2. She says that because she truly believes it at that point. They all need therapy and love. Getting it from the same person is a bliss for them. They truly feel they found their savior and life partner who will take care of them and heal them.

She stopped going for therapy after she had you was probably because BPDs do not like to accept that there is something wrong with them. If they don't go for therapy, nothing is wrong with them. Plus she has you now. Its a bad, bad cycle. One would think they would go to therapy in a relationship so they can keep working on themselves. But once they have someone, they let go of their defenses because they feel secure. But once they let go of their defenses, they are triggered and then the relationship starts going downhill.

Finally, the most frustrating thing to me about BPD is their enablers who will egg them on towards their destructive behavior. Unless you are intimate with a BPD emotionally, like a parent, lover, or child, you do not see the disorder unless they are really low-functioning. And these enablers either have their own issues, or they are taken by the charming and narcissism of the BPD, and enable them. That is what happened to my ex from summer 2012 onwards. Till then she was a ill person, but the more she got involved with her female coworkers, she turned into a different person... .partying, drinking, histrionic and overtly narcissistic behaviors.

You have done everything possible. For most of us here, our pwBPD in our lives isn't even diagnosed. Yours was in therapy but stopped going. You can wish the best for her, but you cannot force her to get therapy. We all here wonder "what if we could convince our ex to go for therapy". From your story, it seems like going to therapy doesn't always help either.

All I can say is, heal yourself and take care of yourself. Do not let her walk over you. Even if she is back and you want her back, let her respect you. If she ever feels she can disrespect you, it is all over. They are children. Sometimes they need to be dealt with in a stern way. Unfortunately, we cannot do that to an adult, we cannot discipline an adult. But do not lose your self-respect to take care of her or help her, because if she sees that then she wouldn't care for you. So just focus on yourself for now, heal yourself, and get stronger. Take care buddy.

[winston72]

Hey TP... .thank you for telling your story.  It is helpful and instructive to read about it with some depth and detail. I am sorry for the pain and heartache from this relationship... .and for the struggles of your ex also.

You write that you are, ":)esperate to save her but I don’t know how."  And later, "She needs help, she’s putting herself and others now at grave risk, but I don’t know what to do. I don't know if there's anything I can do. I still care about her and knowing what she's doing has me in pieces. She's risking so much of what she and I helped to create for her, not to mention her own life."

I think you probably already know that there is not anything you can do or should do.  You were her caretaker for many years, her deliverer, her white knight, the one that helped to create a life for her.  That does not work.  It is not sustainable.  Such a realization would feel awful to me... .did and does feel awful to me as this type of behavior is so ingrained in me.  

It is true that the best course of action for you and for her is to live within your own boundaries, needs, hopes and desire and to allow her to do likewise... .even if that means she moves in patterns that are self-defeating.  It is so much easier said than done, but it still needs to be said!

[TootsiePeterson]

Thank you so much for the input so far.  The overall most important thing to me right now is her safety which I have no control on at all.  We live in a small town in western Kentucky and keeping five or six guys on a constant rotation isn't going to be easy to be kept a secret for long.  I worry about her health but I also worry about what could happen when a good ol' boy realizes he's one of many.  Then, of course, there's the fact that she's a teacher of kids 5-12.  What if one of these is a student, or parent, or coworker?  My friend who spoke to her told me that it's obvious to him from her tone and what she said that she's killed herself inside and is going through this rotation to not feel the emptiness.  I'm not saying I would take her back, not that it's impossible.  What I am saying is that I absolutely only care about her safety, never want her to get hurt through her actions or anyone else's (mine, even).  But it's clear that there will be a bottom hit at some point and depending on what that is, she may not make it.  Thus, my urgency and concern.

[elessar]

I completely agree. This disorder reminds me of Marilyn Monroe all the time. Today's psychs do say she has all the traits of BPD. And this is what I fear for my ex too, one day she will bring her suicidal thoughts to fruition, just like your ex. That helpless feeling absolutely sucks!

[winston72]

It is heart-wrenching and heart-breaking.  

Isn't it fair to say that your manner of active intervention from the beginning of the relationship ultimately did not have its desired effect?  She was not, ultimately, "saved."?  Swooping in to bail her out, even if from a distance or in a partial manner or just to "save her life" really is not helpful.  

The most affirmative, forward leaning, creative action you can take is to tend to yourself; your own needs and hopes. At the moment, you seem to be focused on her struggles, her needs, her problems, what you can do for her, how you can save her if only to prevent suicide... .this posture toward her, if acted upon, will not help her, and will not be good for you.

[winston72]

Just read Elessar's post... .I so share the sense of helplessness myself... .but isn't this an insight into how we derive our identity and value in such a relationship?  We think we are an essential part of bringing life to someone else?  That we are or can be an essential cog in their realization of their full self?  It just is not true.  And it reveals things about us... .I should say myself!  At a minimum for me, it is the pattern of turning away from myself and focusing on others as a means of avoiding things in me... .and lots of other stuff!

[TootsiePeterson]

It's so easy to say and so hard to do: Tend to oneself and let the former partner go on their dark path.  I made an appointment with a psychologist for Monday because my focus has become diverted and it's affecting my work somewhat.  Counseling was fine for a conversation, but it wasn't helping me resolve my sense of failure and helplessness and motivation to keep throwing life preserves at her whether she knew they were there or not.  After everything completely blew up on April 20th, I told some friends that I knew something like this would happen.  I never knew exactly what it would be but the pathology is pretty clear and I knew it would be one of three or four things.  Now that it's actually happening and doing so in a very destructive and soul-depleting way just creates a huge sense of desperation I don't know how to extinguish. 

[winston72]

For me, to do what we have been discussing was just about impossible.  It is that way for me because I did/do not have the internal resources to react otherwise.  I found identity, meaning, purpose, joy, excitement, vitality and life in "making a difference" for my loved one.  It was quite conscious on my part, even the assessment of the risk and rewards as you seem to have done.  In retrospect, I had/have such a variety of issues that rendered me incapable of finding fulfillment within myself and therefore within a healthy relationship.  I chose to give myself to someone who was not stable or healthy.  And then I was angry when that person hurt me.  Okay, that anger was justified, but the broader pattern needs exploration... .and that pattern was/is driven by some deep things in me.

Also hard to say, but the inability to extinguish the desperation might be the path and the motivation for you to address some deep issues within yourself. 

[woofhound]

I'm in an eerily similar situation. My ex left me over a fight she picked and has been having sex with multiple partners. She even hooked up with a guy that's got a pregnant fiancé. Its crazy. There must be some magic answer right? A magic answer is what I'm so desperate for... .

[TootsiePeterson]

I'm in an eerily similar situation. My ex left me over a fight she picked and has been having sex with multiple partners. She even hooked up with a guy that's got a pregnant fiancé. Its crazy. There must be some magic answer right? A magic answer is what I'm so desperate for... .

I'm not sure there's an answer.  For me, I can't do much since I dropped my restraining order and she didn't.  I can't even speak to her.  My friend who spoke to her is deeply concerned and he's going to call me later about some things.  I just hope it doesn't motivate me to try and reach out to her.  I asked him if he thought I should and he said that she's clearly very unstable right now and that he wouldn't recommend it.  When you can't help someone grab the parachute handle, you have to let them find it on their own or hit the ground.  I'm hoping she regains some moment of clarity and gets some help even if we don't get back together.  She's doing a Marilyn right now, I'm afraid.

[winston72]

Indeed... .a magic answer!  If only I had done something different, been more patient, been more stable, been more self assured, said things more clearly.  There must be a hidden lock... .and a secret key... .and once the match is made than happiness will flow!

Woofhound, I am so sorry you have to deal with that behavior.  It is really awful. 

TP... .her restraining order for you is... .a restraining order!  She does not want you to contact her.  In your shoes, I have historically said to myself, "that is not what she really wants... what she really wants and needs is for me to call her and help her!"  Why is it hard to take it at face value that she does not want you to contact her? 

[woofhound]

My friend, I couldn't possibly identify with you to a degree higher than that which I do right now. It's my ex knows I don't want her to hurt, so, in order to hurt me, she does everything she possibly can to make my pain greater... .Even if its dangerous to her directly. At first I was really jealous, but then I realized, that she's going to get herself pregnant or have a STD before she realizes that there's a real man that loves her.

[TootsiePeterson]

My friend, I couldn't possibly identify with you to a degree higher than that which I do right now. It's my ex knows I don't want her to hurt, so, in order to hurt me, she does everything she possibly can to make my pain greater... .Even if its dangerous to her directly. At first I was really jealous, but then I realized, that she's going to get herself pregnant or have a STD before she realizes that there's a real man that loves her.

That's where I'm at, too.  And Winston is right, also.  Our mutual friend called me about an hour ago and said that she is definitely seeing six people right now and seems to have no problem with the fact that: 1. She could now be a walking disease factory and; 2. That one of these people when they find out (in a town of 25,000 it's not if, it's when if we're talking about six people) could actually harm her physically.  But she's also convinced that because I caught her and know her disorder, that I am sure to go to her school and tell them about her, her condition, her addictions, and what she's doing so I am wearing the black hat and am pure evil and doesn't want to have anything to do with me.  She's selling sex now and she's getting what she's paying for.  It only helps a little but now I'm also kind of concerned for the health of some of these guys she's with.  Knowing one of them slightly, I'm kind of tempted to let him know but I'm not sure that's my place to do it.

[woofhound]

I've made the mistake of acting out of anger toward my ex. While we were going to counseling to resolve our problems she told me I was the love of her life, and would never do anything to hurt me blah blah blah... .Went to a friends house that night and told her she didn't want a committed relationship. A week later she cheated. I found out about everything on the same day... .I flew off the handle. I was absolutely crushed. The next day I called her boss and told her that she was using drugs. She works with mentally handicapped people and smokes weed before work. She's also drank on the job. I told her I didn't think that was right on several occasions.

I guess my point is that I regret lashing out.

I would reflect on my reasons for wanting to contact him.

Is it for her safety?

Is it for the guys safety?

Or is it to satisfy your (like mine) desire for revenge?

If it is the third I definitely wouldn't.

[TootsiePeterson]

I've made the mistake of acting out of anger toward my ex. While we were going to counseling to resolve our problems she told me I was the love of her life, and would never do anything to hurt me blah blah blah... .Went to a friends house that night and told her she didn't want a committed relationship. A week later she cheated. I found out about everything on the same day... .I flew off the handle. I was absolutely crushed. The next day I called her boss and told her that she was using drugs. She works with mentally handicapped people and smokes weed before work. She's also drank on the job. I told her I didn't think that was right on several occasions.

I guess my point is that I regret lashing out.

I would reflect on my reasons for wanting to contact him.

Is it for her safety?

Is it for the guys safety?

Or is it to satisfy your (like mine) desire for revenge?

If it is the third I definitely wouldn't.

I would never contact her boss.  She never thought she'd ever be a teacher because of her disorder.  Like I wrote in my original post, one of the reasons she never went to an inpatient care facility was that it might appear on her background check and it could be reason enough to not be hired.  As for the reasons you listed, it's kind of all of the above but her safety and the other guys' safety is 1 and 2.

[myself]

TP, it's not your job or responsibility to look out for other guys and their possible problems/mistakes. Are you going to continue being in her life just to help her with the fires she's starting? Who knows where that would lead, or how long it would last. Just know that you yourself would for sure get burned. If she's your ex, it might be best to walk away and stay away. It's not too late to get your own life back on track and keep it that way.

[Harri]

I have to agree with myself here.  It is not your responsibility to save the guys she is with nor is it your responsibility to save your ex.  You need to take care of yourself.  Be thankful she has a restraining order against you as crazy at that sounds.  Your hands are tied as far as she is concerned.  Where is your son during all of this?  You need to put him first and the last thing he needs is for his dad to be in jail or for you to re-invite this clearly disturbed person into his life.  Be a night for your son if you must. 

I know I sound harsh.  I am not at all unsympathetic to your pain.  I understand.  As someone looking from the outside in, it seems you were lucky enough to get off the crazy train.  Stop trying to get back on it.   You need to focus on you and your son.  And you need to protect yourself in case she really has painted you black and decides to really lash out at you. 

I would suggest in the future you tell any friends to *NOT* tell you about what your wife is doing.  You can not control her.  You can not fix her.   Another way to look at it is to think by leaving her to her own devices she will perhaps get back into therapy and on meds and that leaving her be is actually the best and kindest thing you can do for her.  You already tried to save her and you did for a while.  She knows somewhere inside her what she needs to do to help herself.  Let her find it... .if she does it on her own she may actually be able to save herself.

[TootsiePeterson]

TP, it's not your job or responsibility to look out for other guys and their possible problems/mistakes. Are you going to continue being in her life just to help her with the fires she's starting? Who knows where that would lead, or how long it would last. Just know that you yourself would for sure get burned. If she's your ex, it might be best to walk away and stay away. It's not too late to get your own life back on track and keep it that way.

It's not too late, you're right.  I know.  It's hard not to see what's going on, know that nothing good will come of it, and do nothing.  We had built a great life, she got the job she always knew she couldn't get, things were falling right into place perfectly and now all of that might end up being completely ruined and it doesn't have to be.  I know I have greater benefit in letting this time in her life end the way it's going to end.  I am genuinely afraid for her and what will happen when she is inevitably found out or gets a disease.  It never had to be this way.  That's the tragedy.

[myself]

My ex is the same. When things are going well, she sabotages it.

Self destructive in the guise of being free. Hurting other people, too.

Have you read the following? It may be of some help.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

[TootsiePeterson]

*sigh*  You're right, you're right.  It's just so sad.  It's the sadness that keeps me thinking there's a way and reason to try and resuscitate this if possible.  I know that if that were to happen, the whole pattern may just start over again.  Any guy she's with next (or guys in this case) is probably going to have to be able to deal with an extremely damaged person after what she's doing to herself finally registers with her.  I just hope she doesn't get involved with a student.

[TootsiePeterson]

And to answer your question about my son, he lives with his mother with whom I have a great relationship.  We do it for him and he's the better for it.  He's a great kid.

[Tausk]

Hi TP:

Thanks for sharing.  It's so very hard.  It's so very painful.  

It's clear that you are a sincere person of character and also care deeply for your ex.

And that just makes it more sad.  And we want to help.   We really do.  It's similar to when we have a loved one who is an alcoholic and we want to help.

But in this case, it's worse, and there's really nothing you can do.   An alcoholic's issue with between the individual and the alcohol/herself.  

But the Disorder is relational.  So the issue here is between the Disorder and all her bf's past, present and future.  You are an ex.  So, you are part of the problem and in part the addictive substance.  So the dynamic with you and the Disorder can only make things worse.   It's not right.  It's not what we wanted. But the Disorder is not fair or just.

Even if you rescue her for the moment, it means that you've only made things worse because when she cycles down the next time, it will be worse.   And if you do rescue her today, she will recycle down tomorrow.  You know she never changes due to other people's interaction.  She can only change when she wants to.  

If you were a family member who she grew up with, it might be a little different.  Might be... .not necessarily.  

But as an ex, the only thing that you can do that will benefit her is the leave her alone.  She needs to learn more functional behaviors in order to survive the Disorder.  If you rescue her, you pull her farther from learning those behaviors.  And as she gets older, it will get harder.

So if it helps, know that at this point any interaction with you and her, lessen the chances that she will learn to cope with her Disorder.  

I know you want to help.  I know it's not right that you can't.  But you are an ex. So the Disorder has you labelled as something very different from the rest of the world.   Which is unfair, and detrimental to your ex's happiness.  But the Disorder does not want happiness, and any interaction with you feeds the Disorder.

You must let her learn coping behaviors on her own.

That is her only chance.

You must for her sake, disappear.

And I know how caustically cold that feels.  But it is the truth.

In support

T

[TootsiePeterson]

Hi TP:

Thanks for sharing.  It's so very hard.  It's so very painful.  

It's clear that you are a sincere person of character and also care deeply for your ex.

And that just makes it more sad.  And we want to help.   We really do.  It's similar to when we have a loved one who is an alcoholic and we want to help.

But in this case, it's worse, and there's really nothing you can do.   An alcoholic's issue with between the individual and the alcohol/herself.  

But the Disorder is relational.  So the issue here is between the Disorder and all her bf's past, present and future.  You are an ex.  So, you are part of the problem and in part the addictive substance.  So the dynamic with you and the Disorder can only make things worse.   It's not right.  It's not what we wanted. But the Disorder is not fair or just.

Even if you rescue her for the moment, it means that you've only made things worse because when she cycles down the next time, it will be worse.   And if you do rescue her today, she will recycle down tomorrow.  You know she never changes due to other people's interaction.  She can only change when she wants to.  

If you were a family member who she grew up with, it might be a little different.  Might be... .not necessarily.  

But as an ex, the only thing that you can do that will benefit her is the leave her alone.  She needs to learn more functional behaviors in order to survive the Disorder.  If you rescue her, you pull her farther from learning those behaviors.  And as she gets older, it will get harder.

So if it helps, know that at this point any interaction with you and her, lessen the chances that she will learn to cope with her Disorder.  

I know you want to help.  I know it's not right that you can't.  But you are an ex. So the Disorder has you labelled as something very different from the rest of the world.   Which is unfair, and detrimental to your ex's happiness.  But the Disorder does not want happiness, and any interaction with you feeds the Disorder.

You must let her learn coping behaviors on her own.

That is her only chance.

You must for her sake, disappear.

And I know how caustically cold that feels.  But it is the truth.

In support

T

I feel like Carrie Fisher's character in When Harry Met Sally:  "I know, I know. You're right." (but I'm probably going to do it anyway)

I know you're right, Tausk.  I know it all the way through my bones.  But I saw this coming and I told anyone who knew us both to watch for this moment because I knew it was coming.  The pathology of a borderline is simply too cut and dry.  I didn't know what it would be, but I knew it would be something and the degree of which she would engage in whatever self-destructive behavior she chose would be more intense than at any previous time she split.  Because of this, and because I am a "feeling" person, it is really damn difficult to sit and be silent.  If I were a vindictive person, I'd point and laugh and say "I told you so" to all those who thought I was wrong.  If I were a vengeful person, I'd go to the school with all the messages she and I shared about her disorder, her desire to research hospitals around the country for DBT, and her descriptions of what her disorder makes her do and think.  If I were an indifferent person, I'd move on to the next one.  Truth is, I've been on two lunch dates since and figured pretty quickly it's either too soon and/or I'm still too in love with her to try again because it just simply felt wrong to do it.  But I am a person of emotion and empathy and it goes against my soul to do nothing even though the academic, objective person I've groomed myself to be knows I must stay away for my own sake if nothing else.  I just don't know if I have the strength to simply do nothing but I know I have to try. 

[Tausk]

But I am a person of emotion and empathy and it goes against my soul to do nothing even though the academic, objective person I've groomed myself to be knows I must stay away for my own sake if nothing else.  I just don't know if I have the strength to simply do nothing but I know I have to try.

You are not doing nothing.  You are staying away. You are giving her the only thing of benefit that you have to offer.  You are moving away from the path of further damaging her.

You may not be doing what you want.   But by staying away you are doing what you say you want to do... .and that is to help her.

Are you sincere in your desire to help?  or is about pacifying your own pain and void? 

[TootsiePeterson]

But I am a person of emotion and empathy and it goes against my soul to do nothing even though the academic, objective person I've groomed myself to be knows I must stay away for my own sake if nothing else.  I just don't know if I have the strength to simply do nothing but I know I have to try.

You are not doing nothing.  You are staying away. You are giving her the only thing of benefit that you have to offer.  You are moving away from the path of further damaging her.

You may not be doing what you want.   But by staying away you are doing what you say you want to do... .and that is to help her.

Are you sincere in your desire to help?  or is about pacifying your own pain and void? 

Quite honestly, I was doing fine being mostly alone until last week.  I could sense I was getting better with some days having more improvement than others.  I was still not ready to see anyone else at all but the fact that I tried, I think, makes me think that my willingness to move on shows some improvement.  Heck, I lived in a hotel thinking I'd get that "Let's try again" phone call instead of finding a place of my own for weeks.  When I heard what I had last week, it brought back the rescuer in me and that certainly brought back the notion that I rescued her once, she's not going to be rescued by the half dozen guys she's with now (and if one of them finds out and isn't understanding, Lord help her), she has nobody else in this town because her co-workers don't know the disorder, we aren't from here and are still new to the town, and those guys certainly don't think there's a problem, so, yeah, I'm back in white knight mode.  Like I told my friend who told me (because he's probably the only one talking to her that knows us both now), "Her safety is the most important thing.  If you can break through to her intellect, maybe you can appeal to her and convince her to get help because that's what she needs most.  Her getting back with me is way down the list and it probably wouldn't and shouldn't happen."  - or something like that.

[TootsiePeterson]

UPDATE:

After finding out the news I wrote about in the first post in this topic, things have surfaced.  I am staying out of it as best I can but I have finally decided to write her parents.  They may or may not take action as they may believe the here and now truth or they may believe they may not.  Who knows?  She does seem to have many sexual partners indeed.  When I was told, I was out of town.  Now that I'm back, and I see her frequent the area around where I live, I can see it with my eyes and it's heartbreaking.  Before you think, "stalk much," it should be pointed out our town is fairly small (only 25,000 people) and two of the men live within a block from where I live which is in a pretty rough part of town known for shootings, meth, and prescription drugs being sold and used.  There are arrests in the neighborhood around me every night.  Many various cars come and go from at least one of these places, I can see one from my balcony.  I figure it's only a matter of time before she gets caught.  I just hope I'm not around to see it when it happens.  I am resigned to the fact there is nothing I can do.  That a borderline sometimes doesn't know they need help or they're in trouble.  And that, as it has been pointed out here, that many times they have to hit absolute bottom.  This is a young 28 year old teacher who had a bright future, had a clean life, had a safe home, and a loving husband.  It's such a shame.  I hope that it doesn't affect her catastrophically when the rock bottom is eventually met.

[TootsiePeterson]

UPDATE:

After finding out the news I wrote about in the first post in this topic, things have surfaced.  I am staying out of it as best I can but I have finally decided to write her parents.  They may or may not take action as they may believe the here and now truth or they may believe they may not.  Who knows?  She does seem to have many sexual partners indeed.  When I was told, I was out of town.  Now that I'm back, and I see her frequent the area around where I live, I can see it with my eyes and it's heartbreaking.  Before you think, "stalk much," it should be pointed out our town is fairly small (only 25,000 people) and two of the men live within a block from where I live which is in a pretty rough part of town known for shootings, meth, and prescription drugs being sold and used.  There are arrests in the neighborhood around me every night.  Many various cars come and go from at least one of these places, I can see one from my balcony.  I figure it's only a matter of time before she gets caught.  I just hope I'm not around to see it when it happens.  I am resigned to the fact there is nothing I can do.  That a borderline sometimes doesn't know they need help or they're in trouble.  And that, as it has been pointed out here, that many times they have to hit absolute bottom.  This is a young 28 year old teacher who had a bright future, had a clean life, had a safe home, and a loving husband.  It's such a shame.  I hope that it doesn't affect her catastrophically when the rock bottom is eventually met.

ADDENDUM:

I forgot to mention that this morning around 12:30 or so, my friend who initially told me the bad news called me in a fit.  She was threatening to take a bottle of sleeping pills.  He's in the military and takes suicide threats very seriously.  He told me to call 911.  I told him that I can't.  That if I call, it could be construed as me harassing her.  She called him, he should call, so he did.  I am putting up hard money that I'll get a call from my attorney saying that she told her attorney I called 911 on them.  According to my friend, I am now painted as black as anyone can be painted.  Oh well.  What a shame.  What a mess.

[Harri]

Hello. 

I am not trying to pick on you here, truly, I just do not think you are thinking clearly about things.

You told your friend you can't call 911 (tho why he called you first is beyond me) because it would be construed as harassment. 

So tell me, what do you think her lawyer is going to say about a letter you write to her parents?

If you have not already sent the letter, I would NOT send it.

Next time (and I hope here is not a next time) call 911.  If your friend triangulates you again, about anything, tell him to stop. 

I wish you the very best in this painful and difficult situation.

[TootsiePeterson]

Hello. 

I am not trying to pick on you here, truly, I just do not think you are thinking clearly about things.

You told your friend you can't call 911 (tho why he called you first is beyond me) because it would be construed as harassment. 

So tell me, what do you think her lawyer is going to say about a letter you write to her parents?

If you have not already sent the letter, I would NOT send it.

Next time (and I hope here is not a next time) call 911.  If your friend triangulates you again, about anything, tell him to stop. 

I wish you the very best in this painful and difficult situation.

I see what you mean.  He called 911 after I told him I couldn't but he didn't know where she was so I told him I would call them and let them know where she lived and where I last saw her that day.  I did send the letter and I have resolved that the situation is regrettable, that she has to recognize on her own that her career, life, and safety (and potentially freedom) is in jeopardy, and there's nothing anyone can do to show this to her; she has to do it on her own.   

I'm going out of town a couple days to flush this out of my head.