A basket case before breakfast

[mama72]

So my BPDd17 first day of Senior year was this morning. She is at her dad's house this week, but agreed to stop by to get our annual First Day pictures of her and pics with her sis. She did come by, but was late, and seemed annoyed and was very distant. I think it hurt her little sis's feelings too. I wanted to give her a big hug, tell her good luck, and that I loved her. But, I could tell that this was not the morning to do it. I just made me so sad that this is where we are at. Again, not the picture I had in my head for so many years, as to how this milestone would play out. I cried all the way home after dropping my younger dd off at school.

I put this morning's picture with her picture from her first day of Kindergarten. It just hit me so hard. That this sweet, kind, respective little girl has been turned into this distant, hurtful young woman.

She is mad at me because of a text conversation we had a couple nights ago. She was demanding that I tell her why I thought she was gay. What my "hypothesis" is. I knew she was baiting me.  I do have my own thoughts, but told her I am not willing to share them. That is does not matter what I think and that I love her. I told her I don't love my gay daughter, I don't love my straight daughter, I just love my daughter. But, she just kept saying if I don't tell her why I think she is gay, I will be missing out on a lot of moments in her life. Marriage, grandchildren.  I asked if she was giving this "ultimatum" to all of the family, or just me? She never answered.

Now, I do have my own thoughts why she is gay and it does have to do with her BPD. It is long and involved. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But my mother's intuition has rarely (perhaps never) been wrong, and my intuition is telling me that she is not a lesbian. I don't like to discuss it with her because my words get twisted and I get called names.

I know I am not being as validating as I could be, but I don't know how to validate without being dishonest with myself? Looking back, I should have defused the conversation instead of defending myself. The conversation was started because she sent me a link to a book about parenting gay children, I should have just said "thanks" and have that be the end of it. I don't think she realizes how many books I have read over the years to try and figure her out!

I do not like her girlfriend. She had given her drugs, has done drug with her, has encouraged her to lie to her family and has put hickey's and bite marks on my daughter. I would dislike a boy that did this, but my dd uses that fact that she is a girl and accused me of being a homophobe to try and get around all of the terrible things they have done. It is a very unhealthy relationship. Her T and  my T agree with this.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent….again. I already feel better!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[.cup.car]

I echo your sentiments. My senior year got really messed up when my mom's BPD caused her to irrationally fear for my well-being at all hours, even if I was in my rom sleeping. The situation snowballed and even five years later im still upset I never had a traditional senior year. I never expected it to go the way it did.

You're right about her sexual orientation. With my ex, she's on dating sites as a lesbian. Facebook? Lesbian. Instagram? Lesbian. Even in her bedroom while we were intimate, I'd look over her shoulder and see a huge FHM'S HOTTEST GIRLS OF 2012 poster. Rainbow flags, the whole deal. At the end of the day, I'm still a guy shes riding.

They use a falsw sexual orientation to try and achieve a sense of belonging to avoid feeling abandoned or isolated. It's not like theres a "straight pride" parade.

[HealingSpirit]

I wanted to give her a big hug, tell her good luck, and that I loved her. But, I could tell that this was not the morning to do it. I just made me so sad that this is where we are at. Again, not the picture I had in my head for so many years, as to how this milestone would play out.

The pain of this situation resonates with me in a BIG way.  It hurts so much to be rejected when we offer love and seek connection.  I can't tell you how many moments in my DD's life have not panned out the way I had always anticipated!   

She is mad at me because of a text conversation we had a couple nights ago. She was demanding that I tell her why I thought she was gay. What my "hypothesis" is. I knew she was baiting me.  I do have my own thoughts, but told her I am not willing to share them. That it does not matter what I think and that I love her. I told her I don't love my gay daughter, I don't love my straight daughter, I just love my daughter.

I've been "caught" by the "bait" as well.  I have given similar answers to my DD when she pulls the "I'm gay" card on me.  Like you, I've told her I really don't care what her orientation is.  I just love her and I want her to be happy.  That isn't what she wants to hear, and I don't know what she DOES want to hear, or I would say it. (As long as it is true for me.)

My DH sees me getting hooked and calls me out on it, but my logical brain just wants to provide a rational answer to the question.  But apparently, rational answers are not what our DD's are seeking when they throw the hook at us.  Do you have any guesses as to what your DD is REALLY seeking?  I'm as stumped as you are.

I know I am not being as validating as I could be, but I don't know how to validate without being dishonest with myself? Looking back, I should have defused the conversation instead of defending myself. The conversation was started because she sent me a link to a book about parenting gay children, I should have just said "thanks" and have that be the end of it. I don't think she realizes how many books I have read over the years to try and figure her out! 

Don't beat yourself up, Mama72.  We all have 20/20 hindsight.  I believe wholeheartedly that we ALL do the best we can with the skills, knowledge, and resources we have at any given moment.   And regarding the parenting and self-help books... .You should see my bookcase too!     I'll bet if we put all our books together here, we could open a serious parenting library!

I echo your sentiments. My senior year got really messed up when my mom's BPD caused her to irrationally fear for my well-being at all hours, even if I was in my rom sleeping. The situation snowballed and even five years later im still upset I never had a traditional senior year. I never expected it to go the way it did.

I'm so sorry cup.car!  I'm glad you're here getting support for yourself.  You have your whole life ahead of you, and it's great that you're working on these issues NOW!  You still have a chance for a very happy, successful life.

One of my friends' mother has BPD, and my friend never got help for herself.  She eventually became so messed up in her 50s, I sadly had to terminate the friendship because she started causing danger for me and my family. (My friend let her own DD16 bring home men she met on the internet.  She brought home a 22yo who claimed to be on disability from the military.  My "friend" left her DD16 alone with the guy 4 days in a row while she was at work.  He used his phone to photograph/video them having sex.  THEN, they asked my DD if she could go meet him.  We met him when they brought her home and DH and I instantly knew the guy was bad news.  But we didn't know he was a pervert until he started "sexting" my DD the next day and threatening her.  I went straight to the police and the guy is now in prison.  He had tons of child porn on his phone.  ICK!  But, I can't remain friends with my friend anymore after that.  She has no boundaries and no common sense.) 

So, again, I'm VERY glad YOU are getting support and help for yourself!  You can heal from the trauma you grew up with, if you're willing to do the work.   (My friend was not.)

They use a false sexual orientation to try and achieve a sense of belonging to avoid feeling abandoned or isolated. It's not like theres a "straight pride" parade.

I think you're absolutely right about this!  My DD claims to be Bisexual or Lesbian on any given day.  She'll say whichever one meets the purpose of getting maximum attention from those she is with.  She wants to move in with her male BF, but she gets terribly offended and jealous when her female friend (with whom she's had "relations" starts dating a male.  It does seem to be more about ways to keep everyone attached to her, than about the actual orientation.  As her mother, I don't care which way she goes.  I just want her to be happy.

[SeaSprite]

This seems to be a big part of the identity issues in BPD yes? My daughter came out as gay, then recanted, is maybe bi? She's had sexual relationships with both girls and boys, but the girls are on the down low, they aren't out about it and they all also have relationships with boys.

My SD was even more extreme, she came out as gay, had while she had a serious girlfriend she came out as trans, and was angry with the gf for not wanting her as a man. (GF was lesbian, not bi, so it seemed reasonable to me). Then after changing her name and being angry when we supported everything but urged her to go slow with medical interventions because it seems sudden, she went into therapy, and suddenly went back to her girl name and wearing dresses. She declines to talk about it, which we respect. I imagine she's embarrassed because she was really looking for a fight and a cause.

I think you are right not to make it a thing. With my d, (the one giving us so much grief with her pregnancy and her older man) I usually use gender neutral terms when talking about her future, like partner or spouse, as in I hope you find a partner who you are nice to and they are nice to you back.

BPD seems to drive the to find something we don't want, and do that thing. Hey, maybe acting homophobic would have been better. Whatever you do, don't date girls. Then she'd have a girlfriend and wouldn't be pregnant.

[theplotthickens]

My dd decided she was gay after being in treatment where more than half of the girls in her group were lesbians.  Then, when she is around straight girls she decided she is straight.  I don't think she is really that picky - she just wants to lose herself in another person.

When she is around thugs, she acts thug, and when she is around good girls, she acts good.  She has no identity of her own.  She imitates whoever she is around.  This is a BPD  hallmark, for sure.

[mama72]

Do you have any guesses as to what your DD is REALLY seeking?  I'm as stumped as you are.

I have a few guesses. 1) She was feeling up for a fight, and I am the one she picks one with. She was getting frustrated because I was not taking the bait. 2) She wants to trick me into saying something that she could use against me in the future. She is very good at twisting what I say. 3) She wants to feel supported. But, she is unable to say how I can do that.

I don't know why she is seeking my opinion on this. I have made clear my opinions on drugs, she ignored them. I have made clear my opinion on the importance of truth, she continues to lie. I have made clear my opinion on promiscuity, she has ignored them. I have made clear my opinion of participating in church, in therapy and taking her meds. Again, all ignored. Why is my opinion of why she is "gay" so important? Doesn't add up.

BPD seems to drive the to find something we don't want, and do that thing. Hey, maybe acting homophobic would have been better. Whatever you do, don't date girls. Then she'd have a girlfriend and wouldn't be pregnant.

Ain't that the truth, SeaWalker! It seems she is trying so hard to do exactly what I don't want her to! She has called me a homophobe and bigot repeatably. I told her I am not scared of homosexuals, that is have many more things to be scared of.


I think there is a narcissistic component going on here? She thinks she is so special and such a martyr, because she is "gay". She has always loved being labeled, to have something identify her. Vegetarian. Liberal. Rebellious. Gay. Radical feminist. It is so tiring. I just want to say that your sexuality does not make you any more special than anyone else. That would really set her off, I am afraid. I told her that I

don't love my gay daughter, I don't love my straight daughter, I just love my daughter. Not good enough.

[mama72]

When she is around thugs, she acts thug, and when she is around good girls, she acts good.  She has no identity of her own.  She imitates whoever she is around.  This is a BPD  hallmark, for sure.

My dd, to a tee. She wants validation for "who she is" and for her "identity". How can I validate something that I don't believe to be genuine or that I know is going to change the minute I validate it?

It makes me sad that she is so confused all the time. What chaos that must be.

[theplotthickens]

I think you live your values, and she can live hers.  You are so right on... .your opinion and approval are not needed.  She is baiting you, for sure!  Typical Catch-22. I would simply not have that conversation... .keep up the broken record.  Are we having fun yet?

[SeaSprite]

Mama, I just wrote almost the same thing on the thread about my pregnant daughter, about how all of my rules and values, which I think are pretty simple and straightforward, and sort of boil down to the golden rule and respecting others rights, and she goes the opposite way on almost every one of them.

I was a rebellious teen so I understand the impulse, but this motivation looks different.

My SD is starting to outgrow the baiting, (she has traits if not the disorder), but she used to be a pro at laying tripwires around gender identity and sexual orientation. It was hard for her, because her family is all on board with LGBT equal rights and so on, so she had to work really hard to find tests we would fail. But since there are so many facets to the issue, and politically correct language is a moving target, she could pounce on the wrong word or phrase. She got mad and stormed off when her dad used the term "man rules" to describe the cultural norms of men in his experience. It was insulting because men and women aren't supposed to be different I think. (She was in an androgynous phase).

She's been in a lot of therapy, and it seems to be helping a lot. She is much easier to be around, and seems happier. We are still in the habit of being on guard with her, but its still a lot better.

There is a reason there are so many books about BPD that have something about walking on eggshells in the title.

[js friend]

In the short amount of time my dd19 was in t she said that i had made unfounded judgements remarks about her or groups of people.i knew this wasnt true as Iam not a judgmental person who holds those beliefs, but she was adamant about it and by then she had got ts attention  and t would go on and about it trying to get me to admit i had said those horrible things

.Now when i think about it makes sense that dd was probably projecting her own feelings onto me.Most of the time my dd seems to hate everything and everyone, including herself  but she will never admit it... .So projection is probably easier for her than face her own reality. DD  IS the angry, judgemental and jealous person she accuses me of being, who looks down her nose at others who are doing well or are happy, and  has a knack of always accusing others of bad behaviour without any proof so why should this be any different.if my dd Had it down in text would have been so much easier to prove to others that i  said those things or held those beliefs so my guess mama72 is that is why your dd is adamant in a response and definatley baiting you. She wants to know your opinion but doesnt  know how to sit down and have a mature converstation about it with you without getting angry. Why should it matter anyway, if you are not making a big deal of it then why is she.Sometimes i think our kids want to play into this my family have rejected me theory... .without it they cant portray themselves as victims.

Our kids are so smart and our words or actions can be twisted so easily, or interpreted the way they want to hear them.

[jellibeans]

js friend... .I can relate to this... .my dd projects on to be all the things she is feeling. I have seen this time and time again. When she accuses me of something I always try to think what is behind the statement. I think at times they are jsut trying to rid themselves of pain and hurt

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SeaSprite]

.Sometimes i think our kids want to play into this my family have rejected me theory... .without it they cant portray themselves as victims.

Our kids are so smart and our words or actions can be twisted so easily, or interpreted the way they want to hear them.

This is very true. My SD and her mother do this with my h, painting him as a deadbeat dad (he supports his kids and his ex... .ex never had to work, and owns her own house car and yacht, SD went to a private college on the east coast all expenses paid by her dad). SD is starting to ease up, I think she is seeing him as a more caring person than she used to.

My D16 ran away because she "can't stay here" we are always scolding and judging. Her older sister (20) thinks she's being a selfish idiot, she told her if she ruins moms life (by leaving me to pick up the pieces and raise the grandchild) she'll not be able to forgive her. And my older d does not usually talk in such dramatic terms, she is weirdly level headed for her age.

They just need... .i don't know... .a cause? A campaign? To be a martyr? Life is so hard and empty, and they need something to fight for, but they don't know what.

[theplotthickens]

They just need... .i don't know... .a cause? A campaign? To be a martyr? Life is so hard and empty, and they need something to fight for, but they don't know what.

You are really on to something, SeaSprite.  I was thinking about what would be the positive side of this?  Being a humanitarian?  A political strategist or lobbyist?  Working with Peace Corps? 

Turning that trait into something beautiful would be a win-win.  I am going to take a nugget from this, and get my bum going on volunteer hours for my teen.  I have been meaning to do it, but life is chaotic and I have been given over to the tyranny of the immediate.

I have a friend who is involved in lobbying against and fighting human trafficking, and there is a large church near us who is involved in helping girls who have been trafficked.  My dd has been interested in this cause for a while...   I wonder if helping them find a cause to fight where they can make a real difference could be a turning point in their lives, and be a gift to others.

It sure seems like they are going to fight one way or another.  Thanks for that insight!

[HealingSpirit]

In the short amount of time my dd19 was in t she said that i had made unfounded judgements remarks about her or groups of people.i knew this wasnt true as Iam not a judgmental person who holds those beliefs, but she was adamant about it and by then she had got ts attention  and t would go on and about it trying to get me to admit i had said those horrible things

UGH!  My DD17 does this too!  Fortunately, our current T knows me very well, so he KNOWS she is projecting.  Why is it that so many therapists can't follow the first rule of medicine:  FIRST do no harm?  We've had our share of bad therapists, and it makes me all the more grateful we now have a good one.

Now when i think about it makes sense that dd was probably projecting her own feelings onto me.Most of the time my dd seems to hate everything and everyone, including herself  but she will never admit it... .So projection is probably easier for her than face her own reality. DD  IS the angry, judgemental and jealous person she accuses me of being, who looks down her nose at others who are doing well or are happy, and  has a knack of always accusing others of bad behaviour without any proof so why should this be any different.

You've just described my DD17 too!  My DD's projection and cognitive dysregulation have become my worst challenges with her.  This week, my DD is visiting my sister at the beach. My sister overheard DD talking to her BF after I had just gotten off the phone with DD.  I told her since things have been very slow at my work, my paychecks have been short, so we need to try to save money.  (I work in my dad's dental office, and it seems everybody is on vacation this summer, so we've been going home early for weeks and I've had several unplanned days off because there were no patients.)  DD told her BF, "My mom has been ditching work to go shopping, so she won't give me any money."  And her BF buys her story hook, line, and sinker! Soo frustrating!

SeaSprite wrote:

They just need... .i don't know... .a cause? A campaign? To be a martyr? Life is so hard and empty, and they need something to fight for, but they don't know what.

I agree, if we could just figure out a way to channel their energy into something constructive! 

[mama72]

The smear campaigns my dd have brought against me have been saddening for multiple reasons. One that stings is that I miss her old friends. Our house was the house the kids came to for sleepovers, after school visits, before and after dances. I know now, that these kids must think I am a abusive, homophobic witch. I hope I am invited to their graduation parties, weddings, etc, but am not holding my breath. I miss them.

I always forget about the possibility of my dd projecting, but looking back, I can see that happening. I need to learn better to recognize it and handle it better.

My dd was volunteering a bit towards the end of the school year last year, and she seemed more upbeat after she did it. Giving back and helping others can really put things into perspective. She does do service hours through school, but really needs to do more on her own. Something else to work on, even as a family.

[.cup.car]

I have a friend who is involved in lobbying against and fighting human trafficking, and there is a large church near us who is involved in helping girls who have been trafficked.  My dd has been interested in this cause for a while...   I wonder if helping them find a cause to fight where they can make a real difference could be a turning point in their lives, and be a gift to others.

I don't recommend doing this. Like their sexual "identity", pwBPD sometimes latch onto these activist/social justice groups not because they believe in the cause, but to find a sense of belonging. And let's be realistic: How long until she begins using the church program solely to hook up with the other guys/girls that volunteer there? How long until people who are genuinely there to help begin leaving because "I can't deal with ______'s drama." It's not a stretch to imagine that scenario arising.

I'll bring up a very recent example - Zoe Quinn. A female video game developer suffering from BPD who has come under a lot of fire recently for sleeping around in exchange for positive press about her new game. She identifies as a feminist, actively promotes modern feminism, but the moment rumors about her infidelity broke, she instead guilt-tripped her fellow activists/feminists (all met through the aforementioned groups because she "wanted to fit in" into covering up the story... .Which they did a poor job of because unlike her, they were there to promote a good cause and not "just to find something to do" and cause drama.

The smear campaigns my dd have brought against me have been saddening for multiple reasons. One that stings is that I miss her old friends. Our house was the house the kids came to for sleepovers, after school visits, before and after dances. I know now, that these kids must think I am a abusive, homophobic witch. I hope I am invited to their graduation parties, weddings, etc, but am not holding my breath. I miss them.

I feel terrible reading posts like this; I bought into the smear campaigns while I was with my ex, and only after all was said and done did I get conformation from her younger sister that it was all a gigantic lie.

We don't buy into the lies because we're weak people, we buy into them because they're spun to us in a way that makes them feel tangible (and I'm comfortable sharing examples over PM if anyone is curious). I knew my ex was a bit of a spoiled brat, and I knew emotionally she had a few screws loose. I knew her dad made a lot of money and worked a very stressful job. When she first started opening up to me about the perceived abuse, it wasn't all that surprising. Unfortunately, people like me get stuck in a spot where we can't do anything productive with the situation. We are afraid to go to the police and butt-in on somebody else's family drama (even though our concern is genuine), and we're afraid to poke holes in their story in fear of the inevitable meltdown it'll cause. Half the threads in this forum are literally "my daughter's boyfriend got angry at her/left her and now she's threatening to kill herself." Most of us feel bad about the mere possibility of that situation occurring, so we choose to let it all play out.

We basically can't do anything other than ride the wave. The prettier the face, the steadier we stand on the surfboard while the coast rapidly approaches.

[SeaSprite]

Mama and cup... .this explains why my d doesn't hang out w friends at my house the way she used to, or the way big sister does.

So sad. She needs to paint me as evil, her family as horrible, which is hard to do in front of me.

I know she's doing this with the bf.

I wonder what the friends and friends parents think about our family!

Glad I don't have any more kids in public schools, my PTA mom rep is probably trashed.

I've been cleaning out her room today, since she's run away for now, I figure I don't need to live with the pig sty. I've found alcohol bottles hidden in tubs in the back of her closet and e cig paraphernalia. And letters and journals about how she can't wait to marry the bf and start her life with him, and how I'm always ruining everything by having stupid rules, and how when she finally leaves I'll know I drove her away and I can go to hell, and live happy knowing I never did anything to help her.

Um... .Ok.

I feel like a horrible mother, but right now I almost hope she doesn't come home.

So tired of it all.

[HealingSpirit]

I feel like a horrible mother, but right now I almost hope she doesn't come home.

So tired of it all.

 I know what you mean!  I think we should start a horrible mother club.  We're all members anyway.   

[jellibeans]

I think we all need to really understand what is going on when our kids say terrible things to us like "I hate you" etc... .I really don't beleive for a second she hates me. When she says these things she is usually at her worse and is struggling a great deal. Take it as a sign that she is going through a tough time. Don't take it personally.

I like the point about friends hanging out at our house... .I think that is very valid. My dd wants to present me as evil to all her friends so she doesn't usually hang out here but recently she has had friends here and I see that as a positive step forward. I never really thought of this angle but I think it is true. How can she push the blame to me if her friends are allowed to see I can be pretty nice.