Do they remember?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Do they even remember the good times, the happy moments with us nons? Or do they completely block it out?

Finding it hard to imagine that those amazing memories that haunt me are just lost on her tonight.

[KrisK7]

Do they even remember the good times, the happy moments with us nons? Or do they completely block it out?

Finding it hard to imagine that those amazing memories that haunt me are just lost on her tonight.

[Vatz]

I can't tell you for sure what's going through her mind.

Best not to think about it. You'll never get any closure from her. Let us say she tells you whether she remembers or not... .

Would either possibility even matter? I'm sure neither would make you feel better either way. Then of course there's the possibility she's lying, which is more uncertainty.

It hurts bad, because we want to be remembered. But just as we're irrelevant to them now, so are they to us. When you get down to it, this worry *might* be more about you than it is about her. Take it easy, and find yourself something to look forward to instead. It could help. These kinds of thoughts tend to take me to some very dark places in my head. Places I don't wanna be.

... .We're here though. So what the hell, I'll ask... .

With regards to your question, what are you hoping to discover? Why?

[AG]

Yes they do remember that is a fact but they have a warped way of thinking so it might not be how we want it to be. Maybe sometimes it is but that ish shifts so many times that how the hell can you pinpoint when it matches how we are thinking of it? Why do you ask?

[Caramel]

Hi Krisk

They remember. They don't have Alzheimer. But they do their best to forget and they are very good at making it look like they have. We are bad people who deserve to be forgotten. We are mean cruel selfish lair cheats that do not deserve their love. They have to forget us to protect themselves from bad people.

[lm911]

After the break up with my ex we we met by chance and I was able to understand that she was borderline. Until then I had not known. She was very angry but I managed to ask her several questions. One of them was " Why don't you remember the good thing, not the bad?" And her answer was: " I have forgot everything good from the bad things you have done to me" Of course I did not do anything bad to her.

[camuse]

Mine seemed to forget all the good things the moment we split for good. I would try to remind her but she called me manipulative. She just went on about the bad stuff - which was largely her having tantrums. Caused by me of course.

I was quite jealous of her ability to simply erase the good memories from her mind for a time. It's amazing really - just turn it all bad in the mind and move on. Difficult to comprehend. Like the whole disorder really.

[Pieter2]

They do remember - That's why it gets so bad around their late 20's and 30's. The screw ups they make, the good people they lose along the way etc. etc. It all compounds ito a lethal, toxic cocktail. That's also a factor in why they recycle - It is because they remember and regret it. But, the disorder always wins. She might remember and regret, but the moment she admits that - BUDDY YOU'RE SCREWED! The moment she shows an ounce of weakness, you automatically owe her your soul, life and control of your entire life must be handed to her. Oh, and they'll "forget" when they devalue you, but remember so clearly when they want you back... .

[Ihope2]

In the case of my exBPDh, after our break up, his text messages to me were all about some so-called "good times" we had together in our 11 months of marriage.  As far as I am concerned, we did not have any "good times" to remember. From after the first 2 weeks of marriage, things started going downhill fast.  He would isolate himself from me, sleep locked up in the spare bedroom in the house, avoid me when I came home from work, send me disturbing, suicidal, angry and blaming text messages while I was at work, and knock himself out on his prescription tranquilisers.

We had three weekends away from home during the 11 months, meant to be mini-breaks during which we could connect, recharge in nature, go for walks, etc.  They were three weekends from hell.  He slept on tranquilisers during most of them, and when he wasn't asleep, he would complain about the accomodation and say that it wasn't up to his standards, and that we were being ripped off.  And I was paying for it all, as he was unemployed and "too ill to work".  I remember being so sad, so confused and isolated during these weekends.  I would go walking on my own, and cry myself to sleep next to his tranquiliser induced snoring... .

And he just remembers "good times"... .?  

[Popcorn71]

I think they remember but try not to.

My xBPDh used to mention times spent with his ex wife so he did remember.  I think he told me things to make me jealous or keep me on my toes.  He used to say things that had the implied meaning - she used to do this so to be as good as her you should do it too.  This was a bit confusing as he was always telling me how awful she had treated him and how much better I was.

I expect he remembers and says similar things to the replacement now.

[sirius]

I think they remember and boxed it up when they split us black

Before going into NC, we had 7 weeks of post break up war using text, or kung fu texting

On different days, she would say to me in the text :

" Don't have to remind me all these, I remember them all but it is useless now"

" These memories don't mean anything anymore"

" I remember and I know you loved me"

"These will always be in my mind because I loved you too"

" I wish one day i wake up and all these memories are gone"

"Please stop sabotaging me by reminding me all these"

" Its too far away now" (pics on our anniversary)

"We can never be like that anymore"

"its never the same anymore"

[enlighten me]

They definitely remember. My exgf would constantly talk about her exs. All the fun they had ect ect. I thought that it was her trying to make me jealous and some of it probably was but I think as she was in a happy place she let all her happy memories flow.

I think the reason they wont admit to us about any good times is purely down to guilt/ shame. They know what they did wrong and having to remember us as good people makes their shame worse. Its justifiable to lie/ cheat on an A hole but not so if he was a nice guy.

If you do horrible things to a nice person then you are horrible but if you do it to someone that's horrible then your just paying them back. Yet another BPD coping method.

[lm911]

They definitely remember. My exgf would constantly talk about her exs. All the fun they had ect ect. I thought that it was her trying to make me jealous and some of it probably was but I think as she was in a happy place she let all her happy memories flow.

I think the reason they wont admit to us about any good times is purely down to guilt/ shame. They know what they did wrong and having to remember us as good people makes their shame worse. Its justifiable to lie/ cheat on an A hole but not so if he was a nice guy.

If you do horrible things to a nice person then you are horrible but if you do it to someone that's horrible then your just paying them back. Yet another BPD coping method.

If they know they did sth wrong, there will be no painting black. For me the feeliing of remorse is unknown to them. So I am thinkig that the second part is more accurate If you do horrible things to a nice person then you are horrible but if you do it to someone that's horrible then your just paying them back.

[enlighten me]

This is exactly where painting black comes from. Its the coping mechanism that they use so they don't have to look inside as they are scared that what they will see is what they really think they are. BPDs don't seem to think they are good people. Quite the opposite in fact.

They feel they are horrible people who do terrible things. By painting us black they do not have to face this. They can justify their actions. This is also why a BPD very rarely apologises. If they admitted they were wrong then with black and white thinking they must be wrong about everything. On apology would bring their whole house of cards crashing down around them.

[camuse]

Fascinating stuff.

After I split with mine, I saw tiny glimpses that deep down she knew something was deeply broken. She spent 99.99% of the time blaming me, but sometimes she'd suddenly say things like "The thing is, my parents did this," or "Your family affects you forever," or "I'm always so anxious." The way she said these things was different, a distant look, a quiet voice - she was talking to herself. She knew, but she couldn't face it.

And while she did admit she'd 'overreacted' or needed medical help (pills) or had behaved badly, she never ever ever ever said sorry.

But she remembers. She remembered everything, every word of every conversation she ever had, everything she did, everything she saw. She remembers every detail, with a memory like no one else I ever met. She was proud of her incredible memory. She remembers, and it hurts so much she has to try to deny it.

I know I'm painted black now, just like the others. But occasionally she'd say something positive about an ex, even while they were black. "He's actually a good person" was one, "He did really care about me," another. Even once, "I ruined his life." Always in the same sad, hopeless voice and the empty eyes. She knew what she was, but accepting it was too massive. It's so sad. I can't help wondering what will become of her, as her life slips away day by day. Such a tragedy.

I'm painted black. But I know she remembers, and I know deep down she knows what she did.

[blissful_camper]

I think that they remember.  But it's safely stored away in memory-land with a wall around those events, so that it's easier to avoid the emotions (shame, regret, sadness) that may surface with those memories.  

It's avoidance behavior, because those feelings are a source of discomfort.  Without the ability to cope and lean into the feelings, they are sealed away.  

My ex demonstrated that he could recall positive events with partners from the past. When I observed him during those moments, he experienced sadness and loss.  He didn't allow himself to 'sit' with those good memories, choosing instead to end those moments and quickly moving on to something else.

In contrast, he could comfortably share happy memories about important people in his life who he wasn't romantically involved with such as deceased family members.  

[HappyChappy]

Their black and white thinking distorts their memories. So if you’ve just split, you will have gone from being all good to all bad. Hence they won’t be recalling any good memories of you. Don’t forget that it’s one of a BPD primary objectives to keep the fantasy thinking going, hence they will distort memories.

The big difference here is we norms search for the truth, a BPD searches for confirmation of their fantasy. I have often read, sometime the BPD believes their lies (distortions) and sometimes not.

But at the end of the day, does it really matter what they think ? A Narcassist NPD places little value on anyone who isn’t performing for them, and has contempt for those that do perform. They may mask this expertly, but that’s the considered theory. As for a BPD, not sure it’s any different. I guess their fantasy thinking is not as absolute as a NPD. But knowing both a BPD and NPD well, the theory holds with both.

Some mentioned earlier that BPD know they are bad people, well only for fleeting moments. A Pathological BPD will be driven more by their ideal persona, don’t ever be lured into thinking they may see the error of their ways unless they are deep into Therapy. But I guess us norms also have a bit of fantasy thinking.

[Hope0807]

So many wonderful comments here.  This is a topic I struggle with daily, amongst many others.  Someone here also mentioned taking on BPD traits ourselves and not even realizing it.  I remember raging at times to meet his level.  I remember slowly but surely carrying a toxifying level of negativity around with me.  I didn't view the world as he did, react to it as he did, but definitely started to absorb his ways of going about life. 

Also ironic what so many of you have mentioned about memories.  Mine had an insane memory - could remember who he was sitting next to in 2nd grade, what the teacher was teaching, and just tons of crazy stuff just like that BUT stayed away from any and all details about his ex relationships like the PLAGUE.  Part of me realizes I didn't push the issue of learning about his past relationships because I wanted to thrive in feeling like the "only" and "best" thing that had ever happened to him.  I now feel foolish for not being more curious about his memories of past relationships.

[camuse]

So many wonderful comments here.  This is a topic I struggle with daily, amongst many others.  Someone here also mentioned taking on BPD traits ourselves and not even realizing it.  I remember raging at times to meet his level.  I remember slowly but surely carrying a toxifying level of negativity around with me.  I didn't view the world as he did, react to it as he did, but definitely started to absorb his ways of going about life. 

Also ironic what so many of you have mentioned about memories.  Mine had an insane memory - could remember who he was sitting next to in 2nd grade, what the teacher was teaching, and just tons of crazy stuff just like that BUT stayed away from any and all details about his ex relationships like the PLAGUE.  Part of me realizes I didn't push the issue of learning about his past relationships because I wanted to thrive in feeling like the "only" and "best" thing that had ever happened to him.  I now feel foolish for not being more curious about his memories of past relationships.

My T asked me if she had a great memory before I mentioned it - apparently it is a common theme for these people. - there are lots of posts on here where people have experienced insanely good memories in their PD partners.

At first I found it impressive, but it soon became a problem - she could remember every detail, every word everything forever, perfectly, and also recall them like a computer when necessary. I have never witnessed anything like it. But then she would twist the memory to suit whatever point she was trying to make. It made discussion even more difficult, since the incidents or conversations were often minor and months ago so I couldn't remember them at all. It also meant she never forgot or forgave anything, every perceived slight was recalled constantly forever. Anything I said that differed at all to something I said 18 months ago, proved I was a liar. It was not fun.

For example apparently I said I wasn't sure if I wanted children when we first met. Fast forward 2 years, and I see a nice looking baby in the street. Cue days of crying and rage, because this baby must be mine and I must be cheating with the mother, because "you hate babies", because of something throwaway I said years ago (this really happened).

So while she can remember and recall everything perfectly, she can also file memories away when they are painful. Like a human filing cabinet. I think she probably remembers whatever the childhood trauma was that made her this way, but has filed it away in a folder that is never opened. But she knows it is there. It's just too horrible to bring out. That's my best analysis of the various little things she said under her breath, in sadness, that occasionally gave a glimpse into her disordered thinking.

[Take2]

Camuse. ... .your last post there sounds like my ex exactly (except of course he's a guy).

Yes.  He definitely remembers.  And sometimes. ... He twists the facts to suit his needs.

Because like you I don't remember every detail of events that seemed minor to me from 6 months ago he would take the opportunity to twist those details knowing full well I'd never know for certain.   Coping mechanism for sure on his part... .but done in ways that led me to believe he did often know he was doing it.  Because if I did actually remember and challenge him on it He'd usually drop that detail.  But still call me a liar first of course.

Geeze.  It makes me so tired.

[Take2]

Oops I got sidetracked on my last post.  I also meant to say yes my ex rremember good times.

I don't know how conscious it is but it seems like it at this point.

He "forgets" during the times he splits me black and accuses me of lying and cheating all while HE is actually doing exactly that to me.  Therefore he justifies his actions in his head.

He "remembers" when needed... .ie when whatever his latest conquest doesn't go as anticipated.   I don't know if I'd ever know this for sure if a coworker didn't tell me about one of his girlfriends... .

Anyway... .I get painted white and he remembers good memories so he can be withe again and not be alone.

[drummerboy]

Camuse, I had tears in my eyes as I read your post. So similar to what I experienced. The eyes that were so incredibly full of hope and promise at the start were so distant and empty at the end and on the rare occasions she would talk about what ailed her. The strange thing about my ex is that she majored in psychology and had been in therapy for 10 years. She was intelligent enough to know everything about her condition and yet she dropped everything and started going to a homeopath for her anxiety! I cannot believe that they could just forget about the great times and the great times were awesome, in our first few months together she was the happiest person in the world, as was I. But once they split you black I think they just dwell on negatives and as someone else said, put a wall around the good stuff.

What makes being with a BPD so heart breaking IMO, is that you know deep down there is a beautiful person, one that is capable of so much love like they gave at the start but the BPD controls them and they are powerless to stop that controlling them.

Fascinating stuff.

After I split with mine, I saw tiny glimpses that deep down she knew something was deeply broken. She spent 99.99% of the time blaming me, but sometimes she'd suddenly say things like "The thing is, my parents did this," or "Your family affects you forever," or "I'm always so anxious." The way she said these things was different, a distant look, a quiet voice - she was talking to herself. She knew, but she couldn't face it.

And while she did admit she'd 'overreacted' or needed medical help (pills) or had behaved badly, she never ever ever ever said sorry.

But she remembers. She remembered everything, every word of every conversation she ever had, everything she did, everything she saw. She remembers every detail, with a memory like no one else I ever met. She was proud of her incredible memory. She remembers, and it hurts so much she has to try to deny it.

I know I'm painted black now, just like the others. But occasionally she'd say something positive about an ex, even while they were black. "He's actually a good person" was one, "He did really care about me," another. Even once, "I ruined his life." Always in the same sad, hopeless voice and the empty eyes. She knew what she was, but accepting it was too massive. It's so sad. I can't help wondering what will become of her, as her life slips away day by day. Such a tragedy.

I'm painted black. But I know she remembers, and I know deep down she knows what she did.

[Hope0807]

Camuse,

I experienced so much of the same.  We both spoke about a family and children in depth when we met.  Although neither of us were in a hurry, we both readily complemented the other and said we would make great parents.  As he was splitting he totally twisted our previous conversations and said that I initially told him I never wanted children and now was changing my mind, putting him in a place in life he doesn't want to be.  Creeped me out!  That wasn't the only thing he twisted and combined with his impeccable "computer-like / file cabinet" memory, the twisting of previous conversations made me feel like I was totally losing it.  Thanks so much for what you shared here.  Very helpful!

So many wonderful comments here.  This is a topic I struggle with daily, amongst many others.  Someone here also mentioned taking on BPD traits ourselves and not even realizing it.  I remember raging at times to meet his level.  I remember slowly but surely carrying a toxifying level of negativity around with me.  I didn't view the world as he did, react to it as he did, but definitely started to absorb his ways of going about life. 

Also ironic what so many of you have mentioned about memories.  Mine had an insane memory - could remember who he was sitting next to in 2nd grade, what the teacher was teaching, and just tons of crazy stuff just like that BUT stayed away from any and all details about his ex relationships like the PLAGUE.  Part of me realizes I didn't push the issue of learning about his past relationships because I wanted to thrive in feeling like the "only" and "best" thing that had ever happened to him.  I now feel foolish for not being more curious about his memories of past relationships.

My T asked me if she had a great memory before I mentioned it - apparently it is a common theme for these people. - there are lots of posts on here where people have experienced insanely good memories in their PD partners.

At first I found it impressive, but it soon became a problem - she could remember every detail, every word everything forever, perfectly, and also recall them like a computer when necessary. I have never witnessed anything like it. But then she would twist the memory to suit whatever point she was trying to make. It made discussion even more difficult, since the incidents or conversations were often minor and months ago so I couldn't remember them at all. It also meant she never forgot or forgave anything, every perceived slight was recalled constantly forever. Anything I said that differed at all to something I said 18 months ago, proved I was a liar. It was not fun.

For example apparently I said I wasn't sure if I wanted children when we first met. Fast forward 2 years, and I see a nice looking baby in the street. Cue days of crying and rage, because this baby must be mine and I must be cheating with the mother, because "you hate babies", because of something throwaway I said years ago (this really happened).

So while she can remember and recall everything perfectly, she can also file memories away when they are painful. Like a human filing cabinet. I think she probably remembers whatever the childhood trauma was that made her this way, but has filed it away in a folder that is never opened. But she knows it is there. It's just too horrible to bring out. That's my best analysis of the various little things she said under her breath, in sadness, that occasionally gave a glimpse into her disordered thinking.

[Hope0807]

"What makes being with a BPD so heart breaking IMO, is that you know deep down there is a beautiful person, one that is capable of so much love like they gave at the start but the BPD controls them and they are powerless to stop that controlling them."

THIS WAS BIG BIG BIG!  As the non, months after I'm out of my home, I continue to spend large chunks of my day in dark sadness and blinding tears over the sadness, the grief for who "they gave at the start".  So many smiles and warmth in the beginning.  Mine couldn't handle being questioned or challenged.  He loved my independence and strength, but grew to resent it equally once that same strength and independence would not rest in holding him accountable for his actions.  Mine too made comments over the years that gave glimpses into his sadness (far deeper than I could have ever understood at the time)…"this is my f$#&^%g mother's fault…she did nothing but scream and yell for years and totally forgot about me…"  "I'm f#%$ed up and I always have been."

I hurt every day wanting to be able to help or heal the person that I know is buried inside.  My reality is that his BPD drives his drug addiction and all other behaviors that nearly stole my soul and cost me my own life.  This "fantasy" gone "fright show" is sometimes too much to bear.

[drummerboy]

It IS the most heartbreaking part, knowing the beautiful soul that is buried inside but that is suffocated by the BPD. Even though my relationship was short, 5 months, it was without a doubt the most deeply connected I've ever felt to someone. It was like "Oh, so this is what love is really like" And its not like I've never been in relationships before, I've had 3 long term relationships. I certainly don't hate her, I still love her, but I hate BPD with a passion.

I hurt every day wanting to be able to help or heal the person that I know is buried inside.  My reality is that his BPD drives his drug addiction and all other behaviors that nearly stole my soul and cost me my own life.  This "fantasy" gone "fright show" is sometimes too much to bear.

[Ihope2]

I hurt every day wanting to be able to help or heal the person that I know is buried inside. 

I feel your pain, Hope0807.  It is an almost unbearable pain to have to walk away from such a relationship.  You feel that you have invested all of yourself in it, but it seems to have been for nothing else but pain and confusion, despite all your noble and good intentions!

It is at this point that we should admit our own powerlessness (in the tradition of the 12 Steps).  We were and are powerless to help or heal this person, it is not up to you to do so.  Completely let go of the notion! Give it up to your Higher Power. 

This realisation has helped me immensely.  I continue to walk away from my exBPDh every day, and I continue to pray for him (and myself too).  He never was mine to fix.

[GuiltHaunted]

What makes being with a BPD so heart breaking IMO, is that you know deep down there is a beautiful person, one that is capable of so much love like they gave at the start but the BPD controls them and they are powerless to stop that controlling them.

I have a slightly less optimistic and romantic view on this: What you saw as a beautiful person, was a well executed act. Deep down they are not more or less beautiful people, than anyone else. They are ordinary people screwed up by a mental disorder. This is what makes the breakup so difficult - that we remember their beautiful side, which was just an act.

If they didn't have BPD, they would have behaved like ordinary people. E.g. not saying that they want to marry you after 2 weeks, and basically not knowing you. But rather they would have taken the time to get to know you before making such ridiculous suggestions. That is the overwhelming love, that we see as "beautiful" and it is indeed extraordinary. But keep in mind it was not based on anything that was real.

Even though my relationship was short, 5 months, it was without a doubt the most deeply connected I've ever felt to someone.

Again, slightly less optimistic: You felt connected to someone saying you were the most fantastic person they ever met (but in reality you were not, or you wouldn't be posting on this board). They liked everything you did and the way you did it. And you felt a deep connection to this person adoring you. In reality you felt connected to yourself through this person.

[Blimblam]

In the idealization phase we connected to how we would like to feel about our selves.

I think the critical step in all of this is when we bonded to that lost abandoned child deep within them.

In my experience it was once I bonded I the abandoned child that we went trough a short clingy stage and then then into devaluation. 

That's when I learned how deep the rabbit hole goes.  As I fell in also being bonded to the ideal love and the abandoned child. 

Then i knew the pain if the abandoned child.

[BuildingFromScratch]

Even though the love they feel at the beginning is not real, I think they believe it is. I think it's like this, the borderline is delusional and we walk in their delusions at the beginning. We walk in their narcissistic delusions of grandeur, their delusions of hope, their delusions of a savior, and we are both fooled. The phony mirroring aspect is something every single person does, placating and such, it's just much more extreme with the borderline, because they are so ashamed and desperate, that they feel the need to completely placate. I would say the borderline is deceptive, but only impulsively.

[drummerboy]

GuiltHaunted, thank you so much for your post. I need to hear this sort of reality check. I think I might have still been in my own idealisation phase until I read your post. I have printed it out and put it on my fridge, they are truly words of wisdom. Thanks again

What makes being with a BPD so heart breaking IMO, is that you know deep down there is a beautiful person, one that is capable of so much love like they gave at the start but the BPD controls them and they are powerless to stop that controlling them.

I have a slightly less optimistic and romantic view on this: What you saw as a beautiful person, was a well executed act. Deep down they are not more or less beautiful people, than anyone else. They are ordinary people screwed up by a mental disorder. This is what makes the breakup so difficult - that we remember their beautiful side, which was just an act.

If they didn't have BPD, they would have behaved like ordinary people. E.g. not saying that they want to marry you after 2 weeks, and basically not knowing you. But rather they would have taken the time to get to know you before making such ridiculous suggestions. That is the overwhelming love, that we see as "beautiful" and it is indeed extraordinary. But keep in mind it was not based on anything that was real.

Even though my relationship was short, 5 months, it was without a doubt the most deeply connected I've ever felt to someone.

Again, slightly less optimistic: You felt connected to someone saying you were the most fantastic person they ever met (but in reality you were not, or you wouldn't be posting on this board). They liked everything you did and the way you did it. And you felt a deep connection to this person adoring you. In reality you felt connected to yourself through this person.

[freedom33]

I was quite jealous of her ability to simply erase the good memories from her mind for a time. It's amazing really - just turn it all bad in the mind and move on. Difficult to comprehend. Like the whole disorder really.

I know what you mean about being jealous of their super ability. In the worse periods between us, I was unable to properly work due to the fights and the all the drama and chaos but she was actually absolutely fine with it. Somehow she managed to completely black out and operate as if nothing happened. Come to think of it I think she was just used to living a constant hell and that's her coping mechanism.