Is it denial, amnesia, or what

[workinprogress]

My exgf would always go on about different celebs and how gorgeous they where. When the Chris rea video wicked games came on I said that Helena Christianson had the most amazing blue eyes. She took immediate umbrage to this and started having a go about how she had amazing blue eyes. One comment compared to her hundreds and guess what I never lived it down.

Same here. Said to me "I don't mind you finding other women attractive." Trap! Early on I said some celebrity was attractive, big mistake. She on the other hand made such comments all time time. When I pulled her up on the double standard, she was "just joking." Even this is abuse really, part of a power struggle to undermine you.

All of this was X100 for me.

[Mutt]

We kindly ask to redirect the comments to the original posters discussion of denial, emotional amnesia and dissociations as the thread is going "off topic" Thank you all.

[patientandclear]

Wondered this all the time.  I told him that I was being serious that I thought something was wrong with his brain.  He'd forget long, important conversations.  He told me I must have had a bad dream.  I really thought I was crazy or he had brain damage for real.  Now I don't think so.  I think it was just gaslighting by a pro.

The effect on you/us may be the same as gas lighting but there's good reason to believe this is not intentional manipulation -- he IS mentally ill, his brain does distort what he knows and remembers. Read Jeffrey Young's articles on BPD "modes" and schema therapy. That work makes clear that pwBPD are dealing with practically different personalities and from day to day and hour to hour actually may NOT know or remember conversations and events. And if they do recall it may be from a radically different perspective.

Like everyone else I has those incidents where my ex could not recall whole important conversations and looked at me as though I were nuts when I referred to them.

I really think we do ourselves a disservice by understating how distorted their thinking is by this very real disorder. Thoughts and memories are altered and behavior is compulsive. Yet we tend to wonder why they "choose" to act in a hurtful way ... .

[jchart]

He remembers every detail about our friendship for the last 22 years and all of the good things that I don't even remember. He claims not to remember what he says in the rages and at times like some of you says I must have made them up. Part of me thinks it's selective memory, other parts believe the disorder truly does cause memory loss as to what was exactly said but not take away the whole incident. They know when they are mean. He's cried pondering why everyone is mean to him (they aren't) and asks if it's something he's done (it usually is)

[freedom33]

pwBPD are dealing with practically different personalities and from day to day and hour to hour actually may NOT know or remember conversations and events.

I think there are occasions when pwBPD are so stressed and anxious, dissociating etc. (basically bordering on psychosis) and in such cases they may not remember what they do or say. I accept that and I have witnessed this myself too e.g. forgotten things or didnt remember exactly what I said when I have been under a lot stress.

However there are also occassions when they are lying off their teeth, gaslighting, denying and being competely conscious of what they are doing. That I believe has to do with core shame. They basically can never be wrong. You can confront them. Show them that this is the text they send when they said x, y and z and they would still deny it, leave the room, won't respond. Drives a person crazy

[camuse]

pwBPD are dealing with practically different personalities and from day to day and hour to hour actually may NOT know or remember conversations and events.

I think there are occasions when pwBPD are so stressed and anxious, dissociating etc. (basically bordering on psychosis) and in such cases they may not remember what they do or say. I accept that and I have witnessed this myself too e.g. forgotten things or didnt remember exactly what I said when I have been under a lot stress.

However there are also occassions when they are lying off their teeth, gaslighting, denying and being competely conscious of what they are doing. That I believe has to do with core shame. They basically can never be wrong. You can confront them. Show them that this is the text they send when they said x, y and z and they would still deny it, leave the room, won't respond. Drives a person crazy

Mine usually just didn't respond. Or changed the subject. Very very frustrating.

Sometimes she would just reinterpret it as something totally different. Like when she said she didnt like her partners to have problems of their own. I reminded her of that years later, and she remembered it - most people wouldn't, since it wasnt an important conversation at the time (although it was a big red flag) and said "I meant, I dont like it when they beat their partners and act all macho." what the heck! thats not even remotely what you said!

[hergestridge]

Jeffrey Young may have found that his patients suffer from selective memory, but selective amnesia is not one of the criteria for BPD. I have only seen it on one or two occasions as part of the illness, and that has been from a "therapists" point of view, which must be taken with a grain of salt.

However, there are at least a couple of critera for BPD such as "going to great lengths to avoid separation" (I lie to make you stay!) and devaluation (why should I tell you the truth?) that could explaing intentional use of "selective memory". Let's face up to, they do nasty things.

I know it sounds cynical to describe pwBPD as "pro manipulators", but it's not far from the truth at times. And it's got nothing to do with being an evil genius.

But when I was trying concentrating on establishing on getting some kind of communication with with my xwife, she was busy thinking about how she was going to have things her way. As if her life depended on it.  She could not think of anyting else.

[myself]

The original impulse may be caused by a disorder (most here are undiagnosed though), but very often the follow through is intentional. There is choice involved, with a multitude of ways they could reach out for real help to overcome their difficulties and not hurt others as much as they do. They're aware that they are wearing masks. Admit they run instead of deal with. They've seen the negative outcome of their actions time and time again, yet continue. So are they choosing to remain mentally ill? They are adults, with better options, and have been offered love, kindness, compassion... . But they refuse and fight against/destroy the very things they could benefit from the most. Selective memory such as we've seen equals less accountability and equals a less honest life. These are choices that are being made so their houses of cards don't collapse. Perhaps they're not as fearful of abandonment, confusion, and pain as much as thriving off of them?  

[ConverseHome]

I'm so grateful to all of these thoughts to my initial question about denial and amnesia. I've re-read the thread a few times, as so many points often resonated precisely to my own experiences or offered insights I had not yet pondered.

My take, at least on my situation with my exBPDgf, is that it was an "and, both" kind of cognitive cocktail. That is, she was willfully lying, quite skillful at deception on certain things, and pretty much was going to do what she wanted, regardless of the emotional consequences with me. Indeed, just like the three-year old analogy several folks raise here. And, you have all reminded me that, in this case, my Peter pan is never going to grow up, as she's incapable of emotional honesty with herself.

But, as I said, there was something much more than this, and that brings me to my other conclusion. Which is the point about mental illness. She genuinely did not remember certain things - big things - like throwing kitchen items, driving a car over a retaining wall, devaluing me with her family within earshot. Sure, she may have acknowledged certain things at the time, a half-hearted apology, maybe, but a week, a few months, a year later: no recall, zero memory. Sure, some may say she's just a skilled manipulator. And maybe she was, but I genuinely think there was complete amnesia here, and something far deeper cognitively than lying/deception.

I must confess it makes me more compassionate with her when I see at least some of her behavior through this lens. Doesn't mean I'd ever go back to the black hole of fog and distortion that was my life for five year. In fact it makes me realize change is impossible without a major intervention, and that would have to come from her. Still, she's miserable and does not have the emotional skills to navigate life, nor the ability to reach out for the skilled psychological help needed for her mental illness. What an awful way to live.

[hergestridge]

It's said that a fairly high percent of pwBPD get better with treatment, but from the stories I read here it seems many people (in so much that they actually are BPD, many are undiagnosed, remember) seem to have low compliance when it comes to treatment or has no treatment at all. Chances are that the pwBPD who chose to "remain ill" are the pwBPD whose partners end up writing on this board. If a person has untreated BPD and has a partner, that partner will propably need help.

[enlighten me]

I too believe that when they are in full blown rage then they don't remember it. The look I got when I mentioned things she had said was one of utter disbelief. At first I thought that this was guilt/ shame not allowing her to admit it but now the more I think about it the more I truly believe they don't remember.

As Ive raised before on other posts I believe hormones have a lot to do with BPD. Certain hormones block or impair memory.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_stress_on_memory

When a BPD is in full blown rage then their stress levels go through the roof. This would explain why they think were the crazy ones as we seem to be making these things up that they cant recall.