BPD Negative Interpretation of Your Actions & Validation/Invalidation

[Inquisitive1]

My wife recently got really angry about a piece of advice I gave her. She said I was being too controlling. When I looked back on the email, the language seemed very neutral. The email started with "You might consider... .". I think her negative reaction came from the strong negative feelings she is having about the situation on which I was advising her.

So, I don't feel I can validate her, b/c her feelings are based on an incorrect interpretation. OTOH, I know being invalidating is not good. Maybe use SET, but is there another approach for this sort of situation.

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[DreamFlyer99]

hi Inquisitive1,

I had a lot of trouble understanding what validation was really about, and it sounds like perhaps you're in the same boat as me. What we validate is that they feel or think the way they do, we aren't validating their particular "truth" of what they're saying. My uBPDh is so fond of telling me what my thoughts are--not his thoughts but mine. Immediately I would feel invalidated! I used to get so frustrated with that--"YOU CAN'T SEE INSIDE MY HEAD!" Not my best response... .we have to tune in to what their emotion and feeling is about whatever they're saying, that's what's so hard for a pwBPD to do, express their feelings in a healthy way. (it's a disorder of dysregulated emotions, right?)

So-- Instead I need to search for the emotion driving whatever my husband thinks i am thinking, and say something less, er, inflammatory, and more like "It sounds like you're feeling I'm not listening... ." etc. (something not expressed in all caps.  )

Here's a good link to go over the validation stuff again, i have to refresh my brain on it once in a while:

Validation and BPD

These are a few of the reasons mentioned in this presentation on why validation is so helpful:

Facilitates regulation of emotions

Enhances relationships and can decrease feelings of abandonment

Enhances identity

And that's what we want, right? You'll hit a page (slide 9) that talks about reasons we invalidate, and you'll see the sentence "because we don't want our loved one to go through what we went through." That's where my hand goes up every time! *sigh* I would think i was soo helpful having been in therapy for some years already to deal with depression, and i'd say things like "This really helped me! if you would just try it yourself--" and he'd say "I'M NOT YOU!" Oh. True. And just like that I had invalidated his very being by saying it was the same as mine. I didn't intend to, i really thought i was being helpful.

That speaks to giving our loved ones with BPD advice too--unless they ask "what would you do?" that very shaky sense of self a pwBPD has? well, again, our saying "you should" "you might" --pretty much "you" anything feels invalidating, and like we aren't really listening to their specific thoughts/feelings.

These things take practice practice practice so we can get out of our old and less functional ways of communicating. My clue should have been "hmm--he reacts badly to this. Maybe i'm doing it wrong." But no, bull-headed and sure of my knowledge of What Would Help, i rolled right on over him. (Ouch!)

And that's what's so wonderful about this community, we can share our struggles, learn some new skills, and make a difference in our life and the life of our loved one. 

[startrekuser]

My wife recently got really angry about a piece of advice I gave her. She said I was being too controlling. When I looked back on the email, the language seemed very neutral. The email started with "You might consider... .". I think her negative reaction came from the strong negative feelings she is having about the situation on which I was advising her.

So, I don't feel I can validate her, b/c her feelings are based on an incorrect interpretation. OTOH, I know being invalidating is not good. Maybe use SET, but is there another approach for this sort of situation.

My wife does this ALL THE TIME when we are discussing a topic in which she already has strong negative feelings about me.   I'm not sure how to handle this.

[vortex of confusion]

So, I don't feel I can validate her, b/c her feelings are based on an incorrect interpretation. OTOH, I know being invalidating is not good. Maybe use SET, but is there another approach for this sort of situation.

I have tried to validate the feelings based on the interpretation rather than the interpretation itself. This is an area where I sometimes struggle because it goes both ways. I will misinterpret him because his body language and attitude do not align with what he is saying. I have used that as a spring board to check myself, especially when it comes to body language. And, I have also discovered that my husband tends to misinterpret emails more than in person communication. There have been times when I have tried to be playful in email but he took it as something totally different. I try to say things like, "I didn't realize that it came across that way. If you thought that is what I was saying or doing, then I can see why you are upset."

Trying to explain myself does not work and only escalates things.

[formflier]

And, I have also discovered that my husband tends to misinterpret emails more than in person communication. There have been times when I have tried to be playful in email but he took it as something totally different.

In my r/s... .I have erected a boundary to texts and emails for r/s issues.  We still do the "b thr in 10 min" text or other list things.

There was so much mis-interpretation.

Trying to explain myself does not work and only escalates things.

Anyone want to rename "trying to explain myself"... .from the lessons and tools... .

[vortex of confusion]

Anyone want to rename "trying to explain myself"... .from the lessons and tools... .

LOL. JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain)!

[Inquisitive1]

Yeah, JADE so important I'll write it again--justify, argue, defend, explain. My ongoing effort to avoid that has really helped my relationship.

I have definitely had those "YOU CAN'T SEE INSIDE MY HEAD" moments. The bit about not giving advice... .I'm working on that.

The slides on validation were a good read. The first entry under "Reasons We Invalidate" is "We have a different world view." This comes closest to what I'm talking about in my original post. I can't genuinely validate what she is saying/feeling when I think she is completely wrong. She says I'm trying to control, but i'm not, I'm just giving advice to be followed or ignored. What I did well here was I avoided JADE'ing. Since I couldn't validate from a genuine place. I simple stated my truth--that I didn't mean to be controlling. I didn't say much more. This actually worked pretty well.

I feel like her negative interpretation of my neutral email is at the heart of a lot of the problems she has. I'd like to see her do better at this... .but that's outside my control.

[DreamFlyer99]

Of course we have different world views--our partner with BPD comes from a very different place!

That's why the validation is not about what they're saying but what they're feeling--or to use Vortex's example: "If you thought I was being controlling then I can see why you are upset." THAT's the feeling to be validated.

[formflier]

Anyone want to rename "trying to explain myself"... .from the lessons and tools... .

LOL. JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain)!

Vortex,

You are starting to get all the "boardspeak" down! 

[formflier]

Yeah, JADE so important I'll write it again--justify, argue, defend, explain. My ongoing effort to avoid that has really helped my relationship.

I have definitely had those "YOU CAN'T SEE INSIDE MY HEAD" moments. The bit about not giving advice... .I'm working on that.

The slides on validation were a good read. The first entry under "Reasons We Invalidate" is "We have a different world view." This comes closest to what I'm talking about in my original post. I can't genuinely validate what she is saying/feeling when I think she is completely wrong. She says I'm trying to control, but i'm not, I'm just giving advice to be followed or ignored. What I did well here was I avoided JADE'ing. Since I couldn't validate from a genuine place. I simple stated my truth--that I didn't mean to be controlling. I didn't say much more. This actually worked pretty well.

I feel like her negative interpretation of my neutral email is at the heart of a lot of the problems she has. I'd like to see her do better at this... .but that's outside my control.

Anyone want to talk about the differences in validating and agreeing with a feeling?

[vortex of confusion]

Anyone want to talk about the differences in validating and agreeing with a feeling?

 Ooo, me, me, me!

I think validating is simply the act of letting the other person know that you heard them and understand them without necessarily agreeing. I may not believe it but I acknowledge that you think or believe whatever it is. Agreeing means that you believe it and think it.

I think this has been a source of contention for me because I sometimes feel like my spouse wants me to be in agreement. Validating without agreeing is something that is tricky for me because he will talk in circles until I agree with him.

[formflier]

Anyone want to talk about the differences in validating and agreeing with a feeling?

 Ooo, me, me, me!

I think validating is simply the act of letting the other person know that you heard them and understand them without necessarily agreeing. I may not believe it but I acknowledge that you think or believe whatever it is. Agreeing means that you believe it and think it.

I think this has been a source of contention for me because I sometimes feel like my spouse wants me to be in agreement. Validating without agreeing is something that is tricky for me because he will talk in circles until I agree with him.

I figured vortex would jump in on this!  I like the answer too.

And... .vortex has brought up a tricky situation that I hope several around here can help with... .

How can you validate... .and then when the "circle talking" starts... .how can you not invalidate... .and exit the circle after a round or two?

How long should circle talking go on before being declared unproductive and ended?

How do you end circle talking... .softly... .so as to not inflame... .?

[startrekuser]

[/

Anyone want to talk about the differences in validating and agreeing with a feeling?

 Ooo, me, me, me!

I think validating is simply the act of letting the other person know that you heard them and understand them without necessarily agreeing. I may not believe it but I acknowledge that you think or believe whatever it is. Agreeing means that you believe it and think it.

I think this has been a source of contention for me because I sometimes feel like my spouse wants me to be in agreement. Validating without agreeing is something that is tricky for me because he will talk in circles until I agree with him.

My BPDw does the same thing.  I can validate her feelings, and she'll say, "but you don't agree!" and the conversation goes on and on and on... .

[startrekuser]

Anyone want to talk about the differences in validating and agreeing with a feeling?

 Ooo, me, me, me!

I think validating is simply the act of letting the other person know that you heard them and understand them without necessarily agreeing. I may not believe it but I acknowledge that you think or believe whatever it is. Agreeing means that you believe it and think it.

I think this has been a source of contention for me because I sometimes feel like my spouse wants me to be in agreement. Validating without agreeing is something that is tricky for me because he will talk in circles until I agree with him.

I figured vortex would jump in on this!  I like the answer too.

And... .vortex has brought up a tricky situation that I hope several around here can help with... .

How can you validate... .and then when the "circle talking" starts... .how can you not invalidate... .and exit the circle after a round or two?

How long should circle talking go on before being declared unproductive and ended?

How do you end circle talking... .softly... .so as to not inflame... .?

GREAT questions and I would LOVE to know the answers because I know this problem all too well.  I have to say that it makes me feel so good that there are others that are familiar with this situation.  It's like a recurring nightmare for me in my conversations with my BPDw (for 15 years).  I've always felt so alone in dealing with my BPDw and our nightmare communications.  When I ask helpful friends and relationship experts for advice, their advice never resonated with me b/c I knew it wouldn't work.  I was always so frustrated b/c I could never really describe to them what's going on in our relationship.  People here explain it to me PERFECTLY and it literally brings tears to my eyes to hear someone else describe my problems.  THANK YOU SO MUCH!

[Inquisitive1]

In this case I think I did let my wife know I understood how she felt without agreeing with her. And maybe that is why it worked out. Anyhow, I stumbled into that, good to see it written down. Now I can use it as an intentional strategy.

Talking can't be circular until you start covering the same thing repeatedly. So, it may take a couple of go rounds to realize you are in a circular argument, and at that point it is time to stop. The key is keeping it toghether and not get angry/frustrated, I've found if I can do that, I can usually separate without too much drama. gotta stay calm.

I agree with captain kirk, hearing of other people dealing with the same thing really helps. Makes me feel less isolated. And sometimes i feel really isolated.

[123Phoebe]

It's difficult sharing a story without getting into all the details (trying to keep it anonymous)

Something occurred that left me feeling like my voice was stifled and I was an afterthought.  I told SO this, that I would rather not be involved in event because I hate feeling this way.

He took it to mean that I was accusing him of making me feel this way.  That those 2 things he intentionally set out to do to me and blah blah blah.  He said that while he doesn't think I intentionally meant to make him feel like crap, it didn't change the result (him feeling like crap).

I used this as an opportunity to try and meet somewhere in the middle.

I thanked him for sharing his side, his perspective.  I said that "feelings are funny and I believe we're on the same page with this.  I didn't mean for you to feel accused of setting out to stifle my voice.  I'm sorry that's the vibe I gave off, that what I said was received this way; I can see how it could be.  It's just how I feel, "my" feelings."

Then I went on to describe that "when such and such happens, I feel stifled.  When such and such happens, I feel like an afterthought.  I would like to continue with event, I would also like not to have the things happen that bring up these feelings in me.  Can we agree on this?"

He thanked me for telling him my side and that sure, he agrees.  While he JADEd a bit, he also said that he could understand where I was coming from and he wants me to feel like a full participant.

We hugged and kissed and put it in the past... . Had a wonderful weekend!

[formflier]

 Now I can use it as an intentional strategy.

YES!

Talking can't be circular until you start covering the same thing repeatedly. So, it may take a couple of go rounds to realize you are in a circular argument,

How can you change your thinking to being "intentional" in looking for the possibility of a circular argument?  Note:  Two different lines of thinking... .step 1... .realize earlier that you are entering a circle... .step 2... .what to do (other than deer in headlights look... .)

and at that point it is time to stop. The key is keeping it toghether and not get angry/frustrated, I've found if I can do that, I can usually separate without too much drama. gotta stay calm.

I like to "coach" people using the good, better, best way of thinking.

I think your method is good... .might even be up there towards better.

What strategy or technique from the lessons would be the "best" way of dealing with the emotion behind a circular argument?

[Inquisitive1]

Formflier, I'm not really sure what would be best... .Maybe validation. Though, I've been in the circle before and validation doesn't necessarily end it. So maybe setting a boundary, but it seems what I wrote implied that.

As an interesting aside, since I've stopped JADE'ing and getting angry as much, and validating more, my wife seems more accepting of me saying we need to stop talking about a topic that's gotten circular. Before I paint too rosey a picture, while these techniques help, a major part of our progress is due to the fact she is no longer under the pressure of a hostile work place.

[formflier]

Formflier, I'm not really sure what would be best... .Maybe validation. Though, I've been in the circle before and validation doesn't necessarily end it. So maybe setting a boundary, but it seems what I wrote implied that.

As an interesting aside, since I've stopped JADE'ing and getting angry as much, and validating more, my wife seems more accepting of me saying we need to stop talking about a topic that's gotten circular. Before I paint too rosey a picture, while these techniques help, a major part of our progress is due to the fact she is no longer under the pressure of a hostile work place.

Think of validation not as an "answer"... .but as the oil that makes the machinery work... .or a salve that keeps something from hurting to much.

So... .circular detector goes off... .validate validate... .try to listen and think if there is a specific emotion.

Maybe even directly ask what she is feeling... .

If an accusation comes back... .

softly... ."help me understand... .xyz"

At some point... .validate... .let her know you are going to take a 5 minute break to think... .and get her a glass of water... .or something like that.

If she is still after it... take a 10 minute break... .and longer as needed.

Hopefully you can redirect and get emotions down.

Don't try to "win" or make her "cave in"... .just get out of the circle... .and move along.  Don't remind about old circles... .you will get sucked back in.

[vortex of confusion]

One of the things that I have started to do recently is simply listen and avoid engaging at all. It means that no progress is made but it also means that I don't have to worry about JADEing. Last night, my husband was going on about something. I think he was trying to analyze our day out and was trying to get me to engage in the conversation. I simply wouldn't engage. I sat and nodded and listened while singing, "This is the song that doesn't end. It goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it not know what it was and they'll continue singing it forever just because this is the song that doesn't end." (It is the song from the old kid show Lamb Chop.)

I was listening to him enough to know what he was saying so I could validate it but I tried my best to stay emotionally detached. At some point, I think I said something along the lines of, "Hmmm, I hear what you are saying. I'll have to think about that."

[formflier]

  It means that no progress is made... .

That is not necessarily a bad thing...

Remember the "validation rules"

Focus first on not invalidating... .it seems you did that well. 

In situations like this in the future... .maybe soft "what are you feeling?"  or "'what are you trying to accomplish... "

Remember to stay away from "why"... .

Maybe even try to stay away from "what".

Anyone think of a way to rephrase the two questions I posed... .and make them softer... .?

[vortex of confusion]

That is not necessarily a bad thing...

Remember the "validation rules"

Focus first on not invalidating... .it seems you did that well. 

In situations like this in the future... .maybe soft "what are you feeling?"  or "'what are you trying to accomplish... "

Remember to stay away from "why"... .

Maybe even try to stay away from "what".

Anyone think of a way to rephrase the two questions I posed... .and make them softer... .?

I have been thinking about this and going over some of our past conversations that seemed to go on forever.

First, it feels like any kind of question, can lead to him being frustrated. I don't remember how it came about but I know that recently, he responded, "I'm sorry. I was just trying to have a conversation with you."

In thinking about a lot of our conversations, I don't think there is feeling involved because the outcome of the discussion has no real bearing on anything. I am thinking about some of the more philosophical discussions that we had. My husband is a philosopher so it seems that it really is about him getting me to agree. In thinking about our interactions, there are times that he will completely change his stance just so that we can be in agreement on things. I don't feel the need to have some kind of unilateral agreement. I want to be able to have my own thoughts without feeling like there has to be some level of agreement. There have been times when I have tried to stick with what I think/feel only for him to try to keep it going. If he can't get me to agree with him, then he will change his stance and say something like, "It looks like we are in agreement. We are saying the same things just in different ways." I started just saying "okay" and leaving it at that.

What I really want to do is scream, "Stop it! Stop trying to make us just alike. I am my own person and you are your own person."

[Inquisitive1]

I like this just listen approach. That can be good when my wife is expressing things upon which I don't agree. I can do some mild validation, reflecting the feelings she expresses, but just not engage in trying to correct her misconception.

This is difficult for me because I grew up in a family where truth was highly valued, I'm a scientist, and getting to the truth is a core value of mine. While I still cannot fully embrace letting go of her misconceptions, the practical benefit of NOT JADE'ing is becoming clear to me.

I'm not sure how to rephrase the questions Formflier posted. I'd like to see some examples. Rather than asking questions, which can be problematic, I'd probably try to understand the underlying emotion/goal and reflect that to my wife: "I'm sorry you feel i was trying to controll you."

A couple of things Vortex says are definitely familiar to me. My BPDw seems to find questions irritating much of the time. She also has a hard time leaving things in a state of disagreement... .she wants everything resolved by the end of the conversation. I wonder if these aren't common BPD characteristics.

Sometimes, I tell my wife, we'll just have to agree to disagree... .sometimes she accepts this.

[debyt]

Trying to explain myself does not work and only escalates things.

Yup... .this is so true.  JADE is right on.  I learned how to JADE from my mom who was married to a narcissist drunk.  It didn't do her any good either, they don't empathize.  Please explain again just why I am putting up with this and trying to get through each day without feeling like a failure at marriage.?  I always heard Dr. Laura say the three A's were enough to leave: Abuse, Addiction and Adultery.  I get intimidated by him, not abused, he's addicted to sex but won't have an affair to cause me to leave... .I feel like I am the one who needs to be admitted sometimes... .and just even trying to have a conversation turns into a "you are the reason I feel so bad about me"... .Jesus give me strength!

[DreamFlyer99]

and just even trying to have a conversation turns into a "you are the reason I feel so bad about me"... .

OH this is so familiar!

[formflier]

Trying to explain myself does not work and only escalates things.

Yup... .this is so true.  JADE is right on.  I learned how to JADE from my mom who was married to a narcissist drunk.  It didn't do her any good either, they don't empathize.  Please explain again just why I am putting up with this and trying to get through each day without feeling like a failure at marriage.?  I always heard Dr. Laura say the three A's were enough to leave: Abuse, Addiction and Adultery.  I get intimidated by him, not abused, he's addicted to sex but won't have an affair to cause me to leave... .I feel like I am the one who needs to be admitted sometimes... .and just even trying to have a conversation turns into a "you are the reason I feel so bad about me"... .Jesus give me strength!

Debyt,

Welcome to the staying board.  If you look off to the right you will see "the lessons".  Have you looked through those yet?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206

I encourage you to start your own thread on the staying board.  I think that we can help you get the "temperature" down some in your home and r/s (relationship).  That will give you some breathing room to sort out some of your plans.

 

We can help! 

[waverider]

just to throw another term into the mix what do you guys thing about using the word "understand', as in "I understand what you are saying/

Good or bad... Pros and cons. hint; Think carefully about the consequence of whether you do or dont say this.

[Inquisitive1]

Using the word 'understand' has backfired on me multiple times. My wife will gets irritated and says I can't understand because her experience is different than mine. Then she'll often bring up some of the traumatic things she's experienced including her childhood.

[maxsterling]

That speaks to giving our loved ones with BPD advice too--unless they ask "what would you do?" that very shaky sense of self a pwBPD has? well, again, our saying "you should" "you might" --pretty much "you" anything feels invalidating, and like we aren't really listening to their specific thoughts/feelings.

Sorry to drag up something from page 1, but I realized something struck me here.  I get asked "should I?" about a dozen times a day.  I feel trapped!  "Should I wear this?"  "Should I call the doctor today?"  "Should I eat this?"  If there were two words I could strike from her vocabulary it would be "should" and "whatever".  Does anyone else get bombarded with the "should I?" How do you handle it?  It just seems to be set up for invalidation and accusations of being controlling.  I've tried saying "I don't know, that's up to you." but that usually backfires.  So pwBPD hate it when others tell them what they should or shouldn't do, or how they should feel (I hate it too!), but what about when they are constantly asking you what they should do?

[maxsterling]

just to throw another term into the mix what do you guys thing about using the word "understand', as in "I understand what you are saying/

Good or bad... Pros and cons. hint; Think carefully about the consequence of whether you do or dont say this.

All I know is that if I say "I understand", I am sometimes challenged as to whether or not I actually do understand.  Challenged in a mean way .  And one of her favorite phrases is, ":)o you understand?"  She says it as if I am stupid, or expects that I don't understand, or simply because I haven't responded quick enough to some kind of a statement that doesn't really warrant a response. 

Her: "It's very cold in here."

Me: [no quick response, because that is a statement, not a request or a question]

Her [5-10 seconds later]:  "Hello?  Did you hear me?  Do you understand? I'm, cold!"