do they care if we forgive them?

[merlin4926]

Feel like I'm posting a lot but I am having tough couple of days. I want to eventually 'forgive' him for all the pain and I want for us to both move on. It just got me thinking whether our opinion of them matters to them at all. My expbd used to say "everyone I've ever cared about ends up hating me" and i know this really hurt him.  So if they know we are healed and are doing ok does this relieve any of their pain?

At the moment I feel like I'll never get over it but as I say it's been tough couple days

[Tibbles]

I'm not sure if my opinion mattered or not. He used to decide what I thought and nothing I said would change his perception of what I thought. Often he was simply wrong but that made no difference. It was all part of the changing reality to fit his emotional state.

[TheBPDSurvivor]

The more and more you share what's going on your mind with us, Nons; let it be sadness/depression or happiness, the sooner the recovery as it makes you feel validated.

Holding onto the Grudge means you're still giving him power and control over your thoughts. The radical acceptance of forgiving comes from within, not the other way around.

Merlin, they're sick from inside to outside and they do this all the time. They did this to so many peoples in the past and they don't really care about what YOU think. They make us believe like whatever we say are godsay for them during the honeymoon period. You're still holding onto that thought whereas the truth is, its all the manipulation tactic to take control over us.

My uBPDexgf also said this during our honeymoon period like "everyone I've ever cared about ends up hating me" and "not a single person in her life stayed any longer than 2-3 months in her life". Its pretty big redflag I shouldn't have ignored but you know; we're not aware of this disorder at that time. Its actually their "victim mode" kicking in so we'd jump in with the shining armor and rescue them. Its the part of manipulation too.

They're the sickest selfish people you can ever see in this planet earth. Showing to them that you've moved on without them in your life will only increase their abandonment fear and temporary guilt 100x times but eventuallly there'll be another white knight waiting to rescue them from the endless sorrow.

Keep posting Merlin. Sending you hugs   and peaceful positive vibes.  

[Ihope2]

I think we need to stop obsessing about getting through to the Borderline.

When we do our recovery work I think  we need to let go as much as we can and forgive both ourselves and the pwBPD.

But don't expect the forgiveness to be a two-way street.  The unrecovered pwBPD will not know what to make of the forgiveness, their reality is so different to ours.  Most likely, they blame us for a lot of things, if not everything and are stuck in their dysphoria and negativity and self-pity and blame and shame and have vowed to keep us forever accountable for their sufferings.

[drummerboy]

Totally agree with all the replies that talk about letting go of what the exBPD thinks and feels and concentrate on ourselves. I am so done thinking about my ex. She is walking her own path now as am I. She became emotional baggage and it's easier walk our path with less baggage.

I do wish her well and hope she gets treatment some day but I really couldn't care what she thinks of me, all that matters is what I think of me.

[mywifecrazy]

I think we need to stop obsessing about getting through to the Borderline.

When we do our recovery work I think  we need to let go as much as we can and forgive both ourselves and the pwBPD.

But don't expect the forgiveness to be a two-way street.  The unrecovered pwBPD will not know what to make of the forgiveness, their reality is so different to ours.  Most likely, they blame us for a lot of things, if not everything and are stuck in their dysphoria and negativity and self-pity and blame and shame and have vowed to keep us forever accountable for their sufferings.

This is so true but oh so hard. It's hard to stop hating someone for what they've done and continue to do that hurts you in a personal way. It's also hard to let go of someone when we see how much they are destroying themselves. I did love this person for 20 years. Part of me wants to see her accountable for her actions against me and our sons but part of me doesn't want to see her hurting... .It IS a thin line between love and hate!

I need to FULLY accept the knowledge that she is a mentally sick person to get to the place where I am at complete peace.

MWC... .

[maxen]

my stbxw felt hurt when i said i forgave her, because it suggested she was culpable for something.

please don't rush yourself, merlin, these things take time. detaching is very hard. if you're not over it now, you will be. let this come naturally. do you talk to a T?

[myself]

They would like it if we forgave them, to help ease their shame, because they know how responsible they were for so much of what went wrong. But they won't ask for it, because that would acknowledge their role. Approaching them with forgiveness would be a move we made for ourselves. Closing a door more than keeping one open? Kind of us to share it with them, but most likely they would just deflect it, painting us even blacker in the process. I forgive my ex for some things, but that's for me. It's who I am. It's how I'm getting through this. She might come to a sense of forgiveness about me, too (forgiving what?), but that's her version of the story. What's most important is we let ourselves off the hook. Stop being so weighed down so we can rise above.

[fred6]

No, they don't care. Even through all the cheating, lying, and psychological warfare that she's done. I told her that since I truly love her that I forgive her. Her reply in her dismissive disgusted tone, "I didn't ask you to forgive me". Kind of F'd up and very hurtful to tell someone that when they are only trying to forgive you for doing horrible things to them. I have never heard of someone saying such a thing when being forgiven.

[gentquality]

I'm not sure if my opinion mattered or not. He used to decide what I thought and nothing I said would change his perception of what I thought. Often he was simply wrong but that made no difference. It was all part of the changing reality to fit his emotional state.

you stole the words right out of my mouth.  I'm often told how I felt during a certain time no matter how much I try to argue that I was not.  It's mentally draining.

[Caredverymuch]

Feel like I'm posting a lot but I am having tough couple of days. I want to eventually 'forgive' him for all the pain and I want for us to both move on. It just got me thinking whether our opinion of them matters to them at all. My expbd used to say "everyone I've ever cared about ends up hating me" and i know this really hurt him.  So if they know we are healed and are doing ok does this relieve any of their pain?

At the moment I feel like I'll never get over it but as I say it's been tough couple days

Hi Merlin, posting is very helpful to process the feelings that go along detaching and we are so glad you are doing so. 

I understand your desire for mutual forgiveness which seems an important step in your journey. This was important to me as well bc it would have allowed some sort of mature closure.  Additionally, I cared very much for my ex despite the chaos and immense confusion.

I think whats important to remember is that these r/s are not like others we have in our lives. The disorder brings about very different coping mechanisms when the pBPD moves on from the r/s in attempt to dissociate from the abandonment issues and the shame issues. Additionally, they dont really end the r/s fully bc ppl are attachments that may be recycled or baited at later dates.  So, their closure will not be the same  as our closure need. 

Forgiveness means being reflective and accountable. Things they cant really do when they split and move on.

That said, the forgiveness should be focused inward to heal.  I was also met with a snide coldness when I attempted this adult conversation.  I offered that I would always support my ex.  His response was he did not need my support.  I offered it would help me greatly to have closure bc I loved him. His response was that he couldn't really ever see us as over.  When I talked about forgiving him for all the hurt, he projected and said he was the one who was hurt.  Mind you, he left me.  Out of no where.

Knowing what I know now about ppl being attachments, his statements make sense.

I admire you for your altruistic intention.  I do agree with the majority however that the chances are slim. 

[Mr Hollande]

I agree that forgiveness should only be for oneself. It's wasted on the BPD and might send the mixed signal that it is somehow OK to come back and cause mayhem again. Mine spent her time toing and froing over ex's. Especially the father of her child. One minute he was guilty of unspeakable abuse and the next she was in tears over the shell of a man she'd left behind after 12 years or her behaviours. Poor guy is attached to her for life thanks to the kid. I'm sure he has forgiven her or at least tried. Judging by her ruminations over the failed relationship with him I believe forgiveness does matter to her. At least depending on what state her insanity takes her to at various moments. She will never get any forgiveness from me. Not ever.

[merlin4926]

[quoteif you're not over it now, you will be. let this come naturally. do you talk to a T?[/quote]
Thanks everyone great help as always. I did have 6 weeks of counselling which was huge help. After my last session I felt really strong and positive. As if by magic the next day he tracked me down and sucked me back in!   Like he knew. Tbh he always preferred me when I was strong but only I suspect so he could weaken me again.

I think I'm doing ok because this time it's me that's done and I am getting so much help from you guys x

[hergestridge]

My xwife doesn't care if I forgive her because she assumes I will eventually forgive her. The notion that she's blown it for good is just too much so she pretends like everything's fine and dandy.

She acts surprised at my bitterness again and again. Over and over. It's like a kind of gaslighting in itself; "What is that I did to you again? I don't remember... .".

She broke up with me with the most hurtful words possible and said "Let's be friends".

I didn't say anything. I just walked away.

I know that she read that as "He just needs some time".

Sometimes I think she has more narcisistic traits than I have realised.

[Blimblam]

The role forgiveness plays in all if this is more profound than anything i had ever imagined. I find that the forgiveness is sort of universal and when I focus it on specifics I the material it sort of doesn't help it makes it all personal.  I continue to struggle with this.  It is something beyond what my mind could contain on it's own an had been sent down into my body.  It has decended into the physical.  So the work must be done their by being present in the moment.  Which is accepting that the past is present in this moment held as trauma in my body.  So being present also means feeling all if these repressed emotions.  I have spent so much of my life present in concious awareness or off in my head but not really feeling all the crappy physical sensations held by my body. 

Thoughts as they occur in the mind are a reflection if our interpretation Of the moment.  To be present in the moment is to feel all the pain and suffering held in the body we have all run from our entire lives.  No positive or negative no good or bad just being. Once it is processed then perhaps I will know what it is to be in the now.

[drummerboy]

I'm reading a great book about this at the moment. The Untethered Soul. It talks about how we manufacture emotions and feelings and like seeing a car driving down the road, we can see it, look at it, but they are not actually "us". To not fight them, but to just acknowledge that they exist but they are not "us".

I totally agree about forgiveness. The main person we must forgive is ourselves. My T is always telling me to be kind to myself, to stop beating myself up. Forgiveness is perhaps the most noble thing that we ever do. Anger, towards ourselves or towards others, just consumes us, anger takes a lot of energy and it doesn't achieve a thing. To forgive means that we are taking the only rational option, that we accept that which we cannot change. Forgiveness is not actually about the other person, it is where we find our peace.

We all have to stop worrying about what our ex's think about us or about anything. We have to get on with living our lives and they can do and think whatever they want, it's their life. To worry about what they think of us or whether they forgive us is just our egos talking. Yes, it's natural to not want to be rejected and for others to not think badly of us, but in the end, its what we think of ourselves that really matters.

The role forgiveness plays in all if this is more profound than anything i had ever imagined. I find that the forgiveness is sort of universal and when I focus it on specifics I the material it sort of doesn't help it makes it all personal.  I continue to struggle with this.  It is something beyond what my mind could contain on it's own an had been sent down into my body.  It has decended into the physical.  So the work must be done their by being present in the moment.  Which is accepting that the past is present in this moment held as trauma in my body.  So being present also means feeling all if these repressed emotions.  I have spent so much of my life present in concious awareness or off in my head but not really feeling all the crappy physical sensations held by my body.  

Thoughts as they occur in the mind are a reflection if our interpretation Of the moment.  To be present in the moment is to feel all the pain and suffering held in the body we have all run from our entire lives.  No positive or negative no good or bad just being. Once it is processed then perhaps I will know what it is to be in the now.

[hergestridge]

if you have to deal with your ex on a regular basis, then it's different (we have a daughter). My choice not to forgive has to do with integrity and boundaries. If am even a little bit nice to xwife, she will assume I gave forgiven and forgotten everything and I will have to start the boundary setting all over. All kinds of lines will be blurred.

I am reminded constantly of who she is and what she has done to me. I wish I would never have to see her again.

[Blimblam]

if you have to deal with your ex on a regular basis, then it's different (we have a daughter). My choice not to forgive has to do with integrity and boundaries. If am even a little bit nice to xwife, she will assume I gave forgiven and forgotten everything and I will have to start the boundary setting all over. All kinds of lines will be blurred.

I am reminded constantly of who she is and what she has done to me. I wish I would never have to see her again.

I'm so sorry man. This sounds so difficult to have to go through

[MrFox]

In my opinion, they are not looking for forgiveness.  At least not on the surface, the conscious mind.  To be forgiven, even more so to accept that forgiveness, would mean that they did something wrong to begin with.  They would have to admit that the did something wrong to be forgiven for.

It's not forgiveness they want, because they didn't do anything wrong in their minds.  What they want is for us not to be mad at them.  If we aren't mad then there is always the chance that they can reel us back in.

There is most likely a part of them that does want that forgiveness.  It is that part that keeps them up at night, the part that they try to bury under a flood of alcohol or drugs or sex, the part of them that is the good that we see in them.  Call it the inner child, inner-self, the soul, whatever you choose to call it.  It wants that forgiveness but you can't yell loud enough for that part of them to hear.

[Blimblam]

In my opinion, they are not looking for forgiveness.  At least not on the surface, the conscious mind.  To be forgiven, even more so to accept that forgiveness, would mean that they did something wrong to begin with.  They would have to admit that the did something wrong to be forgiven for.

It's not forgiveness they want, because they didn't do anything wrong in their minds.  What they want is for us not to be mad at them.  If we aren't mad then there is always the chance that they can reel us back in.

There is most likely a part of them that does want that forgiveness.  It is that part that keeps them up at night, the part that they try to bury under a flood of alcohol or drugs or sex, the part of them that is the good that we see in them.  Call it the inner child, inner-self, the soul, whatever you choose to call it.  It wants that forgiveness but you can't yell loud enough for that part of them to hear.

Pretty much sums it all up. Great post.

[Infern0]

Forgiveness,  no.

In my experience mine could not stand to think I "hated" her.  After her rages if I walked away, she would always reach out in a mad panic that I hated her.

Remember feelings are facts to the BPD.  

In the case of mine she was set down this path at an early age.  She needs constant reassurance that I don't hate her and she needs constant validation.

In my case I have found a middle ground somewhat in our current communication. She will not accept blame,  but also does not blame me. It's just "bad things happened" I will not apologize,  but we built somewhat of a bridge.

You have to remember BPD are ultimate self loathing. They are disregulated tremendously. In the case of mine she tries her best but things always go wrong. She wants to be a good person but it isn't that easy when she just doesn't know what a good person is. One of the things that doesn't help is that usually people don't know what is wrong with her so it's impossible to have any sort of understanding of what she reacts to or how to help the situation.

I have employed S.E.T to great effect during our communications now and she responds very well to it.

So in short,  no they don't want forgiveness because they can't stand to assume any blame,  to do so would just be way too much to handle.  They do want validation that they aren't a "bad person" if you can find it in yourself that it's mostly the disorder manifesting in their behaviour,  then you can validate and it might give you closure on some level.

Just my opinion

[freedom33]

It is not possible to accept blame of any sort so she won't be asking for your forgiveness. Offering it irrespectively will feel presumptuous and will enrage her. The need to offer forgiveness to her seems to me a masked inability to offer it to ourselves.

I would feel redeemed being able to sit down with her and be forgiven/forgive the things we did to each other. But then if there was a capacity for reconciliation we 'd be together - you need insight for that. What happened in previous reconciliation attempts was I taking the blame for some things and instead of being reciprocated she 'd just find a few more to blame me for  ... .It was both of us against me at the start. I would be blamed for everything and for a couple of months I 'd willfully take it.  

I will never forget this moment - When I took responsibility and apologised for something minor in the first month she said 'aaaaaww - a man that apologises... .!" with a greedy smile and an enchanted voice of a little girl seeing a cake for the first time.

[blackmirror]

Merlin.  I can relate to having bad days.  I also know how it feels to apologize for sharing but that is why this board is here.  I think most people regardless of whatever label they may carry want to be forgiven but what a person sees as forgiveness depends a lot on how if was.shown very early in life.  But I would have to say yeah as a person with bipolar disorder I definitely have BPD traits that have subsided with age I know I wanted forgiveness.  But being truly ready to forgive is very important if you want to keep a person in your life.  Be ready to never bring it up again.

[Rise]

It's wasted on the BPD and might send the mixed signal that it is somehow OK to come back and cause mayhem again.

It's my belief that we should forgive, not for our exes, but for ourselves. I chose to forgive my ex because it just wasn't worth carrying around all the anger and resentment anymore. It served it's purpose, but there came a point after which it was just making me feel bad. So I let it go and I forgave her. And personally, I believe if we are forgiving for our own sakes, there's not a need to tell our exes. It's not about them. It's about us and our own inner peace. And if that's the case, there's not really a chance of sending mixed signals.

[Take2]

[quoteif you're not over it now, you will be. let this come naturally. do you talk to a T?

Thanks everyone great help as always. I did have 6 weeks of counselling which was huge help. After my last session I felt really strong and positive. As if by magic the next day he tracked me down and sucked me back in!   Like he knew. Tbh he always preferred me when I was strong but only I suspect so he could weaken me again.[/quote]
That is such a true statement for me as well.  It's like my ex has some kind of esp and knows when I'm feeling stronger and able to be comfortable in my own skin again.  It's always at those moments that he will reach out and send something - email/instant message.  He's not even close to kind anymore to me - but it still truly messes with my head. 

In regard to the original question about forgiveness... .  I have to agree with what most here have said, yes my ex would love to be forgiven, but he will no longer acknowledge any wrongdoing ever.  He's reached such a bizarre state lately when it comes to me that he denies ever having done anything to me.  He so badly needs to hold on to his reality that he is the good guy and that I am the bad guy.  I've tried having the conversation of "hey - I forgave you for what you did, it's only right that you forgive me for what I did" - of course keep in mind, the things he did were lie, cheat, sleep with other people, scream at me as my dad died (literally), severe verbal/emotional abuse, attempt to "destroy" my life (his words, not mine, and he did give it a go a couple times).  Things I did?  literally - speak to a my male peers at work on a friendly basis.  Nothing REMOTELY inappropriate about the conversations.

The more I've tried to point out the absurdity of his refusing to admit things, of course the worse it's made things.  So does he care if I forgive him ?  No.  Because it would force him to admit the truly horrifying things he's done.  Much easier in his world to be in control and not forgiving me.

[Infern0]

One thing I have found at least with mine is that breaking things down to a childish level does get some response.

"I'm upset because you did this thing to me and you should apologize because it's wrong"

That gets nothing.

"I feel sad because you got mad at me and it makes me sad"

That actually got me an apology!

Mine always communicates using "I feel x emotion" and even though it's nonsense usually,  validation and responding in mirror with "I understand why you might feel that way, I feel x emotion" seems to get through on some level.

Might only work on mine but could be worth bearing in mind.

[Blimblam]

One thing I have found at least with mine is that breaking things down to a childish level does get some response.

"I'm upset because you did this thing to me and you should apologize because it's wrong"

That gets nothing.

"I feel sad because you got mad at me and it makes me sad"

That actually got me an apology!

Might only work on mine but could be worth bearing in mind.

Lol this makes sense.  But being a dancing monkey sucks.

[Infern0]

One thing I have found at least with mine is that breaking things down to a childish level does get some response.

"I'm upset because you did this thing to me and you should apologize because it's wrong"

That gets nothing.

"I feel sad because you got mad at me and it makes me sad"

That actually got me an apology!

Might only work on mine but could be worth bearing in mind.

Lol this makes sense.  But being a dancing monkey sucks.

I see it as communicating with her on her level. Yeah its dumb but really it's like using sign to communicate with a deaf person. I dunno I'm feeling compassionate today haha.

[maxen]

She acts surprised at my bitterness again and again. Over and over. It's like a kind of gaslighting in itself; "What is that I did to you again? I don't remember... .".

She broke up with me with the most hurtful words possible and said "Let's be friends".

I didn't say anything. I just walked away.

I know that she read that as "He just needs some time".

yes, that's how it is. with my stbxw too.

i needed to remember that just now (seriously).

[rockinne]

Lots of inspiring posts here.  I agree that forgiving the other person is a personal thing and their feelings or judgement of you and how you do it has nothing to do with how you should feel.  Forgiveness does not mean forgetting.  My life and my relationships with others was tremendously damaged through my relationships with those who suffer from BPD.  Now, I am working to restore myself as well as relationships with others.  I was angry and resentful for a long time for the way my wife and then my gf manipulated me and did the destructive things they did.  It was only after I realized that those things would never have happened had I not allowed them to.  I allowed myself to be controlled and manipulated, believing that I by so doing I was helping the person controlling me and it was to make her happy.  After realizing what had happened and the sickness they have, I had to get over the anger and resentment.  I am still struggling with that.  More importantly, I need to forgive myself.  I am working on that every day.  I am reading and meditating and journaling every day.  I have been in counseling with a psychologist for over a year.  In my studies I have learned more about myself and found that I have my own disorder and that has contributed to my problems.  I have ADHD, the inattentive kind, and h3ave begun medication therapy for that and continue with the counseling.  My life is very different now.  I am trying to forgive, but I am not forgetting.  There is nothing in forgiveness that says you have to forget.  I think it is important that you never forget.  :)oes it matter to my SO that I forgive her?  I doubt that she will ever believe that I do.  As long as I keep her out of my life, she will never believe that I did.  However, I can no longer live in that toxic and destructive relationship or allow myself to be controlled and manipulated the way that I did before.