May try to make a push in couples T today

[maxsterling]

Couples T is this afternoon.  She's ill, so we may not make it, but if we do I'm thinking this is a time to discuss a few things in there, and see if she is capable of understanding.  The reality for me, after last weekend's dysregulation, it's clear we won't ever have constructive communication unless there are some changes:

If she is feeling upset about something, I need her to come to me and say she is upset about something.  Last weekend she came to me by asking "do you ever... ." followed by a strong negative statement regarding our relationship.  I validated the underlying emotion, yet the followup was a bunch of "you should", "You never" "I wish you would", which I wouldn't validate, and wouldn't participate in.  This followed with 20 minutes of blame and insults of me and my family, followed by me leaving the house to her screaming the "I hate you"

Do you think there is hope of her understanding this?  That if she wants validation she needs to tell me her feelings?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

... .This followed with 20 minutes of blame and insults of me and my family, followed by me leaving the house to her screaming the "I hate you"

I'm a firm believer in boundaries for things like this. I think you did the right thing, but should have done it sooner. The 20 minutes of blame and insults didn't help either you or her.

If you have good boundaries, she *WILL* understand that you aren't going to be an emotional punching bag for her.

Understanding how you feel about this sort of behavior is more questionable... .If she is recovering, she will probably find that more naturally... .and will go back out the window next time she is dysregulated anyhow.

When she understands that you won't stand there for abuse, she will (eventually, or at least most of the time), stop trying... .and if she does, you quickly get out and take care of yourself as a gentle reminder.

[vortex of confusion]

If she is feeling upset about something, I need her to come to me and say she is upset about something.  Last weekend she came to me by asking "do you ever... ." followed by a strong negative statement regarding our relationship.  I validated the underlying emotion, yet the followup was a bunch of "you should", "You never" "I wish you would", which I wouldn't validate, and wouldn't participate in.  This followed with 20 minutes of blame and insults of me and my family, followed by me leaving the house to her screaming the "I hate you"

Do you think there is hope of her understanding this?  That if she wants validation she needs to tell me her feelings?

I had a strong reaction to this when I read it. Does every statement of feelings need to be in an "I feel" format in order to be perceived as a statement of feelings? Have you ever looked at any kinds of resources about fighting fair? There are some really good resources out there about it. It might help you set some ground rules for discussions/fighting. And, if she is open to it, you might even be able to share the information with her because almost all of them include some kind of focus on using "I" statements rather than "you" statements.

My first question was whether or not the "you should" etc. statements were said in a normal tone of voice or were they yelled. How stuff is delivered makes a big difference to me. If my husband is talking, I will stay. If he is yelling or being a jerk, I try to put a stop to it as it is a boundary issues. I do not want to be yelled at.

In my opinion, "you should" etc. are statements of feelings. I know that I have a tendency to tell my husband things like "you should" or "I wish you would." I am continually trying to focus on the "I" statements. Most of the times, those statements from me are born out of feelings of frustration on my part. An example is when I say, "I wish you would empty the dishwasher for me." I am frustrated because he has agreed to help me more around the house and that is one of the things that he has agreed to do. When he doesn't live up to his end of the bargain, I get feelings of frustration and I feel like he was not listening to me when he agreed to help. I am wondering exactly how you expect your partner to approach you about things. Would you feel better if she said something like, "I feel frustrated when you don't <fill in the blank>". That is really just a different way of saying "You should" or "I wish you would".

So, I think each of her statements should be carefully evaluated by you to see if they hold any water so to speak. Is it the BPD talking or does she have a legitimate concern or request? One of the things that I am working on is trying to figure out when my husband's concerns or requests are legitimate and when they are a result of his skewed perception. And, I know that when I am trying to share with my husband and he doesn't respond to something that I think is legitimate, I get even more angry and frustrated. In the past, I have lashed out at him because I felt like he wasn't listening to me. After a couple of times of lashing out and feeling bad about it, I tried to pay closer attention to the dynamic between us so I could change my side of things. (I am still working on that though.)

As to whether or not she will ever understand, who knows? I have tried to adopt the mindset that I am doing what I do for me. I am trying to remove all expectations and act as though things are not going to change on my husband's side of things. Sometimes, that helps but sometimes it makes me more frustrated.

[maxsterling]

@GreyKitty - When the insults started near the beginning of the conversation, I just chose to not participate but didn't say anything immediately.  I could have recognized where this would go much earlier, and specifically told her, ""I would love to talk to you about these issues, but right now I feel like you are simply insulting me and my family, and I will not participate in this kind of conversation."  Instead, I sat in the restaurant and just listened, tried to steer the conversation along a more productive path, but basically sat and felt hurt and rejected.  It would have helped if I enforced the boundary earlier.  It wasn't until she became relentless and asked why I wasn't responding that I told her that I will not respond to insults.  And that's when it exploded.

@vortex - I see where you are coming from.  And yes, context does make a difference.  I also agree that it is a statement of how one feels.  In my opinion, an appropriate context of using "you should... ." is when I ask for advice.  Q:"Where is a good place to go to shop for pants?" R:  "You should check out the sales at the outlet mall."

Other times it may be unsolicited advice, and to me that comes across as extremely invalidating or an attempt at controlling.  "You should go to the outlet mall and buy new pants."  Yes, that conveys a feeling, that she doesn't like the way my pants look on me.  And that statement reacts in me like she is trying to control how I dress, or hates the way I look, yet she won't come out and directly say it.  Others I have heard, "You should look for a higher paying job."  "You should buy a new car."  Does she have any authority to tell me what I should or shouldn't do regarding my career or my car?  That's what it feels like to me, that she is trying to impose her will upon me.  Obviously she feels frustration over my job or my car, but there are other ways of communicating that to me without sounding like she is trying to control.    I don't mind her having opinions on the way I should live my life (although those opinions do her mental health no good because she is focusing on me and not on her), but to come out and say that "I should" do this or that invalidates my own feelings on those subjects.

As for the "I wish you would... .", it's a similar thing.  Obviously she has a feeling of frustration that I am doing or not doing something.  I can understand that.  But, by saying "I wish you would" feels like she is blaming me for her feelings.  I just know that if I went to her with "you should" or "I wish you would" I would be screamed at for being controlling or manipulative, and she would likely resist my suggestions simply because she would feel I was telling her to do them.  She goes to AA meetings, and often comes home complaining that everyone at the meetings are always telling her what she should and shouldn't do to manage her life.  I remember once her sponsor told her that she should go to the hospital.  She, of course, immediately told me, saying "I am sick and tired of people telling me what I should do for my mental health.  They don't know me and don't know how hard I am working!" 

I'm working on new ways of communicating my wishes and needs to her that avoid making it sound like I am telling her what to do or how to live her life. 

[ColdEthyl]

Max, I've been working on this myself lately, realizing the insults or the petty stuff he complains about is usually just the cloak of something bigger bothering him.

I've put up boundaries about the insults. He hasn't dropped any in bout a month now, though he was dysregulated about a week ago, and kept grasping at straws to start a fight about something... .anything when he was really upset about something else. He tried to criticize how I was playing a video game, and when that didn't work, he called me a democrat (no offense, demos!)  like that was going to do it. I seriously had to fight not to laugh.

The trick for me is figuring out exactly what's bothering him, and once I know the root cause, we can discuss that. I'm amazed at how long it took mt to not get hurt by his crap and realize that the behavior is an effect of the FEELING he's having that he can't control properly.

Truth is, I don't think he will ever come right out and talk about what's bothering him... .there's a really good chance he doesn't even know right away.

Language is the most important part here. My husband has gotten angry because when he tell me he hates himself, in the past I've told him "he shouldn't feel that way" and his response was anger and to tell me no one can tell him how to feel... .his feelings are his own.

What I've started to do now is eye contact, nodding, and saying "I understand how you feel" or "I would feel like that too" or that's some BS! Including small things he complains about like his laundry (which he can do himself--I used to just do it for him, but not after I've washed things because he didn't empty his own pockets, yet it's my fault for missing it before it went into the washer) he will complain he doesn't have clean clothes, I don't do it anymore I just say yep! Not having clean clothes sucks... .and he does them now :P

[vortex of confusion]

I thought of something else that I have done with mixed results. One of the things that I read regarding discussing/fighting is to make physical contact in addition to eye contact. Reach out and try to hold a hand or touch a shoulder or something. It is supposed to help keep things from escalating. I couldn't find the list for fair fighting that we have tried to use but I did find this one:

www.foryourmarriage.org/25-ways-to-fight-fair/

I used to try to implement all of those things but after a long time of things declining I gave up and stopped trying. It was good for me to look these up again. We had a list of rules to fight fair posted on our refrigerator for a long time. Heck, we have a poster about peaceful conflict resolution in our hallway but that seems to get ignored or overlooked.

[adventurer]

Other times it may be unsolicited advice, and to me that comes across as extremely invalidating or an attempt at controlling.  "You should go to the outlet mall and buy new pants."  Yes, that conveys a feeling, that she doesn't like the way my pants look on me.  And that statement reacts in me like she is trying to control how I dress, or hates the way I look, yet she won't come out and directly say it.  Others I have heard, "You should look for a higher paying job."  "You should buy a new car."  Does she have any authority to tell me what I should or shouldn't do regarding my career or my car?  That's what it feels like to me, that she is trying to impose her will upon me.

This is exactly what my wife does ALL THE TIME, it drives me nuts and I could never figure out why before.  Life with her is a constant power struggle and I think this is 100% an extension of that.  How do you handle when she does this?  One thing my wife always suggests when I'm under the weather is 'You should go to the acupuncturist.'  Now that will usually run $100-150 and we cannot afford that.  If I tell her we can't afford it we get to start the argument she loves to have where I only care about money.  Usually I just defuse it now and say, 'yup that would be great I should do that sometime' and then never go, but now she's accusing me of being insincere.  Maybe you have a better way to handle this.

[maxsterling]

Thanks, vortex.  I looked over that list and... .interestingly it is very similar to a list given by our couples T that still sits in the back seat of my car  I took the list, read it, and kept it.  My fiancé?  Who knows.  I read that list a few weeks ago deciding whether to keep it.  It's a very good list, and I agree with it.  I see areas where I need to improve, and have worked on those.  But I also see where my fiancé regularly violates almost every item.  The problem is, with a pwBPD, if you are "fighting" (I hate that term) with him/her, that means he/she is dysregulated.  And when he/she is dysregulated, the part of his/her brain that controls rational thought (the part where these rules reside) is completely switched off.  I think that's part of the reason why I hear over and over that couples T is futile with a pwBPD.  They are just incapable of a "healthy" relationship in the traditional sense and using the cooperative tools that the T is trying to teach us as a couple.  Compromise is unnatural for a pwBPD, whereas double standards are the norm.  Everything I have read or heard about healthy relationships says that double standards and an inability to compromise are relationship killers.

[maxsterling]

Other times it may be unsolicited advice, and to me that comes across as extremely invalidating or an attempt at controlling.  "You should go to the outlet mall and buy new pants."  Yes, that conveys a feeling, that she doesn't like the way my pants look on me.  And that statement reacts in me like she is trying to control how I dress, or hates the way I look, yet she won't come out and directly say it.  Others I have heard, "You should look for a higher paying job."  "You should buy a new car."  Does she have any authority to tell me what I should or shouldn't do regarding my career or my car?  That's what it feels like to me, that she is trying to impose her will upon me.

This is exactly what my wife does ALL THE TIME, it drives me nuts and I could never figure out why before.  Life with her is a constant power struggle and I think this is 100% an extension of that.  How do you handle when she does this?  One thing my wife always suggests when I'm under the weather is 'You should go to the acupuncturist.'  Now that will usually run $100-150 and we cannot afford that.  If I tell her we can't afford it we get to start the argument she loves to have where I only care about money.  Usually I just defuse it now and say, 'yup that would be great I should do that sometime' and then never go, but now she's accusing me of being insincere.  Maybe you have a better way to handle this.

With me, one cough and I should go to the doctor.  Cat pukes and he should go to the vet.  If I don't go, it's because I don't care about my health.  I haven't found a good way to handle this.  In the past I have tried to change the subject, but sometimes she has then accused me of not caring about her concerns.  I've also tried saying something like, "yeah, I'm a little concerned, but I've had this issue before.  If it doesn't go away by tomorrow, I will call the doctor."  Or with the cat "yeah, he goes through spells where he pukes a few times, and then he won't puke anymore for a long time.  If he keeps like this or starts looking lethargic, I will take him to the vet."  Usually, that works.  But we did have a sick guinea pig we took to the vet, and she questioned whether it was worth it after we saw the $100 bill.  So if I did go to the doctor for every little thing, she would then worry about how much that costs.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks, vortex.  I looked over that list and... .interestingly it is very similar to a list given by our couples T that still sits in the back seat of my car  I took the list, read it, and kept it.  My fiancé?  Who knows.  I read that list a few weeks ago deciding whether to keep it.  It's a very good list, and I agree with it.  I see areas where I need to improve, and have worked on those.  But I also see where my fiancé regularly violates almost every item.  The problem is, with a pwBPD, if you are "fighting" (I hate that term) with him/her, that means he/she is dysregulated.  And when he/she is dysregulated, the part of his/her brain that controls rational thought (the part where these rules reside) is completely switched off.  I think that's part of the reason why I hear over and over that couples T is futile with a pwBPD.  They are just incapable of a "healthy" relationship in the traditional sense and using the cooperative tools that the T is trying to teach us as a couple.  Compromise is unnatural for a pwBPD, whereas double standards are the norm.  Everything I have read or heard about healthy relationships says that double standards and an inability to compromise are relationship killers.

Even if my spouse doesn't use it and ignores it half the time, I can still strive to do those things. When I pretty much gave up, I felt horrible and the conflict increased dramatically. There for a while I dysregulated and I was of the mindset that if he could be a jerk, so could I. That didn't work so well. LOL.

[MissyM]

One of the things that I read regarding discussing/fighting is to make physical contact in addition to eye contact. Reach out and try to hold a hand or touch a shoulder or something. It is supposed to help keep things from escalating. I couldn't find the list for fair fighting that we have tried to use but I did find this one:

Touching really helps with my dBPDh, it almost always has a calming effect.  When he is highly dysregulated, he pushes me away because he doesn't want to clam down.  Some of the things on the list do NOT work with BPD.  Anger may be a valid emotion but BPDs are so sensitive that expressing anger towards them doesn't work.  This is one of the things we have talked about in DBT.   It doesn't mean I don't ever get angry but the angrier I am, the more likely my dBPDh is to blow up and flee.

[vortex of confusion]

Some of the things on the list do NOT work with BPD.  Anger may be a valid emotion but BPDs are so sensitive that expressing anger towards them doesn't work.  This is one of the things we have talked about in DBT.   It doesn't mean I don't ever get angry but the angrier I am, the more likely my dBPDh is to blow up and flee.

I wish I would have known that a whole lot of years ago. I had been reading a whole bunch of stuff to try to improve myself and our relationship but nothing seemed to work. I was really beginning to think that my husband was just an ___hole so I started being one too. I am sure everyone can guess how well that worked.

And that makes a lot of sense and explains a lot of things because I have noticed that I can't be angry or he gets even angrier than usual. If I am happy, he is happy. If I am mad, he is mad and then some. The list does help set some boundaries. Even if the stuff doesn't work, it can still be used as a guideline to set boundaries for yourself. I actually just had that epiphany and am wondering if the stuff on the list can be translated into boundaries that I can set with regards to how I will allow myself to be treated.

[formflier]

 

I was the same way... .before I started learning about BPD traits.

I figured that if she can fight... .I can fight too.  My voice is louder... .so I can drown her out... .and effectively stop the argument.  That "worked" for the moment... .but left scars on the r/s that we are still working on healing.

The point I hope everyone gets from reading this is that helping your r/s recover from BPD traits usually follows a similar pattern.

I see light bulbs going on for many that I have been following.  Keep up the good work... .you have found hope for a better r/s in the future... .

[Grey Kitty]

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner here!

The problem is, with a pwBPD, if you are "fighting" (I hate that term) with him/her, that means he/she is dysregulated.  And when he/she is dysregulated, the part of his/her brain that controls rational thought (the part where these rules reside) is completely switched off.

Once the dysregulation starts, any engagement with them will make things worse.

The only productive thing you can do at that point is to disengage and wait for them (and likely yourself!) to spool down to a reasonable emotional state.

A pwBPD can fight fair, and can behave in healthy ways... .just not while dysregulated!

The way I'd take that sort of fair fighting list has two parts: 1. I try my best to fight fair. 2. If my parther isn't fighting fair, I either try to direct it back into fair territory (briefly) or simply step out of the fight.

[formflier]

  or simply step out of the fight.

Note for some of the newer people to the board.

This took me a while.  Most likely it will you guys as well.

But this is a critical part of "stopping the bleeding".  Now that I've been practicing this for a while it does seem easier... .and then you get to a stage where the "unfair fighting" dies down to the point where you don't have to think much about "stepping out of the fight".

[MissyM]

I wish I would have known that a whole lot of years ago. I had been reading a whole bunch of stuff to try to improve myself and our relationship but nothing seemed to work. I was really beginning to think that my husband was just an ___hole so I started being one too. I am sure everyone can guess how well that worked.

Oh, me too!  We had a therapist, years ago, that basically told me I couldn't get upset with my husband but never explained why.  That left me furious because once again my feelings weren't valid.  Until recently, no one, had explained to me what was going on.  I believe that the therapist recognized my husband had BPD but didn't really understand how to treat it.  Now, I can get upset, I just try to talk it out with my support system and then talk to my dBPDh in a more neutral way.  I do not always succeed, but I am definitely doing better than before.

[maxsterling]

Well, after two postponements due to weather and illness, we are finally meeting with the T today.  And since my original post, she's been put on admin leave from her job, so there is that extra layer to deal with.  The T is coming in just for us on Saturday, because BPD fiance called T and said this was an emergency.

I dread this, and feel like I am counting down the minutes.  It's a rock and a hard place.  The tension and status quo of the house right now can't continue - I will succumb.  And she warned me that we need to go to couples T badly because she fears dysregulating again this weekend.  So, it's go to T, listen to her complaints about me in a relatively safe environment, or face the risk of it blowing up at home this afternoon.  My feeling is that T may make things feel better for her temporarily, but I really need to speak some truths and set a few boundaries before I feel better about things. 

The weekend I need to have is one where she and I do something fun together and have a good time.  One where she goes out and does things on her own or with friends for part of the day.  One where I have a few hours to myself to just veg and watch football or maybe go for a bike ride.  But I am sure T will suggest we do things to work on our R, and I feel like we really can't work on our R right now until she can take care of at least some of her half of the r/s.

[formflier]

Well, after two postponements due to weather and illness, we are finally meeting with the T today.  And since my original post, she's been put on admin leave from her job, so there is that extra layer to deal with.  The T is coming in just for us on Saturday, because BPD fiance called T and said this was an emergency.

I dread this, and feel like I am counting down the minutes.  It's a rock and a hard place.  The tension and status quo of the house right now can't continue - I will succumb.  And she warned me that we need to go to couples T badly because she fears dysregulating again this weekend.  So, it's go to T, listen to her complaints about me in a relatively safe environment, or face the risk of it blowing up at home this afternoon.  My feeling is that T may make things feel better for her temporarily, but I really need to speak some truths and set a few boundaries before I feel better about things. 

The weekend I need to have is one where she and I do something fun together and have a good time.  One where she goes out and does things on her own or with friends for part of the day.  One where I have a few hours to myself to just veg and watch football or maybe go for a bike ride.  But I am sure T will suggest we do things to work on our R, and I feel like we really can't work on our R right now until she can take care of at least some of her half of the r/s.

Hang in there Max!

What is the admin leave for? 

Hopefully when it is your turn you can focus on what she needs to do to work on her side of r/s...

[maxsterling]

Well that was mostly hell, but it is over.  I felt like i was sitting in a room with a black hole, and right now thinking i should switch back to the undecided board.

[MissyM]

Sorry for that, Max!  Did the T address her behavior at all?

[formflier]

Well that was mostly hell, but it is over.  I felt like i was sitting in a room with a black hole, and right now thinking i should switch back to the undecided board.

Tough day buddy... . Hang in there!    

Can you take some time for yourself tomorrow?

When you settle down some... .tell us the story... .

[maxsterling]

Sorry, no chance to post until now... .

You know those books/pamphlets/checklists that you are supposed to tell you the signs you are being emotionally abused?  It was like that in session today, from the sarcasm all the way to the claims that I am "too sensitive".  She's still complaining that I chew too loud, that my parents are messy eaters, that I don't own any good clothes, that I don't get paid enough at my job... .she even took back the apology she gave me the other day after I told her I was hurt that she made fun of the way I was dressed.  if it wasn't for the fact of her being suspended for he job (reasons still unknown) and the empathy I have for that, I might have just called it done today.  Just completely unproductive.  I felt like I was in bizarro world, where everything is the opposite.  I sat and listened, did my best not to JADE, and when the time came for me to speak, I tired validating, and then stating that I have a completely different perspective of that event or conversation in question.  The T tried to get her to separate her feelings, from what I had to do with from what I didn't have anything to do with.  Little use, she tried to claim everything relates to me.

T did stop to ask me about what I felt about all this, and about all I said was "confused".  I tried not to explain myself too much, because when I do fiance usually cuts me off with her JADE .  Session ended with her trying to tell us to live in today, to put everything away for awhile, and just try to enjoy one another - do something fun.  She also basically told me that I need to rise above the abuse (didn't use those words, but that was the message - to not take all this personally).  Things were slightly better after the session, but then when we went to dinner, she sat in her disassociative state (that she has been in most of the past few days), claimed my shirt was wrinkled (it was) then claimed that I don't care about my appearance and just take her for granted. 

The truly sad thing is, that if I broke up with her right now after she spent an hour complaining left and right about me and how she has doubts about marrying me, she'd scream at me for "dumping" her, and probably never, ever get it.

[formflier]

Sorry, no chance to post until now... .

You know those books/pamphlets/checklists that you are supposed to tell you the signs you are being emotionally abused?  It was like that in session today, from the sarcasm all the way to the claims that I am "too sensitive".  She's still complaining that I chew too loud, that my parents are messy eaters, that I don't own any good clothes, that I don't get paid enough at my job... .she even took back the apology she gave me the other day after I told her I was hurt that she made fun of the way I was dressed.  if it wasn't for the fact of her being suspended for he job (reasons still unknown) and the empathy I have for that, I might have just called it done today.  Just completely unproductive.  I felt like I was in bizarro world, where everything is the opposite.  I sat and listened, did my best not to JADE, and when the time came for me to speak, I tired validating, and then stating that I have a completely different perspective of that event or conversation in question.  The T tried to get her to separate her feelings, from what I had to do with from what I didn't have anything to do with.  Little use, she tried to claim everything relates to me.

T did stop to ask me about what I felt about all this, and about all I said was "confused".  I tried not to explain myself too much, because when I do fiance usually cuts me off with her JADE .  Session ended with her trying to tell us to live in today, to put everything away for awhile, and just try to enjoy one another - do something fun.  She also basically told me that I need to rise above the abuse (didn't use those words, but that was the message - to not take all this personally).  Things were slightly better after the session, but then when we went to dinner, she sat in her disassociative state (that she has been in most of the past few days), claimed my shirt was wrinkled (it was) then claimed that I don't care about my appearance and just take her for granted. 

The truly sad thing is, that if I broke up with her right now after she spent an hour complaining left and right about me and how she has doubts about marrying me, she'd scream at me for "dumping" her, and probably never, ever get it.

So... .this T session... .was it her T... .an individual session that you were invited into? Or is it a MC?

My impression is that you rose to the the moment and worked as hard as you can today to follow lessons and do the right thing... .to be supportive.  I want to commend you for that... .big time.  Your dedication to the r/s and to getting her to a better place is commendable.

Some of this reminded me of places I have been before.  Hopefully the way I processed it... .might help you.

I'm a conservative Christian guy... .for us forgiveness is a big deal.  It's much... .much more than an apology.  When I read the part about an apology being taken back... .reminds me of times that I was "unforgiven" for things.  That was before I knew about BPD and "lessons... .or any of that.  Also times when i was warned if I didn't do or say certain things that I would be "unforgiven"... .basically threats.

Well... .even back then... .I knew it was wrong... .but it was sort of too ridiculous to be taken seriously.  Or at least that I took it.  Now that I have read lessons... .I somehow think I got it right... .by stumbling into it back then.

I hope you can do something similar... .to focus on not taking it personally... .to realize that it is about her and not you... .

I think the T's advice is one pathway... .that you find a way to rise above it.  And really... .for now... .I think that is your only course. 

I would like to suggest another course of action that you consider carefully for a week or two... .before considering  actually implementing.  That would be to no longer participate in the abuse.

My hope is that this direction can come from the T... .because it will not be your "fault"... you are just following the treatment plan. 

I bring up the course of action... .because I know I reached my limits several times... .and said and did things that I  regret.  This was preBPD knowledge... .so maybe now I could tough it out longer.

I have talked to various T's about BPD.  Usually a good T will become... "the hated one"... .and be the focus of a lot of negative BPD energy.  Right now it seems to me that you are the focus on that energy... .and that focus needs to either go away or shift to a T.

Last thought for now.  I sort of think she is in an extinction burst now... .or some reaction to her job... .or being engaged.  Maybe you need to ride this through... .and when it gets better... .talk about new boundary in T... .and then start. 

Because you can imagine whats going to happen the first time she makes fun of your shirt... .and you implement the boundary.

Thoughts... ?

Hang in there... .please take some time and do some stuff just for you.

 

[KateCat]

I would like to suggest another course of action that you consider carefully for a week or two... .before considering  actually implementing.  That would be to no longer participate in the abuse.

I think this is super advice.

You have been such a perfect, supportive, long-suffering partner that you actually risk achieving that worst-case paradoxical result with your mentally ill fiancée--ending up being, in her mind, the worst of them all. The one who promised her marriage, children, stability, and then snatched it all away just as she was reaching her 40th birthday. The last, greatest betrayal, in her mind.  :'(

[formflier]

You have been such a perfect, supportive, long-suffering partner that you actually risk achieving that worst-case paradoxical result with your mentally ill fiancée--ending up being, in her mind, the worst of them all. 

KateCat,

Thanks for expressing it in that way... .I was thinking along those lines... .but couldn't get it all put together.

I'll try again to talk about the principle here. 

Your fiancee is getting help... .going to T... and all that.  This is very very good.  You are light years ahead of many.

However... .there needs to be an honest assessment of  is progress being made.  Note:  I think it is... .from reading your story... .I just think it is measured in inches... instead of feet.

There also needs to be an honest assessment of how much you can take... .and if your current "tactics" are helping, hurting... .or neutral. 

Not saying you have done anything wrong... .but as Kate said... .you have been in hero... .over the top awesome dude mode for a long time... .  I wonder what turning you into a boundary enforcer would do... .or... .maybe even better.  Let it be known that she can let it all hang out in T... but nowhere else.  If that means T several times a week... .fine. 

Anyway... .Kate... .thanks again for the words... .  Max... .do something for yourself!

[KateCat]

Your fiancee is getting help... .going to T... and all that.  This is very very good.  You are light years ahead of many.

Don't you (by which I mean "she" ) have another powerful ace-in-the-hole? Hasn't she qualified already for SSDI or SSI disability benefits? Such that she's kind of got access to a whole package of survival support, apart from you?

Formflier's coaching is great! You can really do this, max. You're still a young guy, and this experience will make you stronger.

ADDED: Off topic a bit, but is there any chance her employers have recently learned that her previous work-related medical issues were mental health issues?

[123Phoebe]

Your fiancee is getting help... .going to T... and all that.  This is very very good.  You are light years ahead of many.

Don't you (by which I mean "she" ) have another powerful ace-in-the-hole? Hasn't she qualified already for SSDI or SSI disability benefits? Such that she's kind of got access to a whole package of survival support, apart from you?

Formflier's coaching is great! You can really do this, max. You're still a young guy, and this experience will make you stronger.

ADDED: Off topic a bit, but is there any chance her employers have recently learned that her previous work-related medical issues were mental health issues?

Max   I've been in a similar place as you, not the same, but similar, only as the child of a disordered parent.  My Dad walked out of his classroom one day during a psychotic break.  Got drunk in a really bad part of town and beat up.  He never saw a classroom again (after 20+yrs of teaching).  He went on permanent disability :'(  So sad, because he loved kids and was a really good teacher.  I run into students of his and they have nothing but wonderful things to say about him.  His mental illness was bigger than all of that and my Mom could not deal with it.  She divorced him.  They both survived!

There is so much more going on than only our love for them.  We cannot love them out of it.  We can support them, but to what extent?

I am not saying to give up on her.  I am saying to not give yourself up and the things you want out of life because of her disorder.  You cannot change her.  She's going to have to want and be willing to change herself.  To seek the help she needs.

 

[formflier]

   We can support them, but to what extent?

To what extent is a big question to work through over the next couple weeks... .

Closely related is a deliberate process of asking yourself if your "tactics" are correct... .

[maxsterling]

Thanks for the advice. This is by far the worst dysreguation i have seen from her so far.  Today has been worse.   More later.

[KateCat]

Oh, no. I thought things would calm down for you today.