Will Empaths always attract BPDs?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

A person with soft boundaries merges with other people's boundaries. Someone with a soft boundary is easily manipulated. I was taking care of her and she was taking care of me but no one was taking care of itself.  We sort of became one with this woman and went down a swamp of intertia and boredom... .And after I broke up I met the borderline... .I believe that borderlines have what is called spongy boundaries - now a person with spongy boundaries is like a combination of having soft and rigid boundaries. People with spongy boundaries are unsure what to let in and what to keep out. It comes from their disorganised attachment patterns. Push and pull.

Anyway it takes a borderline bulldozer not just to nudge but to break the empath's soft boundaries so some of us can eventually wake up to the fact that boundaries do exist and we have to enforce them depending on what we need. This will help us move towards flexible boundaries where the person decides what to let in and what to keep out, becomes resistant to emotional contagion and manipulation, and is difficult to exploit. Amen to that!

This is about the best info describing boundaries that I have seen. Thanks for sharing

I actually had some very rigid boundaries before I was married. When I married my W, I deliberately relaxed them. I figured, I trust this person, so why not. I woke up to no boundaries 14 years later. I feel like Rip van Winkel. It was done so slowly so as to be imperceptible

[Moselle]

A person with soft boundaries merges with other people's boundaries. Someone with a soft boundary is easily manipulated. I was taking care of her and she was taking care of me but no one was taking care of itself.  We sort of became one with this woman and went down a swamp of intertia and boredom... .And after I broke up I met the borderline... .I believe that borderlines have what is called spongy boundaries - now a person with spongy boundaries is like a combination of having soft and rigid boundaries. People with spongy boundaries are unsure what to let in and what to keep out. It comes from their disorganised attachment patterns. Push and pull.

Anyway it takes a borderline bulldozer not just to nudge but to break the empath's soft boundaries so some of us can eventually wake up to the fact that boundaries do exist and we have to enforce them depending on what we need. This will help us move towards flexible boundaries where the person decides what to let in and what to keep out, becomes resistant to emotional contagion and manipulation, and is difficult to exploit. Amen to that!

This is about the best info describing boundaries that I have seen. Thanks for sharing

I actually had some very rigid boundaries before I was married. When I married my W, I deliberately relaxed them. I figured, I trust this person, so why not. I woke up to no boundaries 14 years later. I feel like Rip van Winkel. It was done so slowly so as to be imperceptible

[Artisan]

Something about empaths for us all to understand ;

Even though we may be feeling something ... .that does not mean the interpretation of what is being felt is anywhere near accurate.

Only the feeling itself is true.

The why, how and mind-stuff contains truth and false data.

So yes ; an empath feels intense, deep, soul-caressing love with a BPD ; it is the empathic love being felt. The experience of love awakens within.

The projection that this other person could love us in these ways was ... .an ideal.

Underlying all of that feeling of love is the truth of being able to nurture and awaken that relationship dynamic within our own self.

The BPD wakes us up to the fact that love was searched for outside, trying to match ideals and structures learned in childhood and from society, religion and other people.

When we know love is not found outside, there is only one place for the empath to go ; within.

It's scary. It's also liberating and empowering.

[Moselle]

When we know love is not found outside, there is only one place for the empath to go ; within.

It's scary. It's also liberating and empowering.

OK, how do you do this? I'm not managing very well with this step.

[borderdude]

When we know love is not found outside, there is only one place for the empath to go ; within.

It's scary. It's also liberating and empowering.

OK, how do you do this? I'm not managing very well with this step.

Everything you experience is another part of yourself.

Love means , that your partner is showing you a new page of yourself. You love yourself but  project that love towards your partner, she/he becomes referenced with that part of you she/he assigned.


Therefore if you do not love yourself , you cannot give ... .etc

Everything is you ... .(not that romantic I know)

[Moselle]

When we know love is not found outside, there is only one place for the empath to go ; within.

It's scary. It's also liberating and empowering.

So we shouldn't focus on loving someone else, we should love ourselves? And then when we have enough love, it fills our need. Then if and only if, there's some left over for our partner, we can invest it in them?

To quote a famous author   "Love thy neighbour as thyself". This implies your point exactly.

Aha!

[Artisan]

The phrase that a person must love themself in order to love another is, in my opinion, total junk. One of the most useless concepts ever communicated.

What I have noticed is that in order to love somebody else, and in that love give my best, self-nurturing is essential.

That's a hard thing to do for empathic types.

[borderdude]

The phrase that a person must love themself in order to love another is, in my opinion, total junk. One of the most useless concepts ever communicated.

What I have noticed is that in order to love somebody else, and in that love give my best, self-nurturing is essential.

That's a hard thing to do for empathic types.

How can you give something you don't have?

[hergestridge]

The phrase that a person must love themself in order to love another is, in my opinion, total junk. One of the most useless concepts ever communicated.

I think it's more interesting if it's true or not. Can a description of reality be pushed aside as "useless"?

I think there's something to it.

[borderdude]

I'm a bit confused by the use of the term "empathy" here.


The kind of "empathy" we nons provide is saying "I know how you feel, but your feelings are wrong and I will stay with you no matter what, because I know that somewhere deep inside you are another, better person.".

Personally, I used to think of that as empathy, but now I think I was wrong. I was wrong in ignoring her feelings and thinking she was someone she was not.

That is really a strong statement of love , it starts with acknowledge the person just like he/she is in the moment , must be brave to see the bad parts too.

[Moselle]

I think I've spent my married life giving what I don't have. Every time I felt some love, I put it into the black hole of my wife's neediness, pretending I was doing something noble.

But I was back on empty, and not much good love wise to anyone, including my children.

I'm noticing many things in BPD relationships are counterintuitive, and I believe this is one of them. Let them learn to love themselves, instead of us trying to love for them first and then having the scraps for ourselves.

I'm not saying go Narcissistic on them, but balance the equation a bit. This makes sense to me.

[Caredverymuch]

I think I've spent my married life giving what I don't have. Every time I felt some love, I put it into the black hole of my wife's neediness, pretending I was doing something noble.

But I was back on empty, and not much good love wise to anyone, including my children.

I'm noticing many things in BPD relationships are counterintuitive, and I believe this is one of them. Let them learn to love themselves, instead of us trying to love for them first and then having the scraps for ourselves.

I'm not saying go Narcissistic on them, but balance the equation a bit. This makes sense to me.

Exactly. And where so many of us empath went far off course.

Is this perhaps why they tend to do " better" if you will with NPD partners?

[Moselle]

Is this perhaps why they tend to do " better" if you will with NPD partners?

Do they really? I can be Narcissistic if it helps

[hergestridge]

I'm not saying go Narcissistic on them, but balance the equation a bit. This makes sense to me.

That would would make sense in a normal relationship, but how does a pwBPD handle transition?

I made it clear to my wife that her feelings had ruled my life a bit too much, that it was not necesarily her fault, but it had to change because it wasn't exactly healthy.

She agreed, but never forgave me because somewhere deep inside she thought I loved her less because I wasn't her little puppet any more. It came up time and time again in our endless arguments.

[goldylamont]

I think I've spent my married life giving what I don't have. Every time I felt some love, I put it into the black hole of my wife's neediness, pretending I was doing something noble.

But I was back on empty, and not much good love wise to anyone, including my children.

I'm noticing many things in BPD relationships are counterintuitive, and I believe this is one of them. Let them learn to love themselves, instead of us trying to love for them first and then having the scraps for ourselves.

I'm not saying go Narcissistic on them, but balance the equation a bit. This makes sense to me.

Exactly. And where so many of us empath went far off course.

Is this perhaps why they tend to do " better" if you will with NPD partners?

i think the attraction to an NPD partner would be the same as why anyone could be attracted to this type of personality--the N has a well crafted and highly rigid sense of self. it's constructed to hide their weaknesses and may not hold true, but still an N-type person appears to know who they are, what they like, what they want to do and f-u attitude if you're not on the same page. this appearance of embodying strong character is one of the foundations of attractiveness to people in general, not just pwBPD. but a pwBPD *needs* to attach to something solid as they themselves don't have a solid core, so they may perhaps be more susceptible to being seduced by an N-type because of their thirst to merge with the other (lack of boundaries).

and yes, i do think it would bode well for an "empath" (i'm only using the term as it's referred in this thread) to take on more narcissistic traits to balance out the people-pleasing aspect, conflict avoiding side. we all need a bit of narcissism to stay healthy without it becoming a full on PD.

[goldylamont]

The phrase that a person must love themself in order to love another is, in my opinion, total junk. One of the most useless concepts ever communicated.

you know i can kind of understand where you are coming from here. i disagree but i feel like cliche's can sometimes become so, well, cliche that it starts to lose it's meaning. Artisan, try reversing the roles and see if the statement makes more sense. What i mean is, in my case i do think i have a lot of genuine self-love and respect. And although i definitely had boundaries pushed and broken during my r/s i think i held onto most of my self respect. So, in my case it wasn't that i needed to love myself more to fix the situation--regardless of whatever self-love or boundaries i had or could have had, the r/s was doomed from the start because my SO didn't love *herself*.

Perhaps it may make more sense in this context--do you think your r/s with your ex would have been more positive if at her core she loved herself? wasn't jealous all the time because of her low self esteem... .didn't think you would abandon her because she was unloveable... .didn't have the desperate need to be in someone/anyone's arms because she couldn't stand to be alone by herself?

i wrote a song about my ex years before we ever became an item... .how true it was: "if you don't love yourself, how can i love you more? men work for her affections, but, she don't think she's worth the chore."

What I have noticed is that in order to love somebody else, and in that love give my best, self-nurturing is essential.

That's a hard thing to do for empathic types.

i have a different view of what empathic types are, which is decoupled from the tendency some people have to put others' feelings and needs above their own << i think better descriptions for this behavior is perhaps codependence or low self-esteem. i don't think empathic types are inherently codependent or put the needs of others above their own. many empathic people i know have strong boundaries and are able to self-sacrifice by their own volition because they are aware of themselves. they can sustain openness and can give freely because they know how to protect themselves. warriors with heart. they know how and when to open a can of ass-whoop   for a good cause of for someone in need

[Loveofhislife]

i have a different view of what empathic types are, which is decoupled from the tendency some people have to put others' feelings and needs above their own << i think better descriptions for this behavior is perhaps codependence or low self-esteem. i don't think empathic types are inherently codependent or put the needs of others above their own. many empathic people i know have strong boundaries and are able to self-sacrifice by their own volition because they are aware of themselves. they can sustain openness and can give freely because they know how to protect themselves. warriors with heart. they know how and when to open a can of ass-whoop   for a good cause of for someone in need

My new favorite quote. I am a warrior of the heart. He fell in love with my heart and my child but abhors the warrior. And I need to develop my can of whoop-ass 

[Moselle]

I think better descriptions for this behavior is perhaps codependence or low self-esteem. i don't think empathic types are inherently codependent or put the needs of others above their own. many empathic people i know have strong boundaries and are able to self-sacrifice by their own volition because they are aware of themselves. they can sustain openness and can give freely because they know how to protect themselves. warriors with heart. they know how and when to open a can of ass-whoop   for a good cause of for someone in need

Ass-whoop aside , my W responds much better when I turn on the Narcissist. I don't know if it's because she respects that, or understands the language. She kicks up a token fuss, when I do it, but the results are better, she calms down quicker.

The co-dependence and low self esteem? I agree

[fred6]

an N-type person appears to know who they are, what they like, what they want to do and f-u attitude if you're not on the same page. this appearance of embodying strong character is one of the foundations of attractiveness to people in general, not just pwBPD.

Can a pwBPD have N traits. My ex always appeared to know who she was, what she liked, and what she wanted to do and if me or anyone else wasn't on the same page, she had the FU attitude? The funny thing was that she changed who she was consistently, she changed what she liked, and she never did many of the things that she claimed she liked doing. I mean she always liked(or seemed obsessed)certain things, like tattoos and piercings, things I care nothing about. But she seemed to get interested in things(sewing, gardening) according to what other people liked and then never followed up on them or did them.

[Loveofhislife]

Fred, I'm certain my exbfBPD had N characteristics; I have written here before that he was very high functioning and strategic; thus he had SOME ability to control his emotions. The fact that he told me weeks before that he was stressed about finances, so he was going to go "dark" tells me he had more capacity than a lot of the pwBPD I read about on these threads.

[tim_tom]

what exactly is an empath?

Up above someone said people pleaser and conflict avoider... Sounds like me

[goldylamont]

Ass-whoop aside , my W responds much better when I turn on the Narcissist. I don't know if it's because she respects that, or understands the language. She kicks up a token fuss, when I do it, but the results are better, she calms down quicker.

i can relate to this. and probably a bit of narcissism to counteract our other behaviors can in a way protect us... .we feel a little more in control and less used. but for me i think this was just a quick-fix, unsustainable. for example, from what i can gather (although i didn't put this together when i was with her) my ex will sometimes test her SO's by being flirty with other men or distant in public situations. i think she may have tried this stuff out on me maybe once or twice, but that was it. when she was with the guy after me, she was telling me about how she was just being nice and talking to someone while they were out at a bar and that replacement bf got jealous for no reason and argumentative. she lists this as the reason for breaking up with him--conveniently she ends up sleeping with the other guy she claims she was not flirting with at the time... .go figure. but i remember maybe one time she tried this on me early in the r/s, started ignoring me for no reason and chatting it up with some random guy. it wasn't overt she wasn't coming onto him, but still it felt a little disrespectful. well, i didn't so much as mention anything to her about it. in fact we never had an argument about it at all. because by the time she turned around from playing her game i'd left her alone and she would find me with a new group of people chatting it up with other cute women. touche BPD, touche. she learned quickly that if she wanted to play the jealousy game with me that ultimately she'd have to take a bit of her own medicine, because i wasn't clinging or complaining. so her games stopped because i called her bluff without ever saying a word.

but, thing is, although i'm capable of holding my own like this... .it's just not 'me'. i can do it, but i don't like doing it. it's not my truth or my desire. so being narcissistic in this way did keep her in her place, but it was neither sustainable nor enjoyable for me. and it was indicative of deeper issues.

[Caredverymuch]

an N-type person appears to know who they are, what they like, what they want to do and f-u attitude if you're not on the same page. this appearance of embodying strong character is one of the foundations of attractiveness to people in general, not just pwBPD.

Can a pwBPD have N traits. My ex always appeared to know who she was, what she liked, and what she wanted to do and if me or anyone else wasn't on the same page, she had the FU attitude? The funny thing was that she changed who she was consistently, she changed what she liked, and she never did many of the things that she claimed she liked doing. I mean she always liked(or seemed obsessed)certain things, like tattoos and piercings, things I care nothing about. But she seemed to get interested in things(sewing, gardening) according to what other people liked and then never followed up on them or did them.

Yes, Fred6 they most certainly can. My ex was a waif pBPD. Despite that, he had N traits for sure. Which really shocked me.  It's all  part of  the cluster B spectrum.

[fred6]

started ignoring me for no reason and chatting it up with some random guy. it wasn't overt she wasn't coming onto him, but still it felt a little disrespectful. well, i didn't so much as mention anything to her about it. in fact we never had an argument about it at all.

Mine always did this to me. Not really flirting with people. She knows a lot of people and when she would see someone she knew, she would just stand there talking to them, just leaving me standing there like a schmuck. She didn't introduce me or really even acknowledge me. So embarrassing and disrespectful. She would sometimes stand there and talk to them for 20-30 minutes. After a few minutes I would just start wondering around the immediate vicinity looking at merchandise or playing on my phone. So disrespectful... .

[freedom33]

but i remember maybe one time she tried this on me early in the r/s, started ignoring me for no reason and chatting it up with some random guy. it wasn't overt she wasn't coming onto him, but still it felt a little disrespectful. well, i didn't so much as mention anything to her about it. in fact we never had an argument about it at all. because by the time she turned around from playing her game i'd left her alone and she would find me with a new group of people chatting it up with other cute women. touche BPD, touche. she learned quickly that if she wanted to play the jealousy game with me that ultimately she'd have to take a bit of her own medicine, because i wasn't clinging or complaining. so her games stopped because i called her bluff without ever saying a word.

Nice one Goldy. She pulled similar tricks on me on a few times. This is when I realised that she doesn't really care and that it is all a game for her. Most of the time I could control myself and play it well, but not all the times. I remember an incident at the start that I just had to hold her responsible for her actions. I didn't know BPD and in a way this incident showed me who she really was.

We were at one of her friend's event. I didn't know anyone and she was distant and ignoring me. I was ok with it. Suddenly she wanted to chat to this random dude - a friend of a friend that she didn't even knew. So we got into the pub just for her to chat to this guy. Anyway she started flirting with him and the guy was trying to figure out if we were together. Asked once in an indirect way 'so what's up with the two of you? are you in a band (music) together?' she dodged the question. When asked a second time after a few mins directly  'so are you guys together?' she told the guy 'we just met'. I just couldn't believe my ears... .I held me cool, then I connected with the guy and after a few mins I told him that I want to go out for a smoke and if he wanted to follow so we left her in the pub alone. She was lost by herself so she called her dad while I had a good chat with the guy. He was going through a rough divorce and I recommended a good therapist and called me a few times after that.

At any rate afterwards - SHE WAS ANGRY with me for leaving her alone in the pub - I did confront her. I am like 'why did you say to him that we just met?' She denied, gaslighted, used every tactic in the book.  If I 'd known at the time she was who she was I wouldn't have confronted her. But I wouldn't have played her game either. I am good looking guy and can be charming and funny with people so I can go and chat to others and do some damage by playing this game but I just don't see the point of playing games like this. That's not the point of being in a rs with someone. That beats the purpose.

If anyone pulls sht like that again to me, I plan to simply keep my cool, be respectful and then walk away. The person is showing you who they are right there, no point complaining or playing games (unless you want to lose in the end... .). Walk away. A little bonus - I found out a couple of months ago that after that incident she started chatting to this guy in facebook complaining about me and how crazy and jealous and paranoid I was and portraying herself as the victim and saying things like 'relationships are tough aren't they Guy X?'. He was going through divorce and she was throwing her hooks in him.

Funilly enough as I am typing this I remembered something important - I have this internal voice, you know the good angel... ., whispering stuff once every few years or something - just on important occasions. After that argument this internal voice said 'now is the time to end it'. I didn't follow it. I would have been out in month 3-4 just before the hater phase relatively unscathed.

[fred6]

Funilly enough as I am typing this I remembered something important - I have this internal voice, you know the good angel... ., whispering stuff once every few years or something - just on important occasions. After that argument this internal voice said 'now is the time to end it'. I didn't follow it. I would have been out in month 3-4 just before the hater phase relatively unscathed.

That's what happened to me. Back in late February or early March she seemed to be kind of distant and kept withhold sex and intimacy. After about 2 weeks of this, I had a talk with her after she told me yet again, "not tonight" rather coldly. While laying in the bed with her, I asked her if she was mad at me or if I had done something to cause her to withdraw from me. She said no. I told her that "it feels like you don't want me here or to be in this relationship anymore". She then proceeded to reroute the conversation to trivial things that I was not doing. After about 30 minute of this round and round discussion.  I told her that all I wanted was for her to show me some love and attention sometimes and be proud of me. By this time I was getting a little emotional and my eyes were tearing up because she was so emotionless about my feelings. She said nothing, got up and proceeded to go to her 6 yo daughters room and slept in her daughters child sized bed with her. I was so upset by her just leaving like that and saying nothing. That night, I didn't sleep at all and had all but decided to end the relationship while thinking about it all night.

Just so happens that I had the next day off work and was just kind of laying in bed. She came in and got ready for work. Right before she left for work, she came and sat on the bed next to me, put her hand on my shoulder and said, "I do love you and want you here with me, and I do want to be with you." I didn't say anything, but it did make me feel better about things. I re thought everything that day and decided that since she told me that, that I would stay with her and stick it out through thick and thin.  Even though she has never initiated sex with me, the next night she started spooning with me, saying, "keep me warm". So I finally got some sex and thought that she was coming around to getting closer to me. That is the closest that she ever came to initiating sex. At that point, I decided to buy her an engagement ring in the summer, even though she has always told me that she would never in her life get married, but she would be in a very long term committed relationship. And I knew that she might turn down my proposal, but she was going to get to keep the ring anyhow as my sign of commitment to her.

Now, all within 2 months from telling me this, she quit her job, quit Zoloft cold turkey, split black all of her long time friends from work, kicked her son out, cheated on me, lied to me about it for a month, broke up with me, told me to find a home, treated me like dogsh!t, rubbed her new man in my face while I was waiting for an apartment, and painted her son white again and took him back in along with homeless friend his homeless friend. She knew nothing about the ring or proposal, no one did. So I know that didn't have anything to do with it.

Hell, I wish she just would have ended it when I had that conversation with her back in early March. I would be 6 more months removed. And I also would have about $3000-4000 more in the bank, due to her being unemployed for 5 months and me taking her on a 3 day prepaid weekend to New Orleans the weekend after she told me she was unhappy. Which by the way was ruined by all of this and she never even thanked me for. I had the ring picked out, but I hadn't bought it yet.


So yes, I can relate to having a gut instinct to leave. Looking back, I probably should have!

[tim_tom]

So yes, I can relate to having a gut instinct to leave. Looking back, I probably should have!

Feel the same. Mine started pinging like 10 months ago, would've saved me a lot of money and heartbreak. BUT, how do you know if your gut is right at the time? When you are with the right girl, your gut will never ever respond like that?

[fred6]

So yes, I can relate to having a gut instinct to leave. Looking back, I probably should have!

Feel the same. Mine started pinging like 10 months ago, would've saved me a lot of money and heartbreak. BUT, how do you know if your gut is right at the time? When you are with the right girl, your gut will never ever respond like that?

Even though I say that I gave my exBPD all of my trust, loyalty, and honesty. In reality I gave all of the trust that I could give to her. Since all of this has happened, I have realized that I am codependent and have an anxious preoccupied attachment style. And while I have never been jealous(until I found out she was porking new supply), let her go out and do her own thing, and spent time away from her. Knowing that I have an anxious-preoccupied attachment style, I know that I'm preoccupied with my relationships and always evaluating the status of the relationship and my so's feelings toward me. Like codepedance, you tend to focus on doing whatever you can to make it work, due to your own insecurities, whatever they may be. I'm not sure that there is anything that I can do about being an anxious-preoccupied. It might just be "who I am". Damn, that "who I am" thing sounds like what my exBPD always told me when I talked to her about her treatment of me, ... .

[goldylamont]

but i remember maybe one time she tried this on me early in the r/s, started ignoring me for no reason and chatting it up with some random guy. it wasn't overt she wasn't coming onto him, but still it felt a little disrespectful. well, i didn't so much as mention anything to her about it. in fact we never had an argument about it at all. because by the time she turned around from playing her game i'd left her alone and she would find me with a new group of people chatting it up with other cute women. touche BPD, touche. she learned quickly that if she wanted to play the jealousy game with me that ultimately she'd have to take a bit of her own medicine, because i wasn't clinging or complaining. so her games stopped because i called her bluff without ever saying a word.

Nice one Goldy. She pulled similar tricks on me on a few times. This is when I realised that she doesn't really care and that it is all a game for her. Most of the time I could control myself and play it well, but not all the times. I remember an incident at the start that I just had to hold her responsible for her actions. I didn't know BPD and in a way this incident showed me who she really was.

We were at one of her friend's event. I didn't know anyone and she was distant and ignoring me. I was ok with it. Suddenly she wanted to chat to this random dude - a friend of a friend that she didn't even knew. So we got into the pub just for her to chat to this guy. Anyway she started flirting with him and the guy was trying to figure out if we were together. Asked once in an indirect way 'so what's up with the two of you? are you in a band (music) together?' she dodged the question. When asked a second time after a few mins directly  'so are you guys together?' she told the guy 'we just met'. I just couldn't believe my ears... .I held me cool, then I connected with the guy and after a few mins I told him that I want to go out for a smoke and if he wanted to follow so we left her in the pub alone. She was lost by herself so she called her dad while I had a good chat with the guy. He was going through a rough divorce and I recommended a good therapist and called me a few times after that.

At any rate afterwards - SHE WAS ANGRY with me for leaving her alone in the pub - I did confront her. I am like 'why did you say to him that we just met?' She denied, gaslighted, used every tactic in the book.  If I 'd known at the time she was who she was I wouldn't have confronted her. But I wouldn't have played her game either. I am good looking guy and can be charming and funny with people so I can go and chat to others and do some damage by playing this game but I just don't see the point of playing games like this. That's not the point of being in a rs with someone. That beats the purpose.

If anyone pulls sht like that again to me, I plan to simply keep my cool, be respectful and then walk away. The person is showing you who they are right there, no point complaining or playing games (unless you want to lose in the end... .). Walk away. A little bonus - I found out a couple of months ago that after that incident she started chatting to this guy in facebook complaining about me and how crazy and jealous and paranoid I was and portraying herself as the victim and saying things like 'relationships are tough aren't they Guy X?'. He was going through divorce and she was throwing her hooks in him.

Funilly enough as I am typing this I remembered something important - I have this internal voice, you know the good angel... ., whispering stuff once every few years or something - just on important occasions. After that argument this internal voice said 'now is the time to end it'. I didn't follow it. I would have been out in month 3-4 just before the hater phase relatively unscathed.

freedom33 everything in this post i can relate to. not just your ex's behavior but i also relate with how you dealt with the situation, which i think was stellar.

what really hit me though is your mentioning of the internal voice. for me this is very real. i now find myself voicing things out sometimes before i am consciously aware of the thoughts that brought it. i think these are gifts. and i think we need to listen to them.

i'm a bit tired now so won't go into detail, but i had almost the exact same inner voice tell me when to end the r/s. i didn't plan to break up with her at all. we were talking on the phone, i hadn't seen her for a few weeks, she was argumentative, and exactly like you said there was just this voice, this force, that said "now is the time to end it". i was calm, we weren't yelling at each other. i just told her i was done. i think it was the best decision in my life. it's odd it was very calm and hard to put my finger on, but it was there. i've talked about it a few times here already. another time was after we broke up. and during this phase i was still ruminating a lot cycling between fantasies of missing her or fantasies of hating her. well, i was off in lala land on one of these 'good' fantasies but didn't realize it. i was stooping down under my stairwell to get a vacuum cleaner, so i grabbed it and when i was pulling it out i stood up too soon and WHACK i hit my head on the stairwell. and in this instant, that voice said "she is not good". that was it. but i understood. she was not the good person i was daydreaming about. this really truly helped me. we have to always listen to our intuitions they are a gift.

[borderdude]

I Am empatic , I learned this in my childhood, to read my mother, so I could avoid abuse.

I am not a people pleaser, I set oundaries, I might also use my empatic skills to hurt people if they ask for it. It is all about reading energy. You might feeling with them , but that is something else.