Projective identification

[freedom33]

I have been reading about projective identification. Projective identification is the process where parts of pwBPD are being forced into the other person. E.g. pwBPD is very angry or jealous but can't hold it it so s/he i forcing it to another (the container) by trying to make them angry or jealous instead. They engage in a sort of role reversal activity. I remember that with my ex it was either I 'd be ok and she would be be unhappy or the opposite. It was never a win/win.

Wikipedia says:

Projective identification represents a step beyond projection. In R.D. Laing's words, “The one person does not use the other merely as a hook to hang projections on. He strives to find in the other, or to induce the other to become, the very embodiment of projection”. Feelings which can not be consciously accessed are defensively projected into another person in order to evoke the thoughts or feelings projected.

So for example pwBPD, unable to face their own violent sadistic side, projects it onto another, and regularly feels compelled to relentlessly attack, with no apparent concern for how horrible this is for everyone. On the other hand they can also project pure, angelic, idealized images onto other people and then worship and adore them until some real or imagined flaw cues the switch to hatred and attack.

Have you ever wondered in the relationship “who is thinking what?” and “where are the boundaries?" Did you feel possessed? At the start I was completely possessed by my ex. I think this signifies weak boundaries for me at least at the time (I met her while I was in a very vulnerable position). What are your experiences with this?

[Harri]

Hi Freedom!  Projective identification is fascinating isn't it?  I agree that when we get caught up in it, it is because there is a problem with boundaries: not knowing where we end in relation to others.  Usually we talk about boundaries to keep others out or from invading our space and to protect our core values, but it is more the internal boundaries that concern me. 

As an adult child of a sever uBPD mother, this has been a very big struggle and that is where I experienced projective identification.  It carried over into my relationship with my ex (and even in some other areas) and has caused some issues, but it was greatest with my mother.  It is my theory that some people who are considered empaths who have difficulty managing their 'connection' are actually experiencing poor internal boundaries, though I have absolutely no data to support that.  It is just my opinion. 

[hurting300]

Could someone explain this a little further please...

[maternal]

My therapist and I spoke about this.  I could definitely see / feel it with my ex.

To put it very, very, very simply, the pwBPD needs you to feel how they feel.  It's not just "This is how I feel and I'm going to project this via words onto you," it's "I want you to feel about yourself the way that I feel about myself, so I'm going to say or do whatever I have to in order to make you feel about yourself the way that I do about me."  It goes beyond simple projection in that it kind of blurs the line between one and two. 

     

[ajr5679]

my ex would do this all the time. i really thought i was crazy. this is how she got me to believe anything and do anything she wanted me to do. i thought everything was my fault.

[maternal]

my ex would do this all the time. i really thought i was crazy. this is how she got me to believe anything and do anything she wanted me to do. i thought everything was my fault.

Yes. This. 

This is also the most difficult part of things to explain to someone else that hasn't been through it.  Almost all of my friends are so surprised that I got myself into and stayed in that relationship, particularly when they found out how really bad it was for me.  If I had a nickel for how many times I've heard "but you were always the one that was so strong and independent... ." since I've been out, I'd have at least two dollars by now.  No one who hasn't experienced this simply can't understand it.

[freedom33]

Ok - Here is an example. At the beginning of our rs, my ex would get angry out of nowhere about something minor that I wouldn't even notice. She 'd be fearful of expressing her rage or anger as a first option. She would pretend nothing happened but because that anger was too much to hold she would try and get me angry instead e.g. by baiting me so I would be expressing her anger. She would be boiling under the surface and passing her anger on to me. I don't know if I am saying this clearly enough. I think one must have experienced it to know it. After a while when I was ok she was not (i.e. not assuming her problems) or when I was not ok she was fine and dandy.

After a few months I learned. She 'd have a sardonic, evil smile and I knew that she was up for retaliation for some imaginary wrongdoing of mine. Very sadistic and vindictive indeed. I 'd prepare myself, not react or otherwise remove myself from the situation. Since I was not reliefing her from her intense feeling by carrying them for her, she would then rage or break down in tears.

[Loveofhislife]

This is also the most difficult part of things to explain to someone else that hasn't been through it.  Almost all of my friends are so surprised that I got myself into and stayed in that relationship, particularly when they found out how really bad it was for me.  If I had a nickel for how many times I've heard "but you were always the one that was so strong and independent... ." since I've been out, I'd have at least two dollars by now.  No one who hasn't experienced this simply can't understand it.

Yes--friends, family, colleagues --and most importantly my 3 adult children are staggered that "Miss Independent" (me) allowed and enabled this r/s for over a year. I sometimes believe he left me because I had a strong sense of self that he couldn't project his identity into, but I believe for certain that he did this significantly to his ex wife of 17 years. She was as bonkers as he by the time she finally divorced him. Now I understand why and feel soo bad for her (that is my empathic side). Do you think this (now 2 month) silent treatment could have been a last ditch effort to whip me into an object of his own making--make me feel the pain and emptiness of utter abandonment: his greatest fear? Because this ST has been more painful for me than the death of a loved one :-(

[Blimblam]

I've been looking this stuff up a bit.  What they have to say is quite interesting.  A lot if it talks about activating the objects reptilian brain and affecting them on a unconcious level through body language primarily.

Also read that the separation between "you and I" becoming blurred.  This sounds a lot to me like the soulmate bond we refer to on here often.

Most of the stuff I read about it online is aimed at therapists as a sort of warning to arm against personality disordered patients.  It almost implies once too close a bond is made it is almost impossible to not identify with the projections.

It also sort of implies that we are like a compost pile for the projector they dump their waist and we processs it for them and feed it back to them in bite sized chunks.

They they describe it seems like a psychic bond and advanced form of brainwashing mind control.

[Waifed]

I've been looking this stuff up a bit.  What they have to say is quite interesting.  A lot if it talks about activating the objects reptilian brain and affecting them on a unconcious level through body language primarily.

Also read that the separation between "you and I" becoming blurred.  This sounds a lot to me like the soulmate bond we refer to on here often.

Most of the stuff I read about it online is aimed at therapists as a sort of warning to arm against personality disordered patients.  It almost implies once too close a bond is made it is almost impossible to not identify with the projections.

It also sort of implies that we are like a compost pile for the projector they dump their waist and we processs it for them and feed it back to them in bite sized chunks.

They they describe it seems like a psychic bond and advanced form of brainwashing mind control.

Does this mean they feel the way we felt?  If she always feels like I felt at the end of the relationship I truly pity her. I would hate to think I felt that way all the time.

[tim_tom]

I've been looking this stuff up a bit.  What they have to say is quite interesting.  A lot if it talks about activating the objects reptilian brain and affecting them on a unconcious level through body language primarily.

Also read that the separation between "you and I" becoming blurred.  This sounds a lot to me like the soulmate bond we refer to on here often.

Most of the stuff I read about it online is aimed at therapists as a sort of warning to arm against personality disordered patients.  It almost implies once too close a bond is made it is almost impossible to not identify with the projections.

It also sort of implies that we are like a compost pile for the projector they dump their waist and we processs it for them and feed it back to them in bite sized chunks.

They they describe it seems like a psychic bond and advanced form of brainwashing mind control.

... this stuff is wild. Is this intentional on their part or just a byproduct of their issues

[Blimblam]

I've been looking this stuff up a bit.  What they have to say is quite interesting.  A lot if it talks about activating the objects reptilian brain and affecting them on a unconcious level through body language primarily.

Also read that the separation between "you and I" becoming blurred.  This sounds a lot to me like the soulmate bond we refer to on here often.

Most of the stuff I read about it online is aimed at therapists as a sort of warning to arm against personality disordered patients.  It almost implies once too close a bond is made it is almost impossible to not identify with the projections.

It also sort of implies that we are like a compost pile for the projector they dump their waist and we processs it for them and feed it back to them in bite sized chunks.

They they describe it seems like a psychic bond and advanced form of brainwashing mind control.

... this stuff is wild. Is this intentional on their part or just a byproduct of their issues

It is stressed that in many ways their denial sinse deep they are unconcious of the process. I guess as confusing it is for us it's even more confusing for them.

[freedom33]

It also sort of implies that we are like a compost pile for the projector they dump their waist and we processs it for them and feed it back to them in bite sized chunks.

Spot on. Like a mother and an infant. The infant can't process stuff. It has a symbiotic relationship with the mother and relies on the mother to do the processing for him/her. When the mother responds and is in tune with the infant's communications then the infant is acknowledged, it's ego is built and it's needs are met. If the mother is not there, not in tune and no mirroring takes place, the infant does not exist, it's needs are not met.

That's what happened to pwBPD. They are looking for an emotionally corrective experience. They are recreating their developmental arrest and patterns from those early days unconsciously in their current relationships with the aim to find the cure for themselves and master reality.

[Blimblam]

I've been looking this stuff up a bit.  What they have to say is quite interesting.  A lot if it talks about activating the objects reptilian brain and affecting them on a unconcious level through body language primarily.

Also read that the separation between "you and I" becoming blurred.  This sounds a lot to me like the soulmate bond we refer to on here often.

Most of the stuff I read about it online is aimed at therapists as a sort of warning to arm against personality disordered patients.  It almost implies once too close a bond is made it is almost impossible to not identify with the projections.

It also sort of implies that we are like a compost pile for the projector they dump their waist and we processs it for them and feed it back to them in bite sized chunks.

They they describe it seems like a psychic bond and advanced form of brainwashing mind control.

Does this mean they feel the way we felt?  If she always feels like I felt at the end of the relationship I truly pity her. I would hate to think I felt that way all the time.

That's how she feels deep down inside but as you have noticed she has developed a system to avoid feeling that finding enablers substance abuse etc. it's always lurking under the surface nagging at her.  That's why he always has a bad guy to project it onto and find an enabler to connect with and start over. 

In Norse mythology the god Loki who is essentially lucifer. Is bound by entrails while a serpant drips venom into his eyes and his wife holds a bowl to prevent the venom from dripping  into his eyes and when the bowl fills she empties it out and durring this time the venom drips into his eyes burning them untill she gets back into place to refill the bowl.

Loki is bound because he killed baldr the son of the mother goddess. Baldr is sent to the underworld where the goddes of the underworld named hel attempts to bring baldr back to life. Baldr is the son of light. The light being.

[freedom33]

In Norse mythology the god Loki who is essentially lucifer. Is bound by entrails while a serpant drips venom into his eyes and his wife holds a bowl to prevent the venom from dripping  into his eyes and when the bowl fills she empties it out and durring this time the venom drips into his eyes burning them untill she gets back into place to refill the bowl.

Loki is bound because he killed baldr the son of the mother goddess. Baldr is sent to the underworld where the goddes of the underworld named hel attempts to bring baldr back to life. Baldr is the son of light. The light being.

Very similar to the myth of Osiris and Set and Isis and Nepthys.

[Blimblam]

In Norse mythology the god Loki who is essentially lucifer. Is bound by entrails while a serpant drips venom into his eyes and his wife holds a bowl to prevent the venom from dripping  into his eyes and when the bowl fills she empties it out and durring this time the venom drips into his eyes burning them untill she gets back into place to refill the bowl.

Loki is bound because he killed baldr the son of the mother goddess. Baldr is sent to the underworld where the goddes of the underworld named hel attempts to bring baldr back to life. Baldr is the son of light. The light being.

Very similar to the myth of Osiris and Set and Isis and Nepthys.

Indeed.  The serpant that drips the venom into lokis eyes is the serpant that swallows it's tail surrounding the earth.  Implying Loki is on the earthly plane.  Loki the shape shifter. 

All these myths have a borderline woman type character on the earthly plane. A woman looking for the lost parts to make her whole and or bound to evil spirits. These same myths were used to control the population.  The same with Persephone deter of Greece.  These myths are at the core of the esoteric portion of the mystery schools of these ancient religions also. The myths all fall into line with the jungian perspective on the alchemical process as well.

[freedom33]

'A woman looking for the lost parts to make her whole and or bound to evil spirits.'

Can you explain?

Isis was looking for Osiris part's to make him whole and resurrect him not her. Also Isis and Nepthys were helpful figures in the myth of Osiris.

The way I read the myth is that the restoration and wholeness of man (Osiris) comes from confronting his shadow (Set). In that process he becomes fragmented, cut to pieces, 14 to be precise. Here is in my mind where the borderline in actual life may come to play. She acts as a mirror to encounter one's own shadow. After death then the man is restored back to life by the positive, good feminine i.e. Isis, sister and wife of Osiris (which in one way means that this woman is within a man - his Anima as Jung calls it). She is the one who collects his pieces and brings him back to life and after that has a son with him Horus. New life!

[Rifka]

Ok - Here is an example. At the beginning of our rs, my ex would get angry out of nowhere about something minor that I wouldn't even notice. She 'd be fearful of expressing her rage or anger as a first option. She would pretend nothing happened but because that anger was too much to hold she would try and get me angry instead e.g. by baiting me so I would be expressing her anger. She would be boiling under the surface and passing her anger on to me. I don't know if I am saying this clearly enough. I think one must have experienced it to know it. After a while when I was ok she was not (i.e. not assuming her problems) or when I was not ok she was fine and dandy.

After a few months I learned. She 'd have a sardonic, evil smile and I knew that she was up for retaliation for some imaginary wrongdoing of mine. Very sadistic and vindictive indeed. I 'd prepare myself, not react or otherwise remove myself from the situation. Since I was not reliefing her from her intense feeling by carrying them for her, she would then rage or break down in tears.

Wow that is exactly how he was, tears and all!

This is so interesting!

I would always ask him at these times, why was he behaving like this when nothing was wrong and everything was peaceful for us, but it was peaceful for me, not us!

It was like somebody needed to always be miserable or he was not good! He told me that he is just a miserable person and I have to accept it! NO NOT REALLY!

It was insane! I called him on it so many times, the sabotaging things when nothing was wrong. He would always start a problem for no reason. I constantly ask him why with no proper answer, just a look and an evil smile and him raging for nothing!

I don't miss that craziness at all!

I toast to peace! It's wonderful!

Rifka

[sweetheart]

Hello all, 

This is a really excellent thread. For me PI really is at the heart of the difficulties the non partner experiences in relation to the emotional dysfunction. I can really relate to something I read on another post that said the less awareness the non partner has of this the deeper the wounds on leaving the relationship. Hence the need for a really good therapist 

I know I am constantly checking out if what I am feeling is mine or his, it took me a while to get to this point though as my relationship was/is just so crazy making, and despite being aware of PI, I thought for ages that all of how bad I felt must be mine. It wasn't!

I keep checking out the leaving board of late which is a first for me, funny how two months of perfect calm, then four days of split black can acutely highlight the futility of a marriage with dBPDh in a way that has not been clear before now   

[tim_tom]

Hello all, 

This is a really excellent thread. For me PI really is at the heart of the difficulties the non partner experiences in relation to the emotional dysfunction. I can really relate to something I read on another post that said the less awareness the non partner has of this the deeper the wounds on leaving the relationship. Hence the need for a really good therapist 

I know I am constantly checking out if what I am feeling is mine or his, it took me a while to get to this point though as my relationship was/is just so crazy making, and despite being aware of PI, I thought for ages that all of how bad I felt must be mine. It wasn't!

I keep checking out the leaving board of late which is a first for me, funny how two months of perfect calm, then four days of split black can acutely highlight the futility of a marriage with dBPDh in a way that has not been clear before now   

heh... my T today told me 3 times that I am thinking black and white about the relationship... Something I've never done. I told her about this thread and she laughed and said she can't know for sure if that's whats going on but that it's very clear I am thinking in a splitting way and looking to split her black.

So... yeah... I am thinking like I have BPD.

[hurting300]

Buddy you are completely over thinking this. She lied to you right? Ok that's bad! She did not respect you right? That's bad! She made you depressed enough to see a freaking therapist dude and you seriously think you're the sick one?

[tim_tom]

Buddy you are completely over thinking this. She lied to you right? Ok that's bad! She did not respect you right? That's bad! She made you depressed enough to see a freaking therapist dude and you seriously think you're the sick one?

well ya... as you said, I'm the one still analyzing this, I am the one that's depressed and trying to figure out if I'd want her back (like I even have the option). She's enjoying her life I'm sure with someone new.

So yah, right about now I feel like the sick one and her the healthy one. Life is too short to be wallowing in agony over this

[sweetheart]

tim_tom, it sounds to me as though you are being really hard on yourself. People take however long they need to get over something like this. It's okay to be hurt and angry and sad, and it's okay to paint your ex black if that's what you need to do at the moment. Being angry with someone and grieving the loss of someone you once loved doesn't sound like you have BPD to me, but you know this though.

Sometimes there are blocks to moving forward in our thinking and we stay stuck, so if your T has to remind you another 3 times about B+W thinking that's her job, until you are ready to move past this and onto a more fluid way of thinking, then you think how you need to until you feel ready to let go. 

I'm sorry that you are having such a tough time. 

[freedom33]

tim-tom,

Just the fact you are questioning yourself like this is a positive indication that you are not borderline. Also keep in mind that there are quite a few therapists who are borderlines themselves.

[tim_tom]

tim_tom, it sounds to me as though you are being really hard on yourself. People take however long they need to get over something like this. It's okay to be hurt and angry and sad, and it's okay to paint your ex black if that's what you need to do at the moment. Being angry with someone and grieving the loss of someone you once loved doesn't sound like you have BPD to me, but you know this though.

Sometimes there are blocks to moving forward in our thinking and we stay stuck, so if your T has to remind you another 3 times about B+W thinking that's her job, until you are ready to move past this and onto a more fluid way of thinking, then you think how you need to until you feel ready to let go. 

I'm sorry that you are having such a tough time. 

I am always hard on myself, since childhood. Maybe that's why the seemingly absolute love and adoration I was given during idolization roped me in so deeply, and why the backlash of not living up to her idolization has so devastated me

Just trying my best to understand my own culpability here, in an effort to not make the mistakes again, as well as healing rather then repressing so I don't come out of this more of an injured soul

[tim_tom]

tim-tom,

Just the fact you are questioning yourself like this is a positive indication that you are not borderline. Also keep in mind that there are quite a few therapists who are borderlines themselves.

Oh yeah, I know I am not borderline... I meant I was identifying with this thread that being around her, I had some of these traits injected into me

[freedom33]

Black and white thinking is a common defence mechanism that is found in borderlines and nons alike

[hurting300]

Yes buddy, the very fact you admit their is a problem and seeking help means your not a borderline . Yeah your depressed, needing answers. My god man, you had a brush with a cold hearted psycho. Those people can mess you up. One of my exes boyfriend's killed himself. conveniently right after she left him.

[tim_tom]

thanks guys! Just a tough time dealing with all of this... don't feel sane at the moment

[Blimblam]

thanks guys! Just a tough time dealing with all of this... don't feel sane at the moment

They can have that affect. It is uncanny how deep they can get inside your core and rip you to pieces