Is empathy always a good thing?

[MaybeSo]

Is empathy always a good thing?  I'm looking for thoughtful feedback here on this subject because I think it's important.  I am sharing a example where I began to struggle to be empathetic, and I am curious about how that happens and what to do about it.

Empathy refers to the ability to stand in someone’s shoes and ‘get’ another person’s emotional experience, or at least understand why they feel a certain way from their perspective and to convey that understanding in a manner that allows the person to feel heard and understood. All of this can be done even when what the person is experiencing is not currently or historically your own emotional experience. We are able to imagine what it’s like for a person separate from us to feel the way they do.  It’s unlike sympathy in that we can stand apart but still imagine their experience without being overcome by it.  For example, a therapist can empathize with great pain but won’t become unglued or fall apart even if the client is falling apart.  The therapist can hold the container.

Empathy is an important part of human connection; people feel seen, heard, and understood when they receive empathy.  Empathy is sometimes described as the experience of ‘feeling felt’ as described by psychiatric neuroscientist Dr. Daniel Siegel.  Pioneer of Humanistic psychotherapy, Carl Rogers, described unconditional positive regard, as a stance therapists are trained to hold when working with clients in session, and it is considered an integral part of the healing experience that therapy provides.

Empathy is crucial to healthy relationship dynamics.  It’s a key factor in emotional intelligence, and likely a requirement for maintaining healthy interpersonal connections.

By all accounts, empathy is a very good thing.

I know I can be a very empathetic person. I am able in my professional and personal life to provide people with that experience of ‘feeling felt’.

But …not always. 

My example is as follows:

I was holding an empathetic stance with a person close to me recently, regarding a difficult financial issue he was struggling with. He seemed to feel supported and appreciated my ability to be a good listener and a good friend as he went through a difficult time. I could understand how he felt, he started out sharing in a way that showed he understood his part in the debacle.  It was easy to relate to how he felt.

However, after a while, my friend began to ‘frame’ the struggle he was having through a lens of victimization. He seemed to feel as if he were being personally punished by the situation, when really it was a complex mix of both his own and other’s actions that created the problem.  I knew this because he had already shared all the details of the situation in the prior weeks.

One of the repercussions my friend faced with his problem was financial constraints that meant he would have to downgrade the budget on a project.   He was very unhappy about having to use ‘regular’ materials instead of the extra-special costly materials. I continued to take a supportive, empathetic stance.  For example, I would convey support by saying something like this….

“It’s really disappointing when you have your heart set on something that is important to you and then you have to change it.” 

Time marched on and the problem continued to occupy his attention, but nothing was really moving, he was just getting more and more upset. His thinking became even more about being punished and victimized; his thought process was something like this:

Because he works so hard and does so much for others, he shouldn’t have to be going through this difficult situation. 

As time went on, I began to struggle to take the same empathetic stance for my friend that I first had.

I began to notice feeling a bit fatigued. I was wondering when he was going to process the reality of the situation and move on instead of staying stuck.  I’d been listening to the problem for several months and there hadn’t been any movement or change. 

Also, a gap was developing between his personal experience and expectations and my own personal experience and expectations, almost akin to a cultural divide.   I usually consider myself to be adept at cultural differences, but this one was a struggle. His project was quite expensive, something only a fairly affluent person would be able to consider, even with the smaller budget he was being forced to consider.  I personally found it difficult to relate to his attitude about the problem because I would feel very lucky indeed to have such a project at all.  His issue was way out of my league, financially speaking.

Also, his belief was that because of who he was, he deserved to have things exactly as he wanted them, and it was hard to relate to that belief. I was struggling to put myself in his shoes.  My mind doesn’t easily follow this path. I tend to not allow myself to follow that kind of path in my thinking because I believe it creates suffering.  If I empathized with him, I felt I was tapping into a dark place I didn’t personally want to go.  Would I begin to tap into my own entitlement issues if I really put myself in his shoes? Would I begin to feel victimized and ripped off by life if saw the world through his eyes?  It felt yucky and a bit dangerous. 

He would also complain that his project wasn’t moving forward and would talk about the subsequent hardship the ongoing delay was creating for him. But he wouldn’t move forward with the lower budget and get the project moving. He seemed to be creating a double bind for himself and it felt stuck.  I felt frustrated, which actually probably did mirror his felt experience (empathy). I was losing my patience with his complaining, but at this point I was still just listening supportively.

At times, what I really felt like saying was “get over yourself!”  But that is not empathetic, so I just continued to listen supportively.

With a lot of mental effort, I probably could have come up with something actually empathetic to say that didn’t compromise my own value system and didn’t make me feel like I was feeding into yucky entitlement issues.  But, getting there was not easy and it was taking a lot of my mental capacity. More fatigue.

Finally, as time marched on, I grew aware that he wasn’t trying to empathize AT ALL with my experience.  This was a personal relationship.  His complaining about his situation had gone on for months.  Attuned people generally show some level of awareness about their listener’s experience as time goes on…. “gosh, you must be tired of hearing me go on and on about this”... . Or they show some awareness that their listener is a different person “oh my god, here I am complaining for weeks about my expensive project while you work everyday with inner city children”.   In personal relationships, empathy is generally a two way street, where both individuals show a curiosity or understanding about what the other person might be feeling and experiencing.  This wasn’t happening at all.

What started off as a situation where I felt comfortable providing an empathetic stance, which is something I believe in doing, turned slowly turned into a situation where I was struggling to take an empathetic stance and while I continued to listen supportively I was beginning to feel angry and resentful.

Finally, one day while my buddy launched into his troubles again, I said,

“Hey, you know, if you can’t afford the fancy materials anymore, maybe it’s time to just get what you can afford and move on and finish the project.” 

He went straight to the “I deserve it because of how hard I work, I shouldn’t have to do this on a smaller budget” part of his belief system…. and I interjected that we all have to deal with the cards placed in front of us. 

Gulp.

Taken aback, he protested how hard he works….and I found myself bristling and actually felt angry.  I barked back…

“I work just as hard as you do, probably harder, and I don’t believe it entitles me to have things I can’t afford!”

My friend was quite disappointed with my less than empathetic stance.

A lack of empathy can break connection and that’s exactly what happened.

He was NOT happy with me; he was specifically disappointed because he was hoping that I would “at least show some empathy” for the latest installment of his ongoing situation, and I hadn’t done that.

I apologized that I wasn’t able to provide him with the empathy he was expecting. 

When he left that day he seemed quite peeved with me.

Several days later, when this ‘lack of empathy’ on my part came-up in conversation again between us again, I offered another apology that I was not able to give him the empathy he was looking for, and I asked if he would like to hear why I was finding it so difficult to take a continued empathetic stance about his situation. He said “no”, he had “no interest in learning or hearing about it.”   This was a very direct statement about his lack of interest in my experience. I felt very disgusted with his attitude and quickly left the room and created some distance between us. 

So I ask:

Is empathy always a good thing?

Are there times when empathy isn’t appropriate or beneficial?

If done correctly, do we have nothing to lose by maintaining an empathetic stance?

Are there times when people otherwise capable of empathy, lose the capacity to provide it? 

 

If you normally can tap into empathy, but are struggling with it, should you persevere to find empathy inside of you…. Always no matter what?

Could empathy been employed in a helpful, functional manner…for example…if I’d said “it sounds like you really feel you deserve to have special things” would that have been both empathetic and enlightening?  In other words, would keeping an empathetic stance help him in some way? (beyond the feel-good aspect of it).   Would it have helped me in some way?

Or, can a lack of empathy be a sign, if not forthcoming, that maybe the situation needs something other than empathy? 

Or, maybe the situation calls for something in addition to empathy?

Can a person ever be too empathetic?

[fromheeltoheal]

Is empathy always a good thing?

I think empathy, the ability to feel, understand and share another person's emotions, is always a good thing, as long as we use it well, and it isn't the end-all; there needs to be more in a relationship.

I've often been able to empathize with people, strangers I don't even know, but it is obvious to me how they feel and I can connect with it, although I don't know them and don't necessarily care, but I still know how they feel, been there.  But I don't need to share that with them, it's a choice.

Now when two people empathize with each other a true connection is formed, a heart to heart connection, in the end the most important thing.  And of course, as you mention, it's possible to empathize with someone and not have it reciprocated, and if it isn't, where's the friendship?  I've removed a lot of folks from my life because of that, and I'm sure people have removed me for the same reason.  :)ifferent pages, and that's OK.

But in a friendship we don't need to be constrained to an "empathetic response" all the time, meaning we can and should be able, in the best of friendships, to tell someone our truth, knowing they don't want to hear it, because we've empathized with them, but having someone tell you something you don't want to hear, because it's the truth and the person wants what's best for you, is a mark of a great friendship.  I like the concept of life scouts: hey friend, please go over there and look at my life, tell me what you see.  And as with any scout, it's to everyone's advantage for the scout to relate what they see as accurately and completely as possible.  Yes, the ability to empathize allows us to feel what other people are feeling, but we're not them, there's still a distance, so we can be an effective external 'scout' if we're in rapport.

So your friend.  I find it useful to ask someone "do you want to know what I think?"  And if they say yes, I might say, in your case, "I think you're playing victim and it's not serving you."  Sometimes we really are victims of something, sometimes we 'play the victim card' (card phrases are dumb), we play victim because victims are relieved of responsibility for whatever and it feels better: poor me!  It's a cop-out really, and a 'true friend' would say as much, not from an accusatory place but from an empowering one: "I see you as so much more than this, don't play victim, it doesn't look good on you, what do you need to do to turn it around, what can I do to help?"  And then things are either going to blow up or you will get closer, or maybe one and then the other, later.  In any case, you would and could retain an ability to empathize with him through it all, it's just a matter of how you use it and if it's reciprocated.

One man's opinion... .

[Harri]

Hi MaybeSo. 

I can relate to your situation in some ways.  In situations where nothing can be done to correct or fix a situation, then I usually have endless amounts of empathy and I will hear a person out until they get through whatever it is.  I can also maintain my empathy when people can recognize that they are still talking about an issue months later like you mentioned or are afraid to try something else.  To me that demonstrates self awareness and indicates they will eventually move through this.  But I have little patience for people who are unaware that anyone else exists or has needs and/or are consumed by entitlement issues.  I do not want to offend you and I do not know your friend at all, but in my world, your friend is what I call a drainer.  I have limited patience and time for such things.  I need to see hints of recognition and self awareness to be able to maintain my empathy.  People who have self awareness and can recognize the needs of others do not drain me at all and sometimes, my energy reserves are filled because we can at least talk about things.  But if someone can't even recognize others outside of their own self and actually say "no" when asked if he wants to hear my viewpoint... .well, I have no empathy for that.  I also feel that to continue to say nothing is not only a disservice to me but to the person who is in pain.  So empathy has a place and is a valuable way to show care, love, concern, support etc, but if taken too far it is no longer support.  In my mind it becomes enabling and harmful for everyone involved.

The trick is perhaps learning when to speak up.  I have trouble with this because I let my frustration build, I begin to feel unvalued and unseen and if I am not careful, I can explode.  No good ever comes from that.    

So I don't know if I answered your question sufficiently or not, but I appreciate the opportunity to take a closer look at my feelings on empathy. 

tldr:  empathy has a place and a time, and sometimes a time limit!

[fromheeltoheal]

So empathy has a place and is a valuable way to show care, love, concern, support etc, but if taken too far it is no longer support.  In my mind it becomes enabling and harmful for everyone involved.

And to expand, the ability to empathize means we're capable of connecting with how someone else feels enough to feel it ourselves.  Anything beyond that, like supporting or enabling, is beyond empathizing, in fact it's possible to empathize with people we don't care about or don't even know.  But if we're in relationship with someone, we can choose what we do or say, and it doesn't need to be supportive or nice unless we so choose; the action is beyond the empathy. 

Sidebar: my dog ran into a tree chasing a squirrel yesterday and she's sore; I find it pretty easy to empathize with her, we do well together, so she got a McDonald's cheeseburger as a treat.  She appreciated that.

[Louise7777]

Hi MaybeSo!

I can relate to your experience, I even posted about something that was annoying me some time ago.

Long story short: this particular ex "friend" of mine is an uHPD. She can talk hours about her problems without asking me a simple "how are you doing?". Her problems were futile compared to one I had back then (health issue). Her problems either were facebook "boyfriends" or some married men she dates.

She had unrealistic expectations regarding the r/s (not to mention her love for drama) and that was draining me. We ended up no contact.

It seems your friend is somehow similar to her: revolving around the same issue for months and when we finally say our minds, they dont like it at all. I guess we are bursting their bubble somehow.

It shows me your friend has huge N traits, he has no awareness of how draining his behaviour is, not to mention the entitlement.

What he wants from you is more than empathy, he is actually draining you and making you angry and frustrated. You deal with people with serious issues and listening to him just makes you realize over and over how far from reality he is.

I think empathy is good, but thats beyond empathy.

[MaybeSo]

Thanks so much for the feedback, really fantastic insight from all... .

But I have little patience for people who are unaware that anyone else exists or has needs and/or are consumed by entitlement issues.  I do not want to offend you and I do not know your friend at all, but in my world, your friend is what I call a drainer.  I have limited patience and time for such things.  I need to see hints of recognition and self awareness to be able to maintain my empathy.

This is the area that especially interests me.  

What is the quality of empathy that is given to one person w/out a reciprocal exchange... .for example... .I know in a professional setting such as therapy, empathy is offered in a one sided manner... .the client doesn't have to extend empathy for the therapist... .it's the therapists job to maintain an empathetic stance.

Versus the quality of empathy that is a dynamic,  reciprocal exchange between two people... .where it's flowing back and forth between two or more people, like a fluid dance.

In friendship or love relationship... .it appears that empathy really does work best when it's moving back and forth in a shared, dynamic manner between two people.  Both people can gain a lot from that reciprocal exchange.  Though I can see occasions when only one person may be able to take that empathic role... .for example... .if the other person is in a crises.  But if that goes on too long... .I think it starts to be problematic.

Because... .something very different starts to happen... .where the one providing the empathy predominantly or over a long period of time... .begins to loose the energy or will to stay in that stance over time.    

This gets tackled a lot on the Staying Board where partners often have to get their batteries charged through empathic connection with other friends and family when pwBPD can't be in that stance with them in a way that is shared.  Which is unfortunate because the pwBpd may benefit longer and  more robustly from SHARED empathy that is going back and forth in a dynamic way, then by just feeding at the trough with no dynamic exchange happening. I wonder if that is partly why a pwBPD can be so hungry and needy for it... .it's right there but they are denying themselves the energy exchange that comes when BOTH people are able to share each other's experience... .rather than just holding court while one person complains and receives and empathic stance from the listener ad nauseum.  It seems THEY are missing out on that dynamic exchange, too.   And even if you are getting your batteries charged in connection with others who are more reciprocal... .I think if you are in a lopsided relationship where you provide the empathetic stance predominantly... .there would always be some fatigue that would set in or some discomforting feelings while doing that long term... .which can GET in the way of maintaining the empathic stance.  I think this exchange that happens when two people are both being empathic with one another gets overlooked in favor of empathy being spoken about as something that YOU give to another.   I don't hear empathy being spoken about as a dynamic exchange very often... .I most think of it as something I must provide or give to someone who may or may not be involved in any kind of dynamic exchange.

recognition and self awareness

I was very aware that if my friend had even once or twice said something, anything... .that hinted at an awareness of what my experience might be like as the listener... .that I would have been much more available to continue in a supportive stance with him... .it wouldn't have had to be a lot... .I didn't need the focus to turn to me or anything... .just a statement that even briefly acknowledged that I'm there... .I'm listening... .I've been listening for a long time... .that would have been like BAM!... .I'm ready to listen some more... .

I find it so interesting how that tiny little blip of self-awareness  would have made a HUGE difference in my perception and feelings and my ability to maintain an empathic stance. It  really was like I was completely empty and had run out of gas... .thus the feeling of being drained.  Exactly.

[OutOfEgypt]

I don't believe empathy ever should come at the expense of truth.  If my child is sad, then fine.  I can feel for their situation.  If they turn it into a pity party or temper tantrum, I respond differently.

[Skip]

Empathy refers to the ability to stand in someone’s shoes and ‘get’ another person’s emotional experience, or at least understand why they feel a certain way from their perspective and to convey that understanding in a manner that allows the person to feel heard and understood.

I might modify this slightly:

Empathy refers to the ability to stand in someone’s shoes and ‘get’ another person’s emotional experience, or at least understand why they feel a certain way from their perspective and to convey that understanding in a manner that allows the person to feel heard and understood.

This is always a good thing.

The definition does not include endorsed or validated.

I think you question is more about what you do with this understanding.  Think in terms of SET.  What is the truth or message you give back.  It can be encouragement, discouragement, involvement, independence, etc.

Did you get off track of your own truth or values as this communication continued over time?

[Grey Kitty]

Interesting questions.

Empathy seems to me to be a good thing... .or perhaps I would say it is a good tool to improve relationships and communications between people.

Your example of a therapist is actually not one-sided at all--there is an exchange there. The T is the only one expected to provide empathy... .the client is the only one expected to pay for the services.

My question from your story is why you are making time and energy for this friend. Being empathic with him is one form of giving him time and energy, but I don't see anything wrong with the empathy itself.

[MaybeSo]

Interesting questions.

Empathy seems to me to be a good thing... .or perhaps I would say it is a good tool to improve relationships and communications between people.

Your example of a therapist is actually not one-sided at all--there is an exchange there. The T is the only one expected to provide empathy... .the client is the only one expected to pay for the services.

I of course was focusing on the therapy relationship as an example because it is an example of where only one person is focused on providing an empathetic stance. I wasn’t meaning to suggest the therapy relationship was devoid of any exchange at all. In deed I  would say a therapist can get a lot out their work with clients, even beyond just payment, because the work can be very rich and rewarding, but it is still the therapist job to provide unconditional positive regard and empathy for the client, and it’s not expected or required that the client reciprocate that same stance. (though it’s considered healing and likely that the client may begin to develop empathy himself if it’s provided, because that’s how it works in child development). So  I am curious about the exchange, or not, of empathy…because I’m curious about what actually goes on between two people when empathy is given back and forth (reciprocal) versus what happens when it’s not reciprocal.  It involves work, that is for sure. In deed, therapist charge by the hour for this service.  I am noodling though this dynamic, especially as it pertains to friendships and intimate relations.    

My question from your story is why you are making time and energy for this friend. Being empathic with him is one form of giving him time and energy, but I don't see anything wrong with the empathy itself.

Again…I think I’m trying to noodle through what exactly happens when empathy is not reciprocal. It is a huge topic on this board, and it obviously triggers a lot of people, it certainly triggers me…as my example shows. I get that it’s triggering, I’m just trying to go deeper into what exactly is the mechanism that is so triggering about NOT receiving empathy in return. It’s probably the #1 reason why it’s so hard to emotionally validate when we have a partner with BPD for example.  

So, we are agreed that providing empathy takes time and energy and resources.   It’s work.  So if it’s not reciprocated…over time…I assume any person naturally would feel resentful or have empathy fatigue or something of that nature?  Because it’s the exchange that keeps re fueling the batteries so that you can keep the stance of empathy…and without the batteries getting refueled…you run on empty and have no more to give.  That’s probably one of the main reasons a therapy session is only one hour long.  And on the staying board…we are told to get empathy from other sources, because our partners likely can’t charge our batteries that way…but will need a lot of our empathy ongoing from us.

In my example…I agree there was nothing wrong about the empathy I was providing…except that over time…when I got none in return…I began to loose my ability to feel empathy for him.  More than that…I began to feel angry toward him, and impatient.  All the things that are the opposite of empathy. THAT concerns me.  

Hmmm...

So if the Dali Lama had had the same exchange with my friend…he probably would have said or done something that was affirming, empathetic, maybe even a bit humorous or light, and kept the connection and good feelings going b/w him and the person, while still minding his own space/time/boundaries…even though he wasn’t getting any real empathy or curiosity in return.  Right?  So…as a fanciful example, the Dali Lama or someone really supremely practiced would somehow maybe have his batteries so charged through other means that it wouldn’t even phase him to be around an annoying, draining person…he would just provide an empathic stance and not ever feel like…’danm this guy is irritating me, when is he going to move on?’.  Or if he did feel that way he would still maintain his empathic stance. 

[Grey Kitty]

In my example…I agree there was nothing wrong about the empathy I was providing…except that over time…when I got none in return…I began to loose my ability to feel empathy for him.  More than that…I began to feel angry toward him, and impatient.  All the things that are the opposite of empathy. THAT concerns me.

What is your concern about this? I see nothing wrong with your feelings. (As many here have said, there are no wrong feelings!)

Or is something else about what you said or did concerning you?

[123Phoebe]

So if the Dali Lama had had the same exchange with my friend…he probably would have said or done something that was affirming, empathetic, maybe even a bit humorous or light, and kept the connection and good feelings going b/w him and the person, while still minding his own space/time/boundaries…even though he wasn’t getting any real empathy or curiosity in return.  Right?  So…as a fanciful example, the Dali Lama or someone really supremely practiced would somehow maybe have his batteries so charged through other means that it wouldn’t even phase him to be around an annoying, draining person…he would just provide an empathic stance and not ever feel like…’danm this guy is irritating me, when is he going to move on?’.  Or if he did feel that way he would still maintain his empathic stance. 

Empathy can turn into enabling then resentment, if we're not careful and aware of our own boundaries being overtaken.  Empathy toward ourselves is needed here, too.

"Hmm, I can see this is a real concern for you and sure hope it all works out!  I find myself having a hard time relating to your plight at the moment; mind if we talk about something else?"

[Blimblam]

So if the Dali Lama had had the same exchange with my friend…he probably would have said or done something that was affirming, empathetic, maybe even a bit humorous or light, and kept the connection and good feelings going b/w him and the person, while still minding his own space/time/boundaries…even though he wasn’t getting any real empathy or curiosity in return.  Right?  So…as a fanciful example, the Dali Lama or someone really supremely practiced would somehow maybe have his batteries so charged through other means that it wouldn’t even phase him to be around an annoying, draining person…he would just provide an empathic stance and not ever feel like…’danm this guy is irritating me, when is he going to move on?’.  Or if he did feel that way he would still maintain his empathic stance. 

Empathy can turn into enabling then resentment, if we're not careful and aware of our own boundaries being overtaken.  Empathy toward ourselves is needed here, too.

"Hmm, I can see this is a real concern for you and sure hope it all works out!  I find myself having a hard time relating to your plight at the moment; mind if we talk about something else?"

Wow this is very insightful and I can relate to it.  This is an issue I had in my relationships in the past. Resentment for the other persons lack of empathy and inability to identify their own projections.

I ended up projecting expectations on others to recognize their projection which confused them. I then identified with the part of them that keeps them from recognizing their projection and enabled them to scapegoat by identifying me as the punitive parent. 

This would cause me to withdraw to heal. I would then project my hope to understand onto them. This confused them though.

My projection of hope and empathy I need for myself to find understaning.

[goldylamont]

In my example…I agree there was nothing wrong about the empathy I was providing…except that over time…when I got none in return…I began to loose my ability to feel empathy for him.  More than that…I began to feel angry toward him, and impatient.  All the things that are the opposite of empathy. THAT concerns me.  

you seem to place a higher value on your empathy than you do on your anger and impatience. as if anger and impatience should be shunned an empathy held in a higher regard. i think this comes from not fully trusting yourself and your reaction to a situation. for example, if i notice myself getting angry or impatient with someone, i try to take a step back and see if my feelings are justified. most of the time they are and then i can tell the person to stop or remove myself from the situation. if i'm wrong, i trust that after realizing this that i can apologize or discuss with this person to resolve the issue. but in general i don't have feelings of anger and impatience and then go straight to thinking something is wrong with me for feeling this way. it feels like this to me, as if you feel there is something wrong with you that you need to fix for feeling anger/impatience.

your anger and impatience are tools for you if listen to their message. when you become aware of this, inquire why they have come forth and then act to satisfy their need to change your situation. in the situation between you and your friend, don't you think your anger and impatience were right? and the reason why your anger/impatience grew over time was because you continued to dishonor the truth they were trying to deliver by continuing to offer support when you didn't really believe it was merited. it's anger and impatience that brought you to a higher awareness that empathy blinded you to.

we can't truly be strong empathic individuals unless we listen to our full body of emotions. true empathy can only occur when you feel safe and secure emotionally yourself. then you can be vulnerable and experience a whole array of emotions from shared joy to despair. but the path has to be clear to be this vulnerable. anger throws up your boundaries (keep out!) and then when it knows you are at a safe distance, it's job is done, so you can move onto your vulnerable emotions and be more empathic.

So if the Dali Lama had had the same exchange with my friend…he probably would have said or done something that was affirming, empathetic, maybe even a bit humorous or light, and kept the connection and good feelings going b/w him and the person, while still minding his own space/time/boundaries…even though he wasn’t getting any real empathy or curiosity in return.  Right?  So…as a fanciful example, the Dali Lama or someone really supremely practiced would somehow maybe have his batteries so charged through other means that it wouldn’t even phase him to be around an annoying, draining person…he would just provide an empathic stance and not ever feel like…’danm this guy is irritating me, when is he going to move on?’.  Or if he did feel that way he would still maintain his empathic stance.  

ha   well if i took a gander at what the Dali Lama would have done, my guess is that he would have listened to your friend with compassion at first. but because the DL is so self aware he would have picked up on any in-congruency with your friend after only a few moments. i don't think the Dali Lama would have allowed the friend to go on for months complaining. perhaps he would smile, and after a few minutes (not months), stop your friend from talking and try to convey that he would be happier if he let go of such petty attachments. suggest that his unhappiness was rooted in his inability to feel gratitude for the amazing things he already possessed in life... . 

[MaybeSo]

In my example…I agree there was nothing wrong about the empathy I was providing…except that over time…when I got none in return…I began to loose my ability to feel empathy for him.  More than that…I began to feel angry toward him, and impatient.  All the things that are the opposite of empathy. THAT concerns me. 


you seem to place a higher value on your empathy than you do on your anger and impatience. as if anger and impatience should be shunned an empathy held in a higher regard. i think this comes from not fully trusting yourself and your reaction to a situation. for example, if i notice myself getting angry or impatient with someone, i try to take a step back and see if my feelings are justified. most of the time they are and then i can tell the person to stop or remove myself from the situation. if i'm wrong, i trust that after realizing this that i can apologize or discuss with this person to resolve the issue. but in general i don't have feelings of anger and impatience and then go straight to thinking something is wrong with me for feeling this way. it feels like this to me, as if you feel there is something wrong with you that you need to fix for feeling anger/impatience.

Yes, that is correct.  I place a higher value on being able to stay empathic, and I tend to self criticize or shun what we consider more negative emotions such as frustration or impatience or anger.  Thank you for highlight that, b/c I am the first to tell people all the time that their feelings aren't better or worse... .but I can see I am slipping into that myself here.

your anger and impatience are tools for you if listen to their message. when you become aware of this, inquire why they have come forth and then act to satisfy their need to change your situation. in the situation between you and your friend, don't you think your anger and impatience were right? and the reason why your anger/impatience grew over time was because you continued to dishonor the truth they were trying to deliver by continuing to offer support when you didn't really believe it was merited. it's anger and impatience that brought you to a higher awareness that empathy blinded you to.

we can't truly be strong empathic individuals unless we listen to our full body of emotions. true empathy can only occur when you feel safe and secure emotionally yourself. then you can be vulnerable and experience a whole array of emotions from shared joy to despair. but the path has to be clear to be this vulnerable. anger throws up your boundaries (keep out!) and then when it knows you are at a safe distance, it's job is done, so you can move onto your vulnerable emotions and be more empathic.

I agree with all of this... and I listened to a really good talk on empathy by an expert these last couple of days and she as researcher and empath highlights the same thing.  In fact, she speaks about how some people think that you can't be an empath and get angry... .and her opinion is just the opposite... .empaths who are on their game really feel it all and are in touch with the whole array of emotions, not just the "positive" ones.

One thing the empathy expert talked about (Karla McLaren) also was real empathy v. an attempt to look empathetic or people who think they are being empathic when they really aren't.

Her example:

You notice a person who is walking along and then trips and stumbles, maybe nearly falls but catches themselves.  You can see immediately they are feeling embarrassed.

As an empath... .her response would be to immediately turn her head away from the person who stumbled so as not to make eye contact which would just reinforce that YOU did see them trip... .thus making the person feel truly embarrassed.  This is an interesting example... .b/c that's exactly the kind of thing I would do if I saw that... .if I could see the person was fine... .I'd turn my head and even pretend I didn't see anything.  To preserve the persons dignity.

Contrast that with another person who sees the person trip and then runs over and makes a huge fuss over it and just goes on and on to see if they are okay ... .thus looking like the concerned, nurturing bystander ... .but has no clue or lacks empathy to realize that the kindest thing they could do is nothing... .to just turn away and leave the person alone and in peace.

I so get that. 

She also says having empathy doesn't mean you don't get pissed off.

Below are links to a free interview with Karla McLaren, Part 1 and Part 2 though Sounds True.com on the Art of Empathy.  Below is how she describes Six Aspects of Empathy.  I believe I had trouble in the area of #6, Perceptive Engagement when I was dealing with my friend.  Most of the time I'm okay in this, but not always.

1.Emotion Contagion: Before empathy can take place, you need to sense that an emotion is occurring – or that an emotion is expected of you. There is currently great debate about how emotion stimulation and contagion occur, and how we realize that emotions are required from us, but it is agreed that the process of empathy is dependent upon our capacity to feel and share emotions. Empathy is first and foremost an emotional skill.

2.Empathic Accuracy: This is the ability to accurately identify and understand emotional states and intentions in yourself and others.

3.Emotion Regulation: In order to be an effective empath, you’ve got to develop the ability to understand, regulate, and work with your own emotions; you’ve got to be self-aware. When you can clearly identify and regulate your own emotions, you’ll tend to be able to function skillfully in the presence of strong emotions (your own and others’), rather than being overtaken or knocked out of commission by them.

4.Perspective Taking: This skill helps you imaginatively put yourself in the place of others, see situations through their eyes, and accurately sense what they might be feeling – such that you can understand what others might want or need.

5.Concern for Others: Empathy helps you connect with others, but the quality of your response depends upon your ability to care about them as well. When you feel emotions with others, accurately identify those emotions, regulate them in yourself, and take the perspective of others – your sensitive concern will help you engage with them in a way that displays your care and compassion.

6.Perceptive Engagement: This skill allows you to make perceptive decisions based upon your empathy and to respond or act (if necessary) in a way that works for others. Perceptive engagement can be considered the pinnacle of empathic skill, because it combines your capacity to sense and accurately identify the emotions of others, regulate your own emotions, take the perspective of others, focus on them with care and concern, and then do something skillful based upon your perceptions. Notably, in perceptive engagement, you’ll often do something for another that would not work for you at all – and might not even be in your best interests. Perceptive engagement is about the needs of the other.

www.soundstrue.com/weeklywisdom/index.php?source=podcast&p=8585&category=IATE&version=full&loc=directaccess

www.soundstrue.com/weeklywisdom/index.php?source=podcast&p=8605&category=IATE&version=full&loc=directaccess

[MaybeSo]

Empathy refers to the ability to stand in someone’s shoes and ‘get’ another person’s emotional experience, or at least understand why they feel a certain way from their perspective and to convey that understanding in a manner that allows the person to feel heard and understood.

I might modify this slightly:

Empathy refers to the ability to stand in someone’s shoes and ‘get’ another person’s emotional experience, or at least understand why they feel a certain way from their perspective and to convey that understanding in a manner that allows the person to feel heard and understood.

This is always a good thing.

The definition does not include endorsed or validated.

I think you question is more about what you do with this understanding.  Think in terms of SET.  What is the truth or message you give back.  It can be encouragement, discouragement, involvement, independence, etc.

Did you get off track of your own truth or values as this communication continued over time?

I guess my message was, over time... .that he needed to get unstuck and quit playing the victim.  Or that I was too tired to hear anymore of this particular tail of woe.  Something in that arena.

The hard part is conveying a difficult message in a way that is softened with an empathic stance.

Or, I could just drop sending any message, soft or otherwise, and just take care of myself sooner... .before I'm burned out and feeling irritated.  Just remove myself from it.

Right?

[fromheeltoheal]

I find it helpful to remember the difference between empathy and validation.  We can't give someone empathy, but we can empathize with them, meaning we can connect with how someone is feeling, what they're experiencing, so well that we feel it ourselves, because we've been there and we have the ability to connect.  We can empathize with someone we don't even know, without saying anything to them.  Now validation, that's when we might echo back to them what we're feeling, and therefore what they're feeling, in a way that is supportive, and therefore validating.  And sometimes our best friends empathize with us, meaning they connect with how we feel, and then they jump down our throat and tell us to cut the crap, because we're behaving in a way that doesn't support us, and they want us to get off it because they care; that can be done while fully empathizing.

So if you value this dude as a friend, you could tell him that you're burned out and irritated and see what happens, like maybe he'll have a blinding flash of the obvious and get off it, and your relationship will deepen, or you may decide you don't want to continue a relationship with him and bail, all the while empathizing.

My two cents... .

[MaybeSo]

Agreed. I think some of my original questions could have been targeted at providing emotional validation, rather than empathy.

but, it requires empathy (ability to care about or sense persons perspective) to provide emotional validation.

and then that begs the question is it always beneficial to provide validation. I understand validation isn't agreement. But that too can be a dicey area... .for example how to validate my friend when he is deep into victim - entitlement beliefs. That has a real yuck factor for me... .I sometimes find it so hard to manage my own aversion / responses when what is presented is super gross to me.

This stuff can be so hard!

I'm purposefully not focusing on the relationship with this person because it's not important for the purpose of this thread... .he provided a experience that highlighted some issues I want to explore re: empathy, reciprocity, etc. in terms of my own struggles or questions... .but it could have been anyone. So I'm not at all worried about how to either keep or jettison the friendship I used in my example... .It's not an issue I'm focused on. I'm focused on understanding my own responses to challenging or difficult people and how I use or don't use my capacity to empathize, validate, take care of myself, etc.

The feedback I'm getting on this thread has been helpful, I'm looking at these issues from different angles, thank you!

[123Phoebe]

and then that begs the question is it always beneficial to provide validation. I understand validation isn't agreement. But that too can be a dicey area... .for example how to validate my friend when he is deep into victim - entitlement beliefs. That has a real yuck factor for me... .I sometimes find it so hard to manage my own aversion / responses when what is presented is super gross to me.

This stuff can be so hard!

I don't find it necessary or essential to provide validation 'always'; don't validate the invalid.

What's invalid to one might be perfectly valid to another.  Is it invalid to you?  Don't validate it if you take your reality seriously, rooted in your own personal values. 

We can agree to disagree and still be friends, without trying to change the other to come around to our way of thinking. 

[Grey Kitty]

One of my ideas on providing validation is that I do it when I'm feeling good about validating--I'm feeling that this encounter is worth the effort, or the r/s is worth it, or the actual validation just feels right and easy to me.

Partly this is practical--If I'm not really feeling it, my validation doesn't go very well.

Another reason is the one you observed--providing more validation than you feel like results in you feeling resentful or taken advantage of.

[Pingo]

When I was young I had a friend who was a great, empathic listener.  I was going through a rough patch and I would call him and tell him my problems, probably over and over again.  Being immature, I wasn't being very reciprocal.  One day he said to me that he was sorry for the pain I was in but it was taking too much out of him to hear about it endlessly.  This was a wake up call for me.  I realised how selfish I had been.  This conversation changed my life!  Instead of enabling, he told his truth.  He wasn't judging.  He was just being honest.  From that point on I became conscious of whether I was being a good friend or just using a friend.  And I became a much better listener, asking them about their life, their problems.  I guess this is when I really grew up.  I was 26 btw!

We aren't responsible for others' reaction to us speaking our truth.  It may be an enlightening moment for the other person or they may resent us for changing the rules.  But if we are coming from a place of non-judgement and honesty, taking care of our own boundaries, then it's the healthy choice.  I know for myself and many people on this board, this is where we struggle.  For myself, I get so wrapped up in others' reactions that I compromise myself and end up growing resentful.  I've been very good at figuring this out in friendships and with my family and creating healthy boundaries but still struggle in the r/s... .it's a work in progress.

[MaybeSo]

When I was young I had a friend who was a great, empathic listener.  I was going through a rough patch and I would call him and tell him my problems, probably over and over again.  Being immature, I wasn't being very reciprocal.  One day he said to me that he was sorry for the pain I was in but it was taking too much out of him to hear about it endlessly.  This was a wake up call for me.  I realised how selfish I had been.  This conversation changed my life!  Instead of enabling, he told his truth.  He wasn't judging.  He was just being honest.  From that point on I became conscious of whether I was being a good friend or just using a friend.  And I became a much better listener, asking them about their life, their problems.  I guess this is when I really grew up.  I was 26 btw!

We aren't responsible for others' reaction to us speaking our truth.  It may be an enlightening moment for the other person or they may resent us for changing the rules.  But if we are coming from a place of non-judgement and honesty, taking care of our own boundaries, then it's the healthy choice.  I know for myself and many people on this board, this is where we struggle.  For myself, I get so wrapped up in others' reactions that I compromise myself and end up growing resentful.  I've been very good at figuring this out in friendships and with my family and creating healthy boundaries but still struggle in the r/s... .it's a work in progress.

Good points , thank you for that. 

[spemat]

If it is a two way interaction and there is no manipulation of my place, I feel like it is a good thing.  When I am manic, I have no empathy at all and I have to face the mirror after that and I tend to be really nasty.  However, I lose it quick when I know I am just being used or a pawn in drama.  I find that growing up in that situation found me initially thinking almost anything was dramatic because of my mom and her BPD was not treatable, she was angry and paranoid most of the time and she battled on hard until she died in her sleep from Xanax.

I tend to feel like some issues are hot button issues.  For instance, many people who demonize people with this illness or bipolar disorder sufferers will go from experience from a more abusive, mean type and think it applies to all and even when I have tried to water down my experience to make some sufferers of BPD know that I mean a small percentage, it is not heard.  I used to get the same way about the bipolar description, a new mood swing every few months types who don't take meds and are in denial and tend to harm others.  I think that with this issue, it helps to be open minded.  I have been stable since 2007 and everyone I have shared my illness with since think I am a liar because my flavor of mania lasts for months to a year so I am acute in that period only and not cycling all the time or they think BPD is bipolar disorder and have no idea what to think.

[patientandclear]

When I was young I had a friend who was a great, empathic listener.  I was going through a rough patch and I would call him and tell him my problems, probably over and over again.  Being immature, I wasn't being very reciprocal.  One day he said to me that he was sorry for the pain I was in but it was taking too much out of him to hear about it endlessly.  This was a wake up call for me.  I realised how selfish I had been.  This conversation changed my life!  Instead of enabling, he told his truth.  He wasn't judging.  He was just being honest.  From that point on I became conscious of whether I was being a good friend or just using a friend.  And I became a much better listener, asking them about their life, their problems.  I guess this is when I really grew up.  I was 26 btw!

We aren't responsible for others' reaction to us speaking our truth.  It may be an enlightening moment for the other person or they may resent us for changing the rules.  But if we are coming from a place of non-judgement and honesty, taking care of our own boundaries, then it's the healthy choice.  I know for myself and many people on this board, this is where we struggle.  For myself, I get so wrapped up in others' reactions that I compromise myself and end up growing resentful.  I've been very good at figuring this out in friendships and with my family and creating healthy boundaries but still struggle in the r/s... .it's a work in progress.

Similar to this: I still regard my mom as a really excellent parent.  She was kind and always listened.  When I had hard painful stuff to process with her she was the opposite of judgmental -- she'd hold me, identify with the feeling, make me feel "normal," didn't rush in to fix stuff that was just genuinely hard and confusing.  She was very empathetic.

However on occasion I was being selfish or self-centered or really just kind of ridiculous and entitled.  On those occasions after listening for a bit, she would give me her feedback that this seemed pretty selfish or self-centered or entitled.

Honestly it was the very fact that she gave me different reactions depending on whether I was coming to the interaction with a manipulative or more "clean hands" approach, is what allowed me to trust her.  Her reactions were sound and she could tell the difference between when I was full of ___ or full of pain and confusion.

I think we owe each other more honesty than validation (or demonstrated empathy) alone makes possible.  Which is the beauty of SET.  The T part is what makes the S and the E work, and be trustworthy.

[pallavirajsinghani]

Is empathy always a good thing?


No. 

I think that  the quality of Empathy in itself is neutral.  Whether it is used for the good or evil is upto the person who has this quality.

Please allow me to illustrate:

Mother Theresa had this quality and she used it to help thousands of children.

Hitler had this quality... .he used it to convert thousands of individuals into becoming deadly Nazis.

So in itself, like energy or intellect this attribute is neutral in nature.

It is the conduit that changes it... .for the good or the bad.