Need advice - now he says he'll pick up the kids himsefl when it's not his day

[momtara]

Obviously exH doesn't like my setting boundaries and refusing to engage him more than necessary.  He sent me an email yesterday saying he wanted to stop by the house and drop off clothes for the kids.  I didn't get a chance to respond.  Then he just sent one saying he will pick up our son at day care that day because he has clothes for him.  He has never before decided unilaterally to just come pick a kid up when it's not his day.

He only has visitation every other weekend.  However, we have joint custody technically.  Technically he can get him when he wants... .sort of? 

How should I respond?  Set a firm boundary saying that it's not his day and we have to agree on it if he's picking it up?  Or something else?  I think if the law is that he can pick him up when he wants, then saying no will set him off more.  But I sort of have to nip this maybe?

I really don't like seeing him more than necessary. 

[momtara]

OK, I found out that he can't legally pick him up if it's not his day.

However, I am wondering if I am throwing too many boundaries at him at once.  I need to say no, but I need to do it in some gentle way.  The complication is that it's also parents night at school, so he will suggest that we go and then each pick up a kid.  To say no would seem pretty controlling.

[Grey Kitty]

It is not being controlling to set a firm boundary. [Aside: working on getting him to take meds / see a T *IS* controlling]

Emailing "No, you cannot violate our custody agreement. (plus one or two sentences explaining exactly how it would do that)" and leaving it at that is a firm boundary.

As for parents night--My guess is that you have no legal right to tell him he cannot attend. Either just don't mention it, as he already should know about it... .or  make it clear that his attendance is his choice. (Telling him not to come sounds controlling.)

Note: the "normal" result of enforcing boundaries the first time or enforcing new boundaries is an extinction burst--being more angry/provocative/crazy/pushy/etc. than before because it is a change. If you back down from your boundaries, in the face of his extinction burst, you are teaching him that he can get what he wants by turning up the volume and acting out at you... .not the lesson you want him to learn.

[Cmjo]

Hello, I know exactly what you are dealing with Momtara, and why you dont know how to respond to him because you are scared of saying te wrong thing and setting him off. Im a lawyer and I give advice just like Greykitty has to you, but its impossible to think clearly when you are a mum in tihs situation and know how to act clearly and rationally. I would go with Grey kittys advice and write that firm boundary setting email sticking to the rules of which day each of you picks up the kids.

[Grey Kitty]

Just stumbled upon something helpful for you: the "BIFF" format for responding to hostile (or confrontational) emails:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=133835.0

[momtara]

Thanks, all!  I read the BIFF link and it's helpful.

So far I haven't responded at all.  Sometimes he just drops the request.  But sometimes he doesn't, and by not responding, I've made it worse.  Agh!

What complicates matters is that this is on back to school night.  So he might suggest that we pick our child up together after going to the night.  Or he may say that he will get one child and I'll get the other.  What then?  It almost seems controlling to tell him he can't do that.   And really, it's not the end of the world, but does it set a bad precedent?

Anotehr complication is that he says he has clothes to drop off for our child - so he's trying to seem nice.  Ughhhh!

[momtara]

I told him that would be contrary to the parenting schedule.  He wrote back and said it's in the plan that he can pick them up at day care or school if he gives me advanced notice.  It's NOT in our plan.  But my atty did tell me at one point that legally he could do it.  If it was once in a while I wouldn't mind, but I don't want him to do it every week.  I think I will write back, "I'm pretty sure it's not in our plan.  In the past we have discussed it on occasion and it has worked out fine, but we always discussed it first."

Setting boundaries seems to not be as  simple as it looks.

[ForeverDad]

I believe it would be difficult to block him from visiting his children in daycare, however joint custody does not mean the parenting schedule doesn't apply or can be overruled.  Joint custody is for major life decisions such as doctors, hospitals, child therapy, etc and is generally a different realm from the everyday details of scheduled parenting time.  As far as I know, if it is your parenting time then it is Your Time.  He shouldn't be able to just breeze in and decide to take over just because he's available.  (My ex frequently said she adjusted her schedule so she could spend more time with our son.  Sure, no wonder she always complained she was poor - adjusting her schedule meant she chose to work less.

Follow the parenting schedule, that's what it is for.  Yes there will be exceptions now and then, but a pwBPD will use exceptions to weaken the order, making it harder to say No the next time and thus weaken your boundaries.

I told him that would be contrary to the parenting schedule.  He wrote back and said it's in the plan that he can pick them up at day care or school if he gives me advanced notice.  It's NOT in our plan.  But my atty did tell me at one point that legally he could do it.  If it was once in a while I wouldn't mind, but I don't want him to do it every week.  I think I will write back, "I'm pretty sure it's not in our plan.  In the past we have discussed it on occasion and it has worked out fine, but we always discussed it first."

Setting boundaries seems to not be as  simple as it looks.

Could your lawyer be confused?  "If he gives me advance notice" doesn't make sense.  Request, yes, not notice.  Advance notice is generally for vacations, appointments, etc.  Otherwise, he could skip work altogether and just pick up children from daycare 5 minutes after you leave and just keep them all day.  Sure, he'd be poorer but he wouldn't care about that.

Sure, most divorced parents do stray from the order, many orders are worded ambiguously to encourage working together, but then they're both reasonably normal, not high conflict or messed up, can work things out and both agree to minor exceptions without going too far.  In high conflict cases it's not wise to stray from the order.  When I would complain to my lawyer about my ex's actions he eventually saw it started by me being reasonable and flexible and weakening the the order and my boundaries so he started telling me, ":)on't DEVIATE from the order!"

In my case, I knew my possessive ex would try to trample my boundaries of parenting time.  There was about 2-3 hours between the end of school and when I got off work and I knew she would try to insert herself into my time.  We did have ROFR but thinking ahead I specifically excluded daycare from it.  My settlement order in the final decree stated that daycare would be handled the exact same as school, as a recognized substitute for my personal care that wasn't applicable to the ROFR clause which in my case was 4 hours.  Predictably she had multiple run-ins when daycare was picking my son up from school.  Finally the school kicked our son out of kindergarten about 5-6 weeks before the end of the school year.  They were able to do that because the Final Decree a couple months earlier made me the Residential Parent and so they decided not to let him finish the school year there and gave me one day to enroll him in my own school district.  It was kindergarten!  What kid gets kicked out of kindergarten?  Mine did.  If I hadn't been proactive and managed to become RP in the order then they would have had no choice but to suffer with her continuing scenes at their school.

[momtara]

That's terrible, FD.  Seems like a real slippery slope.  Yes, you are correct, I think my lawyer may have been wrong, because I posted on Avvo and it's pretty clear.

So I'm torn between saying "It's fine once in a while" and just saying no.  Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal if it happens once every few months, like it used to, or on a special occasion.  But there is the risk of opening that door to more trampling on the plan.  Hmmm, I dunno.

[momtara]

So I haven't responded to the last email.  He just sent me a new email:  "You don't want me to pick him up; I won't pick him up "

And that's it.

I'm contemplating whether to not respond at all.  Probably won't.

Of course, I have the urge to say, "Well, in the past we were doing it once in a while and we always worked it out, but we collaborated on it."  But I WILL NOT because I know that just loosens the boundary.  But I do feel bad.  Until my exH went off his meds, we would occasionally let him pick up a kid and it was fine.  Plus, he sees them so rarely. 

It actually wouldn't be bad if he picks up our child on occasion and gives notice; I just want him to know that I need notice and I need to be able to say no if we have something planned.

I realize the best thing to do is to say as little as possible.  But these things set precedents and part of me wants him to understand the reasoning. 

Other thing is, this child has been missing his daddy.  It would be good for him to see him.  Maybe just disruptive to me though.  And yes, he will want to do it more often if he does it this time.  Ugh.

[Nope]

I realize the best thing to do is to say as little as possible.  But these things set precedents and part of me wants him to understand the reasoning.

It's very natural to want him to understand your reasoning. You aren't setting boundaries to be a bully. But the problem is that he likely would never be able to understand your reasoning no matter what you say or how carefully you say it. Your reasoning doesn't factor into his emotions and he is only psychologically able to respond emotionally. Especially being off meds.

What is best for the child in question? Once you answer that everything else will just have to fall into place.

[Grey Kitty]

... .and part of me wants him to understand the reasoning.

Wanting this is natural for you. Getting it probably isn't possible. Accepting that you aren't going to get it will be more peaceful for you than trying to explain it to him.

***IF*** your ex wasn't disordered, he would understand the reason for boundaries. As he is, he probably isn't capable of understanding them in the context of you asserting them against him.

This is fundamentally a boundary issue.

Instead you firmly and consistently enforce the boundaries. Your ex is disordered, not stupid. He will realize that you have this boundary, and that he cannot sneak around it, or push through it. (Eventually after a lot of trying, and perhaps an extinction burst) Explaining it won't help him believe you mean it. Only your actions will do that.

The same is true with other boundaries like stepping out of verbal abuse (when you are still in a r/s), or avoiding personal contact where that can happen (more applicable to you). He will figure it out quickly enough.

[Cmjo]

... .and part of me wants him to understand the reasoning.

I know, and agree with the others that reasoning is a waste or your time and energy. And it lets him manipulate you more, as he wont thank you or show any understanding, and you will get even more frustrated. I am trying to learn boundary enforcement too, so I wouldnt reply... .

[momtara]

In the past he has shown a capacity for owning up to his mistakes and understanding the hurt caused by his actions... .at times.  When triggered, he is so angry for days that nothing gets through to him, but I think that later he has regrets.  So far I haven't responded.  But I wonder if later I will wish I'd explained in a brief way.  Oh well, for now I'm letting it alone.

[livednlearned]

In the past he has shown a capacity for owning up to his mistakes and understanding the hurt caused by his actions... .at times.  When triggered, he is so angry for days that nothing gets through to him, but I think that later he has regrets.  So far I haven't responded.  But I wonder if later I will wish I'd explained in a brief way.  Oh well, for now I'm letting it alone.

People with PDs (especially) BPD tend to return to emotional baseline much much more slowly than people who are emotionally stable.

It's part of who they are to be this way, and the triggers aren't always clear to us. It's common for a lot of people who have BPD sufferers in their lives to not have a clue why the intense feelings were triggered, we just know something happened, and we assume it was us. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

Do you think what you're trying to do is minimize shame in him? Is it possible for you that enforcing boundaries = causing him shame? Meaning, you want to set boundaries and are ready for that, but aren't comfortable with the BIFF approach because it's missing an element of support/empathy? There are a lot of really helpful tool that the Stayers discuss in more detail, about how to validate and use SET (support, empathy, truth) to communicate. I wonder if those tools would help you? I know for me, and for many people here, post divorce the SET tools aren't terribly effective, but maybe they will have some impact on your ex.

I'm not a veteran Stayer, so someone with lots of hours over there will be able to guide you better with this, but maybe that's a tool that will help you with your particular situation. It means giving you some room to be supportive, "It's nice that you want to see S, and it's thoughtful that you have clothes for the kids (support), I miss them when I don't see them too (empathy). You will see him on Saturday, so let's stick to the plan and not change the routine (truth)."

He seems almost deferential to you about the kids, even if his text messages can sometimes be abusive. Perhaps you are actually a total boss at boundaries, but are pulling back because you fear increasing his shame? If that's the case, then try experimenting with SET statements to him and see if that gives you a technique that helps you as much as it does him. He may just need to feel that his intentions (and the feelings that go with them) are being validated, which will come across in the Support and Empathy statements.

[Cmjo]

From what Ive read about Momtaras situation, I think she is beyond SET. once she offers the empathy and support he sees it as a cue to be able to get under her skin again. Whenever  I use SET he justs asks when we are getting back together... !

Sometimes  i think my own exBPDh has no sense of time, HOW many times can you go round and round then be abusive then say sorry and start the cycle again. I feel if there is any chance in getting him to go with steady effective treatment, is to be really tough, cruel to be kind. Maybe he will get the message, he needs to for the sake of our kids.

[Grey Kitty]

As someone who is in the staying camp, I found tools like validation and SET to be my third priority in a difficult r/s.

First was boundaries to protect myself (and your kids in your case).

Second was not making this worse--avoiding invalidation (where possible), not JADEing, etc.

I found that lots of validation would be undone by one little invalidating comment, this came before validation.

As for SET, I probably wouldn't apply it here, as it is best used where the "truth" is something enforced by third parties--i.e. if you don't pay your insurance bill, they will cancel your policy. In this case, YOU are enforcing the custody schedule.

[momtara]

Whenever  I use SET he justs asks when we are getting back together... !

Ah, we must have the same exH.

Thanks to all of you for such thoughtful responses.  I still haven't responded to him.  He said he's not taking our son, so the idea that I don't have to see him gives me relief.  I don't know if I want to start another hurtful discussion.

I'm not sure if maintaining these boundaries makes it safer or less safe for my kids, considering he's going to feel abandoned.  In the past I still gave some empathy.  

There's always the possibility that he really is bipolar and doesn't have BPD and could be helped with the right medicine.  In which case maybe some of these techniques maybe should not be applied.  But I think he probably has both, BPD and something else.

What is preventing me from responding is that I don't want it to lead to a worse response from him.  Kind of quitting while I'm ahead.  

Yes, LandL, he wants to feel proud that he has those clothes for our son, so I don't want him to feel undermined and patronized.  I did thank him for the clothes in saying I wanted to stick with the parenting plan.  Validating is a good idea.

[livednlearned]

I'm not sure if maintaining these boundaries makes it safer or less safe for my kids, considering he's going to feel abandoned.  In the past I still gave some empathy.

Yeah, I guess that's why these conversations always come back to boundaries. Like Grey Kitty said -- they come first. Usually, by the time people are on the Family Law board, the abandonment stuff is pretty much a done deal. Somehow you've managed to get a divorce without him feeling abandoned, and without you being split completely black. I don't know much about the other PDs. There's a schizotypal PD that I remember reading about when I was trying to figure out what was going on with my ex. Mine would experience manic moods (sometimes dysphoric, sometimes euphoric) for a string of nights, so I suspected bipolar. But he didn't seem to be as disconnected from reality as the schizo stuff suggested, other than the paranoia and later, the delusions and psychosis, and that could be a function of mania + alcohol. But the PD traits are what make him high conflict. People seem to think he's comorbid. I understand wanting to know -- it makes you feel like you might be able to predict what he's going to do or whether there's a hope for him to get better. Even if you knew the correct dx (and he did), it sounds like he doesn't like taking meds and will ditch therapy, and then lie about it.

There's always the possibility that he really is bipolar and doesn't have BPD and could be helped with the right medicine.  In which case maybe some of these techniques maybe should not be applied.  But I think he probably has both, BPD and something else.

I think sometimes the dx will be bipolar even when the person is being treated for other things. A friend's daughter was dx'd with psychotic depression and given risperodal (sp?) but the dx for the insurance company was bipolar.

What is preventing me from responding is that I don't want it to lead to a worse response from him.  Kind of quitting while I'm ahead.  

Not responding is often an effective response, at least in my experience.

Yes, LandL, he wants to feel proud that he has those clothes for our son, so I don't want him to feel undermined and patronized.  I did thank him for the clothes in saying I wanted to stick with the parenting plan.  Validating is a good idea.

Grey Kitty makes good points about when and how to use some of the techniques like validation and SET, and they may just create more fuzzy boundaries for you. 

[momtara]

You're right - I did manage to divorce him w/o him feeling totally abandoned or w/o him splitting me black.  He kept asking if we'd get back together someday and I said anything's possible.  However, I still continued with the divorce.  There would be steps in the divorce that would throw him into a tailspin, but he'd usually calm down in a few days, often by visitation time.  So if I totally go no contact except for email about the kids, I just don't know what will happen.  As bad as he is, he still sometimes listens to reason, unlike some exes here.  So I have to be careful how I tread.  It's a lot to figure out.  I should try to expedite the parenting coordinator; at least she'd give me some direction.  I am seeing my therapist on Tue as well.  My ex actually used to have me talk to his T from time to time, up until the last court thing.  He wanted to show me how he was getting better.  I gave up that access by doing the court thing, and it was a risk I took.  It was just too hard to know what to say and do all the time, and I was letting too many boundaries slide.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not sure if maintaining these boundaries makes it safer or less safe for my kids, considering he's going to feel abandoned.  In the past I still gave some empathy.

I think that good boundaries improve all relationships, although the transition when you start is usually rocky. Once you are settled into good boundaries, if the other party is behaving well, you won't have to do anything to enforce your boundaries. It only comes up when you are receiving bad behavior.

As you work on them, you will get better at enforcing them.

Your choice to limit contact with him as much as possible to email may well trigger abandonment. You also did it for good reasons--to protect yourself.

When you feel like you are really good at responding to him well and enforcing your boundaries with email contact... .when you know how to handle things, and don't post here with a sense of panic... .then would be a good time to reconsider how much contact you want with your exH.