Anyone have a theory on why most BPD's are attractive?

[maternal]

I was not physically attracted to my ex at the beginning, before the idealization.  He was just a fun dude to hang out with in this new city.

He grew on me, though, and I came to find him very handsome and loved his looks very much.

[Infern0]

The connection thing is bizarre.

Our first kiss was like whoa that blew my mind.  I'd been waiting a while for it and boom.

Pretty much any physical contact was just so intense feeling.

Mine told me once that "it feels like we are one person" and she was right.  Never felt anything like that.

[Indyan]

I've just read your thread... .I can relate to what you feel, really.

But I'm not sure I understand the MC everyone mentions around here.

If we've suffered from MC, why do the same?

I know, it's to protect yourself but... .is there really NO hope whatsoever?

Maybe I haven't reached that stage yet. But there are successful stories out there... .and they've required time and patience, maybe too much of it for me. But although right now I feel I can't take any more of his crap, I try to keep a tiny bit of hope. Although I'm aware that I wouldn't if we didn't have a baby.

And as for the push/pull, the first time he enraged and left I did reach to him (totally shocked), but when it occurred AGAIN 3 months later, I would have left him normally. Except that I was already pregnant  

[fromheeltoheal]

My ex was average looking, but she had "something" about her that men find extremely attractive; that "something" is a personality disorder that makes attaching to someone imperative, since in her head she doesn't exist without at least one attachment, and since fear of abandonment is the ever-present core, might as well have a few attachments in play to lower the odds of being completely abandoned.  We get good at what we practice, and she was extremely good at affecting attachments, and definitely made the best of what she had physically.

You'd think that a coupling of genitals, a physical attachment, would compliment the psychic attachment, makes intuitive sense, but in my case she used sex as a drug to bliss out and soothe for a while, or as a manipulation tool to attempt control; there was a disconnect between the mental and the physical for her, probably why I didn't get in deeper than I did, maybe why I'm still alive.

[Infern0]

I was not physically attracted to my ex at the beginning, before the idealization.  He was just a fun dude to hang out with in this new city.

He grew on me, though, and I came to find him very handsome and loved his looks very much.

It's seems quite common that.

Same with me, I feel bad about this but I actually used to mock mine after the first time we had met. I can be a bit of a jerk myself around certain people but yeah I used to say her legs were gross etc (not really understanding the eating disorder) my friends were like you should screw her and I was like nah I'd probably break her plus I bet she has serious issues (listen to yourself sometimes)

But the nice guy part of me thought she seemed lonely and sad,  what the hell I'll take her to the movies etc (she kept asking to hang out with me) and tell her some lame jokes and cheer her up.  If I'm being honest I also did this because I knew it would wind people at work up and I do love a bit of drama.

Anyway you know how it goes,  idealisation,  I swallowed it hook line and sinker and came out with "major issues" myself.

[Indyan]

The connection thing is bizarre.

Our first kiss was like whoa that blew my mind.  I'd been waiting a while for it and boom.

Pretty much any physical contact was just so intense feeling.

Mine told me once that "it feels like we are one person" and she was right.  Never felt anything like that.

Same here. We used to feel drunk... .He's always said (even when I was painted black) that sex together was "perfect" (his words), that our kisses were amazing.

So... .

What I wonder is this:

Could it be that this special connection exists with ALL of their partners?

Or is it just WITH US because we obviously have a special sensitivity, just like theirs?

[Indyan]

but yeah I used to say her legs were gross etc (not really understanding the eating disorder) my friends were like you should screw her and I was like nah I'd probably break her plus I bet she has serious issues (listen to yourself sometimes)

LOOL 

[Infern0]

but yeah I used to say her legs were gross etc (not really understanding the eating disorder) my friends were like you should screw her and I was like nah I'd probably break her plus I bet she has serious issues (listen to yourself sometimes)

LOOL 

I actually was going through some old texts the other day and found that I'd said that to my mate about 2 weeks before FOG started.  I admit I had my first real laugh for like 6 months

[fred6]

The only difference is that mine wasn't very into sex. At least with me she wasn't.

They tend to spot people'a weak spots. Maybe you weren't that into sex ie not a major hook for you? I know sex is my Achilles heel. I have a really high sex drive and also suffer from this stupid man thing to perform. Really shallow of me I know. I am working on it. If fact I worked on it while with her. When i realised that that's one big area she has her hooks in me I consciously made an effort to desensitise myself from my obsession, whenever having sex focus on my pleasure primarily (she didn't like that) and eventually it  helped me to detach.

No, I don't think that's it. I have a pretty healthy sex drive myself, but half the time, I got turned down. I'm tending to think she used it as a means to control me somehow. Or maybe sex really does mean nothing to her. But that doesn't explain her promiscuous behavior.

[freedom33]

Could it be that this special connection exists with ALL of their partners?

Or is it just WITH US because we obviously have a special sensitivity, just like theirs?

That is a good question that got me thinking. If I judge by the stories that she told me about her exes and the out of the top efforts and love gestures she has made for a lot of them I 'd say that she seemed to feel very strongly with quite a few. She just needs to attach as someone earlier said and when they do they seem to feel very very strongly. On the other hand I got the impression that not all her exes where that specially connected to her. Some of them simply had some fun with her and left her, others used her for money, others did fall crazy for her like I did. I suppose on our side it comes down to how prone is one to fall for such intense emotions. My observations is that if you have been starved emotionally in your childhood you are more likely to feel a very special connection with a pwBPD. The magic that one never had, a new eden is now so amply offered (at the beginning) and then taken away. My experience with her definetely had a spiritual flavour to it. Paradise lost

[shellbent]

Same here. We used to feel drunk... .He's always said (even when I was painted black) that sex together was "perfect" (his words), that our kisses were amazing.

So... .

What I wonder is this:

Could it be that this special connection exists with ALL of their partners?

Or is it just WITH US because we obviously have a special sensitivity, just like theirs?

This is something I would also like to know. She told me in the start that just by looking at her I gave her an electric shock, then the touches on the hand stung her. Then the first kiss was something I still crave, and remember very clearly. I believed it was the same feeling for both of us.

So she told me she has not felt this in over 5 years. That was when she met her ex. So I can't know for sure if she feels this with anyone that meets her criteria, or does it take a special person.

Maybe anyone they are attracted to at the time will make them feel that way?

Probably anyone they feel worthy of their attention that will reciprocate, they might feel special.

But we both had something so weird going on I can't even explain, so I am going to continue believing it was only that crazy good with me because we are somewhat similar. (were in tune)

The only problem is she will not remember this I don't think. It is not what she needs to survive. As of right now it is locked up somewhere in the garage of all her hidden emotions and blocked memories.  

[freedom33]

I have a pretty healthy sex drive myself, but half the time, I got turned down. I'm tending to think she used it as a means to control me somehow.

Same thing here. At the beginning lots of it. Then withholding as an attempt to control. Then I was giving up on it, she 'd lose her control grip on me and she would come back offering so more etc etc... .

[fred6]

I have a pretty healthy sex drive myself, but half the time, I got turned down. I'm tending to think she used it as a means to control me somehow.

Same thing here. At the beginning lots of it. Then withholding as an attempt to control. Then I was giving up on it, she 'd lose her control grip on me and she would come back offering so more etc etc... .

It kind of led to a downward spiral in my case. She never initiated or participated in sex. She just kind of laid there. Don't get me wrong, she did enjoy it sometimes. But for the most part she wasn't too concerned about sex. Maybe it was me or maybe it wasn't, I don't know. After a while I wasn't even concerned about her side of it. I was just getting my piece and getting it over with as quickly as possible.

[drummerboy]

I don't think that withholding sex when a relationship hits the rocks is a purely BPD thing. I think that can happen in all relationships.

Mine never withheld sex, we even had great sex a few hours before we said our last goodbyes which has made the whole letting go thing so much harder.

I have a pretty healthy sex drive myself, but half the time, I got turned down. I'm tending to think she used it as a means to control me somehow.

Same thing here. At the beginning lots of it. Then withholding as an attempt to control. Then I was giving up on it, she 'd lose her control grip on me and she would come back offering so more etc etc... .

[Loveofhislife]

Could it be that this special connection exists with ALL of their partners?

Or is it just WITH US because we obviously have a special sensitivity, just like theirs?

I suppose on our side it comes down to how prone is one to fall for such intense emotions. My observations is that if you have been starved emotionally in your childhood you are more likely to feel a very special connection with a pwBPD. The magic that one never had, a new eden is now so amply offered (at the beginning) and then taken away. My experience with her definetely had a spiritual flavour to it. Paradise lost

So beautiful, Freedom--and so accurate.

[freedom33]

I don't think that withholding sex when a relationship hits the rocks is a purely BPD thing. I think that can happen in all relationships.

Mine never withheld sex, we even had great sex a few hours before we said our last goodbyes which has made the whole letting go thing so much harder.

I have a pretty healthy sex drive myself, but half the time, I got turned down. I'm tending to think she used it as a means to control me somehow.

Same thing here. At the beginning lots of it. Then withholding as an attempt to control. Then I was giving up on it, she 'd lose her control grip on me and she would come back offering so more etc etc... .

Good point. It does happen in regular rs too to genuinely not wanting to have sex (and also lucky guy you were never withheld sex!). However with the pwBPD the rs hits the rocks in their minds only and then they act in this way in order to control you and manipulate you which only leaves you dumbfounded. I remember, during the honeymoon when everything was still fine, clearly feeling that her desire during sex most times (aside 3-4 memorable times) was not to connect but a power game, means to control and domination. I told her after sex once that 'where power is, love is not'. Didn't do much.

[Loveofhislife]

I don't think that withholding sex when a relationship hits the rocks is a purely BPD thing. I think that can happen in all relationships.

Mine never withheld sex, we even had great sex a few hours before we said our last goodbyes which has made the whole letting go thing so much harder.

I have a pretty healthy sex drive myself, but half the time, I got turned down. I'm tending to think she used it as a means to control me somehow.

Same thing here. At the beginning lots of it. Then withholding as an attempt to control. Then I was giving up on it, she 'd lose her control grip on me and she would come back offering so more etc etc... .

I remember, during the honeymoon when everything was still fine, clearly feeling that her desire during sex most times (aside 3-4 memorable times) was not to connect but a power game, means to control and domination. I told her after sex once that 'where power is, love is not'. Didn't do much.

I could get more graphic but suffice it to say that I told him many times, "if you can give up the power struggle and your need to perform and control, you will enjoy this much more... ."

[myself]

Some of it was natural. Some of it was mirroring. Some of it was masks.

They're attractive because that's what they wanted us to see.

And it's what we wanted to see. Creating the illusions together.

[Loveofhislife]

Some of it was natural. Some of it was mirroring. Some of it was masks.

They're attractive because that's what they wanted us to see.

And it's what we wanted to see. Creating the illusions together.

Amen!

[fred6]

Good point. It does happen in regular rs too to genuinely not wanting to have sex (and also lucky guy you were never withheld sex!). However with the pwBPD the rs hits the rocks in their minds only and then they act in this way in order to control you and manipulate you which only leaves you dumbfounded. I remember, during the honeymoon when everything was still fine, clearly feeling that her desire during sex most times (aside 3-4 memorable times) was not to connect but a power game, means to control and domination. I told her after sex once that 'where power is, love is not'. Didn't do much.

Yeah, I think you are correct again. For 6 months to a year sex with mine wasn't bad. However, there was a point in time where it started getting less and less. The relationship itself seemed to be going pretty good, but the sex and intimacy was not maturing, it was regressing. I suspect that is the point where she felt that she was getting too close to me. In her mind, less sex and intimacy equaled not being as vulnerable to me hurting her. But in the end, I was the vulnerable one and she's the one that did the hurting to me.

[Indyan]

But we both had something so weird going on I can't even explain, so I am going to continue believing it was only that crazy good with me because we are somewhat similar. (were in tune)

Yes, similar in a way.

I think I'm a pretty intense/sensitive/emotionnal person myself, and people have told me, and I used to find people LESS intense I dare say, until I met him.

[Indyan]

After a while I wasn't even concerned about her side of it. I was just getting my piece and getting it over with as quickly as possible.

Yuck 

[fred6]

After a while I wasn't even concerned about her side of it. I was just getting my piece and getting it over with as quickly as possible.

Yuck 

Not really yuck. I still wanted her, liked her, and thought she was attractive to me. This was way before I knew about BPD. When she would let me have sex, she just seemed so detached. After a while it was only about a physical release for me.Things were not like this for the first year to year and a half. It just got to the point that it wasn't pleasant and only physical for me. I figured that she just had issued regarding sex and that we would somehow work it out. Well she worked it out alright, just with someone else who will get the same treatment eventually.

[Pou]

I've read it countless times, here, other places. My experience too.

But the suspected causes of the disorder have little to do with attractiveness. FOO, genetics... w/e

imo, it's not that most BPD's are attractive, it's that the symptoms are much more pronounced in an attractive person. Why? Cause they can easily bounce to the next supply. They get hit on/flirted with often, and generally feel as though they have options. Options allow for confidence and freedom, freedom to embrace their more destructive sides cause they have the confidence to know there will always be the next supply around the corner. It's allows full expression of the disorder.

Someone whose less attractive, or not attractive, lacks that confidence, lacks those options. And perhaps, is more motivated to suppress destructive tendencies.

I don't know, it's the only thing I can come up with. Thoughts?

tim_tom, hope i am not too late to the thread… I didn't get a chance to read through all the threads, so my opinion may have been expressed by others already.  My thoughts for the reason that "nons think BPD/NPD are attractive" is that:

1) Perhaps that PDs are skillful in seek out attention from the opposite sex to satisfy their need for attention, therefore they are generally "appeared" to be more attractive through their make up, fashion, charm and demeanor at first when you getting to know them.

2) Perhaps that they just appeared to be more attractive to only Nons, because we have certain psychological profile that make us more attractive to them, hence we think they are more attractive.

3) Perhaps PDs have certain unassuming qualities at the beginning that can be mixed up with general perceptions as being vulnerable and good characteristics for a long term relationship.  For example, my uNPDw was distant most of the time and only on very rare occasion she turns on her "charm" to pretend she care during our courting phase.  Now I can distinguish the fake tone and it gives me the goose bumps when I hear she uses them.  As oppose to before married, I used to think, hey… she is not too expressive, that is good for me, that means many other relationships may have not worked for her because she was misunderstood (WRONG!).  I for one, tend to take all her negatives and spun them into positives in my head and that made her more attractive in my eyes (beauty is in the eyes of beholder).

Just my 2cents.

[goldylamont]

You are saying that you liked him before you started dating. Is that such a special thing to happen for you? Weren't there any other guys that you also liked before you dated them? Why aren't they in that special category?  

The experience was 'very special' for all of us. We are trying to understand in this part of the forum what that specialness was, what it meant and how it impacted us to learn and get a better handle of things in the future.

freedom33 you bring up some good points in this thread. for my r/s with uBPDxgf i think my approach/attraction was in a way opposite from your experience. but it's really interesting seeing how it can occur coming from the other direction.

like when you say you weren't overly attracted to your ex when you first met, but that this grew over time and you feel like intermittent reinforcement solidified the attachment. for me, it was kind of the opposite--i was very (very) attracted to my ex from the first time i saw her. and while i think the worst of the intermittent reinforcement didn't affect things until years into the r/s, if anything this is what pushed me away and made me retreat. it was confusing to me, to the point during the last year i'd keep a little log book of things i did for her and the r/s just so that i didn't think i was crazy for thinking i was earnestly trying. i've spoken about it before, but i feel that having such a strong initial attraction to my ex was what bonded me--i could do without a lot of the 'intensity'. at the time i was very non-committal in r/s so having that strong physical attraction it was easier for me to commit. and, to be honest, it's hard for me to say that the 'love' part of the r/s was more intense, perhaps it was considering we spent a lot of time together. but i never felt overloaded with love in this r/s, and i never felt under-loved or that there was no intensity in r/s i've had with healthy women. if i look back in the r/s and think about intensity the only thing i think about are weirdly intense anger, or jealousy--which always confused me and pushed me away. and, while it still occurred throughout the r/s, these bad episodes actually decreased over time, until the last 6 months or so before breaking up.

when i met my ex for the first time i was definitely smitten. we exchanged info and met up about a week later and got a drink. after talking we found out we both loved a particular artist, and it just so happened that a buddy of mine had a signed poster from this deceased musician in my studio. so, i'm like "bingo!" and get her to come back to the studio with me to show her the poster. it was great. and when we got there we started talking about the sound insulated vocal booth. i told her i used it as my scream box because i was embarrassed of anyone hearing me practice vocals (still am  ). she told me she often wished she could scream a lot. so i told her to go inside and go at it, it's fun. she was nervous so i went in myself with her outside and i just screamed like a banshee. it was hilarious. finally she did it too and we had a good laugh... .well, after this one date, i never heard from her again for years. she never responded to my triple reach--one call, one text, and last ditch, one MySpace.com message (Yeah i said MYSPACE Fool!  )). so i let it go. i kind of missed her but no hard feelings we'd only gone on one date. anyways, 3 years later, completely unannounced she just pops up at a show i was performing at. when i started my band i added all the email addresses i had in my PALM PILOT (yes i said PALM PILOT!) at the time and i guess she was on it. so she'd been getting our emails for shows for like 2 years and i didn't even realize it. i saw her at that show and the rest is history. so for me there's a lot of romance and attraction and finally-getting-the-girl that makes me smile about how our r/s started. about 6 months in when we committed and started getting serious, i remember both of us laughing about how neither of us ever thought we'd ever end up together, but glad we did. who'da thunk?

so, there was a lot of real history and uniqueness beyond BPD/attractiveness/int. reinforcement that made it so intriguing, and devastating to part. perhaps this may be closer to how Indyan felt about her ex? in any case it's not painful for me to tell the story of how we met. i still really enjoy it. to me it's one of the things that will always feel real for me.

[freedom33]

Hi Goldy,

I was also impressed with my ex too. But not becayse she was so physically attractive but because there was a connection there. Again I am not discarding the realness of the relatioship. But I do think the abuse plays a role in the trauma bonding and the obsession - that is what I am saying above. And this is what a rs with a BPD amounts to. Trauma bonding and obsession. And for that special bonding you need intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment.

But there was a very real connection between us to start with. We also had lots of common interests. We both play music. We both love camping and long walks in the wilderness. Coincidentally, we are both studying the same subject part time on the side. In fact that's how we started talking - We were also working at the same company. We had a similar type of humour. She 'd make me laugh a lot and I 'd make her laugh too. Great chemistry in bed. We are both intense and sex was electric (at least for me). We both had a kind of fck all attitute and don't care what people around us would say about crazy things we 'd do when we went out together. For our first date I took her to a gig that she loved and we ended up feeling like 5 year olds. I never felt this way before with anyone.  We had lots fun together and in many ways we were kind of made for each other. These common interests above are not mirroring. I have checked that she liked those things before she met me. Perhaps that is why she got stuck with me and insisted so much. Maybe with me she didn't have to pretend so much. I don't know. I was also smitten by her but just not with her looks it took a few dates for my feelings to come out but when they did man was I in love.

Now what made the whole thing super 'special' was the intermittent abuse combined with the above. This is what creates the out of this world obsession. Otherwise it would have been another 'and they lived hapilly ever after' story or it would have naturally faded away. Abuse and betrayal is key in all this.

[Indyan]

Otherwise it would have been another 'and they lived hapilly ever after' story or it would have naturally faded away. Abuse and betrayal is key in all this.

Why fade?

I disagree, as far as I'm concerned.

The abuse and betrayal was precisely what pushed me away further and further.

However, the mystery around BPD kept me wanting to understand what the hell was going on, and I found out eventually. Even today, and God knows I'm fed up with the abuse, I'm still hoping a tiny bit. Why ? Because I believe he might get better with T, maybe... .

If there were no BPD, just a violent and abusive guy, I'dve run away ages ago.

[freedom33]

Otherwise it would have been another 'and they lived hapilly ever after' story or it would have naturally faded away. Abuse and betrayal is key in all this.

Why fade?

I disagree, as far as I'm concerned.

The abuse and betrayal was precisely what pushed me away further and further.

However, the mystery around BPD kept me wanting to understand what the hell was going on, and I found out eventually. Even today, and God knows I'm fed up with the abuse, I'm still hoping a tiny bit. Why ? Because I believe he might get better with T, maybe... .

If there were no BPD, just a violent and abusive guy, I'dve run away ages ago.

The key word in the abuse is the intermittency. This is what keeps us hooked up, this is the mystery, this is why we are trying to understand what the hell is going on. Because we get the good bits in between. If it was all bad we would have been long gone. Consistently bad --> nothing to understand, it's just bad. Have a read about how reintermittent reinforcement and trauma bonding works. It can be helpful.

[goldylamont]

Hi Goldy,

I was also impressed with my ex too. But not becayse she was so physically attractive but because there was a connection there. Again I am not discarding the realness of the relatioship. But I do think the abuse plays a role in the trauma bonding and the obsession - that is what I am saying above. And this is what a rs with a BPD amounts to. Trauma bonding and obsession. And for that special bonding you need intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment.

But there was a very real connection between us to start with. We also had lots of common interests. We both play music. We both love camping and long walks in the wilderness. Coincidentally, we are both studying the same subject part time on the side. In fact that's how we started talking - We were also working at the same company. We had a similar type of humour. She 'd make me laugh a lot and I 'd make her laugh too. Great chemistry in bed. We are both intense and sex was electric (at least for me). We both had a kind of fck all attitute and don't care what people around us would say about crazy things we 'd do when we went out together. For our first date I took her to a gig that she loved and we ended up feeling like 5 year olds. I never felt this way before with anyone.  We had lots fun together and in many ways we were kind of made for each other. These common interests above are not mirroring. I have checked that she liked those things before she met me. Perhaps that is why she got stuck with me and insisted so much. Maybe with me she didn't have to pretend so much. I don't know. I was also smitten by her but just not with her looks it took a few dates for my feelings to come out but when they did man was I in love.

Now what made the whole thing super 'special' was the intermittent abuse combined with the above. This is what creates the out of this world obsession. Otherwise it would have been another 'and they lived hapilly ever after' story or it would have naturally faded away. Abuse and betrayal is key in all this.

thanks for sharing. this is a great story.

i understand how the intermittent abuse seemed to increase the attachment in your experience. when i'm really honest with myself though, i just don't think this was it for me. i just experienced it different. like you i was equally attracted to my ex's personality, as well as her physicality. we would constantly make each other laugh. for me whenever i sensed she was punishing me unjustly or anything resembling intermittent abuse (although i would have been unaware of it as a concept), i think this just pushed me away. seeded doubt in me about if our r/s could work. i broke up with her twice actually. once at the 2 year mark we broke up, but then got back together after about 2 weeks. i made some promises (now i see they were boundaries) to myself regarding my needs going forward. i can't remember it all exactly but i know i had to see some improvement with her jealousies... .some other things i can't recall. and, when we got back together, it wasn't a short lived re-idealization. things did get measurably better. i think she tried her hardest and i also became less of a trigger to her. then we moved in together--i was nervous as hell as i'd never lived with a woman. well, instead of engulfment i actually became happier after moving in with her and i think this made her feel more secure in the r/s.

things could have been drastically different for her, but i feel i stayed in the r/s because we still had room to grow. we had terrible moments but the trajectory was moving towards things being better, until it wasn't. and that's when i 'left'.

there were some terrible moments that occurred in our r/s for sure. however for me i saw the worst behavior from her after our final break. she was really in a much worse place emotionally and took it out on me and her friends/boyfriends than i'd seen in all the four years knowing her. once i saw her playing games, actually trying to deceive me or not caring, then turning on the sweetness and acting like she cared--this pushed me away, and finally into NC. all of the deal breaker behaviors, that i was aware of, occurred after we broke up this second time. i did stick around and received a hefty dose of emotional abuse, but i never felt closer to her because of this and it didn't increase my desire to want to be with her. instead it frightened the hell out of my because i knew everything i was seeing meant we couldn't be together. something i desperately didn't want to happen. her being hot/cold wasn't really a dynamic that worked to keep me attached, it forced me to cut her out of my life.

[goldylamont]

there is a quote, and i forget who said it, but in essence it says "you judge a person's character by how they behave in the toughest of times. not how they are when everything is good." i've always held my r/s to this standard.

i get what you're saying that because there was positive moments mixed in with the bad stuff that this was a compelling reason to try and make the r/s work. i identify with this. but i simply don't feel that it drew me in any deeper. when things were most 'intermittent' i didn't even trust the good moments we had, i was still licking my wounds... .