mutual restraining orders

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

In August, I had went to my local police department about my ex's inappropriate behavior towards me spanning a four year period, unsure how to handle the situation as she was still contacting my friends and accusing me of stalking her two years after we'd split, citing random internet comments not actually authored by me as proof. I was told it was nothing to take lightly, that she is well known to police for a variety of reasons, and to apply for a restraining order. To back up all of my claims, I brought the police a 75-page binder featuring mostly facebook and text message screencaps that both clearly demonstrated we had a very strange romantic relationship, and that this girl was unstable (assaults, long apologetic rants at 2am... .etc... .). I'm 21, she's 19, I've been dealing with this girl since my senior year of high school.

The hearing was two days ago and it was a very mixed bag.

Her father tagged along. I had voiced concerns about this in previous threads, with police, and with friends. He's a prestigious university professor and given how many issues this girl's had with the police, I was worried he'd do everything in his power to protect his daughter's reputation. The judge admitted he quickly skimmed through the affidavit and found no grounds for a restraining order. I have a picture of the affidavit saved and there's no possible way you could look at it and think "yep this girl's totally not a threat to this guy's safety and well-being." I simply pointed to the two binders I had brought in with me (copies of the binder I mentioned above) and said that there's more than enough in the evidence I'd brought to change that decision. I was told I was not allowed to use this evidence, as I had only brought two copies instead of three.

My ex's father spoke for her (for obvious reasons) and confessed he was confused as to why this was all happening in the first place. He argued that the Facebook messages I'd sent him earlier in the year telling him I was uncomfortable with his daughter's behavior was "stalking" - even after the police had told me it was not wrong of me to send these messages in the first place. My ex and her father brought in a lone sheet of paper as "evidence" against me - a public forum online where people had taken to bash my ex. 80% of comments were not actually written by me. The judge went over this lone sheet of paper in detail, and admitted he "didn't understand" the internet, but everything he saw on the piece of paper was "horrible." The majority of people calling my ex names and going into detail about their bedroom experiences with her weren't actually me. The judge didn't care, and still continued on about how the internet is horrible.

I sarcastically added in "and so were the 2am apologies, the 5am phone calls to my mom's house, the two assaults, the times she'd claim I was stalking her when I'd catch her cheating on me, the infinite amount of times she told me her father would abuse her, the endless worrying about her personality disorder" - To my surprise, this actually resonated with the judge, and he granted a mutual restraining order. I knew from my brief time spent on Google not to accept anything "mutual", but at the same time knew I could probably rectify it at a later date.

My ex tried to speak for herself, saying my evidence (which she hadn't even seen, but somehow she knew what I had) was simply me creating fake facebook profiles based on my ex, and having conversations with myself. For four years. Not only are these some extreme mental gymnastics, facebook has had GPS tracking since 2009, and my ex rarely turned this feature off. All of her messages could be traced to either her residence at the time each message was sent, or a family member's house. Her dad made her stop before she could elaborate further.

Unfortunately, the judge put a social media clause into the order, stating we can't talk about each other on social media, and if one of us does, we go to jail. No less than three minutes prior, the judge admitted he did not understand the internet. Yet now he's governing how we can use it. But still, in theory, it's fine. I understand what he was trying to do.

Except half of the reason I applied for a restraining order was because this girl was purposely looking up random 16 month old negative comments about her, that weren't actually authored by me, accusing me of being the author, and claiming I'm stalking her.

And now there is an order in place that not only allows her to continue to do that, but get me sent to jail because nobody over the age of 30 understands how the internet works and "I think all these comments are him" has already held up in court once this week. I have somewhat of an online presence, and if someone had some sort of strange vendetta against me, less than ten seconds of keystrokes and I go to jail. Not to mention there's nothing stopping my ex from impersonating me basically whenever she wants and then calling the cops. I have come to terms with the fact that I'm going to jail sometime in the next 365 days.

I've brought this up with the police. They too are concerned that this will be exploited, considering this is basically why I came to the police in the first place, and now this order has left the door wide open for my ex to continue the exact behavior that caused me to finally package everything up and talk to the cops to begin with.

TLDR:

>ex texts my friend asking where I live and spends an entire summer responding to 16 month old comments on some tabloid blog people don't even read

>go to police

>hey guys, my ex from like two years ago is digging up random comments that I didn't even write about her and trying to claim it's me stalking her

>also here's our entire previous history

>go get a restraining order, we looked her up on the database and read through your document; she's nuts

>apply for restraining order

>almost gets spun around on me until I make the judge consider that I might actually be telling the truth

>mutual order passed instead

>a clause in the order allows my ex to report random internet comments that she doesn't like to the police and get me arrested

>cops are like "yo you need to fight this, that's not cool"

Alright BPDF, how do I fight this?

[.cup.car]

In August, I had went to my local police department about my ex's inappropriate behavior towards me spanning a four year period, unsure how to handle the situation as she was still contacting my friends and accusing me of stalking her two years after we'd split, citing random internet comments not actually authored by me as proof. I was told it was nothing to take lightly, that she is well known to police for a variety of reasons, and to apply for a restraining order. To back up all of my claims, I brought the police a 75-page binder featuring mostly facebook and text message screencaps that both clearly demonstrated we had a very strange romantic relationship, and that this girl was unstable (assaults, long apologetic rants at 2am... .etc... .). I'm 21, she's 19, I've been dealing with this girl since my senior year of high school.

The hearing was two days ago and it was a very mixed bag.

Her father tagged along. I had voiced concerns about this in previous threads, with police, and with friends. He's a prestigious university professor and given how many issues this girl's had with the police, I was worried he'd do everything in his power to protect his daughter's reputation. The judge admitted he quickly skimmed through the affidavit and found no grounds for a restraining order. I have a picture of the affidavit saved and there's no possible way you could look at it and think "yep this girl's totally not a threat to this guy's safety and well-being." I simply pointed to the two binders I had brought in with me (copies of the binder I mentioned above) and said that there's more than enough in the evidence I'd brought to change that decision. I was told I was not allowed to use this evidence, as I had only brought two copies instead of three.

My ex's father spoke for her (for obvious reasons) and confessed he was confused as to why this was all happening in the first place. He argued that the Facebook messages I'd sent him earlier in the year telling him I was uncomfortable with his daughter's behavior was "stalking" - even after the police had told me it was not wrong of me to send these messages in the first place. My ex and her father brought in a lone sheet of paper as "evidence" against me - a public forum online where people had taken to bash my ex. 80% of comments were not actually written by me. The judge went over this lone sheet of paper in detail, and admitted he "didn't understand" the internet, but everything he saw on the piece of paper was "horrible." The majority of people calling my ex names and going into detail about their bedroom experiences with her weren't actually me. The judge didn't care, and still continued on about how the internet is horrible.

I sarcastically added in "and so were the 2am apologies, the 5am phone calls to my mom's house, the two assaults, the times she'd claim I was stalking her when I'd catch her cheating on me, the infinite amount of times she told me her father would abuse her, the endless worrying about her personality disorder" - To my surprise, this actually resonated with the judge, and he granted a mutual restraining order. I knew from my brief time spent on Google not to accept anything "mutual", but at the same time knew I could probably rectify it at a later date.

My ex tried to speak for herself, saying my evidence (which she hadn't even seen, but somehow she knew what I had) was simply me creating fake facebook profiles based on my ex, and having conversations with myself. For four years. Not only are these some extreme mental gymnastics, facebook has had GPS tracking since 2009, and my ex rarely turned this feature off. All of her messages could be traced to either her residence at the time each message was sent, or a family member's house. Her dad made her stop before she could elaborate further.

Unfortunately, the judge put a social media clause into the order, stating we can't talk about each other on social media, and if one of us does, we go to jail. No less than three minutes prior, the judge admitted he did not understand the internet. Yet now he's governing how we can use it. But still, in theory, it's fine. I understand what he was trying to do.

Except half of the reason I applied for a restraining order was because this girl was purposely looking up random 16 month old negative comments about her, that weren't actually authored by me, accusing me of being the author, and claiming I'm stalking her.

And now there is an order in place that not only allows her to continue to do that, but get me sent to jail because nobody over the age of 30 understands how the internet works and "I think all these comments are him" has already held up in court once this week. I have somewhat of an online presence, and if someone had some sort of strange vendetta against me, less than ten seconds of keystrokes and I go to jail. Not to mention there's nothing stopping my ex from impersonating me basically whenever she wants and then calling the cops. I have come to terms with the fact that I'm going to jail sometime in the next 365 days.

I've brought this up with the police. They too are concerned that this will be exploited, considering this is basically why I came to the police in the first place, and now this order has left the door wide open for my ex to continue the exact behavior that caused me to finally package everything up and talk to the cops to begin with.

TLDR:

>ex texts my friend asking where I live and spends an entire summer responding to 16 month old comments on some tabloid blog people don't even read

>go to police

>hey guys, my ex from like two years ago is digging up random comments that I didn't even write about her and trying to claim it's me stalking her

>also here's our entire previous history

>go get a restraining order, we looked her up on the database and read through your document; she's nuts

>apply for restraining order

>almost gets spun around on me until I make the judge consider that I might actually be telling the truth

>mutual order passed instead

>a clause in the order allows my ex to report random internet comments that she doesn't like to the police and get me arrested

>cops are like "yo you need to fight this, that's not cool"

Alright BPDF, how do I fight this?

[ForeverDad]

a clause in the order allows my ex to report random internet comments that she doesn't like to the police and get me arrested

Since it is a mutual order, does it also allow you to report random internet comments that you don't like to the police and get her arrested?

Also, I would restrict your posts about her during the duration of this order.  For example, a few of our boards here, this Family Law board for example, are restricted to members who have logged in.  Stick to the boards that aren't be indexed by the searchbots.

[Matt]

Can you take down your Facebook page entirely - just quit Facebook for now?

Or... .can you remove all references to her from your Facebook, Twitter, and whatever else?

If the police come, tell them, "I have not posted anything about her since the court order was issued." - do you think that would work?

What about talking to a criminal defense attorney - not to give him a retainer, but just to get his advice about how to avoid being arrested?

I did that after my wife accused me of assault.  He was very clear:  ":)on't be alone with her, ever, without a non-family adult third party present."  I followed his advice and wasn't arrested again (and the charges against me were dropped when it was proved she had lied).

[.cup.car]

Since it is a mutual order, does it also allow you to report random internet comments that you don't like to the police and get her arrested?

I'm a bit of an internet personality, and receive anonymous negative comments daily - indeed the current order makes it incredibly easy for me to contact police and accuse my ex of being the author of these endless comments. The only difference is, I don't actually plan to do this, whereas this was the exact behavior my ex had been exhibiting that caused me to talk to police and apply for an RO in the first place.

Can you take down your Facebook page entirely - just quit Facebook for now? Or... .can you remove all references to her from your Facebook, Twitter, and whatever else?

If the police come, tell them, "I have not posted anything about her since the court order was issued." - do you think that would work? What about talking to a criminal defense attorney - not to give him a retainer, but just to get his advice about how to avoid being arrested?

Unfortunately for the older crowd, all this social media crap is here to stay and opting to abandon it is a little extremist, comparable to how heavy metal was supposedly corrupting youth in the 80's. I'm 21, I've grown up with the internet my whole life - dropping out because of one pwBPD's behavior is a bit silly. There are no direct references to us on Facebook or Twitter aside from common passive aggressive jabs at each other. My personal blog is a whole other story, but it is so far off the beaten path that you'd literally have to stalk me to find it, and the posts about this situation are outnumbered by posts about entirely different topics or pictures of cars.

A very kind lady advised me about how the cops would deal with the matter if it WERE to get to the point where one of us was confronted by police - the police would have to investigate whether the claims could be proven. My fears are almost totally eliminated because if my ex WERE to continue with her false allegations and claim random comments were authored by myself, and begin a pattern of false allegation/no proof/investigation yielded no results, the police would eventually pick up on the pattern and tell her to STFU, basically proving what I had been saying all along to them.

I'm cool with this, but there's always a chance it'll be an officer who's just old enough to not quite "get" the internet and take her word for it. Sounds a bit extreme, but the judge who passed the order "took her word for it" and now we're here.

At the end of the day I am still upset that I was not allowed to present my evidence in court. It would have drastically changed the judges decision, and I'm currently waiting to hear back from a few lawyers interested in helping out.

A mutual order implies both parties were at fault. I do not understand how voicing my displeasure with someone over the internet is on par with two assaults, unwanted apologies, being expected to solve a host of personal issues that I still struggle to understand, 5am phone calls to my mom's house asking where I live, and 35+ pages of "my daddy hits me please help you're the only one I trust XD."

[Take2]

I'm not sure why you think all older people don't get the internet.  I think Facebook has more users over 30 or 40 than any other age group.  Unless you are making your living by writing on whatever social media outlet you are on, then get off of it until this is all gone.  That's not giving up the internet.  There's a HUGE internet and plenty more websites to go to.   Unless you need this income, if there is any income, then let go of your own ego if you don't want to be framed and/or arrested. 

[KateCat]

nobody over the age of 30 understands how the internet works

Uh oh, we're all in trouble then, as the U.S. Supreme Court has an important case on threats delivered by social media on its upcoming calendar.

I think Take2 has a great question. Can you (financially) afford to let this go and change your online habits for a time?

[.cup.car]

I'm not sure why you think all older people don't get the internet.  I think Facebook has more users over 30 or 40 than any other age group.  Unless you are making your living by writing on whatever social media outlet you are on, then get off of it until this is all gone.  That's not giving up the internet.  There's a HUGE internet and plenty more websites to go to.   Unless you need this income, if there is any income, then let go of your own ego if you don't want to be framed and/or arrested.  

Yes, I can financially afford to let this go for a time. I'm not a writer or YouTuber, I'll say that much.

I'm worried because when I google "mutual restraining orders", I get results such as:

Mutual restraining orders may diminish the effectiveness of enforcement by creating confusion among law enforcement officials. When a mutual restraining order is issued after one person petitions for a restraining order against the other, that person's confidence in the fairness of the justice system may be lost, generating feelings of resentment or helplessness.

and

If a mutual order is issued against you, the petitioner, you may be criminally prosecuted for violating the order. Your batterer could trick you into violating the order so that the police will arrest you and charge you with a crime.

Which is some of the exact behavior this girl displayed to make me go to the police and eventually the courts in the first place. And being allowed to actually show my evidence would most likely change the judge's outcome. You can't ignore four years worth of messages that drastically alter the narrative her father supplied.

[KateCat]

You went to a tremendous effort in your court case, and it makes sense to feel that you did not get your day in court. But I think there may be wisdom in the judge's ruling, which I believe is a very vanilla, non-criminal, "knock it off, both of you!" type order.

Can you really and truly stop engaging your ex? If so, that will put you in a different position than, say, the battered victim of domestic violence, who finds himself or herself inadvertently violating the order when trying to resolve complex domestic issues, like the custody of children.

Matt gives excellent, concrete suggestions in his post above.

ADDED: I wonder if you haven't actually achieved more than you think by having had the will to take this court action. 

[.cup.car]

You went to a tremendous effort in your court case, and it makes sense to feel that you did not get your day in court. But I think there may be wisdom in the judge's ruling, which I believe is a very vanilla, non-criminal, "knock it off, both of you!" type order. Can you really and truly stop engaging your ex? If so, that will put you in a different position than, say, the battered victim of domestic violence, who finds himself or herself inadvertently violating the order when trying to resolve complex domestic issues, like the custody of children. Matt gives excellent, concrete suggestions in his post above.

ADDED: I wonder if you haven't actually achieved more than you think by having had the will to take this court action. 

I agree 100% with the bolded statement because when you put it that way, it makes sense.

I haven't exactly been engaging her; to be honest I'd not heard from her for a little under a year. I thought it was over for good because we'd discussed it face to face. Then she still sat around messaging my friends about me. Then a few months of nothing. Then her dad began messaging me. Then she began digging up posts from over a year ago and obsessively commenting on them to claim I was stalking her. Then making passive aggressive twitter posts about us. Then when I failed to respond to these (because I hadn't seen them), she contacted a friend of mine, which in turn made me curious and look up her online activity and discovered what I'd just mentioned and it freaked me out a fair bit.

And yes, maybe I have to take a step back and acknowledge that I accomplished a lot taking it to court. Yes, I did not get a chance to present my evidence, which was wrong. However, simply having the binders on the table in front of me might cause the defendant (in this case her father) to wonder what exactly I planned to show - especially as I had also mentioned a police file number and cited some of her personal issues that he obviously knows about.

Regardless, I've still got a few free sessions left with a lawyer - I might package some stuff anyways and at least prepare for the future. There's a reason I'm on this site after all, you know how these people can be.

[KateCat]

Yeah, my (pretty uninformed) take on this would be that her father is now on notice. And your local court is now on notice. And if your courts (are you in Alberta?) and law enforcement agencies are like the ones in my U.S. state, then things would get more attention in a next phase of any problems you have.

Where I live, "judicial economy" might dictate that a case like this begin with mutual restraining orders in any case. If you're then wrongly charged with some crime, I would think that you could unleash forensic examination of the accuser's evidence to prove yourself innocent.

As Matt notes above, "I have not posted anything about her since the court order was issued"--this will be your good friend.

[Matt]

I'm not sure why you think all older people don't get the internet.  I think Facebook has more users over 30 or 40 than any other age group.  Unless you are making your living by writing on whatever social media outlet you are on, then get off of it until this is all gone.  That's not giving up the internet.  There's a HUGE internet and plenty more websites to go to.   Unless you need this income, if there is any income, then let go of your own ego if you don't want to be framed and/or arrested.  

Yes, I can financially afford to let this go for a time. I'm not a writer or YouTuber, I'll say that much.

I'm worried because when I google "mutual restraining orders", I get results such as:

Mutual restraining orders may diminish the effectiveness of enforcement by creating confusion among law enforcement officials. When a mutual restraining order is issued after one person petitions for a restraining order against the other, that person's confidence in the fairness of the justice system may be lost, generating feelings of resentment or helplessness.

and

If a mutual order is issued against you, the petitioner, you may be criminally prosecuted for violating the order. Your batterer could trick you into violating the order so that the police will arrest you and charge you with a crime.

Which is some of the exact behavior this girl displayed to make me go to the police and eventually the courts in the first place. And being allowed to actually show my evidence would most likely change the judge's outcome. You can't ignore four years worth of messages that drastically alter the narrative her father supplied.

With a mutual RO, you don't get the satisfaction of "winning" - being declared right, and the other party is wrong.  I've been to court, and come out of it with a "tie", and it's not very satisfying.

But... .from a practical point of view, a mutual RO can be a very good thing, because it means there probably won't be any more engagement between two people who don't play well together, so the bad stuff should end.

The wise thing to do, in my view, is to choose other things and people to focus on, and just let go of your ex, so she is just not a part of your life anymore.

[livednlearned]

Hi cupcar,

Sorry to hear you have to deal with this.

When you walk into court to represent yourself, and you aren't a lawyer, it's not that different than a 60-year-old judge trying to set up a blog for the first time, especially if he isn't familiar with the Internet. There are a lot of procedural rules you have to follow, like the three copies and all that. And there are good reasons for it, although sometimes those reasons don't make any sense until you sit and watch a lot of cases. Also, some judges are very lenient with pro se litigants, while others are not. Yours might've been a stickler.

As for your concerns about the mutual restraining order, my experience is that anyone can take you to court for pretty much anything. She doesn't need a restraining order to make it easy to mess with your life. All she has to do is make a false allegation and you're on the defensive. It can get a lot worse than Internet stalking if her goals is to stay negatively engaged with you.  

So the restraining order isn't all that effective, either way.

You have to make the choice about what you care about, and whether you want to play with fire.

One last thought... .it isn't really about how old someone is when it comes to understanding the Internet. It's that the laws aren't in sync with the variations that the Internet presents. And family court isn't going to try and understand the ins and outs and nuances. Restraining orders were designed initially for physical contact, then phone. Both are pretty straightforward types of interactions. The many-to-many, many-to-one, and one-to-many ways you can communicate on the Internet make restraint a confusing legal concept.

Can't you lie low for a while and see if you can wait this out? I think the judge is giving you a chance to show whether you are taking this seriously.

[ForeverDad]

My ex's response to my divorce filing was to file harassment allegations is civil court.  There was nothing she could prove, for example she said I was calling her all the time.  The reality was I was calling about one a day and since she didn't answer I was leaving messages asking to speak with my preschooler son since she was blocking all contact.  (Actually that's what forced me to file for divorce, to get a family court parenting time schedule ordered.)  But my lawyer said that if left to a judge to rule then she could get up to 5 years of 'protection' simply because (1) she was a woman and (2) no judge wants a case he dismissed appear on the front page of the local newspaper ending with violence or worse.

My lawyer advised me to work out a deal and it worked.  Sure, I didn't like it, it grated on my nerves and sense of justice but the outcome had known parameters: (1) mutual stay-away (2) no guilt admitted (3) no findings made by the court (4) our child was excluded from the action (5) it ended within the year (6) it was a type of agreement that she couldn't go back to court and renew or extend.

Yes, I was concerned that she would try to frame me or make allegations I did something, but I recorded myself any time we had exchanges or any sort of contact.

Our advice is that forevermore you never, not even once, never ever contact her in any way.  Firm boundary.  We know you were doing that before, just keep on doing that.  You can't risk her taking advantage of it to sabotage you.  Yes, she may try to engage you or frame you in the future but not much you can do about that.  What you can control is you, your actions, your reactions, your keeping your distance.

[KateCat]

Our advice is that forevermore you never, not even once, never ever contact her in any way. 

It might help to acknowledge and accept the difficulty of this--for both you and your ex. If you and she have been involved since you were 17 and she was 15, this is going to be really hard. But pretty darn necessary to protect everyone involved.

[.cup.car]

Thanks for all the helpful advice guys, I've been monitoring this thread while trying to get my mind to focus on other things.

I do not believe this is the end of this ridiculous saga. I can't predict how it'll go, but like I said before, there's a reason I'm on this site, and there's a reason I applied for a restraining order in the first place. I think KateCat put it best, we've known each other since I was seventeen and she was fifteen - it's been a very difficult weekend just to try and get my mind on other things, it must be even harder for a pwBPD to be told "you cannot even attempt to talk to him anymore unless you want to go to jail."

Which, she might - in the evidence I was not allowed to present, she actually expressed an outright desire to go to jail. It's entirely possible she may show up on my doorstep begging me to call the cops as a means to an end. I don't know.

Hopefully I'll hear back Monday from a lawyer or two, just so I can get some advice on what to do if the situation escalates. Being 21, this isn't exactly a common problem I can go talk to my bros about. It's not like we know the legal system.

I hope other people have found this thread helpful. I've read lots of stories about pwBPD on here, but they usually involved older folk (mid-to-late 20's at the youngest), or parents dealing with out of control teenage daughters like my ex. Never found somebody in my shoes so maybe this'll help somebody.

[ForeverDad]

She is clearly trying to make her problems your problems, whether by Blaming, Blame-Shifting, Projection, Transference, etc.  The professionals aren't all that concerned since it's not their lives hanging in the balance.  For them it's work and they can go home at the end of the day and go on with their own lives.

I recall one therapist telling me, "If you didn't do anything then you can't go to jail."  Um, yeah, I thought to myself, you haven't been walking in my shoes!  Fortunately I was never arrested and over time she did lose some credibility.  We still communicate because we share a child but it's been nearly 9 years since separation and I still keep my contact to a minimum.

Do remind yourself periodically that you can't use reason to figure why she's doing this.  You can describe it, you can categorize it, you can even write textbooks about it, but it still won't make common sense.  Why?  It's mental illness and by definition it doesn't make sense.  However, the patterns of poor behavior can be predicted to a certain extent.  So don't be caught off guard.  Even if she tries to undo this, let her do it to the court.  Her telling just you won't help you in court and later she could revert back to making allegations yet again.

[Matt]

There are some similarities between the behaviors of someone with BPD, and the behaviors of someone who hangs around the BPD sufferer (that's you and me), and an alcoholic or addict.

Someone once defined addiction as when you get bad consequences for a particular behavior, and you keep doing it anyway.  You get a couple DUIs, go to jail and lose your license, and the day you get out, you get drunk and drive home from the bar.  (I know someone who did that!)  A clear pattern of dysfunctional behavior - serious consequences - and back to that same behavior.

My ex has BPD.  She did stuff like throwing huge fits, and making wild accusations, which scared the kids and damaged our marriage.  Eventually she got some bad consequences - we separated, our financial situation got worse, and she lost the support of my family - but her behavior went back to how it was.  Because she has a problem.

But what about us - the "non-BPD" partners?

We hang out with someone who has BPD - a dysfunctional behavior.  We eventually get bad results - accusations, jail, restraining orders, and just a whole lot of chaos.  And then we go back for more - resume the relationship, or at least continue to engage with the BPD sufferer.  Behavior - consequences - then more of the same behavior.

The question is, what will it take, to shock us out of this pattern, and get us to turn away from the flame, and pursue other people and things that are more positive?

For me, it was jail.  It was literally in jail that I thought, "Gee, maybe this relationship isn't working... .".  For others it's stress that ruins their health, or some other bad consequence that finally makes us realize that the relationship can't be fixed because the BPD sufferer can't be fixed (by us at least).

So... .cup.car... .what will it take, to make you turn away from the flame?

[KateCat]

I hope other people have found this thread helpful. I've read lots of stories about pwBPD on here, but they usually involved older folk (mid-to-late 20's at the youngest), or parents dealing with out of control teenage daughters like my ex. Never found somebody in my shoes so maybe this'll help somebody.

Neither have I ever heard of someone your age going through this, except with a parent by his side.

[.cup.car]

So... .cup.car... .what will it take, to make you turn away from the flame?

Judging by how this has all unfolded since 2010, I honestly think that kind of event hasn't happened yet. I have a nagging feeling the court hearing set her off and turned her into a ticking time bomb, just by her mannerisms. At this point all I can do is pray the situation doesn't escalate.

Neither have I ever heard of someone your age going through this, except with a parent by his side.

I'd say this happens in high school a whole bunch, BUT the parents get involved early on and all parties are silenced with the help of school administration. It's chalked up to "kids being idiots." After graduating, I have no idea.

[Matt]

So... .cup.car... .what will it take, to make you turn away from the flame?

Judging by how this has all unfolded since 2010, I honestly think that kind of event hasn't happened yet. I have a nagging feeling the court hearing set her off and turned her into a ticking time bomb, just by her mannerisms. At this point all I can do is pray the situation doesn't escalate.

I'm not sure you understood me.

What I'm asking is, will you choose to stay involved with her - at a distance, through social media etc., but still involved - or will you choose to turn away, and end all your involvement with her, and get your needs met by other people and pursuits?

[.cup.car]

So... .cup.car... .what will it take, to make you turn away from the flame?

Judging by how this has all unfolded since 2010, I honestly think that kind of event hasn't happened yet. I have a nagging feeling the court hearing set her off and turned her into a ticking time bomb, just by her mannerisms. At this point all I can do is pray the situation doesn't escalate.

I'm not sure you understood me.

What I'm asking is, will you choose to stay involved with her - at a distance, through social media etc., but still involved - or will you choose to turn away, and end all your involvement with her, and get your needs met by other people and pursuits?

The latter.

[Matt]

So... .cup.car... .what will it take, to make you turn away from the flame?

Judging by how this has all unfolded since 2010, I honestly think that kind of event hasn't happened yet. I have a nagging feeling the court hearing set her off and turned her into a ticking time bomb, just by her mannerisms. At this point all I can do is pray the situation doesn't escalate.

I'm not sure you understood me.

What I'm asking is, will you choose to stay involved with her - at a distance, through social media etc., but still involved - or will you choose to turn away, and end all your involvement with her, and get your needs met by other people and pursuits?

The latter.

Very cool.

So what are the concrete actions - what to do, and what not to do - that will implement this strategy?