What was it like to be idealized?

[anxiety5]

Ah, thanks Fluf! Perfect

[Pingo]

P.S. recognizing someone else's suffering and pain have nothing to do with empathy. That's intuition. Something they definitely have. That entire principal is why they can spot a codependent from a mile away. They hear the yearning, the pain, the suffering in this person's stories, behaviors and responses to their behaviors. They recognize these things absolutely and totally. Their lack of empathy is quite evident by the fact that after they recognize the fragility of a person who is essentially an enabler because of past trauma, instead of nurturing this person they use these things to their advantage. Knowing that this person has attachment issues, or is a fixer or rescuer, they end up taking you for a ride to push all of the buttons to trigger you into an obsession with them so that they can have unmitigated control over you and your willingness to bear witness to their objectification and abuse of you. This is not empathy. It's a predator in the hunt.

From an article on theTricycle website about compassion meditation:

"Psychologist and primate researcher Frans B.M. de Waal began this conversation by identifying empathy as an automated, involuntary, biologically-inbuilt reaction.  He contrasted the reactive component of empathy with the predominantly cognitive dimension of compassion or “self-aware sympathy” exhibited only in animals capable of mirror self-recognition."

If this is true then I would think both empathy and compassion are directed from being able to look outside of yourself/ your own needs.  I can see this being near impossible with a pwBPD.  Maybe it can come out at times in small doses but not in r/s where their survival is at stake.  I think what you are saying is that they have 'pseudo compassion' in order to draw us in, it's all a calculated act and that's why the idealisation phase ends when they 'have us'?

[Fluff]

Just playing around here, but I think the pwBPD looks up to us as untouchable parents in some sense (that they try to control). It's ok to rebel against your parents without any real concern for their feelings. Parents are super humans. Rebel against the parent, it's your right, they can take it. Be devastated when they couldn't take it. Make sure they don't leave. Repeat.

Well, I have read this so many times but it clicked for me now. When you're in the parent role they don't have to use empathy/compassion/sympathy. You're an all mighty parent.

Edit: You use the empathy/compassion/sympathy for someone in a worse position than you. Or someone that's "weak" at the moment in some sense. You don't worry about hurting someone that's super strong.

Edit2: I don't know... .

[myself]

that's why the idealisation phase ends when they 'have us'?

They're wired for the chase, and for running away, not for staying. Deep down, it's about trying to not 'have' themselves. Self-sabotage. Once they have us, they don't really know what to do. Controlling, and out of control, feelings become overwhelming. It's when they start waking up from one dream and when another is beginning. Bad patterns overlapping. They also find they don't know how to handle that we can't really save them. How to face that we also idealize them but they know they can't live up to it either.

[anxiety5]

Your parent comment is true. What is love defined as? Mostly everyone has their own interpretation. It's one of the strangest things. Everyone seeks it. Everyone has felt it, yet nobody can define it. In the early stages of childhood if a parent is unreachable, distant, or purposefully neglectful of a child, this can plant a seed. Parents are idealized when we are children. We only grow opinions of them later. In essence, if the idealization of an unreciprocated, unavailable person occurs, it can leave an impactful emotional disturbance. The feeling of chasing, of depravity, of pursuit is how the child felt towards the idealized parent. This becomes their interpretation of what love is. That's why the BPD often times is associated with inverse patterns wherein if you love them more, they love you less and if you leave they come chasing. It's not sadistic. It's very real to them. That feeling that we've all felt in the chase of another person, awakens those deeply imbedded feelings of what they view as love. Unless they seek help, if they are a low functioning BPD, they will spend eternity stuck in this pattern of relationships. Psychologically they are trying to resolve the issue they had as a child, by recreating these relationships as adults. Without awareness, they don't understand these things. To them, they don't feel that feeling of being alive once the relationship is valid and secure. It's not that they are "bored" It's their passion simply fades and they don't feel it anymore because they are no longer in pursuit of you. This is also a reason why BPDs and Narcissists often team up. Narcissists and their fear of engulfment, will push a pursuing BPD away, keeping them laser focused, and "in love" with the person they can't have.

It's sad really.

[findingmyselfagain]

The idealization felt like "falling in love." I'd never really let myself go in head over heels before. She came on very strong with the love-bombs, soulmate talk, and affection. I bought the story that all of the previous men abused her. Now I know that maybe they did, in her mind, but after how she destroyed our relationship I don't know if that's the whole truth. I can remember when we first met that she would just stare at me sometimes while I was driving down the road, just looking at me and idealizing me as much as you could imagine. Within just 2-3 weeks she was letting her daughter call me "daddy" and telling me how much she wanted to have children with me.

I was younger then and more naive, and had never experienced anything like the borderline experience. I take love more seriously now, and I wait before I allow myself to get emotionally attached. My last girlfriend had some qualities that wasn't compatible with what I need, so allowing myself to move slower (possibly slower than her) made it easier to end things. I wish I hadn't bought into the idealization so quickly and easily. Who doesn't want to fall in love though? For a long time I just thought that I finally and really found the One.

[BlackandBlue]

But what if they are a high functioning pwBPD? I've thought of my exgf as being high functioning because she is intelligent and is good a wearing the mask but she seems to be stuck in the relationship pattern you described. It's crazy but now that I think back to a conversation we had early in our relationship right when it was taking off, she said she's in a a continuous cycle where she gets involved with men like her dad... .someone she didn't think to highly of. This was a total red flag I ignored. I don't think I'm anything like her dad thou.

[dermo]

she introduced me to her 10 year old son very early on and i have found that difficult in terms of NC... .the penny also dropped to me that she had done her best to alienate him from his father... .even though our relationship was faltering she wanted me to take her and the son on the first contact with his dad in 4 years. This despite the fact that she was having an affair with a married Police Officer anyway. Its sole purpose was to wind the boys dad up.

Her parenting with him was pure alienation... .dad does not give us any money (he is unemployed and she has a good job), yes you do not have dad about but you have a wonderful mother... .she took umbrage at some of my comments... .

the irony is my ex was the same and post divorce i had to battle Parental Alienation with my ex... .i was being drawn to the same type of woman... .their other similarities were gaslighting... .usually with reference to affairs... .

Idealized? We were going to buy a cottage in France, i was going to look after her when she was older if she ever got ill, sexually she said she worshipped my ££$$... .what was there not to like?

In the end they become like a very powerful drug... .they drift between your reality and somewhere else... .the hardest and deepest scar is one i had in both relationships... .you make love and as you do tell them you love them... .you are exposed as you ever can be... .and during that time they are having another relationship... .

i dont think i could ever figure it out and never will... .it is inverted abuse... .they have been abused... .they become the abuser... .

[Blimblam]

They put themselves in a others shoes so much they become their own shoes. It's just not sustainable. It eventually triggers in both of us expectations the other can not live up to and it falls apart. There is empathy, extreme empathy but carpmentalized. When that compartment is shut off to us it blows our mind.

[anxiety5]

high functioning doesn't really differentiate. I think you should look up the different types of BPDs. You may have been dating the more lower key type who doesn't have these outbursts as frequently. But the person I dated has a six figure manager job and a graduate degree. She was what they call the "queen" type. Her emotions are raw, exposed and volatile. No matter what the type, the only people who seem to be aware are the immediate family and the spouse. The immediate family are most likely BPD themselves, they raised them. Or at the very least enablers because that's how this character was raised by and nurtured to begin with so they had a play in creating them. Some red flags looking back, they don't have many close friends. The ones they do have are superficial. There isn't a "real" friendship. It's more akin to 2 people who barely know each other but both want to go see the same movie. Witnessing the conversations, it's all a facade, there is no depth in the dialogue. It's like hanging out with someone you don't know, you aren't going to really be yourself. This is also a chance to see their act in full play. More red flags, they will tell you about their ex's but there is always cloudy/shady ways they split up. Never a defined event, or moment. I now see that's because when things get bad these people find your replacement and phase you out. And the relationships have an overlap that they will never admit, but many times they were seeing both people for a period of time and chose one over the other. Also, they rarely have any identifiable passions or hobbies. If they do, they skip around. One day they are Tiger Woods in training, golfing daily. The next month there are cob webs on the clubs in the garage. They also are always changing things. And doing so often illogically. They will all the sudden replace a perfectly good couch, get a new car, change the color of paint on all the walls, etc. They immerse themselves in these projects. A lot of times they never start or get finished. It's just an insight into their frantic ever changing focus. Apply that to you as their significant other, and although perfectly good, one day they will be shopping for your replacement for seemingly no reason.

[Lion Fire]

The idealization was intoxicating to say the least!

She finally caught me at a vulnerable time in my life... .my business was in it's last legs, I was selling my home and generally things were in a shakey state. I was single at the time and she came on strong, for 2 years on and off. She was skillful I'll give her that. She'd located my weak spots... .self esteem issues, I was living a solitary and somewhat austere life and she would say the right things at the right times.

Once I took the bait after 2 years of pressure by her, it was like I entered wonderland   It was all about soul mates, lets build a home, have kids, travel, "roll down hills together", make love every day, go to music festivals... .think big and live our dreams. She used the words unit, cell love, forever love, UNITed etc every day. She laid on the sex stuff big as well.

I overruled my instinct and the massive red flags and went for it.

It really was too good to be true. A fantasy world she created and I bought it and ran with her.

Like wonderland... .

Once things switched, when normal living arrived with day to day stuff she spun out and went into a hysterical panic and brutally smashed the relationship.

It was frightening and confusing. It still is in a way.

The part I miss the most is the dream which was everything I ever wanted. She gave me a glimpse of that and then violently tore it to shreds.

[Blimblam]

I think the subtype has a lot to do with it.

My ex was a waif.  

She has a friend who is a BPD nar comorbid which manifests as the queen she didn't have empathy.

She had another friend who was BPD/histrionic manifest as the siren/queen again little to no empathy.

I believe the subtype of the queen to be a narcisistic persona they adopt and it sucks up their capacity for empathy.

My mom was a waif/witch

When in waif mode she had a degree of empathy. She has since become waif/witch/queen/hermit. I believe the queen to suck up all her capacity for empathy. The queen becomes a vortex within their own being.

[BlackandBlue]

I do believe my exBPDgf's mom is either BPD or npd. The first time I met that lady I sensed something was quite right. She seemed really full of herself and really disrespectful. She definitely has no empathy toward anyone either. From conversations with my ex her mom was very hard on her with everything. Whether it was in school or in sports the she pushed her really hard... .too hard in my opinion. My ex had the 4th highest gpa in high school and is in a computer engineering program in college... .that's why I considered her high functioning. I have looked different types of BPD and I thought she seemed like a waif to me... .I could be wrong thou. I'm not sure if she was cheating on me or not... .I don't think so but the thought of it is making my heart really ache :'(

[Blimblam]

I do believe my exBPDgf's mom is either BPD or npd. The first time I met that lady I sensed something was quite right. She seemed really full of herself and really disrespectful. She definitely has no empathy toward anyone either. From conversations with my ex her mom was very hard on her with everything. Whether it was in school or in sports the she pushed her really hard... .to hard in my opinion. My ex had the 4th highest gap in high school and is in a computer engineering program in college... .that's why I considered her high functioning. I have looked different types of BPD and I thought she seemed like a waif to me... .I could be wrong thou. I'm not sure if she was cheating on me or not... .I don't think so but the thought of it is making my heart really ache :'(

I think they have the capacity for the other subtypes within them. I really think identifying which mode they are in is a lot more important than what we talk about on the boards also. I have seen all the subtypes within a pwBPD before. They are all in their.

[fred6]

By this time she no longer has a need to lustfully woe you, so the sex either stops or becomes mechanical and lifeless.  

Exactly what happened. After about 7-8 months she pretty much shut down sexually.