What IS Shame, exactly?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've been reading a lot about Shame and BPD, and I don't exactly understand it.

I've read some things on the site, as well as that forum thread a couple of days ago , referring to it.  Is if good if a BPDex Experiences shame?  Or does it push them away more (for they push things away that give them shame?)

What makes them experience it?  What happens when they experience it?

And whats the difference between Shame and Guilt?  I've read some things on the difference but I don't exactly understand

[Algae]

I've been reading a lot about Shame and BPD, and I don't exactly understand it.

I've read some things on the site, as well as that forum thread a couple of days ago , referring to it.  Is if good if a BPDex Experiences shame?  Or does it push them away more (for they push things away that give them shame?)

What makes them experience it?  What happens when they experience it?

And whats the difference between Shame and Guilt?  I've read some things on the difference but I don't exactly understand

[Blimblam]

Guilt, I feel bad about what I did.

Shame, I am bad.

[Algae]

Guilt, I feel bad about what I did.

Shame, I am bad.

So... shame is "I am bad for what I did".  But they still don't feel guilty or sorry?  Just, "I'm a horrible person, but whatever... suppressing it is the only thing that will fix it... not apologizing".

That's basically what I've gathered thus far, but im not ure if its accurate.

[Blimblam]

Shame is more like "I did this because I am bad"

[Algae]

Shame is more like "I did this because I am bad"

I apologize   I still don't fully understand.  "I did this because I am bad", So they think they're a bad person, and for that they feel they have the right to do bad things without feeling bad or obtaining consequence?

[Blimblam]

Shame is more like "I did this because I am bad"

I apologize   I still don't fully understand.  "I did this because I am bad", So they think they're a bad person, and for that they feel they have the right to do bad things without feeling bad or obtaining consequence?

They do feel bad. They have the impulse control of a child. They feel bad so they lie they don't want to feel bad so they become abusive. They don't want to feel bad so they cheat. But these things make them feel bad. Then them hurting you reminds them they feel bad so they leave.

[Algae]

Shame is more like "I did this because I am bad"

I apologize   I still don't fully understand.  "I did this because I am bad", So they think they're a bad person, and for that they feel they have the right to do bad things without feeling bad or obtaining consequence?

They do feel bad. They have the impulse control of a child. They feel bad so they lie they don't want to feel bad so they become abusive. They don't want to feel bad so they cheat. But these things make them feel bad. Then them hurting you reminds them they feel bad so they leave.

Ah, so I guess thats where "replacements" come in.  They get a replacement because hurting us makes them feel shame(bad).  But they eventually feel shame from the replacement too I'm guessing?

I'm still kind of 'iffy' on the meaning, or on what makes them eventually come to terms with what they've done, and come back like they ALWAYS do.

But I think I understand a bit more.

[Skip]

Unlike guilt, which is the feeling of doing something wrong, shame is the feeling of being something wrong.

Shame is increasingly being recognized as a powerful, painful and potentially dangerous emotion - especially for those who don’t understand its origins or know how to manage through it.  Shame plays an important role in social phobias, eating disorders, domestic violence, substance abuse, road rage, schoolyard and workplace rampages, sexual offenses and a host of other personal and social problems. It’s the root of dysfunctions in families.

Problems occur when shame or humiliation becomes... .

More

[Algae]

Unlike guilt, which is the feeling of doing something wrong, shame is the feeling of being something wrong.

Shame is increasingly being recognized as a powerful, painful and potentially dangerous emotion - especially for those who don’t understand its origins or know how to manage through it.  Shame plays an important role in social phobias, eating disorders, domestic violence, substance abuse, road rage, schoolyard and workplace rampages, sexual offenses and a host of other personal and social problems. It’s the root of dysfunctions in families.

Problems occur when shame or humiliation becomes... .

More

Good read indeed.  It sounds like shame though it just another way to say, "Low Self-Image".  Growing up I thought shame meant that you should feel guilty for what you have done.  I'm trying to change my definition as of now, to fully understand it.

So then how does shame even relate to their actions against us? I don't see how they could feel  shameful just because they treated us like crap and left us in the dirty. 

Is it good if someone with BPD feels shame after they do what they did?  Is it bad?

[Fluff]

Wow, almost every item on that list hit home with me.

[Springle]

Unlike guilt, which is the feeling of doing something wrong, shame is the feeling of being something wrong.

Shame is increasingly being recognized as a powerful, painful and potentially dangerous emotion - especially for those who don’t understand its origins or know how to manage through it.  Shame plays an important role in social phobias, eating disorders, domestic violence, substance abuse, road rage, schoolyard and workplace rampages, sexual offenses and a host of other personal and social problems. It’s the root of dysfunctions in families.

Problems occur when shame or humiliation becomes... .

More

Wow... .that was a deep read.

I especially identified with these points :

- Adults shamed as children frequently feel defensive when even a minor negative feedback is given. They suffer feelings of severe humiliation if forced to look at mistakes or imperfections.

- Adults shamed as children feel like outsiders. They feel a pervasive sense of loneliness throughout their lives, even when surrounded with those who love and care.

- Adults shamed as children feel they must do things perfectly or not at all. This internalized belief frequently leads to performance anxiety and procrastination.

- Adults shamed as children often feel angry and judgmental towards the qualities in others that they feel ashamed of in themselves. This can lead to shaming others.

In fact just admitting I feel those things makes me feel a lot of shame.

May I ask, in the past I have definitely looked internally at myself and thought 'am I a bad person?' It has usually been spurned by guilt first however, I have done something impulsive and insensitive usually, hurt someone's feelings or done something that on reflection have felt embarrassed about. I hate to say it but I have rarely apologies in those instances, because I am so embarrassed/humiliated and have lied to myself of whether I was truly at fault. But it does all start with guilt, however the guilt of numerous events has built up and I have moments where I look back and think, 'look at all this stuff I did, all this bad stuff. Only bad people do those things, am I bad? Surely I must be.'

^ Is this a normal thought process for a pwBPD? Or for them is it more the other way round? i.e. 'I am bad, therefore I do these bad things; it is the way it is.'

[Pingo]

Guilt requires a conscience, an ability to have empathy for another.  It requires one to see themselves as a separate individual.  The focus is on the action (I DID something wrong).  I think shame is something learned in our young lives where we don't have the ability yet to have cognitive dissonance, 'mixed feelings', the ability to see ourselves yet as a separate individual.  When we are abused we are left with the only option to see ourselves as 'bad'.  (I AM wrong)

[Pingo]

May I ask, in the past I have definitely looked internally at myself and thought 'am I a bad person?' It has usually been spurned by guilt first however, I have done something impulsive and insensitive usually, hurt someone's feelings or done something that on reflection have felt embarrassed about. I hate to say it but I have rarely apologies in those instances, because I am so embarrassed/humiliated and have lied to myself of whether I was truly at fault. But it does all start with guilt, however the guilt of numerous events has built up and I have moments where I look back and think, 'look at all this stuff I did, all this bad stuff. Only bad people do those things, am I bad? Surely I must be.'

^ Is this a normal thought process for a pwBPD? Or for them is it more the other way round? i.e. 'I am bad, therefore I do these bad things; it is the way it is.'

To ask yourself this question requires self-reflection.  I don't think they ask themselves anything because they don't have the ability to self-reflect.  Their sense of self is so distorted.  They feel the shame, then they act out, then the cycle continues.  They do 'bad things' as coping or survival mechanisms but I don't think they stop to ponder why.  At least that is my experience.