My first communications after the cheating stops

[Grey Kitty]

I've already got two thoughts about my letter.

1. I still don't really like my last sentence.

2. I think I know my reason--I'm not sure what response I want out of my wife. (Besides going NC with the guy! ... .and pulling her head out of her butt permanently  )

I'm not sure if I want to hear yet whether she did (or did not) cut contact with him.

I'm not really wanting to open dialog yet.

I'm just not sure quite what I want.

I *know* I want nothing to do with "negotiating" with her over cutting contact with this guy.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

I've already got two thoughts about my letter.

1. I still don't really like my last sentence.

2. I think I know my reason--I'm not sure what response I want out of my wife. (Besides going NC with the guy! ... .and pulling her head out of her butt permanently  )

I'm not sure if I want to hear yet whether she did (or did not) cut contact with him.

I'm not really wanting to open dialog yet.

I'm just not sure quite what I want.

I *know* I want nothing to do with "negotiating" with her over cutting contact with this guy.

I agree. I would definitely leave that last sentence off.

If you are not really wanting to open dialogue yet, what is the point of the second email? If you are not ready to know the status of the other guy, then don't ask yet. Maybe you need to give it a few more days to sink in so that you don't open up dialogue before you are ready. If I had received the second email, my first assumption would be that you were trying to open up some kind of dialogue.

[Grey Kitty]

Draft #2. I'm probably going to send it this way, but I'm going to let it sit for a while longer. As always, I invite comments.

I'm not interesting in negotiating anything about this with her. I'm also not going to accept any further contact.

I think all I want to do is put her on notice. It is not like it is anything really new from me... .or should be at all unexpected from our history.

If I establish this now, it may avoid any need to discuss it. When we start talking, I expect to tell her that I don't care to hear anything about him either. Probably ever. And I'll tell her when I do.

I'm finding my inner hardass. 



Subject: Trust

Wife,

I am struggling to figure out if I can trust you again. I am feeling violated and betrayed by you more than I ever felt before.

You offered to cut all contact with [guy] as soon as you got on the plane Sunday. This would be an essential first step toward rebuilding trust.

Me

[vortex of confusion]

Draft #2. I'm probably going to send it this way, but I'm going to let it sit for a while longer. As always, I invite comments.

I'm not interesting in negotiating anything about this with her. I'm also not going to accept any further contact.

I think all I want to do is put her on notice. It is not like it is anything really new from me... .or should be at all unexpected from our history.

If I establish this now, it may avoid any need to discuss it. When we start talking, I expect to tell her that I don't care to hear anything about him either. Probably ever. And I'll tell her when I do.

I'm finding my inner hardass. 



Subject: Trust

Wife,

I am struggling to figure out if I can trust you again. I am feeling violated and betrayed by you more than I ever felt before.

You offered to cut all contact with [guy] as soon as you got on the plane Sunday. This would be an essential first step toward rebuilding trust.

Me

If yours is anything like mine, she is liable to want to divulge way too many details about this other person. Definitely be sure to set that as a boundary. NO talking about how much fun this other person is. Period! I am saying this as much for myself as for you.  That was one boundary that I didn't even think to set in our attempt at non-monogamy.

I am still not sure about how you have phrased the stuff about cutting contact with that guy. Would a direct question be well received by her? Would it be possible to ask her "Have you cut contact with [guy]?" The reason that I am asking is because there have been times when I have said something like what you propose and had my husband give me the answer that he thought I wanted to hear rather than the truth. A direct question without any of the other stuff might be more helpful. It almost sounds as though you are trying to get her to give you the answer that you want to hear (maybe a bit of projection on my part due to my own experiences).

[Grey Kitty]

VOC, I'm not worried about the excessive icky information overload. During our poly r/s period, we came with a "Ask, don't tell" rule. If I want to know about what she did with her lover, I will ask for information. She will not volunteer things that I don't ask for. That way I could decided if I preferred knowing or not knowing, and get what I asked for. I gave her the same deal. That was one thing that worked pretty well for us. (Neither of us wanted to either hear or share a lot of detail. Unlike you and your H, we had similar levels of interest this way.)

As for asking whether she cut contact, or asking her not to talk about him... .I am sure that will come up when we start TALKING.

I don't think I'm ready yet.

[123Phoebe]

I think your very recent message to your wife was a masterpiece of maturity and gravity. The present silence is an important product of that message, isn't it? Time for fundamental, essential reflection on the part of both parties?

For my money, you will do well to preserve this moment--now full of significance--by not sending a quick stream of follow-up communications.

Grey Kitty

I'm in full agreement with KateCat.  I'd let this sit for a few since you're not ready to talk and you've already expressed that you will when you're ready.  Any other email communication seems almost redundant at this point, until you're ready to "talk".  Silence speaks loudly, mostly to ourselves when facing something of this magnitude.  Feel the silence.  Perhaps it will speak to her, too.

[MaybeSo]

I’m just kind of musing about all of this, having been in such a similar situation for 7 years.

Going in a bit of a different direction here, but, this is what comes up for me more and more in the past year or so.

When you live with a partner who does this repeatedly, over time, and we stay anyway…we are getting a HUGE break from intimacy, too. And that’s a fact.  And THAT must be working for us somehow, or we’d not continue this.  If we wanted stable intimacy, we would require it or find it.  B/C our partners are the ones who are dramatically acting out, we never really have to look at our own fear of intimacy, or not much, because they are always stealing the show with their antics.  We are acting out our own fear of intimacy, too, but we do it behind the scenes by CHOOSING to be with a partner long term who we can count on to do the dirty explosive work, they are active, we are passive.  I feel like I look like the one who wants intimacy…but I’m in a r/s with a person who can’t sustain intimacy, so I’m not really DOING intimacy. In long term relationships like this, IMHO, both people have issues with intimacy.  Both are about at the same place, developmentally/emotionally as it pertains to intimacy.  Here we are.  We choose this. You chose it. I chose it.  This is where we are.

We are afraid of intimacy, too, my friend.

I am more interested these days in my own capacity to sustain intimacy, or not, than I am his.  I think I get his stuff pretty well.  

Am I growing my capacity for intimacy?

Are you?  :)oes your relationship really require you to step up to the plate in terms of your capacity to stay IN intimacy with another person?

One thing I know, is that i have my own fears of intimacy, and I am concerned that if I don’t eventually move on from my intimacy challenged partner, that I may stay stuck and not develop further in this area, either.  I have no one challenging my issues with intimacy while staying in a relationship like this, b/c my partner is sure to blow it up,  which  means each time he does that,  I’m off the intimacy hook, too.  And, it takes forever to mend these blow ups…so we just stay stuck in sort of a perpetual ground hog day kind of relationship.  Here we go again.  Back to the drawing board. It’s like repeating grade school over and over again…I want to move on to higher education.  Is that possible?

We either have to developmentally move to the next level as a couple, or I have to say good bye to this b/c I want an opportunity in my life to be in a relationship where my partner actually behaves in a manner that challenges me and requires that I stay IN RELATIONSHIP and step up to the intimacy plate, too.  

When relationships get blown up like this over and over again…after a while, developmentally, I feel like I’m just chasing my own tail and no one is really growing. He isn’t, and neither am I.  Not in terms of of capacity for intimacy.  Making-up and repairing over and over again, trying to gain trust again and again…that’s not growth, often it’s just major repair work.  All relationships require repair work, but when it is over the same crap repeatedly and the repair has to be so extensive…like, how can I even ever trust you again….that takes a HUGE amount of time and resources…just to get the relationship maybe on it’s feet again.  How does one grow in that environment, if all resources are utilized doing damage control over and over again?  Some strengths will grow from that, I know, for example,  I have learned so much about my own self-care, but that’s not intimacy with another person.

Do you ever just get totally bored with the whole thing?

I do. I feel like I want so bad to move to the next level.

[MissyM]

When you live with a partner who does this repeatedly, over time, and we stay anyway…we are getting a HUGE break from intimacy, too. And that’s a fact.  And THAT must be working for us somehow, or we’d not continue this.  If we wanted stable intimacy, we would require it or find it.  B/C our partners are the ones who are dramatically acting out, we never really have to look at our own fear of intimacy, or not much, because they are always stealing the show with their antics.  We are acting out our own fear of intimacy, too, but we do it behind the scenes by CHOOSING to be with a partner long term who we can count on to do the dirty explosive work, they are active, we are passive.  I feel like I look like the one who wants intimacy…but I’m in a r/s with a person who can’t sustain intimacy, so I’m not really DOING intimacy. In long term relationships like this, IMHO, both people have issues with intimacy.  Both are about at the same place, developmentally/emotionally as it pertains to intimacy.  Here we are.  We choose this. You chose it. I chose it.  This is where we are.

Well, that is definitely true for me.  When I married my dBPDh, I was still hurting from a previous relationship.  I knew that we didn't have an intimate relationship and I was ok with that when we married.  A couple of years in, I no longer was ok with that.  So I spent years trying to change my dBPDh, so that he could be intimate.  It is so hard to be in a relationship without any intimacy for so many years.  However, this keeps me from triggering my intimacy issues which take a long time in an intimate relationship, to show up.  Then I tend to be the one that bolts. 

Now, it took 11 years into our marriage for my dBPDh to become sexually compulsive with other people.  It looks like the healing from his sexual addiction, working on a core issue of fear of intimacy, might just be the healing that we need.  It is too soon for me to know for sure but there is a definite focus on building real intimacy.  When I am honest with myself, I have stayed away from an intimate relationship because I feel devastated when they end.  I have had 2 truly intimate relationships in my life and it took me several years to get over each one.  My therapists are aware of this, don't think my dBPDh is.

Anyway, don't mean to threadjack with this subject but it really speaks to me.  Thanks for the post.

[MaybeSo]

It looks like the healing from his sexual addiction, working on a core issue of fear of intimacy, might just be the healing that we need.  It is too soon for me to know for sure but there is a definite focus on building real intimacy.  When I am honest with myself, I have stayed away from an intimate relationship because I feel devastated when they end.

MissyM, I so hope you both can work together to build real intimacy together,  that would be just so cool. It sounds like you are in couples counseling maybe?

GreyKitty, I can’t remember, have you and your wife done counseling together?  Would you consider it to help with this current crises?  Would she?

[takingandsending]

MaybeSo,

Your words really touched me. Yes, I chose the relationship with my wife because it was safe. After our intimacy had dried up, I married her because it was safe. It allowed me not to deal with my own desire and issues around intimacy and staying in relation. I realized early on in marriage counseling, before I even knew about her BPD, that I was using our relationship with all the dysfunction to maintain my position as the strong one, as the together one, and to keep my own issues at a distance.

I just don't know how to rebuild intimacy with my wife, even as things have improved. We are talking. That's good, but how does one trust and be vulnerable to a person who has continually been abusive? I know that the healing has to happen within me, and I keep hoping that I will understand whether to move on or to try to repair with honesty to what I really feel and what my needs really are. I think this is getting close to the basement of the feelings inside me.

Thank you all for your insights and discussion. And thanks, GK, for being willing to be open and honest as you go through this. I loved your poem, by the way - I think that is what I would send to your wife. It expresses the pain that you are feeling much more eloquently than oh so many words.

[Grey Kitty]

Here's my update: I sent the email, for better or for worse. It wasn't a question, and has yet to get an answer. I did get an email from my wife later tonight.

Dearest GreyKitty,

I've put my thoughts about the current situation into a text file that you can read when you are ready.

I love you,

Wife

I am very happy with the way she did this. I'm NOT ready to read the file. I may call her before I read it, and tell her that I am ready to read what she is thinking and feeling... .except things that involve him. And ask her I will find any of that in the file. No hurry--I'm not even feeling ready to read it yet.

Tonoght I talked to another mutual friend, given her the two-hour version of the story... .and she also really likes my wife but cannot quite get behind her on this. My wife had shared some of this with her already, so she wasn't surprised to hear that I was upset about my wife cheating.

I'm getting a lot of support that feels very good. From people who want to support both me and my wife, but don't like what  my wife has done. (And also didn't have a good impression of the guy) This is all wonderful and validating.

I do occasionally need to spew a bit of venom about what my wife and this guy have done. But I don't want the kind of support from people who would hate her. I only wish good for my wife. I only wish distance for the guy.

[Grey Kitty]

Maybeso, you (and others) speak of choosing a partner who is guaranteed to blow up intimacy at regular intervals to keep you safe from intimacy. I don't see that as my path to where I am.

I was shy, socially awkward, and kinda numbed/checked out. I didn't even flirt, date, or anything through high school. I was starting to come out of my shell so to speak during college. Then, out of the blue, a woman approached me. I didn't choose her, I accepted that she chose me instead. It took a while before I felt ready, but eventually we got married and still are. (The behaviors that brought me here took quite a few years to manifest and build to difficult levels)

I did get in a polyamorous r/s, but guess what. The woman approached me too, and chose me... .I hadn't really realized I had this option until it happened... .so I still didn't get to dating... .and honestly, I did choose this r/s, but others were leading the choice, not me.

And my issue is that I check out and don't think about what I want... .I go along with somebody else's choice of what they want. I don't make my own choice, and have my own set of cop-outs around that. (Somebody else being my wife!)

Once I start making my own choices, I may just choose intimacy and be done with it. Or I'll find that I'm still choosing a partner who blows it up and need to look at that net.

I'm pretty sure that the big self-directed choices are what I need to find, and what this wake-up call I'm having is telling me to work on.

[MaybeSo]

Maybeso, you (and others) speak of choosing a partner who is guaranteed to blow up intimacy at regular intervals to keep you safe from intimacy. I don't see that as my path to where I am.

I was shy, socially awkward, and kinda numbed/checked out. I didn't even flirt, date, or anything through high school. I was starting to come out of my shell so to speak during college. Then, out of the blue, a woman approached me. I didn't choose her, I accepted that she chose me instead. It took a while before I felt ready, but eventually we got married and still are. (The behaviors that brought me here took quite a few years to manifest and build to difficult levels)

I did get in a polyamorous r/s, but guess what. The woman approached me too, and chose me... .I hadn't really realized I had this option until it happened... .so I still didn't get to dating... .and honestly, I did choose this r/s, but others were leading the choice, not me.

And my issue is that I check out and don't think about what I want... .I go along with somebody else's choice of what they want. I don't make my own choice, and have my own set of cop-outs around that. (Somebody else being my wife!)

Once I start making my own choices, I may just choose intimacy and be done with it. Or I'll find that I'm still choosing a partner who blows it up and need to look at that net.

I'm pretty sure that the big self-directed choices are what I need to find, and what this wake-up call I'm having is telling me to work on.

I would agree.  There are developmental steps needed here.  These relationships, really any healthy adult relationship, REQUIREs differentiation, which is developmental,  and  it’s what most of us need developmentally. At least I think so.

By the way, when referring to choosing our partners and choosing where we are…even if the dynamic was that we are the passive partner or we were literally ‘chosen’ from the dating pool…there is STILL choice involved, you know?  I don’t think any of us ‘consciously’ were aware in present time that we picked out the one person we assured would blow-up intimacy thereby taking us off the hook…this kind of arrangement doesn’t usually get consciously chosen, but evolves and only with insight and  some self reflection we may become more aware of some of our own deep needs that get met by maintaining a dysfunctional r/s.  In terms of needed growth, probably we did make the right choice, conscious or not.  In couples therapy, it’s often said, these two are together for good reason. They are two sides of the same developmental coin.  Regardless of passivity, each day, we choose. Choice is more fluid and more complex than just who took the lead during the dating process. Passive folks often wield quite a bit of power and influence.

Wish you all the best with your developing situation with wife.    

[Grey Kitty]

In couples therapy, it’s often said, these two are together for good reason. They are two sides of the same developmental coin.

 You keep throwing out little bits of gold for me! That one sunk in on me--If I'm at a point where I need to work on my passivity and start making active choices... .I'm thinking that my wife's side of the same coin is her willful impulsive and unwise choices.

Speaking of couples T, we have done it before, several times. We haven't done so for a year or two, and with our geographic instability, the only "good" one we've used before is a city we might visit... .but neither of us really wants to live there longer-term. Assuming we start talking and end up living together again, I will suggest couples T, and start looking for one.


Thanks--you are correct--I am totally passing the buck when I say that my relationship choices were passive and reactive instead of active.

I did accept the choice to go into both relationships. In addition, I actively chose to end my second relationship, because I found it impossible to communicate/negotiate with her successfully. On the  surface, the issues were about the choices to spend time together... .but ultimately, it was about negotiating intimacy... .I decided that she wasn't capable of doing it successfully. At least with me. (She doesn't do well with others either, 'tho!)

I've got all I can handle to get myself making active choices that fit my values. (Especially if I include working to repair the emotional trainwreck my marriage became last month!)

When I feel solid in my choices, I hope to remember to check in and see what sort of intimacy I'm choosing.

[formflier]

 

Do you want another partner... .in addition to your wife?

Are you open to that possibility?  I see that as different from wanting... .

I also think the way your wife reached out to you is good... .I think it shows that she is being respectful. 

Hang in there... .

[Grey Kitty]

Do you want another partner... .in addition to your wife?

I am actively looking to avoid this right now:

1. With all the conflict with my wife, it would be very difficult not to start triangulating in a new intimate relationship. I've seen how badly that can play out already!

2. Inviting somebody into my life with this conflict wouldn't be respectful of them.

3. My biggest issue with my wife is her starting a relationship without my consent, and starting relationships with consent is one of my values. So were I to start something, my values tell me to ask for my wife's consent. I'm afraid that in my wife's mind, the waters are already muddy. I'm not doing that.

Are you open to that possibility?  I see that as different from wanting... .

I see the difference as well, and I am open to possibilities.

I trust that I will resolve the conflict with my wife. I expect real progress in a matter of weeks or months. Possibilities will open up to me as we get resolution. If I'm single, I expect to date. If we reconcile, I intend to date (with consent from my wife).

I see something specific in your question: ":)o I want another partner?" I think of a partner as a long-term relationship, with similar significance to a marriage.

I want to do some exploration of dating and sex. (also relationships). My current interest is the exploration, not the "result" of finding a partner. For me, being honest about my intentions is important. Despite going in with these intentions, I know that the feelings of all involved can and will change. I expect to learn things. (Read "learn" as: Most likely hurt people and get hurt myself in the process of learning.)

And back to my starting point. Pursuing this today would not be safe, kind, or wise.

[formflier]

 

Good reply.

You seem to have things organized in your head properly... .and are thinking about the feelings of others.

I figured as much... .and you may have clarified this somewhere else... .just wanted to give you opportunity to work through this... .

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .I asked for space. I'm mostly getting it. About once a day I get some sort of little "friendly lovey" note in email, text, or facebook.

And every time I got one I just felt kinda pissy at her over it.

In the last couple days I realized what is bugging me. INVALIDATION. Big time. She's ignoring and glossing over things as if I'm not feeling hurt and betrayed. As if I'm not seriously considering ending my marriage. As if I'll just accept her "little dalliance" and go back to things as they were before.

Anyhow... .I'm about to send one more email:



Re: (last email from her)

Wife,

I've been hurting. Terribly.

I feel betrayed.

I get notes from you with "I love you"s, dearest, etc. They are full of sweetness and light.

I don't see any hint of awareness about my pain or feelings in them.

And I don't feel happy and loved, like I probably would have a month ago.

I feel like you don't care about me and my feelings. I'm afraid you don't even notice them.

I'm afraid of finding more of this in the file you sent. I haven't opened it yet.

Will you give me some validation instead?

Me



I'm still not feeling loving or supportive or friendly, and still not interested in presenting that way.

I've got just one thing I'm twisting myself inside out over, and that is the last sentence. Another version I thought of for that sentence was:

"I want validation. I want to know that you care about my feelings. I'm feeling nothing from the sweet nothings."

Any thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

"I want validation. I want to know that you care about my feelings. I'm feeling nothing from the sweet nothings."

Any thoughts?

Hmmm, asking for validation seems kind of vague. What can your wife do or say that would make you feel validated? Maybe you can ask for that directly instead of asking for validation. Maybe something along the lines of, "I need you to acknowledge that you are aware of my pain."

[Grey Kitty]

Now I'm laughing at myself and my situation.

I feel my reactions to what my wife sends me. I try to wait until I've finished feeling, and work on some sort of response (Responding, not Reacting!).

I'm going through a LOT of processing though. It takes me a while.

And before I am ready to respond... .I've got something new to react to.

Last night I got an email that wasn't packed chock full of lovey-dovey invalidation... .what I was writing about in my latest still-unsent email... .

It didn't hit the level of validation that I was craving. Not even close. But all kinds of feelings.

First relief.

Next: What the heck am I doing. She tossed me one little crumb, and I'm ready to forgive, forget, and go back into the unsatisfying life I've had with her.

Going to sleep, rehearsing conversations in my head where I gave her a piece of my mind... .

... .OK... .time to sit with this one a bit longer before I'm ready to respond!

... .and I'm still not ready to read her file of thoughts.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm thinking a little about what I want with/from my wife again.

Only a little--I'm putting my energy into things that don't involve her, and feeling good about those choices for now.

Anyhow... .as far as communications with her... .

• I don't want to hear about the guy she cheated with.



• I don't want to hear what she did with him.



• I don't want to hear why she needed to cheat.



• I don't want to hear about any insights into herself that she got with him*

* Hearing what she learned about herself isn't a problem... .for me to be willing to listen, the (spoken) context cannot involve this incident.

Years from now, I might change my mind and be more open about these things, but I don't really see myself there.

I'm not sure whether I'm in an empathy shortage and am unable to care about her feelings... .or if I'm afraid that when she starts talking about them, I'll get a dose of justification for her actions, and feel hurt and pissed all over again. Maybe both.

I may share this with her. If I do, I want to be careful--Presenting them as "rules" won't help. They really aren't rules. The are enforceable boundaries. If she goes to that sort of crap in a conversation, I'm going to end the conversation to protect myself. I've coached lots of people here on boundary enforcement: You do it for your own protection. Notification in advance is optional.

Whew! Huge sigh of relief. Knowing that I need to protect myself from these things, at least for now. Knowing that I CAN protect myself from them.

I feel better about it now. I'm still considering whether to share this part with her explicitly or not. If I do, I'm sure it will be my feelings, not an announcement of my boundaries.

When I do talk to my wife, I am feeling a strong need to be heard by her.

• I want her to hear that consent is an important value to me.



• I want her to hear about how consent needs to be clear, informed, and affirmative (Yes means yes, instead of no means no... .)



• I want her to hear that kissing on the lips is something that requires advance consent in my world and my marriage.



• I want to tell her that I'm not going to stay in a marriage where my consent is violated.

[MissyM]

When I do talk to my wife, I am feeling a strong need to be heard by her.

I want her to hear that consent is an important value to me.

I want her to hear about how consent needs to be clear, informed, and affirmative (Yes means yes, instead of no means no... .)

I want her to hear that kissing on the lips is something that requires advance consent in my world and my marriage.

I want to tell her that I'm not going to stay in a marriage where my consent is violated.

I strongly identify with the need to be heard.  Problem is, that is so rare with BPDs.  My dBPDh will hear me and seem to understand and then next time the conversation comes up, he has forgotten all of that.  Really, the only thing you have control over is the  way you phrased the last sentence, which is what you want to tell her.  You have no control over whether she will truly hear you or not.  Thankfully, you have everyone here to hear you and some people IRL!

[Grey Kitty]

My dBPDh will hear me and seem to understand and then next time the conversation comes up, he has forgotten all of that. 

Yeah, that's kinda what I'm afraid of too. Or in her case, actions instead of conversations.

Really, the only thing you have control over is the  way you phrased the last sentence, which is what you want to tell her.

I know that. I guess my question (more for myself!) is this:

How do I decide whether I believe her or not when(if?) she says she will honor my consent in the future?

How much am I willing to be vulnerable to this kind of pain again? I do know that staying with her is risking it, whatever she says she will do.

[vortex of confusion]

I know that. I guess my question (more for myself!) is this:

How do I decide whether I believe her or not when(if?) she says she will honor my consent in the future?

How much am I willing to be vulnerable to this kind of pain again? I do know that staying with her is risking it, whatever she says she will do.

Those are tough questions to answer. I have gotten a bit cynical and I don't really believe what my spouse says. I look at his actions. That means that I need to find a way to live in those fuzzy gray areas where I listen to what he says with a bit of skepticism and then let his actions tell me whether or not he truly heard and understood what I said. I wonder if you could set it as a boundary and let the cards fall where they may. I know that my husband usually intends to honor my wishes but usually falls short. The question for me is then, "How do I set a boundary that I can actually enforce?" What are you prepared to do if she doesn't honor your consent in the future?

[MissyM]

That means that I need to find a way to live in those fuzzy gray areas where I listen to what he says with a bit of skepticism and then let his actions tell me whether or not he truly heard and understood what I said. I wonder if you could set it as a boundary and let the cards fall where they may. I know that my husband usually intends to honor my wishes but usually falls short. The question for me is then, "How do I set a boundary that I can actually enforce?" What are you prepared to do if she doesn't honor your consent in the future?

Very well put.  I am only cautiously optimistic with my husband, if I become too overconfident in his words then I would be foolish.

How do I decide whether I believe her or not when(if?) she says she will honor my consent in the future?

It seems just blindly taking the risk wouldn't be wise.  Is she going to do anything to get to the bottom of why she chooses other relationships and how to stop herself?  Just the words are going to mean nothing, as this has been a long pattern with her.

How much am I willing to be vulnerable to this kind of pain again? I do know that staying with her is risking it, whatever she says she will do.

I don't fool myself, there is a huge risk staying with my dBPDh.  Only I can asses if there are enough safety measures in place for me to take the risk.  Same goes for you.

[patientandclear]

GK, this is kind of a tough question -- hope you don't mind.

You already, just very recently, told her that you feel this way.  That for you, other relationships while in the marriage require affirmative consent.

Is it fair to say she pretty flagrantly went and did exactly what you said you needed her not to do?

If you now give her effectively a second warning, are you actually communicating that you may NOT enforce your boundary?  Because she just violated it, after you explained it to her ... .and you are now going to talk with her about what will happen if she does it again in the future.  (I'm totally applying advice learned from one Grey Kitty here.)

[Grey Kitty]

P&C, I don't mind tough questions. I've been known to ask a few as you so rightly point out.

Yes, it is pretty clear that she flagrantly stepped over one of my boundaries.

I'm not unconcerned about giving her "just one more chance" (to blow it again and then I'll give her another chance again)... .

And curiously... .I'm much more concerned today about making important things in my life that are independent of her than I am about how we resolve this conflict... .but still speculating on how it will go... .

She could:

A) Hear my concerns, and promise to fly straight from here on, acknowledge that she needs to work on things, possibly needs help doing it, and that she's committed to doing it.

B) Admit that she messed up, and can't stop herself from doing it again.

C) Continue giving me reasons whey she needed to do this... .

D) Try to nag and harass me for consent, wanting to continue things with the guy.

C & D are the easiest for me... .I've got zero patience for them, and will protect myself from them. Conversation over. D is probably marriage over--I went through two years of it once. Never again.

A & B will be harder for me.

But if I wasn't willing to give her one more chance... .I'd be posting on the "Leaving" board instead of here. I am feeling different ... .feeling some freedom in knowing I don't NEED this marriage to survive and thrive.

What I'm not going to do is decide what my "normal" response to her cheating is... .That isn't working for me.

[formflier]

 

Let me try to put some nuance to this... .

Let me try to point out what we don't want to be like.  We don't want to do black and white thinking (who normally does that?)

So... .it's pretty obvious she knew she was violating... .it's obvious GK needs to enforce the boundary... .the nuance comes in with "how" to enforce it.

She gets no cut on that... .that's up to GK.

In fact... .I don't think that she needs to be told "how" the boundary will be enforced... .nor should she be asked.

That would probably just start an argument... .GK just needs to do... .

Time for a Star Wars moment here... .someone... .use the appropriate quote!   

Anyway... .black and white thinking (to me) would be marriage on... .or marriage off.

Nuanced (healthy) thinking to me would be... .what is GK going to change about the r/s to enforce the boundary.

That change doesn't have to be permanent... .just until GK decides that it is appropriate.

Back to boundary 101... .who is the boundary for... .? who decides the boundary?  who decides how long?

Note... .I was very conscious here to not suggest what boundary enforcement looks like.  Ok... I'll do some doublespeak... and say that I don't think it looks like end of marriage... .but I do think it should be a big deal.  Up to GK to figure out what a "big deal" is.

Hang in there GK... .I think you are working through this well... .

Do you think that splitting this into two threads is helpful? 

Thread one:  What does boundary enforcement look like in my case?

Thread two:  How did I contribute to getting myself in this fix... .and what can I do to avoid a similar situation in the future.

Maybe a bonus thread:  What can I do... .when my wife and I are back together... .to move the r/s forward in a positive direction.

[Grey Kitty]

FF, thanks for your thoughts. I've already got another thread about my own journey, not involving my wife. It gets into questions of what I've done to let myself get here and what is on my side. Up 'till now it has focused on deep issues instead of specific actions. I'm still working that one

I'll allow myself to ramble all around my fears, hopes, other feelings, thoughts, and plans regarding my wife in this thread... .at least 'till the mods close it for excessive length

As for boundary enforcement... .when it comes to cheating, the boundary I can enforce is not being in a r/s with somebody who cheats on me. It isn't the only thing I can do... .just the only boundary enforcement action I can come up with. I'm not enforcing that one yet.

If I were to choose some other action as boundary enforcement for that issue (cheating), like going NC for a period of time, for example, it wouldn't be boundary enforcement. It would an attempt to punish or control my wife.

My choice not to to speak to my wife for the last two weeks hasn't been that. It has just been what I needed and wanted. If it were about her, it would be controlling/punishment. It isn't. It is about me and what I'm feeling, and what I need. (She may feel differently. That doesn't matter to me. I'm not even interested in those feelings.)

Other boundaries like not listening to her talk about the affair... .those I can and will enforce. It took me a while to connect to my feelings and realize I was afraid and I need to protect myself from that... .and once I did that, realizing I could protect myself and how wasn't hard for me.

[Grey Kitty]

Here's what I'm feeling this morning:

When my wife started cheating, I stopped contacting her. She didn’t chase after me, she just sent little lovey touches (which were invalidating and pissed me off a bit)

Once she left the city that changed. I’m hearing more from her, and much of it is things she wants to tell me; she’s sounded worried that she’s not hearing from me, wanted to go ahead and make plans for doing things with me soon, she’s missing me, she wants to talk to me. (Along with more lovey and invalidating things)

So a couple things are striking me. One is what my wife is up to. She barely noticed I was gone at first….of course….she was happily boinking this guy the whole time! She probably figured once she finished I’d be OK with it, let her come back to me, resume everything with me as if nothing had happened. Now she’s not got any lover to talk to (assuming she’s not in contact with him….I don’t know either way) She’s had a little time with my parents and a little time with a friend. Now she's housesitting in another town with no local friends. She’s probably feeling isolated and lonely. She probably has doubts, concerns, fears.

I’m still in a place where I don’t care. I'm focusing on myself.

I want to do good work on my boat. I want to spend time talking to my friends. I want to work through the crap that I need to work through. I want to re-form my life with things that I want and love in it. I’m finding myself caring a lot less about my marriage.

The recent txts/emails from my wife have me feeling pressured. She wants to talk to me. I’m aware of it. NOT doing something when she wants me to is still an uncomfortable feeling for me. I think I’ll sit with this one a bit longer.

I don't want to talk to her or contact her when I'm reacting. I still do a lot of reacting. For the last several days, when I'm almost done reacting and thinking about my response, I get another contact, and the process starts again.

This isn't even a problem for me! I'm aware that I will need to resolve conflicts with her someday. It isn't what I need to do today. I've got more important things to do for myself. I'll wait until I know I can be true to myself with her. Until I feel ready to resolve things with her.